Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"I am sure that Lamar would take exception to that statement, and it isn't really part of our topic, as you stated "This topic is supposed to be about Jesuit involvement in mining and Jesuit treasures.......as far as I know."

Without their Native American "slave labor", there could be no Jesuit treasure. For a great read on how the Native Americans were actually decimated, I would highly recommend "Guns, Germs, and Steel", by Jared Diamond. Chapter 11 is aptly titled: "Lethal Gift Of Livestock".

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Oroblanco]

Well I have no doubt that Diamond will have a different slant on that feature of history, and it will likely be interesting.

Just to augment the allegations of Jesuit mining and ore processing at both Guevavi and Tumacacori (as at Matape, Tecoripa etc) consider this;

There are traditional stories but entirely unsupported by documentary evidence that during this time the friars and Indians worked rich mines in the neighborhood out of the proceeds of which they were not only able to build their church but to furnish it with the most costly ornaments. The amount of gold that is said to have been used about the altar is extravagant beyond credence. It is much more probable that the church and its beautiful decorations were the fruit of the pious zeal and patient labors of these artless children of the desert. There was plenty of precious metal in the neighborhood however and it may be that some of it was discovered and mined.

<Records of the American Catholic Historical Society of Philadelphia, Volume 5 By American Catholic Historical Society of Philadelphia, 1894 pp 410>

So even the Catholic historical society was willing to admit of the possibility, however doubtful, that some precious metal may have been discovered and mined.

This same source also gave the names of the two Jesuits who returned to Bac in 1863-4; father J P Macheboeuf and father C. Mesea, SJ; the incident reported elsewhere in which the Pimas brought various silver and gold ornaments out of hiding to adorn the church for the returning padres.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[Just to augment the allegations of Jesuit mining and ore processing at both Guevavi and Tumacacori (as at Matape, Tecoripa etc) consider this;


Quote
There are traditional stories but entirely unsupported by documentary evidence that during this time the friars and Indians worked rich mines in the neighborhood out of the proceeds of which they were not only able to build their church but to furnish it with the most costly ornaments. The amount of gold that is said to have been used about the altar is extravagant beyond credence. It is much more probable that the church and its beautiful decorations were the fruit of the pious zeal and patient labors of these artless children of the desert. There was plenty of precious metal in the neighborhood however and it may be that some of it was discovered and mined.
<Records of the American Catholic Historical Society of Philadelphia, Volume 5 By American Catholic Historical Society of Philadelphia, 1894 pp 410>]
__________________________________________

I don't see how any of that applies to the Jesuits, and especially those that were there at earlier dates. Everything that you have quoted, other than your opening statement, deals with the Franciscans and their churches.

If you are addressing me, let me repeat.......I am aware that some Jesuits may have been involved, in some manner, with mining. It seems to me that those few cases which can be documented, do not account for the treasures that are being alleged.

Once again, let me concede that the Jesuits would, when they could, hide the church "ornaments"......etc. in times of trouble with the Native Americans. If you believe that equates to stacks of gold bars and chests of precious jewels, quien sabe?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HMMMMM with all of this pro & con data on the Jesuits, no one saw fit to mention that yesterday was the anniversary in which they were rounded up in Mexico. Sigh. Mexico commemorates it.

Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

When you say " Mexico commemorates it", what exactly does that mean? Is there a celebration or holiday?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Infosponge]

Good afternoon,

"Tomas Tello of Caborca, and yes Lamar at one point denied there ever was such a person as a member of the Society. In fact he asked for proof, and I don't happen to have his birth certificate and official profession of faith in my pocket, so I just take it on the faith of the historical record that Tomas Tello did in fact exist and was a priest in the Jesuit order."

“Do you mean Padre Diego Tello SJ or Padre Thomas Tello SJ?

Diego came first in the mid 1600s, and Thomas was killed with Padre Ruhen SJ in 1751 at Caborca. Who could say he didn't exist?

Mike”

There was at least one other member of the Company of Jesus named “Juan Ildefonso Tello,” he is listed in the “The Catalogue of the Company of Jesus from The Province of Mexico that were arrested June 25, 1767.” By Rafel of Zelis. The list is quite extensive and includes coadjutors, students, etc.





Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[cactusjumper]

infosponge,

[There was at least one other member of the Company of Jesus named “Juan Ildefonso Tello,” he is listed in the “The Catalogue of the Company of Jesus from The Province of Mexico that were arrested June 25, 1767.” By Rafel of Zelis. The list is quite extensive and includes coadjutors, students, etc]

So the "coadjutors" were also arrested.

Who would have thunk it?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

So we have conflicting dates eh? He hehe typical.

Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*

 

[Infosponge]

Howdy Don Jose,

"HMMMMM with all of this pro & con data on the Jesuits, no one saw fit to mention that yesterday was the anniversary in which they were rounded up in Mexico. Sigh. Mexico commemorates it."

Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*

All of written history tells the arrest orders were not opened up and read until the 24th of June, 1767, and the first arrests were made in Mexico City, in the early morning of the 25th of June, 1767. Here is the account from the book titled "Missionary in Sonora" The Travel Reports of Joseph Och, S.J.



The 25th of June is not only the anniversary of the arrest of the Jesuits, it is also the anniversary for the beginning of the search for their treasure! Be it imagined or otherwise.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
At the risk of alienating everyone reading this, yes it is another extremely long post; I would ask your indulgence but for anyone who does not wish to wade through such a long post, just skip ahead and I won't be offended.

Cactusjumper wrote

Without their Native American "slave labor", there could be no Jesuit treasure. For a great read on how the Native Americans were actually decimated, I would highly recommend "Guns, Germs, and Steel", by Jared Diamond. Chapter 11 is aptly titled: "Lethal Gift Of Livestock".

It is debatable whether the Jesuits could have accumulated any 'treasure' without the use of forced labor and <literal> slaves brought from Africa; their other businesses were a dazzling array of different undertakings from banking and lending, to landlords (rental incomes) almost any sort of business that existed in colonial times you can find a Jesuit example of. Then there are the gifts and endowments, which could be sizable. Individually, I have no doubt that any particular Jesuit priest or brother could be literally dirt-poor, but this was not the case with the Order.

Cactusjumper also wrote

There was plenty of precious metal in the neighborhood however and it may be that some of it was discovered and mined.

If you note in my post where I used that extract, I stated,
So even the Catholic historical society was willing to admit of the possibility, however doubtful, that some precious metal may have been discovered and mined.

Not that they openly admitted it, but they granted that it was POSSIBLE. That is a major concession for the Catholic sources, when virtually all Jesuit sources deny all allegations of mining AND treasures outright. I don't think San Xavier del Bac was a mining center at any time.

Cactusjumper also wrote

I don't see how any of that applies to the Jesuits, and especially those that were there at earlier dates. Everything that you have quoted, other than your opening statement, deals with the Franciscans and their churches.

If you have read that chapter, it is all about Jesuit history of San Xavier del Bac, with only a passing mention of the Franciscan period. I will come back to this in a moment.

Cactusjumper also wrote

If you are addressing me, let me repeat.......I am aware that some Jesuits may have been involved, in some manner, with mining. It seems to me that those few cases which can be documented, do not account for the treasures that are being alleged.

How are you quantifying the "treasures that are being alleged"? By the description of some $40,000 in silver, adorning the altar at Bac? At least some of the beautiful and costly ornaments at Bac, were brought from Tumacacori. To me, and I am sure to many other treasure hunters, that $40k <or over $600,000 today> would be quite a treasure. As the price of silver in the early 1800's was at $1 per ounce, we are talking about 40,000 ounces of silver just on the altar. The Jesuits (and other Orders) were operating mines in Mexico, including in Sonora; these mines produced gold, silver (especially) and copper; so where did that output go? The Spanish royal authorities stated that all of the Orders were heavily involved in the contraband trade with the English and Dutch, ,<see Royal Cedula dated Feb 2nd, 1730, Fondo Luis Guitierrez Canedo, Reales Codulas I, Carpeta 5-9, document 239, cited in "Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico, mentioned earlier> Are you citing the vast amounts listed in the Molina document? Why should that amount (as astonishing as it is) be incredible as an output from a group of mines, worked over a period of years (we do not know how and when the metals output was being shipped out) and probably accumulated for shipment when it would be possible to do so without being caught? Clearly, the mines being worked prior to 1768 were doing so quite "under the radar" and not openly as the others we can document, is it logical to suppose that their output would then be openly transported south to ship out on Spanish ships?

Side note but that 'handful of cases' which show documented Jesuit ownership (and operation) of mines in Mexico, except for the college of Leon which only owned one mine I can find, the Jesuit California Mission fund owned mines (plural) the Jesuit college of Zacatecas owned mines (plural) and the Jesuit college of San Jose owned mines (plural) so it is more than a rare thing, not sure I would quantify them as a "handful". This story of illicit Jesuit mining in Pimeria Alta (and even outside that area) fits a pattern of Jesuit activity elsewhere in the New World.

Are you saying that the silver mines from which this silver originated (as alleged) were not discovered and worked until the Franciscans arrived? The silver mines in the Santa Ritas, were described as long-abandoned when the Robles expedition found them in 1817. The mines around Arivaca were shut down in 1767, and not re-started for some time. The populations of the various Jesuit missions in Pimeria Alta were very largely Indians, not Spaniards or even mestizo. Perhaps we ought to pin some dates here? I keep getting the impression that you (Joe) are taking the claims of Jesuit mining/treasure as being directly linked to the arrival of Kino, which will not fit the evidence.

1687 Father Kino (or Kuhn) arrives in Pimeria and begins his career of exploration and founding of missions there. These buildings (except perhaps Dolores and Bac) were of earthen construction and liable to deteriorate.

1711 Father Kino dies, his missions fall into disrepair

1725 Bishop Crespo (or Crespi) visits Arizona missions and sends full description to the king; it is during this visit that the incident occurred in which the bishop complained about the lack of salt cellars, and the "brothers" immediately set to find a silver deposit and cast a pair of large heavy silver salt cellars; this mine is named "Salero". I doubt that any remarkable silver or gold mines had been discovered or worked by the Jesuits prior to this date;

1730 The Planchas de Plata (or Bolos de Plata) silver placer is discovered, resulting in a "rush" of Spanish prospectors to that district; The Indian discoverer is dispossessed of the mine. The fame of this discovery reaches all the way to Europe.
*All Orders in Mexico believed by Royal authorities to be deeply involved in illicit contraband trade; The silver rush of Spaniards only lasts a few years however when the surface deposits played out quickly, leaving Pimeria Alta to the Jesuits.

1751 the Pimas rebel, resulting in several of the missions being abandoned by the Indians for several years including Tumacacori and Guevavi, but not Bac. It is probable that the mines were shut down at this time

1764 Nentig publishes "Rudo Ensayo" in which he states there are several silver mines and one gold mine in the vicinity of Guevavi, which are not being worked. He describes the mission churches at this time; <this has been posted several times, but the DATE is the key to consider>

All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well.

<Nentvig, Rudo Ensayo> *This is how they appeared in 1764, not 1697 or 1711; it would be a thin case to try to say this is how the churches were adorned when Kino was building them.

1767 Jesuits expelled; father Och described the cathedral church in Puebla as having an exceedingly rich treasure in its gold and silver church appointments, writing from memory.

1768 Franciscans arrive

1772 Bishop Reyes visits Tumacacori (and other mission) his description is interesting;

In this village they have a church and house for the Missionary devoid of all ornament and furnishing.

* So, in 1764, all the missions including visitas were richly ornamented, but by 1772 it had largely vanished. Hmm, so what changed, other than Jesuits left and Franciscans arrived?

1773 Guevavi permanently abandoned, Tumacacori raised to main mission

1774 Anza reports that Arivaca pueblo has been abandoned since 1751 revolt

1776, <May 24> Don Felipe Velderrain reports that the Apaches had carried away everything of value from Tumacacori, nothing remained.

1817 Robles expedition to the Santa Ritas, reports old mines long abandoned & extreme danger from hostile Apaches *This could well be when the location of the Salero mine became known to the Franciscans, so it is logical that they re-opened it soon after.

1827 Franciscans expelled

So if you are attributing the mining and ore processing to the Franciscans, when did it start, when did it end, and whom had been mining in the Santa Ritas before 1817? Why did the mines around Arivaca shut down in 1767? There was no Pima rebellion that year, and no serious Apache raids either.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Once again, let me concede that the Jesuits would, when they could, hide the church "ornaments"......etc. in times of trouble with the Native Americans. If you believe that equates to stacks of gold bars and chests of precious jewels, quien sabe?

My paragraph earlier addresses this in part; that the ornaments do in fact amount to a sizable, valuable treasure and would be well worth finding today. As for the stacks of gold bars (and silver) we have only scattered reports as to what happened to some of it; but it is logical that precious metals produced beyond what was used to ornament the churches and visitas would be cast into some form which could then be shipped. When you consider that one mine might produce a great deal of silver (especially when the ore is rich in character) the amount produced over years of operation can be staggering - for example, for just ONE mine in the Alamos district (Sonora) the Quintera mine, by the record produced some 48 million ounces of silver; true this one has a long history from the colonial days but it was not in operation in 1910 when that figure was published. (Mining & Engineering World, vol 32, pp 220-221) Now consider what a group of mines could produce, over say three years time, if accumulated?

I can't address any "chests of precious jewels" other than to say that it is not impossible, considering the impressive business in which the Jesuits were involved in the Philippines and Asia, of which much of the missionary effort in our southwest was done with an eye to support that trade by providing ports of call and safety for the Manila galleons as well as the ships owned and leased by the Jesuits themselves. So yes it is possible there could be chests of pearls, chests of emeralds and rubies from the Golden Triangle, even ivory from Africa. As I have no sources that directly mention these chests of precious jewels being present in Pimera Alta, it is pure speculation for me as to their existence. I have no doubt that bars of precious metals were in fact produced, and most probably were secreted for smuggling out of the country when feasible.

As the dates on the Molina document appear to be far too early for our timeline, <1598 to 1658> consider this;

The Jesuit mission program began in the 1590s in the Pimeria Alta, which included Sonora

<Mission Archaeology - Annual Review of Anthropology, 27(1):25 by E Graham - 1998>
...the Jesuits were active in Sonora from an early day, and much of that early activity is not well documented.

If it seems that I am expending a LOT of words and time on this subject, it is due to my being long-winded, that I value your friendship and your opinion, and am making every effort to sway your opinion. It is also a rather sore point, for we have a number of modern historians whom not only criticize articles and books on Jesuit lost mines and treasures (of which I am an author of, articles anyway) but even ridicule them and the treasure hunters who seek them. These "legends" are NOT based on barroom tales spun by drunken prospectors, nor on vicious attacks by enemies of the Jesuits. <Anyone who criticizes the Jesuits apparently is classed by them as "enemies" so I have little doubt as to where I would stand> so, as we know that our discussions here and in other threads on much the same topic are rather widely read, <over 11,000 hits, which can't be just those of us whom are actively posting> I have been taking advantage of this readership to present the "prosecution" case against the Jesuits, and to show that our "legends" are based on reality. To a treasure hunter it makes little difference if a lost treasure is Jesuit or Franciscan or Spanish, all have a deep historical impression on us, but I hope that our Jesuit apologists, the skeptics and historians whom have been ridiculing the very notion will take some notice of what has been presented. Anyway as much as I do value your opinion Joe, it will not hurt my feelings if you are not swayed and hold your trust in those same historians. They have got a lot right, after all. I will TRY to be much more brief in future, especially in this thread.

Side note but I hope you are not suffering with the heat there amigo, from what info I get, the temps have been triple digits for some time now. I hope you are staying close to the air-conditioner and fans, and are not trying to get outdoor work done in the heat of the day. It has been plenty hot here, can't imagine if it were 20 degrees hotter and trying to fix fences etc in the Sun.
Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Infosponge]

Good evening Oro,

“Are you citing the vast amounts listed in the Molina document? Why should that amount (as astonishing as it is) be incredible as an output from a group of mines, worked over a period of years”

Not incredible amounts at all according to Manje himself. Here is an excerpt from Eugene Bolton’s book titled “Rim of Christendom,” page 558.


I thought I would throw this in here also, Manje seems to back up those wild claims as to how richly adorned all the missions were. Here is the excerpt from the book titled “Luz De Tierra Incõgnita,” page 274.



Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[BILL96]

Info,
Just a quick question about the pages you posted from "Missionary in Sonara" I have read that book several times and a few things have always botherd me. On page 52, the one you posted, he states
"each man being provided with twenty five cartridges" were "cartridge" firearms in 1767?

Thanks,
Bill

 

[Infosponge]

Good morning Bill96,

Info,
Just a quick question about the pages you posted from "Missionary in Sonara" I have read that book several times and a few things have always botherd me. On page 52, the one you posted, he states
"each man being provided with twenty five cartridges" were "cartridge" firearms in 1767?

Good question! They indeed had cartridges for thier muskets, just not the type of cartridges we use today.

"The 18th century musket, as typified by the Brown Bess, was loaded and fired in the following way:

Upon the command "prime and load", the soldier would make a quarter turn to the right at the same time bringing the musket to the priming position. The pan would be open following the discharge of the previous shot, meaning that the frizzen would already be up.

Upon the command "Handle cartridge", the soldier would draw a cartridge. Cartridges consisted of a spherical lead bullet wrapped in a paper cartridge which also held the gunpowder propellant. The other end of the cartridge away from the ball would be sealed with a twist of paper. The soldier then ripped off the paper end of the cartridge with their teeth and spat it out, keeping the main end with the bullet in his right hand.

Upon the command "prime", the soldier then pulled the hammer back to half-cock and poured a small pinch of the powder from the cartridge into the priming pan. He then closed the frizzen so that the priming powder was trapped.

Upon the command "about", the butt of the musket was then dropped to the ground and the soldier poured the rest of the powder from the cartridge, followed by the ball and paper cartridge case into the barrel. This paper acted as wadding to stop the ball and powder from falling out if the muzzle was declined.

Upon the command "draw ramrods", the soldier drew his ramrod from below the barrel. First forcing it half out before seizing it backhanded in the middle, followed by drawing it entirely out simultaneously turning it to the front and placing it one inch into the barrel.

Upon the command "ram down the cartridge", he then used the ramrod to firmly ram the wadding, bullet, and powder down to the bottom followed by tamping it down with two quick strokes. The ramrod was then returned to its hoops under the barrel.

Upon the command "present", the butt was brought back up to the shoulder. The soldier pulled the hammer back and the musket was ready to fire, which he would do on hearing the command "fire".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Musket

Sincerely,

Infospnge

 

[Infosponge]

Good morning,

Here is a little tidbit from the book titled “Luz De Tierra Incõgnita,” pages 69 & 70.




And I quote "and from the parish of Father Francisco Javier de Mora. The Indians took all the mules, harness and silver they were carrying."

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[BILL96]

Info,
Thanks that explains it, also interesting "tidbit"

Bill

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening Bill, that dumb arse infrosponge , my extremely good buddy, forgot to mention that the paper cylinder holding the ball and powder was nitrated so that it was completely consumed upon firing and it also contributed a bit to the propelling charge. The paper wading was between the ball and the powder, it served as a seal.

It was greased for lubrication to help soften / relieve the hard residue from the black powder as well as to lower the amount of lead that was stripped off inside of the barrel upon firing - a process still known as leading..

Aux side thingie, this type of cartridge almost lost India for the English. As sponger mentioned, the rifleman had to bite off the paper twist, the enemy quickly spread the word that the lubricant was from pig fat. Since most of the infantrymen were of the Muslim religion it caused a revolt among the troops. Until it was replaced with verified no pig fat lubricant.

Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo* (and who consistently gets off subject hehheh)

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Another side issue. The Mule convoys made up in Alamos destined for Mexico city, often ran to 1000 mules at a time. each mule carried approx 45 kilos per side 45 kilos = #90.

It cannot be over emphasized just how important mules were in those days, nor the amount of metal mined and smelted.. The Quintera mine in Alamos, that sponger mentioned, was owned by Almada. He was famous for laying a path of silver bars from his house in the plaza to the Church for her wedding.

Part of his wedding gift to her was a magnificent set of formal dishes custom made in Limoges, France. I have part of them.

I have tons of interesting stories on this man and his intrigues, intrigues were popular in the Jesuit times. Some day on another forum?


Don Jose de La Mancha el *Tropical Trampo*

 

[Oroblanco]

Infosponge wrote

And I quote "and from the parish of Father Francisco Javier de Mora. The Indians took all the mules, harness and silver they were carrying."
Sincerely,

Infosponge

That is interesting! Most modern sources state that Indians had no use for gold or silver, yet there are documented cases where Indians took both; here in my 'backyard' a famous chief even robbed a stagecoach of a shipment of gold, and bragged about it to his dying day - though that gold never did turn up. Indians were not stupid!

I also wonder whose silver that was? Was it "Church property"? I only found a single incident in which Jesuit silver and gold was involved in a pirate attack on a ship, and the Spanish successfully defended it (a Captain Peralta, in fact) so I have to suspect that some shipments did not need to be smuggled, especially if in the form of bells, candlesticks etc.

Don Jose wrote

The Quintera mine in Alamos, that sponger mentioned, was owned by Almada. He was famous for laying a path of silver bars from his house in the plaza to the Church for her wedding.

Part of his wedding gift to her was a magnificent set of formal dishes custom made in Limoges, France. I have part of them.

I have tons of interesting stories on this man and his intrigues, intrigues were popular in the Jesuit times. Some day on another forum?

I hope you will expound on this amigo, and look forward to reading more!

The fact that the Spanish royal authorities found little actual cash treasure on the round up of the Jesuits has been pointed to as proof the Society never had any; the actual roundup and arrest as described by a Jesuit makes it sound as if it were a modern "sting" operation, and almost comical in the search procedures; this may well be true at Mexico city and perhaps other places, but it was definitely not the case all over Mexico. I was looking for a particular incident in which the resident Jesuit in a Baja mission actually marched out to greet the Spanish coming to arrest him, and found an interesting description of the events at several other areas in Mexico. Rather than make this post extremely long, here is the link to the relevant chapter;

http://books.google.com/books?id=aJ...lsion california&pg=PA210#v=onepage&q&f=false

<extract>
3 Disturbances at San Luis de la Paz The first objective point of Galvez was San Luis de la Paz which is northeast of Guanajuato near the eastern boundary of the modern state of that name. The commissioners of the expulsion had been driven out of San Luis de la Paz on June 25 without having executed their orders. Again on the night of the 7th of July riots occurred when the alcalde mayor attempted to take the Jesuits from their college. When they heard of the approach of Galvez with troops the Fathers fled while he was yet two days distant this was about the middle of July. The leaders of the riots were caught and given summary trials by the visitor who sat as a military judge in his capacity as intendant of the army. On July 20 four ringleaders of the tumults were executed two others being whipped and exiled.

and another
At San Francisco ten leagues from Potosi the Indians had been encouraged to revolt by a Jesuit who was acting as parish priest. The cause of disaffection was the organization of militia and the consequent collection of taxes. The priest Galvez turned over to the bishop of Michoacan for punishment. The bishop exculpated the Jesuit on the score of insanity but Galvez sent him to Mexico with the recommendation that he be sent to Spain for trial.

<title>
José de Gálvez: visitor-general of New Spain(1765-1771) By Herbert Ingram Priestley, University of California (System), University of California (1868-1952)

...just thought you might find it interesting, I plan to download the full book shortly. I wonder if this padre is the same one mentioned earlier that "went insane" - a poor excuse in my opinion, but in those days it probably would suffice.
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"I also wonder whose silver that was? Was it "Church property"? I only found a single incident in which Jesuit silver and gold was involved in a pirate attack on a ship, and the Spanish successfully defended it (a Captain Peralta, in fact) so I have to suspect that some shipments did not need to be smuggled, especially if in the form of bells, candlesticks etc."

Very interesting! I would be interested in knowing two things: What was your source, if you can say, and.......Which way was the ship going, to Spain or to New Spain? The King often provided those kinds of items to new missions.

Thanks,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

The King didn't actually provide anything but money for new missions. In some cases as much as 3,000 pesos per year to get them started.

Best-Mike