Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi, for a period in the early day of mining, the Salt production was a royal monoploy. Salt was critical in the initial days of mining since they used the patio process which consisted in subjecting the finely ground ore to the action of sprinkled salt, etc., which reduced the precious metal to a Chloride, which in turn, easily allowed the final processing for smelting.

By controlling the salt production, the King crudely controlled the metal production, a sort of pre tax on production. Later, when Mercury deposits were discovered, he switched to control of the Mercury for the same reason.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[Oroblanco]

Thank you both for clarifying.

Don Jose' - I found a couple of old newspaper articles which confirm two anecdotes you have mentioned, including an abortive 'return of the Jesuits' which took place; will email them to you some evening (soon) unless you already have them.
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Oro de Tayopa: Looking forward to them. Is there a connection with the 'Cerro del Cura' at Tayopa? Where after years of solitary searching, he fell to his death while looking. Ironically he was only 3 - 400 meters from it.

Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigo,

No direct connection that I noticed, but perhaps a more careful read would discover it? I just sent off the two articles, the first tells about the Jesuits returning to look for their mines, the second one tells of emperor Maximilian's plan to re-locate and open Tayopa, including building a railroad to it, just as you had mentioned a while back.

Roy

 

[uthunter]

There were several styles of Spanish that was written ans spoken throughout history. Spanish as we know it morphed from Greek awhich was introduced into the Northern area of what is now Spain, and Latin. You have to take into account, the education of the writer, where they lived and were educated. The differences in how Spanish was written and spoken was quite different in the 1300's, the 1500's, the 1700's and even the 1800's. The Jesuits were all schooled in Latin, a very distinct type too, that was used for all church correspondence and services. many Spaniards were schooled in Latin as well, but not necessary the version used by the church. Latin went thru several different morphologies as time went by, the version used in the 1700's was very different in the version used in the 1300's. This was a continual process as new words were introduced from other languages or even regions of the same country.

When you translate a letter written in Spanish or Latin, the spelling may not be as expected, since most used to write phonetically, or the words were written with a blend of Spanish and Latin. Often times, letters and numbers were substituted with each other depending on where they fell in the word. The s, f, c, o, x, z, were substituted with each other, same as with the vowels: i with j, o with u, a with e, or vise versa. I have seen an 8 and a 7 substituted for the letter O and f respectively. Often this depended upon the accented syllable or placement of the letters. Old Spanish, Old Latin and; Old, Medieval, and Middle English, all did this. This practice was used up thru the 1800's and in some places still is. Also the number zero (0) and even the letter "O" were sometimes substituted with a "_". When the word contained an "s" at the beginning or end of the word, it was written as an "s", but when inside the word, an "f" was used.

Translating old letters or journals is not an exact science, different translators will use different words for the or tens of a word when translating.

Disclaimer:

I am not trying to offend anyone, or say that they don't know what they are doing, just trying to point a few things out that most people won't know. I sent a similar letter to someone by email, that asked about this, and I got a nasty reply. I even sent copies of pages from a journal and a letter to a mission by a priest as evidence.

I do not claim to be an expert, I admit I am far from it, I have only studied the ancient languages of Europe and the Middle East and how they affected new regions of the world.

 

[Treasure Seeker1312]

Good morning,

I believe in order for us to go forward a misnomer, or a misconception as to use of the word “mission” should be clarified. When referring to the "Jesuit mission," be it at Guevavi or else where, it is not specific to a "church," rather it is all encompassing to the entire effort. Such as the following: It was part of their mission at each mission site to teach Catechism to the Indians, it was part of their mission to setup a ranch and raise livestock, it was part of their mission to plant and harvest crops, and it was part of their mission to build a church at the chosen site for their mission. Therefore, it could be a misconception when one refers to something like "the Jesuits lost mission of Santa Isabel," which is claimed to be located in Baja, California. Most people automatically assume there is a church or a mission complex involved, which historian's such as Charles W. Polzer, S.J. claim no such mission ever existed. If the lost Jesuit mission of Santa Isabel does exist, then maybe it is nothing more than a site which was chosen and named Santa Isabel, and it was the Jesuits mission to hide their most valuable church treasures there in order to keep them out of the hands of the King of Spain. Or maybe its just another mission impossible!


Sincerely,

Infosponge

TS. Here : First I would like to thank everyone here on this forum who posted so many articles,maps, questions, possible answers. it has been very rewarding
As I have found out that alot of questions and answers lead to even more questions. speculations and answers. How inquisitive!.
First I would like to say I Have to agre with previous post from members on here.


1. The Molina Document is not an origional, but perhaps an account of a document read earlier by its author, and then re-wriiten , perhaps several times over by several people handed down through the generations.
2. A origional site was not a mission untill later, first it was an old adobe building with a dirt floor managed by someone other then the Franciscan monk or Jesuit Priest, because he was away teaching.However visited from time to time by other men of the cloth.
3. Although there has been controversey on here w
eather the Jesuits were involved in mining or not. Only raises the question where did they get the large amounts of cash needed to purchase things between the times they ran out of the money that the church provided them initially and the next stipened they would recieve from the church.
Remember the old country was far away and it took alot of time to get to the new world. Also the indians they taught were poor. So they
had to finance themselves somehow. This is why I believe if they were not involved in mining , they sure must have obtained the Gold and silver through offerings or perhaps involved somehow. This is only my belief and all though there is no evidence of such involvement. I believe that they were involved. once again this is only my belief.
4. Someone had made a comment on an earlier post that digging and poking around a historical site is not a good thing and can ruin things. To this I agree mostly, However I would say digging and poking have led to the historical findings of such places. remember alot of places have been covered up completly by the sands of time, and if it were not for poking and digging we would not know of there existance.
As to all who have posted on here will tell you Remember your surroundings and proceed with caution.
Thanks for letting me post 10/26/2010 T.S.

 

[Treasure Seeker1312]

Good morning,

I believe in order for us to go forward a misnomer, or a misconception as to use of the word “mission” should be clarified. When referring to the "Jesuit mission," be it at Guevavi or else where, it is not specific to a "church," rather it is all encompassing to the entire effort. Such as the following: It was part of their mission at each mission site to teach Catechism to the Indians, it was part of their mission to setup a ranch and raise livestock, it was part of their mission to plant and harvest crops, and it was part of their mission to build a church at the chosen site for their mission. Therefore, it could be a misconception when one refers to something like "the Jesuits lost mission of Santa Isabel," which is claimed to be located in Baja, California. Most people automatically assume there is a church or a mission complex involved, which historian's such as Charles W. Polzer, S.J. claim no such mission ever existed. If the lost Jesuit mission of Santa Isabel does exist, then maybe it is nothing more than a site which was chosen and named Santa Isabel, and it was the Jesuits mission to hide their most valuable church treasures there in order to keep them out of the hands of the King of Spain. Or maybe its just another mission impossible!


Sincerely,

Infosponge

TS. Here : First I would like to thank everyone here on this forum who posted so many articles,maps, questions, possible answers. it has been very rewarding
As I have found out that alot of questions and answers lead to even more questions. speculations and answers. How inquisitive!.
First I would like to say I Have to agree with previous post from members on here.


1. The Molina Document is not an origional, but perhaps an account of a document read earlier by its author, and then re-wriiten , perhaps several times over by several people handed down through the generations.
2. A origional site was not a mission untill later, first it was an old adobe building with a dirt floor managed by someone other then the Franciscan monk or Jesuit Priest, because he was away teaching.However visited from time to time by other men of the cloth.
3. Although there has been controversey on here weather the Jesuits were involved in mining or not. Only raises the question where did they get the large amounts of cash needed to purchase things between the times they ran out of the money that the church provided them initially and the next stipened they would recieve from the church.
Remember the old country was far away and it took alot of time to get to the new world. Also the indians they taught were poor. So they
had to finance themselves somehow. This is why I believe if they were not involved in mining , they sure must have obtained the Gold and silver through offerings or perhaps involved somehow. This is only my belief and all though there is no evidence of such involvement. I believe that they were involved. once again this is only my belief.
4. Someone had made a comment on an earlier post that digging and poking around a historical site is not a good thing and can ruin things. To this I agree mostly, However I would say digging and poking have led to the historical findings of such places. remember alot of places have been covered up completly by the sands of time, and if it were not for poking and digging we would not know of there existance.
As to all who have posted on here will tell you Remember your surroundings and proceed with caution.
Thanks for letting me post 10/26/2010 T.S.

 

[uthunter]

Oroblanco stated...

Quote
Exquemelin's version may be online too but I can't find it.

I found this version on www.archive.org, there are 20 links to texts with "Exquemelin" in the search box and using "Text" as the media type.

http://www.archive.org/details/buccaneersmaroon00exqu
Exquemelin, A. O. (Alexandre Olivier)
Editor's introduction -- The translator to the reader (of 1684) -- The history of the buccaneers of America [by Alexandre Olivier Exquemelin] -- A genuine account of four notorious pirates [by Charles Johnson] of four notorious pirates: Captain Teach . Captain William Kidd. Captain Bartholomew Roberts and his crew. Captain Avery and his crew

This is in .pdf form, but there are other formats available as well.

On a different subject, tho related dirrectly to what is being discussed in this thread.

The Jesuits were all trained in the church run universities, most were from various parts in Europe in the period of the 1300' (and before) thru the mid 1800's. Several members of the site have argued that the Jesuits were pious and followed the church laws without waiver. If this is the case, then WHY is there so many mission records, letters between the missions and the church in Rome itself, in Spanish. If my research is correct, then the Pope around the late 1300's stated that ALL business concerning the church be in the language of the church which is Latin. This policy as far as I have been able to find, has never been recanted. If the missions belonged to the church, then all records of the mission should be in Latin. The Sister Molina document should not be a result of a true copy of the original document. Since the original document should have been in Latin, and few if any nuns of the church, irregardless of where they were stationed, were not taught Latin as part of their training. Sister Molina would never have been able to translate the letter from Latin to Spanish as she copied it.

If she was able to translate it, then she may have not been that proliferate in writing, so the writing could have been in a printed version of Spanish. In as far as my research, I have not been able to confirm that she even existed let alone in the time period attributed to her (I could be wrong as I am not able to access the archive(s) as to where she would have been stationed). According to my research, the poor families, or even those of the upper class at that time period did not send their daughters off to the finest schools to learn literacy or the fine languages at that time (I know that there are exceptions to this statement), especially of they were to serve as a nun in the church.

In my humble opinion, the fact that there are mission records and correspondence by the Jesuits between the missions and the church in Rome, that are in Spanish, shows that the Jesuits did not always follow the rules set forth by Rome or Spain.

 

[gollum]

Hey UTH,

Could you please site the document that required all Church Business be conducted in Latin? I ask because I have a copy of Father Charles Polzer SJ's Book "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions in Northwestern New Spain." It details all the rules and Ecclesiastical Precepts the Jesuits were required to follow, and nowhere in there does it state anything like that.

I know that as a general rule the Church did conduct most of its' internal business in Latin, but I am unaware of any Church Law or Regulation requiring that. To the best of my knowledge the only reason they commonly used Latin was because there were Missions, Churches, and Priests all over the world and the easiest way for them all to communicate was via a language they were all required to learn to conduct mass. Correspondence that would never leave a given area could be written in the language of that area.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

RWLJ I would like to ask you a question here, not to interrupt you but I am curious. If you don't mind my asking, where do you say the Pass of Janos is located, exactly? Thank you in advance.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

RWLJ,

If you are digging in the Coronado National Forest, I certainly hope you have received permission to dig and a Treasure Trove Permit?!?

If not, then my question is simple: If you think you have found the Guadalupe Mine which is the storehouse for the Tumacacori Treasure, WHY IN GOD'S NAME ARE YOU POSTING IT ON A WEBSITE?

Really, unless you have the place sewn up legally, you should not be putting a lot of info online.

On the other hand, if you are in this to look important to people you will never meet, then by all means go right ahead! HAHAHA

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

RWLJ,

If you are digging in the Coronado National Forest, I certainly hope you have received permission to dig and a Treasure Trove Permit?!?

If not, then my question is simple: If you think you have found the Guadalupe Mine which is the storehouse for the Tumacacori Treasure, WHY IN GOD'S NAME ARE YOU POSTING IT ON A WEBSITE?

Really, unless you have the place sewn up legally, you should not be putting a lot of info online.

On the other hand, if you are in this to look important to people you will never meet, then by all means go right ahead! HAHAHA

Best-Mike

Mike dang it SHHHH! Don't listen to him RWLJ, you can sure trust me not to sneak into your sites and dig all that silver and gold out. <not!>
Roy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO Rwl: You have my undivided attention. Post away, ignore those two igerent other posters, I have my recorder on. where is La Tayopa ??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[RWLJ]

9-14-11
Oroblanco
I was not about to identify the place that the Tumacacori document identifies or calls Janos Pass. I think Mike is right about posting certain information. I am definitely not talking about the Jonas pass that is between Agua Puerta and Casas Grande, Chihuahua. The fugitive that rewrote or had the document rewrote, used names of other places to throw people way off the track, but cleverly incorporated the characteristics of other places to tell a story that could be recognized by those who he wanted to find the place without betraying Indians or family members.
If I had not of read his diaries and confessions many years ago, along with a lot of background that surrounded his history, I would not have recognized who that mystery man was that showed up in Arizona, who had been in Northern Mexico, who passed himself off as Jacob Waltz. When you know his history then you will understand that he came real close to identifying himself through his wife Micaela Molina, when he used the name Juan de Dios de Molino, this identifies his name in part as well as the type of work he did and who he considered he was doing it for. Juan, Jacob or Jack are different ways of saying the same name. He truly was a Jacob that waltzed around the country staying out of sight of the law.
I guess I am a little bit like he was, in this respect, I am willing to give you clues and if you are inspired by the greater truth of life and will put the truth first by sacrificing for it, it will reveal a straight path for those that will respect the wishes of those that placed the treasures and hid up the mines. If I was to tell you the whole story, I might be abetting to the corrupt powers that exist from the top to the bottom. I have had a lot of fun, it has been very interesting for me to crack and solve mysteries, I have really enjoyed listening to your comments, along with Joe’s and Mike’s and others for a long time. I have listened to arguments between different sides which has helped me in my own research and I am really grateful for all of you and your different viewpoints.
The discoveries that I may have made did not come about or start from looking for treasures, I was given a couple of books by those who figured I could help them crack the mysteries and lead them to mines and treasures, due to the fact a professor from a university had told them that I could read petroglyphs and had understanding of ancient history of the southwest unlike anyone else. There are hundreds that know me that would vouch for the same. So when I read the books it identified things that I was already familiar with and I believed right then that it would be foolish if I did not investigate things, believing I had hotter leads than anyone else out there in connection with certain mines and treasures that were supposed to be buried in a place the Indians held sacred. With my background in researching past history of the Americas and its ancient writings I already knew the original names or older names of many places.
There is over 300 petroglyphs carved in stone, and some of them go back over 2,000 years, that identifies the Santa Cruz River and the mines close by. The old symbols for gold and silver on both sides of the world was the sun and moon. So when you see petroglyphs representing the sun and moon with the holy cross, when you read the hand writing on the wall and realize that the Jesuits called it the Santa Cruz River because the Indians had called it the same for thousands of years but in their language, just remember the wealth was placed in areas that was very sacred to many different peoples going back to the times of the Book of Genesis, which is what Janos means. The Janos people were named after that place.
The mines of that place and its wealth cannot be used for personal profit, and the institution that owns the land that these mines are on is dedicated to helping all the people that are interested in contributing to and establishing a better world. The place of the Four Rivers that the Aztec Calendar talks about, that some scholars used to think was in the Phoenix area, is northwest of Janos Pass. This Janos pass of Genesis will lead you to the four rivers of Eden. I just gave you a few clues that won’t be of much help unless you can read the Aztec Calendar or understand the Biblical history of Genesis and its language. Janos Pass is in an area that is surrounded by a lot of petroglyphs that are written in Paleo-Hebrew and older Hebrew writings that are beginning to be recognized by some scholars.
Eight generations back my great grandfather started out being a Jesuit Priest. There were a group of Jesuits that recognized through their research with the Indians that the Indians history was more accurate when it came to the locations of where the Book of Genesis fit. This group took their treasures to that place. And I am sure their belief in Indian history establishes a strong bond with certain Indians. These Jesuits I believe found themselves somewhat separated from the Jesuits that hung on to Dark Age assumptions and that had a false slant on Biblical history. I believe that for the bigger part these Jesuits did not share all their working and doings with the main body of Jesuits who were loyal to the Popes and Kings. I believe that this secret order of Jesuits named a number of places after their secret places so that it would confuse those that were not valiant in seeking the truth.
Now I have a question for you Oroblanco. Why would Pedro Nevarez, known As El Chato, take stuff and hide it in the place where the Jesuits were working mines and had left treasures and cleverly camouflage or hide the place using language that is true knowing that the people would misread or misinterpret other places which weren’t the places he was talking about, and not find the right places he talked about? A second question. Was he a Francis Drake to a secret order of Jesuits that were trying to establish liberty and freedom as Elizabeth was trying to establish independence from Spain and other nations? Maybe you and all the rest of you who are into Jesuit history could bring some clarity where there is still a lot of fog in my mind as to why Pedro Nevarez was taking the wealth from priests and placing it in the same place that the so-called Peralta Stones and Guadalupe Documents take you to and describe. And anything you can contribute I will be even more grateful for than the gratitude I already feel for you guys.
RW

 

[RWLJ]

9-14-11
Mike
I am not digging in Coronado’s National Forest. Your advice was excellent. I thought my intention was to help people to understand more of the truth and more wisely pursue things that are within their reach. There are too many good things that have a credible foundation to work on that can be real interesting.
Thank you.
You said it well.
RW

 

[RWLJ]

9-14-11
Roy
I have made a lot of discoveries that eventually will benefit the world. One of them is I have found the Hopi Underworld or what the Pueblo Indians call the Cave of their Ancestors. The world will be shocked when they see what is at the place that the Hopi historical trails take you to. What is there is worth many times more than what is at the Tumacacori or Guadalupe Mine. All that place takes to reopen it up, having many years ago sealed its entrance, is enough good men with the right influence to open it up and protect and properly deal with what is there. These sites have been waiting for a long time to come forth, and they will come forth when there is enough people that can stand for the rights of their neighbors, which in turn will protect them in their rights. There is much information I would be happy to share with you.
RW

 

[RWLJ]

9-14-11
Don Jose de La Mancha
You ask “Where is La Tayopa”. At Palenque Mexico there is a big cross cut in stone showing the Bird of Paradise at the top of it and a Bull Head at the bottom of it. In the horns of the Bull is a fire pit, that fire pit represents a pot or a crater in the top of a small volcano that pushed out of the earth with the characteristics of a bull, the top of that pot makes a ring like an O, from that runs a narrow valley with a stream of water flowing through it, which is what PA represents, that valley and fault line has a river cutting across it, the two together makes a Large Ta shaped Cross, Ta in ancient times represented the cross and the root symbol for A is a Bulls Head which represents Alpha the place of Beginning, so at Palenque you have the T cross above the A or the Bull where today in our writing, the A follows after the T, Tayopa is the land in the area of the first and second river that comes out of Eden the place of beginning. The Book of Genesis says there is good gold in that land.
Workers in recent years, of a mine near that area, claimed that the company they worked for took out one gold nugget that was more than sixteen inches in diameter. You will feel better in behalf of yourself if you look and follow Spanish history where it says it was once widely claimed there was silver at the Blue Mountains and near them was mercury. When you go ten days travel in the right direction from the Hopi’s, according to the Spanish history you will find the Blue Mountains and the old silver mines, you go north of the Blue Mountains and you will find a cinnabar or Mercury Mine. Tayopa is on the east side of them Blue mountains, and the mines are in the lands of Tayopa, which is identified and written in stone in pre-Columbian times, which are reliable. The Don on the so-called Peralta Stones represents this place of Dawn, and the big Cross on the so-called Peralta Stones represents the place of Ta, or Tayopa. The proper value for truth and breaking away from old traditions will take you there. I wish you and all the rest the best. But you and they are the only ones that can make that happen.
RW

 

[cactusjumper]

RW,

Your abilities to read Native American Pictographs sounds impressive. Have you had formal training, or did you pick it up on your own. I have had a casual interest in the subject for many years.

Can you give us a general idea of what the following pictograph is saying?

Any part would be fine. Perhaps just the date that is recorded on it.

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

RWLJ wrote

Now I have a question for you Oroblanco. Why would Pedro Nevarez, known As El Chato, take stuff and hide it in the place where the Jesuits were working mines and had left treasures and cleverly camouflage or hide the place using language that is true knowing that the people would misread or misinterpret other places which weren’t the places he was talking about, and not find the right places he talked about?

My answer would be pure speculation as I do not know that Narvaez (I presume that is the Spanish explorer you are referring to?) had discovered any treasures to hide. As his disastrous expedition was in the early 1500's, there were no Jesuits then in Arizona or in Mexico for that matter so I cannot come up with a good explanation to your question.

RWLJ also wrote

A second question. Was he a Francis Drake to a secret order of Jesuits that were trying to establish liberty and freedom as Elizabeth was trying to establish independence from Spain and other nations?

Narvaez passed away in 1528 and the Jesuit Order was founded in 1534 six years later, so it is not possible that he was a member of a secret order of the Society of Jesus. If he were a secret member of any religious Order, I have never found any trace of it.

RWLJ also wrote

Roy
I have made a lot of discoveries that eventually will benefit the world. One of them is I have found the Hopi Underworld or what the Pueblo Indians call the Cave of their Ancestors. The world will be shocked when they see what is at the place that the Hopi historical trails take you to. What is there is worth many times more than what is at the Tumacacori or Guadalupe Mine. All that place takes to reopen it up, having many years ago sealed its entrance, is enough good men with the right influence to open it up and protect and properly deal with what is there. These sites have been waiting for a long time to come forth, and they will come forth when there is enough people that can stand for the rights of their neighbors, which in turn will protect them in their rights. There is much information I would be happy to share with you.
RW

I am a simple treasure hunter, really a prospector at heart; my goals are far more simple than yours clearly. What historical treasure may hold unmeasurable value in your eyes, while valuable to me as well, is not really what I am after. I would love to hear <read> more of what you have learned, just didn't want to mislead you about my own motives which are entirely selfish and profit motivated. If there were no cash profits to be made, I would not pursue a particular lost treasure as I am not so wealthy as to be financially independent and thus able to pursue such interests solely for the historic or wisdom type of values.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe de la casrne asada y cafe: there are tons of sites on Mayan data, for example --> http://www2.iath.virginia.edu/med/docs/_050100.html

Don Jose d eLa Mancha

p.s "Joe de la carne asada y cafe = Joe of the grilled meat and coffee----