Tumacacori Mission Mines RE: Sister Micaela Molina Document

[gollum]

Roy,

You said:

This is not intended as a defense for a book I have never read, but the title doesn't say "Pimas, Dead Jesuit padres, and Gold" rather it is generic for the Order of the priests, all would be "Padres" right?

To be fair, the book is ALL about Jesuits. The entire premise of the book is about Jesuit Missions being waystations for muletrains of silver and gold being shipped to Baja to be loaded onto Manila Galleons. Also about Spanish Military and Civilians plotting with Luis of Saric to foment the Pima Revolt of 1751 as a cover for stealing the Jesuit Loot.

Also, if they were Franciscans, the title would be "Pimas, Dead Frays, and Gold." HAHAHA

Best-Mike

 

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[Infosponge]

Good morning,

Cactusjumper,

"Anyone have an opinion?"

You should know by now, everyone has an opinion! Even me, myself, and I, so here we go with our opinion.

First off, for those who have not read the book it will help to read the following from the book titled "Pimas, Dead Padres and Gold."



Your basic review of the book is as follows:

“While many of the historical details are correct, the rest of the pamphlet style book would be classified as an historical novel. Pure speculation and fiction from a fertile mind.”

Knowing the book wasn’t written by the late Mr. Lease who spent 40 years of his life doing the research which led to the book being written by someone else, I can understand how you or anybody else might question parts and pieces of the book. But to say that it is “pure speculation and fiction from a fertile mind” without being able to review the research in question, is a bit incredulous on your part. I believe the same thing was said about the Homeric legend of Troy. Furthermore, I believe the same has been said about your interpretation of the stone maps, even after you have disclosed your years of research and discoveries in the field.

Can I assume you don't consider it a "primary source" for your conclusions on Jesuit mining/treasure?

Even “primary source” material can contain misleading, or wrong information, such as Di Peso’s conclusion for the location of the Tumacacori visita, yet I don’t see you discrediting the rest of his findings.

"IMHO, the story just goes downhill from here:"

"Does that picture create any doubts as to the reliability of the story that follows?"

No doubt there are some glaring inaccuracies, but is that not to be expected knowing full well that the book was written by someone other than the person who did the research?

“One other thing about the book: In the map that comes with it, Tumacacori is shown on the west side of the Santa Cruz River. So much for all that meticulous historical research.”

I have to totally disagree with your statement and say “I believe it was in fact meticulous historical research from known information at that time, which put the Tumacacori mission or visita on the west side of the Santa Cruz river." Correct me if I’m wrong, but when this book was written and published back in 1965, the newest, latest, and best “primary source” information available was from Charles C. Di Peso’s book titled "The Upper Pima Of San Cayetano Del Tumacacori” and published in 1956. Wherein, Di Peso believed he had uncovered the ruins of the Tumacacori visita which was destroyed in the 1751 uprising on the west side of the Santa Cruz river!


Furthermore, what will future people doing research conclude when history is constantly being rewritten, such as the Tumacacori National Park rededicating the now existing Franciscan Tumacacori Mission as a Kino mission, and it is now part of the Kino mission bus tour? To cloud the murky waters of history even more, the Park is claiming that they have the ruins of “the original Jesuit church” right there beside the Franciscan church on the west side of the Santa Cruz river!
http://www.nps.gov/tuma/historyculture/jesuit-church-foundation.htm

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe,

Maybe you should reread my thread regarding Jesuit Treasures and Mining if you think that this is my source material. The only thing I have ever said about this book is that it is very interesting and throws some possibilities out.

Maybe you should have read the book a little closer as well. If you had, you would know that Paul Lease's Widow just took his research and gave it to a family friend to put together. This family friend had no interest in history or treasure hunting. About the only thing you can consider about the book is that it is very interesting.

I think I have sufficiently referenced much of my source material, and don't need to repeat it here. I'll leave you to look that up if you are unclear.

Best-Mike

Mike,

You and I have been exchanging email's and ideas for quite a few years now. I think I know your background and research pretty well, and in fact, have given you kudos for your extensive research on Jesuit history. Maybe it is you who should reread my post. What I wrote was: "Can I assume you don't consider it a "primary source" for your conclusions on Jesuit mining/treasure?"

Someone once told me they have primary sources and secondary sources for their conclusions and opinions. It seems prudent that we all categorize our sources in that manner.

I don't usually need to reread something more than twice to understand what is being written. In this case I have gone over the book three times, just to make sure I am not jumping to conclusions. The only author that is cited in this book is Paul Lease.

I assume the "old family friend" tried to follow Paul's research as closely as possible. In fact, he states in the book: "I attempted to put all pertinent facts into a manuscript that sets forth the material in clear perspective...." He continues with this: "I claim no credit for the information contained in this manuscript. Paul's research over the years and his conclusions based on that research, developed the story. I merely put it in its present form."

The few "pertinent facts" in the book, don't require "years" of research, but can be found with very little time or effort.

I did not attack your abilities in research nor in understanding what you have read. I see no reason for us to continue down that destructive road. We have both done that in the past, but it serves no constructive purpose.

I wrote that the book was an "historical novel", actually pretty thin on the historical aspect, and that is still my opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Thanks.

On to the book. Since we don't have any of Paul Lease's research, we can only go by what is in the book. Correct? You state that:

The few "pertinent facts" in the book, don't require "years" of research, but can be found with very little time or effort.

Maybe today with the Internet, but when Paul Lease first started researching the subject in the 1920s (he died in the early 1960s and his research spanned 40 years) finding information would have required A LOT of research. It would have required traveling to Mexico. See Joe, modern communications have made us all more productive and lazy as well. HAHAHA

Now, what I stated previously "......we can only go by what's in the book..........." Please follow my logic here:

His facts about the Pima Revolt are not in dispute. He got it all right. He got it all right through his own research. Without the internet. We know he got it right because we have many other sources with which to verify his facts that came along later.

So, if through his own research, he got all the facts of the Pima Revolt right, why can we not imagine that he was just as meticulous in his research about the treasures as he was with his research on the revolt?

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I assume you have done some research into Paul V. and Ella Lease. Can you fill me in on the history of those two people? Since the writer of the book gives us no name, he is a ghost, as far as I can determine.

Other than the "old legend whispered among the wealthier class in Mexico" the only sources that are specifically mentioned are: Johann Jakob Baegert, Father Pfefferkorn...Translated by, Theodore Treutlin and, I believe, "At least one modern historian" rounds out the sources mentioned.

I belive most of the, rather thin, historical facts could be garnered from those folks mentioned. No doubt he had other sources, but they also remain ghosts.

"Pimas, Dead Padres and Gold" consists of around 40 printed pages of text, not counting the one page penned by Mrs. Lease and the 1 1/2 pages of the "Introductory" by the Author/friend. I assume that matches up to Paul's forty years of research.

IMHO, the bulk of the publication deals with speculation, little known legend and pure fiction. In truth, our friend bb could have written a much more interesting and historically possible yarn.

If I were going to guess who Ella Lease was, it would be that she was a lady who ran or lived in the Alma Hotel in Cripple Creek, Colorado (1900) that catered to a lot of miners. In that time, she must have heard many stories and legends from those men. Even so, someone had to flesh out the historical portion of the book, including the insertion of a few sources.

Just my unqualified opinion.
_______________________

"His facts about the Pima Revolt are not in dispute. He got it all right. He got it all right through his own research. Without the internet. We know he got it right because we have many other sources with which to verify his facts that came along later."
_______________________

The Seri Indian rebellion of 1750 is where Paul Lease begins his story/chapter of "The Golden Windfall". In that short rebellion, the Spanish military and certain Spanish officials learn of the Jesuit mining and treasures.....etc.

The plot that followed, as outlined in Lease's book, included the recruitment of Luis of Saric. On page 23, we read: [No doubt about it, Luis was their man. Accordingly, one of the plotters was assigned to recruit Luis and authorized to use as bait, a Spanish appointment to
"Governor and Captain-General" over all Pimeria Alta's Pimas.]

Do you believe he got his "facts" right here?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

Farish claimed that the ruins of Tumacacori were still visible when he wrote his "History of Arizona"

The ruins of Tumacacori are still to be seen near Tubac, on the west bank of the river.

<vol 1, pp77>

...I don't know what year he actually wrote it, but the copyright is 1915.

Arivaca followed a similar history;

Aribac or Arivaca in the west appears on a doubtful map of 1733 as a pueblo. Anza in 1774 says it had been deserted since the Pima revolt in 1751 though mines were worked until 1767. In 1777 it is noted as a place rich in mines and one Ortiz is said to have applied about this time for a grant of the rancho Zuniga in 1835 mentions it as a rancho despoblado.

The mines around Arivaca were being worked until 1767. What could explain why the mines around Arivaca should have stopped being worked in 1767? Should we conclude that because the Jesuits left, the <unknown> Spanish miners quit mining?


Guevavi was abandoned in that 1751 revolt and the Indios did not return for three years. Tumacacori was still occupied by Indios until October of 1848, and by September of 1849 the village was abandoned. The NPS includes a tantalizing bit of info too;

It was in this terrible winter of 1848 that we believe the Tumacacori people finally abandoned their village. They were undoubtedly a very saddened and disheartened group. Plagued by Apache raids in the district, having their home ground sold even while they lived on it, having no priest or hope of one again, suffering from the unprecedented weather, they took such cherished items of church property as they could, including the statues, and left, never to return. They transferred to San Xavier, donating the furnishings they carried to the church there (also abandoned at that time), and joining their kinsmen of the town.

So some of those beautiful silver ornaments seen by early Anglo visitors to San Xavier del Bac, may well have been taken from the mission in Tumacacori.

Many rich silver mines near the missions were worked extensively and the rude reduction facilities at hand produced large quantities of the precious metals.

<The Resources of Arizona, Hamilton, pp 374 1884>

I can't address the theory of the Pima revolt being instigated by Spaniards for the purpose of taking the precious metals of the missions, though it is an interesting theory. There are plenty of modern historians (and Jesuit historians) whom will support Joe's version of history, that there were no Jesuits mining and thus no treasures, but I must respectfully disagree; even the 'evidence on the ground' that Joe sees as pointing to wholly pastoral efforts by the Jesuits, I see quite differently - that the beef, lamb, chicken, milk, grain etc were not just to feed the flock of Indios but to support their somewhat 'bootleg' mining activities. To impeach our Jesuit historians, <such as Father Polzer> I ask where is their mention of the mines owned by the Jesuit colleges? What did they do with the precious metals produced at those mines? The fact that these mines (and their produce) are so conveniently ignored and omitted, is very telling. What is surprising is that so many modern historians take the Jesuit historians at face value and conclude there were no mines, no treasures. Maybe someone ought to see about getting our southwestern history books edited, again?

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

That was a mighty long series of questions for some fairly short posts by me.

The Jesuits carried their service paraphernalia with them to the visita's. Those were left unattended for long periods of time, except for the Indians who lived near them. Tumacacori's "church" was a mud hut......originally. I am sure that the primary missions, Dolores for example, had many such precious metal items. It is fairly well documented where most of those items came from. I am saying nothing more than what I have written.

I have serious doubt that the slag was hauled away by American prospectors, but they are a crazy lot. I don't know how much slag is created at a blacksmith shop, but when that shop is also a foundry for the creation of mission bells, and the various pieces of hardware that were needed on the frontier, I suppose it could amount to quite a bit. What do you think?


"Not to get picky here amigo but the location of Tumacacori was at one time on the west side of the river; the location of its visita church was moved at least twice, and the Franciscan edifice we see on the cover of that particular book (another one I don't own) was supposedly built on the Jesuit foundations. Kino's first visit to Tumacacori was on the west bank of the river."

I don't mind your getting picky at all. It keeps me thinking. Tumacacori was not moved to the west side of the river until, I believe, 1763.
The original Tumacacori was destroyed in 1751, and no natives lived there after that time, as far as I know. By 1772, we get the first mention of Tumacacori as "having both a church and a house for the Padre, but no furniture."

"In October of this same year Kino records, "We slept in the earth-roofed adobe house, in which I said Mass the following day." We believe this to be the "adobe chapel" referred to by later writers, and that it was the only "church" at Tumacacori in Kino' s time."

I believe Kino's "earth-roofed adobe house" is the proper name for the building. Just my personal opinion. The current mission building was built, I believe, starting in 1800 and being completed in 1820-'22.

"This is not intended as a defense for a book I have never read, but the title doesn't say "Pimas, Dead Jesuit padres, and Gold" rather it is generic for the Order of the priests, all would be "Padres" right?"

Mike already addressed this. The book is about the Jesuits and the Pima uprising of 1751.

[Before I forget this, remember those descriptions of the beautiful silver and gold ornamentations found in all of the mission churches, even the visitas, from the time of the Jesuits? Bishop Antonio de los Reyes on 6 July 1772 wrote a report on the condition of the missions in the Upper and Lower Pimería Alta. Following is his report on San José de Tumacácori as translated by Father Kieran McCarty:

Quote
The village of San Jose at Tumacácori lies seven leagues to the south <north, translation problem> of Guevavi and one from the Presidio of Tubac, in open territory with good lands. In this village they have a church and house for the Missionary devoid of all ornament and furnishing. According to the Census Book, which I have here before me, there are twenty-two married couples, twelve widowers, ten orphans, the number of should in all ninety-three.

Hmm - so what happened to all that beautiful silver and gold ornamentation and instruments?]

I would question......."descriptions of the beautiful silver and gold ornamentations found in all of the mission churches, even the visitas, from the time of the Jesuits?" I would repeat the following: [In October of this same year Kino records, "We slept in the earth-roofed adobe house, in which I said Mass the following day." We believe this to be the "adobe chapel" referred to by later writers, and that it was the only "church" at Tumacacori in Kino' s time.]

Don't know if I addressed all of your points, but I did my best.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

I would question......."descriptions of the beautiful silver and gold ornamentations found in all of the mission churches, even the visitas, from the time of the Jesuits?" I would repeat the following: [In October of this same year Kino records, "We slept in the earth-roofed adobe house, in which I said Mass the following day." We believe this to be the "adobe chapel" referred to by later writers, and that it was the only "church" at Tumacacori in Kino' s time.]

I would point out, that the descriptions date to a period later than Kino's time; I have no doubt that whatever structure was put up in Tumacacori, in Kino's time, was quite a rude structure, but that improvements (in particular the ornaments) would logically have been done in the 60 plus years time.

Cactusjumper also wrote

I have serious doubt that the slag was hauled away by American prospectors, but they are a crazy lot.

Would you think that is a 'made up story'? Or would you think that American prospectors would gather iron slag by the wagon load to sell?

The first civilized men to visit the Arizona region were the Spanish Jesuit missionaries who from Sonora in 1687 explored the valley of Santa Cruz River and considerable portions of the Gila and San Pedro valleys. Their reports of the fertile valleys and mineral wealth of this new country led to the establishment on the Santa Cruz of the missions of San Xavier del Bac, Tumacacori, Santiago, and San Cayetano the town of Tubac and farther north that of Tucson. The first mission in Arizona was established at Guevavi or Guebabi about 30 miles south of Tucson in 1687 and those of San Xavier and Tumacacori soon followed.

These missions have an important bearing on the mining history of the region in that their founders and keepers the Jesuit fathers were in a sense the pioneer miners of the country and conducted mining operations with a considerable force of men mostly impressed Indians in connection with their missionary work. That they must have operated on a considerable scale is indicated by the extent of the workings and the slag dumps still seen near the mission ruins . They named the old Salero and other mines in the Santa Rita region.

The San Xavier mission 9 miles south of Tucson founded prior to 1694 and still standing an object of visit to tourists is described as a large church with imposing architecture in which $40,000 in solid silver taken from the mines in the Santa Rita Mountains near by was used to adorn the altar.

<USGS Bulletin 582, Mineral Deposits of the Santa Rita and Patagonia Mountains Arizona, Frank C Schrader, 1915, pp 21>

Did Schrader (and the USGS) simply get it all wrong?

Thirty years firmly It is known that the Jesuit fathers in charge of the missions gave some attention to mining and there are many places where remains of the Mexican style of furnace are found as well as piles of slag which bear witness of the enterprise and industry of these early metallurgists.

< Annual report of the Dept of the Interior, 1905, pp 157>

The ruins of San Jose de Tumacacori is the only other relic of the numerous missions which flourished in Arizona. It stood on a gentle slope within a few hundred feet of the Santa Cruz near the old presidio of Tubac. This mission was taken by the Apaches in 1820 and all the occupants massacred. The church was smaller and less pretentious in its style of architecture than San Xavier. Its shape was that of a Greek cross with a basilica. The latter is still standing crowned with the emblem of Christianity. The material used in the construction was adobe or sun dried brick which was plastered with cement and coped with burnt brick. The roof was flat and covered with tiles. The rich valley adjacent was brought under a high state of cultivation and bloomed in richness and beauty. The remains of crude smelting works and the slag from the same go to show that the old Jesuits practiced the mining industry here long before a pound of bullion was produced in any portion of the vast territory now known as the United states.

<The resources of Arizona, Hamilton, pp 380-81>

I don't have a sample of the slag, but several (old) sources attest to its richness in silver.

To day ruins of many ancient adobe furnaces and other devices for the extraction of the precious metals are often found and piles of slag some of it rich in unextracted wealth give evidence of the richness of the ores discovered.

<Arizona the Wonderland, &c, George Wharton James, 1917 pp 190 >

On September 19, 1948, Mr. C. W. Walker visited Tumacacori and showed the author a location about 100 yards southeast of the mission church, on a mound which is presumably part of the unexcavated east wall of the long-abandoned Indian town. Mr. Walker picked up a few small ore and slag specimens from the top of this mound, and showed them to the writer. He then explained that in 1918 he had shipped approximately 120 tons of slag from old slag dumps adjacent to three round adobe furnaces along this stretch of high ground. He says the slag contained about 8 per cent lead, 3 per cent copper, about 8 ounces in silver, and about 1/6 ounce of gold, per ton.

<http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/tuma/jackson/chap8.htm>

Crazy Anglo prospectors indeed!

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Did Schrader (and the USGS) simply get it all wrong?"

I would never say they got "it all wrong". On the other hand, it's possible that they got it wrong. It's also possible that you, or I, have it wrong.

I notice you have also quoted the N.P.S. That's interesting, as they have been accused of lying when it comes to the history of Tumacacori. This seems very much like what I am often accused of doing.....
Using a source when it agrees with my theories, and castigating it when it doesn't.

I think we are all seeking the truth here, but while sifting through the "evidence", we tend to lean one way or the other. At that point, I believe, it's called opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"I have serious doubt that the slag was hauled away by American prospectors, but they are a crazy lot."

"Would you think that is a 'made up story'? Or would you think that American prospectors would gather iron slag by the wagon load to sell?"
___________________________

I think that in many cases, false stories get passed along as true. There may even be times when they are picked up by reliable sources and passed along to the public.
____________________________

[Quote
On September 19, 1948, Mr. C. W. Walker visited Tumacacori and showed the author a location about 100 yards southeast of the mission church, on a mound which is presumably part of the unexcavated east wall of the long-abandoned Indian town. Mr. Walker picked up a few small ore and slag specimens from the top of this mound, and showed them to the writer. He then explained that in 1918 he had shipped approximately 120 tons of slag from old slag dumps adjacent to three round adobe furnaces along this stretch of high ground. He says the slag contained about 8 per cent lead, 3 per cent copper, about 8 ounces in silver, and about 1/6 ounce of gold, per ton.
<http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/tuma/Jackson/chap8.htm>

Crazy Anglo prospectors indeed!]
____________________________

Once again we are talking about a Tumacacori that was never run by the Jesuits. This topic is supposed to be about Jesuit involvement in mining and Jesuit treasures.......as far as I know.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
This is a very long reply so I must beg your indulgence; thank you in advance.

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,

"Did Schrader (and the USGS) simply get it all wrong?"

I would never say they got "it all wrong". On the other hand, it's possible that they got it wrong. It's also possible that you, or I, have it wrong.

I notice you have also quoted the N.P.S. That's interesting, as they have been accused of lying when it comes to the history of Tumacacori. This seems very much like what I am often accused of doing.....
Using a source when it agrees with my theories, and castigating it when it doesn't.

I think we are all seeking the truth here, but while sifting through the "evidence", we tend to lean one way or the other. At that point, I believe, it's called opinion.

Take care,

I thought you would appreciate that particular quotation as having come from the NPS "official" sources, which states at the end of that chapter there never was any Jesuit treasure. I am not, and hope that I have not accused you of lying, as far as I know you have been 100% truthful. As to why the NPS would be aware of those smelters and (former) slag pile, and then conclude there never was any precious metals accumulated or produced, I have to wonder about if there were any pressures being exerted by 'outside' forces to arrive at that utterly innocent Jesuit scenario. You know the NPS formerly DID include scenarios of Jesuits working mines, including a very interesting diorama.

Beth hates it when I do that, <use an extract which supports "my" position from a source that is overall, in opposition> but in this case it is done to show that the "story" of American prospectors hauling away slag to sell for the still-valuable mineral content does not originate in a treasure magazine. Can you see that a person might well arrive at a wholly opposite conclusion from the (current) NPS position viz Jesuit treasures and mining, from the same info they have?

Cactusjumper also wrote

Roy,

"I have serious doubt that the slag was hauled away by American prospectors, but they are a crazy lot."

<Oroblanco wrote>

"Would you think that is a 'made up story'? Or would you think that American prospectors would gather iron slag by the wagon load to sell?"

___________________________

I think that in many cases, false stories get passed along as true. There may even be times when they are picked up by reliable sources and passed along to the public.
____________________________

Quote
On September 19, 1948, Mr. C. W. Walker visited Tumacacori and showed the author a location about 100 yards southeast of the mission church, on a mound which is presumably part of the unexcavated east wall of the long-abandoned Indian town. Mr. Walker picked up a few small ore and slag specimens from the top of this mound, and showed them to the writer. He then explained that in 1918 he had shipped approximately 120 tons of slag from old slag dumps adjacent to three round adobe furnaces along this stretch of high ground. He says the slag contained about 8 per cent lead, 3 per cent copper, about 8 ounces in silver, and about 1/6 ounce of gold, per ton.
<http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/tuma/Jackson/chap8.htm>
<Oroblanco also wrote>

Crazy Anglo prospectors indeed!

____________________________

Once again we are talking about a Tumacacori that was never run by the Jesuits. This topic is supposed to be about Jesuit involvement in mining and Jesuit treasures.......as far as I know.

Are you saying those adobe furnaces and slag pile date to after 1767? Tumacacori was "run by Jesuits" prior to that time, though not with a resident priest. Are you saying that pueblos of Indians which had no resident priests, were not controlled by the missionaries? Remember that the Jesuits (and Franciscans, etc) often did not directly oversee the actual field work of their mission Indians, but had trusted overseers. Sometimes those overseers were a bit 'rough' on the Indians, and this likely led to the 1695 Pima rebellion. In that case, the overseer was an Opata.

Dating the slag and furnaces to a later period could be a problem. In 1827, the Mexican government ordered all Franciscans out, and the last (known) entry in the Tumacacori church registers dates to November of 1826 <father Diaz> though several following pages are missing so we don't know the exact day on which the Franciscans departed. The village was still occupied by Indians, so it is puzzling as to how a sale of the lands was arranged by declaring them "abandoned" but..."On April 19, 1844, the treasury department of Sonora held such a public sale, calling the lands of Tumacacori abandoned (despoblado). At this time, Don Francisco Aguilar purchased the entire Tumacacori holdings for $500" ...not a bad price for over 52000 acres of river bottoms.

To refute the claim of Tumacacori being "abandoned" in 1844, we know that visiting priest Father Rojas performed 13 baptisms in Tumacocori on Sept 8, 1846.

"For a time Manuel Gandara conducted a prosperous ranching business on the lands, which included the territory formerly used by the people of Guevavi and Calabasas, as well as those of Tumacacori. Gandara's son, and others, ran the place. It had a woolen factory, with 18 employees, and there were 22 farm laborers. There also were 10,000 head of sheep, and 600 head of goats" <Gandara was brother-in-law to Aguilar mentioned above>

After the Gadsden purchase and boundary survey, Gandara abandoned the mission lands in 1855. The first American prospectors arrived with Charles Poston in that same year, and set up HQ in Tubac, not Tumacacori, where quite an operation was undertaken for some years.

Which leaves me wondering, what period you assign those clear evidences of mining and smelting at Tumacacori (and Guevavi for that matter)? If before 1767, the likely operators would have been the Jesuits, if between 1768-1827, then Franciscans would be the most likely candidates; from 1827 to 1844 the only people living there were Indians with not even regular visits from a priest, and after 1844 the operation was ranching & wool production. The first Americans didn't set up operations in Tumacacori but in Tubac, several miles away.

Based on what I have seen, the smelting & mining started under the Jesuits, was interrupted by their departure 1767, and some time after 1817 the Franciscans re-discovered at least several of the old Jesuit mines and ran the mines on a somewhat smaller scale for a few years. As stated several times, there are modern historians enough to refute this 100%, but older sources disagree.

We do not have the whole of the Jesuit or Franciscan records of the colonial period, even in the church registers (not the fiscal books) many pages are missing today. Earlier American treasure hunters are reported to have found (and most likely removed) records of early Jesuit mining activities. Why should this whole "legend" of Jesuit mining and treasures have even started, if not based on reality? There was no need for the Indians to tell American treasure hunters & prospectors stories of having been forced to work in mines by the padres, they could have easily said they had been forced to work by Spaniards and it would not have made the mines or treasures any less valuable. It is all the result of vicious accusations flung by the "enemies" of the Society of Jesus, we are told; yet this same Society "somehow" came to be owners of vast real estate holdings, including a number of MINES.

It has been stated here (in T-net) several times, how excellent the Spaniards were at record-keeping; early American prospectors and miners may not have matched that ability, but we have pretty good records of their discoveries and early mines as well. Yet here in southern AZ (and in truth, over most of the southwest) we have a number of ancient mines, for which there are no Spanish, Mexican or early American records; in fact for some (like the Wandering Jew, Montoya etc) the early Americans stated these were old Jesuit mines and that they had records of them from Jesuit sources, which we do not have today. If these mines had been Spanish-owned or Mexican, shouldn't we expect that records of the owners should be available, even today? Rather, we have various statements which attribute these mines (and some which remain lost) to the Jesuits.

As to how this ties in with the Molina document, in order for the treasures and mines listed in that document to exist, we are establishing that Jesuits did have mines and worked them, and if there were mines, they must have produced precious metals; as the "official" records are virtually silent as to any "Church" shipments of such precious metals, the obvious conclusion is that it was being smuggled, requiring stockpiling and concealment of same. This would explain the existence of the Molina document, among others as opposed to a mean hoax pulled to cast aspersions on the Society of Jesus or to make millions from books sales.

Sorry for yet another long-winded blather, this is one of my favorite topics and I get carried away pretty easily.
Roy

 

[Oroblanco]

Postscript;
<Cactusjumper wrote>

Once again we are talking about a Tumacacori that was never run by the Jesuits. This topic is supposed to be about Jesuit involvement in mining and Jesuit treasures.......as far as I know.

Just wish to point this out, probably you already know of it but if not, it is interesting.

On September 19, 1948, Mr. C. W. Walker visited Tumacacori and showed the author a location about 100 yards southeast of the mission church, on a mound which is presumably part of the unexcavated east wall of the long-abandoned Indian town. Mr. Walker picked up a few small ore and slag specimens from the top of this mound, and showed them to the writer. He then explained that in 1918 he had shipped approximately 120 tons of slag from old slag dumps adjacent to three round adobe furnaces along this stretch of high ground. He says the slag contained about 8 per cent lead, 3 per cent copper, about 8 ounces in silver, and about 1/6 ounce of gold, per ton.
<http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/tuma/Jackson/chap8.htm>

Mr Walker's site is about 100 yards southeast of the current mission church; now consider this;

Our description of Tumacacori would be incomplete without reference to structures that lie in the patio area east of the church. Late in 1934 an FERA project, under direction of Archeologist Paul Beaubien, was initiated for the purpose of extensive exploratory trenching, to locate and map historic structures in the vicinity of the mission church which are no longer visible on the surface. During the next several months a large part of this work project involved locating all wall and floor remnants of the old patio. This activity revealed that under some of the walls are remnants of older walls.
Less than 100 feet east of the present church building, underlying part of the patio garden area, are the stone wall foundations of what we believe was its predecessor. By this we mean the church which succeeded the adobe house chapel of Kino's time; the church in which Lorenzo, the alcalde, was buried in 1757; the one which Father Font located in his 1777 map on the east side of the river; the one which in 1795 was "a very cramped and flimsy little chapel, which has been made over piece-meal; and today it is big enough to hold the people of the Pueblo; it is made of earth and is in bad shape . . ."
This structure (Rm. 50, see ground floor plan, pp. 48-9), running east and west, facing east, had a total length of 59-1/2 feet. The east part was 50 feet long and 15 feet wide, and would have been the nave, somewhat smaller and more cramped than the nave of the present church, which is 54 feet long by 17 feet 3 inches wide. The west part, 9-1/2 feet deep by 8 feet wide, is a much constricted part of the foundation, and would have supported the sanctuary walls. This definitely was "very cramped" by comparison with the present sanctuary, which is over 17 feet across, each way.
<
We quote Beaubien's report on this discovery: "Possibly these foundations mark the site of an early mission. Facts in support of this belief are: the large size; appropriate proportion of length to width; foundation stones correctly placed to support the pilasters of a choir loft; the absence of any knowledge of other foundations which might locate one of the early missions supposed to be at Tumacacori; and, stone foundations high enough to carry plaster, unlike any other building on [the] monument except the present mission. The constricted sanctuary is not uncommon in early Southwestern missions."

So the old furnaces and slag piles are about 100 yards southeast of the current mission, and the OLDER church stood about 100 feet east of the current mission church. The building was nearly as large as the current one, and most probably is the church in which the alcalde was buried in 1757, while it was under Jesuit administration. The church of 1757 (which we do not know the year in which it had been built, only that it stood in that year definitely) was actually closer to the furnaces and slag piles, than the Franciscan church.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Less than 100 feet east of the present church building, underlying part of the patio garden area, are the stone wall foundations of what we believe was its predecessor."

I wonder if what they believed then, is the same as what they believe now.

Archaeology, IMHO, has always been a science in flux. Each generation brings new revelations and "truths". The people who write the NPS "truths" are simply folks who believe what their current knowledge dictates are the "facts".

My own current knowledge says the conclusions that you have quoted are in error. In archaeology, change seldom comes quickly, and that is also, usually, true of me.

On the other hand, given reliable/verifiable proof, my opinion can change rather quickly.

"I am not, and hope that I have not accused you of lying, as far as I know you have been 100% truthful."

This is what I wrote:

"I notice you have also quoted the N.P.S. That's interesting, as they have been accused of lying when it comes to the history of Tumacacori. This seems very much like what I am often accused of doing.....
Using a source when it agrees with my theories, and castigating it when it doesn't."

For some reason the computer moved the highlighted portion down a line, and I didn't bother to correct it. That may have made my meaning a little confusing.

This is what it should have looked like: This seems very much like what I am often accused of doing.....,using a source when it agrees with my theories, and castigating it when it doesn't."

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Seems to me like Father Keller has taken some minor abuse in the Jesuit treasure and Indian abuse parts of this discussion. Anyone have something good to say about him, or do we all see these things in black and white?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Infosponge]

Good evening fellow hunters of history,

“Seems to me like Father Keller has taken some minor abuse in the Jesuit treasure and Indian abuse parts of this discussion. Anyone have something good to say about him, or do we all see these things in black and white?”

Ignacio Xavier Keller S.J. 1702 – 1759​

It was said that he was tall, fair skinned, and had a scar on his lip, from what history does not tell us. At 14 years of age he joined the Society of Jesus in 1717, and came to America in 1730. He professed his final vows while at Sumaca, in 1732. After Segesser left Guevavi, the responsibilities of the entire Pimeria fell upon Father Keller, and he kept Christianity alive at vacant Guevavi until Father Rapicani arrived there in 1737. But once again the responsibilities of the upper Pimeria fell upon him in 1744. Father Keller was very strong willed, which might explain at least partly the actions he was accused of with the Pima uprising of 1751. Father Keller successfully defended himself in Mexico City, and was sent back to Sumaca, where the Indians there welcomed his return. In 1753 Father Keller graciously filled in for Father Pauer, looking after three missions and two presidios. There can be no doubt that Father Keller was completely devoted to his mission and the Society of Jesus, so much so that he died in 1759 while confessing a dying Pima.

Sincerely,

Infosponge

 

[cactusjumper]

Infosponge,

Kudo's.......You have composed a very nice eulogy for Father Keller. Almost could have been written by a Jesuit.

"Father Keller successfully defended himself in Mexico City, and was sent back to Sumaca, where the Indians there welcomed his return."

In reality, Father Visitor Segesser originally tried to send Father Luis Vivas to Soamca. He was to administer to Tubutama and Soamca. The Pima at Tubutama accepted the new priest, but those of Soamca would have no other priest but Keller. Eventually he had to be returned to Soamca, "because its Indians were determined to have 'their Father Keller' (as they would say) and not to accept any other."

I would say that speaks volumes for his personal relationship with his.....flock, and their feelings for him. IMHO, Father Keller was an . extraordinary man. On the other hand, I would not want to judge him by today's standards.

Thanks for the reply,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

This is what it should have looked like: This seems very much like what I am often accused of doing.....,using a source when it agrees with my theories, and castigating it when it doesn't."

If you are referring to the single post by Beth on that issue, at least you get the text version and not the verbal as I get on a much more frequent basis. She does not think it justified, but I do as when focused on a particular aspect, as in that case the origin of the report of American prospectors hauling away slag to sell for the remaining precious metals content, has been dismissed as originating in treasure-hunting circles, t-mags etc but this is not the case.

I have to wonder about the NPS version (current) for their conclusions, when you have clear evidence of mining and ore processing in such proximity to Jesuit (and later Franciscan) mission/visita sites. Especially so when our Jesuit historians have taken the position there never were any Jesuit mines or treasures. It appears that there is a (modern) effort to put the best possible face on the history of the missionaries, especially those Jesuits. One historian (a pro-Jesuit at that) described the Jesuits as holy propagandists, and I would agree - and not just on ecclesiastical grounds. Why so many historians ignore the history as seen from Amerindian eyes (though Hollywood sometimes sees it ONLY from their eyes, ignoring some brutal facts about their culture) and repeat a version that seems as if it came from a Jesuit propagandist is certainly puzzling to me. The lack of documents FROM the Amerindians does not mean that their oral tradition is false. As pointed out before, certainly the Spanish were enslaving Indios, and the Jesuits did make efforts to prevent this abuse; however there are several historical incidents in which the Jesuits were the abusers and the Indios actually sought relief by going to those same evil, enslaving, brutal Spaniards. If the Jesuit version were true, these incidents (as in the Pima rebellions, the Yaqui rebellion of 1740) are inexplicable.

Cactusjumper also wrote

Seems to me like Father Keller has taken some minor abuse in the Jesuit treasure and Indian abuse parts of this discussion. Anyone have something good to say about him, or do we all see these things in black and white?

As our mutual amigo Infosponge has already responded, I would add only this; why should we lavish praise on this particular padre? He was no father Kino, and while he may well have been utterly innocent of all the terrible things he was accused of, in the eyes of the Indios under his charge, SOME of them that is certainly not all, he was in some way responsible for the uprising. History may not be kind or fair, nor is it fair to judge someone who lived centuries ago by modern standards but I see no good reason to try to defend or praise this particular man. No one is pure good, or pure evil, all are a mix of different proportions. Do you see this case (Keller, and in general the Jesuit history) as either all black, or all white? Or is it because when the skeptics of Jesuit mines/treasures ask or demand evidence that any ever existed, and in the process we must post the negative side of Jesuit history (including Keller) it comes across as wholly negative, that <from your opponents view> no positive side of their history existed?

The Amerindians world prior to the arrival of the Europeans and their missionaries was hardly an Utopia, brutal as the Spanish system was it was an improvement over the perpetual warfare, enslavement, raiding and thieving even human sacrifice and cannibalism. The Jesuits introduction of livestock and wheat helped end the cycle of "feast and famine" that was reality for most Indios prior to their arrival too. If our posts here seem a bit harsh on the Jesuits, rest assured that modern historians are not so harsh, and the Jesuit historians surely will find many things to praise even in father Keller and father Tello (that is, when they are not denying that Tello ever existed) and not find a fault of any kind.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I only have a short time to be online and wanted to catch up. <Will check back this evening> My apologies for the long winded blather, I can never seem to figure how to say things clearly in just a few words.
Roy

 

[gollum]

Do you mean Padre Diego Tello SJ or Padre Thomas Tello SJ?

Diego came first in the mid 1600s, and Thomas was killed with Padre Ruhen SJ in 1751 at Caborca. Who could say he didn't exist?

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Roy,

"The Jesuits introduction of livestock and wheat helped end the cycle of "feast and famine" that was reality for most Indios prior to their arrival too."

I believe the introduction of livestock killed many more Native Americans than it saved from starvation. I could be wrong, but think that's correct.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

Do you mean Padre Diego Tello SJ or Padre Thomas Tello SJ?

Tomas Tello of Caborca, and yes Lamar at one point denied there ever was such a person as a member of the Society. In fact he asked for proof, and I don't happen to have his birth certificate and official profession of faith in my pocket, so I just take it on the faith of the historical record that Tomas Tello did in fact exist and was a priest in the Jesuit order.

Cactusjumper wrote

I believe the introduction of livestock killed many more Native Americans than it saved from starvation. I could be wrong, but think that's correct.

I am sure that Lamar would take exception to that statement, and it isn't really part of our topic, as you stated "This topic is supposed to be about Jesuit involvement in mining and Jesuit treasures.......as far as I know.
Roy