True Spelling

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Your point is well taken. Poor choice of words on my part.

Many authors have spent countless hours in those archives. As I don't read, write or understand Spanish, it would be a bit of a waste for me to visit them. I prefer to read the work, in English, of those who are better equipped and educated than I. While they may have missed such a momentous charge, I somehow doubt it.

Whichever side of the stories a person comes down on, the other side will never believe the "facts" presented.

In closing, I have never seen any original documents of Indian charges against the Jesuits. I have read the accounts of a number of such documents, and Jesuits using Indian labor for mining was never included.

It could, of course, have happened.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO ED: Apparently the dip of the vein goes from the upper right down at 45* to the left. very very interesting. Are we looking North or ??


Cactus, I tend to agree with you on documented evidence, except that I personally have hard, undeniable evidence in front of me ---------------------- TAYOPA..

But then, what else would you expect from a supposedly secret operation? WE still can't dig up the truth on Pearl Harbor , the Kennedy assassination, etc., etc., etc. , and these are covered in depth with tons of documents while the Jesuit operations in the Americas were carefully hidden from view by the Masters.

Remember, the clandestine operations were not carried out by Jesuits in robes, but in normal clothing. An ignorant Native --- in terms of education , not ability -- would not know the difference, and so would only consider them as normal miners..

Actually there can be a no. of reasons why Jesuits were not personally accused.

Don Jose de La mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Friends,

Cactusjumper wrote:

In closing, I have never seen any original documents of Indian charges against the Jesuits. I have read the accounts of a number of such documents, and Jesuits using Indian labor for mining was never included.

It could, of course, have happened.

HOLA Joe, I am fairly certain there is such a record in which Indios made formal accusations of being forced to labor in Jesuit mines, in the testimony given to the Viceroy in the Yaqui, Pima, and Mayo Rebellion in Sinaloa and Sonora (1740?). The Viceroy and Archbishop Vizron approved the Yaqui demands for free elections, respect for land boundaries, that Yaquis must be paid for work and that they could not be forced to labor in the mines. I do not possess copies of the testimonies given before the Viceroy, and would be working with the Spanish-english dictionary anyway but am quite confident the document you seek is among them.

About the only "good" that could arise from proving this allegation beyond doubt is to prove the Society is either mistaken about the record, or deliberately lying, and for long, I could see no possible gain from this result. It would change nothing, in my opinion, however it would serve to "prove a point" and maybe get some history texts edited and corrected. There are documents in Paraguay that include direct accusations of clandestine shipments of silver produced in the Jesuit mines being sent directly to Rome too, but that only is obliquely relevant to our discussion and the "hot button" topic of Jesuits, secret mines and treasures, slaves etc. I do begin to understand your interest Joe, in trying to get the record correct, if for no reason other than to get history right, or even just a personal quest for the 'truth'. I have mis-understood your questions on this subject in the recent past as perhaps some personal bias, which is now clearly not the case. I am "slow on the uptake" sometimes.. sorry to admit! Unless I have again gotten your position wrong! if so just give me a kick....

I re-read my previous post (yesterday, above) and speaking of "poor choice of words" that message could certainly have been said with more courtesy, my apologies for the rude reply - ran out of meds a few days ago and was tired & cranky. Not a good time to be writing out messages to friends, if I wish to KEEP them! I will try to avoid such in future.

Real de Tayopa wrote:

Actually there can be a no. of reasons why Jesuits were not personally accused.

The obvious one, and the one which has been directly alluded to by Indios, or at least their direct descendants, is to keep the mines as secret as possible, in fact efforts were taken during the revolts to conceal the very existence of the mines so as to avoid the enslavement of being forced to work in them. I have to agree too, that when we say "Jesuits" most people often instantly assume we are speaking of priests, when in reality there are "jesuits" whom are not ordained priests but still are Jesuits, and work for the benefit of the Order and the Church. So it seems a miscarriage to claim the Jesuits were mining, if one considers only the obvious priests to be the whole of the Jesuits, when those who were most engaged in the activities (and I would not exclude ALL of the priests either) were not ordained priests. However as you pointed out Jose', to the Indios, seeing both types of Jesuits live in the same homes, pray together, etc it seems unlikely that they would have differentiated between the good padre who took their confessions and baptised their daughters, and those who directed their labors in the fields and mines - especially since the ordained priest also directed field works and judging whom needed punishments.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO ORO: Yo posted -->

"when in reality there are "jesuits" whom are not ordained priests but still are Jesuits, and work for the benefit of the Order"
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Hmm, now who does that remind you of?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Could it be a fact?

 

[Cubfan64]

We're pretty far off topic now, but sorry to hear about you and your brother's situations BB.

Heart surgery has come a long ways, so I'm sure your brother's in capable hands and hopefully will recover fully. I've had the misfortune to tear my hamstring (not sure what you meant by upper and lower - I know there are several hamstring "related" muscle groups, but never heard them referred to that way), so I feel your pain. I tore mine slightly playing softball a couple years ago and 3-4 weeks later decided I felt good enough to play again - stretched out and had a little discomfort, but the first time I had to move to my right on a ground ball it tore worse. That time the entire back of my thigh turned black and blue and I wasn't able to walk normally for at least 6 weeks. It wasn't completely torn to the point where I needed surgery to reattach it, but it was pretty bad.

The only advice I can give you is to NOT OVERDO IT!!! If after a few weeks you think it's feeling well enough to walk more, give it at least another couple weeks! Avoid stairs, etc... All I know is that overdoing it resulted in a miserable summer and I believe the muscle will never be as strong as it once was - it sucks getting old!!

As far as the expedition goes, you had posted a photo at one time of a circular area with what appeared to be trees/shrubs surrounding it - almost as though they were in a regular circular pattern. I believe you said that it was very dangerous to climb up and easy to fall down into from above - I believe it was your thought that it was an above ground hydrothermal vent. Is this the "funnel" that you said you checked out and it turned out not to be what you thought?

As far as Montezuma's tomb goes, I'm sure I'm not the only one who is going to question how you know "for a fact" you have located it. You have to realize that many of your posts contain absolute statements like "I know for a fact," or we have "proof positive" of something when in reality, what you have is beliefs and theories - be they strong or weak, doesn't matter, nothing is proven fact until it's exactly that - a fact.

I'll be interested to see some of your pictures and hear about the expedition - regardless of whether it ended too soon or not.

Hope you and your brother take it easy and recover fully.

You might want to move further discussion out of this Tayopa thread

 

[the blindbowman]

i agree , after what i have gave to this research i need no longer post or reply here or anywhere else for that matter ..... good luck ...

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Blindbowman and everyone,

Sorry to hear about your mishap and your brother's ill health, - as our mutual friend Cubfan wrote:

Hope you and your brother take it easy and recover fully

Ditto, as they say - get well soon mi amigo!

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good afternoon my Friends LAMAR and SWR;

A hypothetical question. I have found THE TAYOPA, all information indicates that it was supposedly worked by the Jesuits, however They officially deny this.

If I open one of the deposits, or one of the mines, what, .if any, claim would they have in your opinion?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[BILL96]

Jose,
Good question, Do the Jesuits have a head spokesperson? Are they still based in rome? Is the pope still in charge? Would the catholic church be the ones making any claims?. You have got to believe that even if you uncovered a billion dollar fortune they would still have to deny any involvement just to maintain credibility.
Just my thoughts
Bill

 

[Old Dog]

Hola mi amigo Jose.

It would occure to me that if you have these denials in writing and they are signed and dated the church and the jesuit order would there by deny any claim to anything of substance regarding YOUR Tayopa.

I think a court of law would rule in your favor.

Go ahead... Stick it to them. LOL

Thom
OD

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO mi amigo El Houn dog: I agree, but caution on their part would suggest -------->

"in accordance with our Present knowledge ". this leaves the door wide open for future, suddenly discovered lost data, claims. hehehhe.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Old Dog]

Once more the church has left a door to escape or encroach.

As you suggested to me once..
Best you have an O/A torch handy to make nuggets with.

Once finished then make the discovery known.
I really hope you can stand them on their ear.

LOL

Thom

 

[Springfield]

DJ de la M,
IMHO, the SJ would have no interest in obtaining the mining claims per se. However, if there were valuable caches left behind on the properties, they could probably obtain possession of the caches in court, provided of course that they provided proper documentation of ownership.

 

[tesoro dog]

Hola, Don Jose!!

I don't believe the Church much less the Jesuits have any power in Mexico anymore. I met a man years back that worked for the US State dept., who told me all military officers candidates had to join the "secret society". Mandatory!! Most senators and congressmen there, admit to being members. They are, your big BUMP in the road! Suerte!! TD

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,

SWR wrote:

I'd rather not speculate about something that does not exist

Now if you could get such a written note as our friend SWR has just posted here, from the Society of Jesus, you would have very good insurance. However, SWR's post is a very curious one as it would indicate an un-willingness on his part to discuss possibilities for something he believes does not exist, yet here we are discussing that very subject, are we not? Would you care to explain SWR?

I have to 'ditto' the concerns of Tesoro Dog, I would bet that the local government is apt to be more of a headache and potential "wolves" (as you mentioned yourself Real de Tayopa in much the same words) than the SJ. Of course anything is possible, and once you bring out and announce your find to the public, the wolves will be howling.....

Good luck and good hunting to you, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

.... I have to 'ditto' the concerns of Tesoro Dog, I would bet that the local government is apt to be more of a headache and potential "wolves" (as you mentioned yourself Real de Tayopa in much the same words) than the SJ. Of course anything is possible, and once you bring out and announce your find to the public, the wolves will be howling.....

Absolutely. If someone in power can take something away from you, he will. It takes money (mordida) to keep on your feet and do a deal in Mexico. The bigger the deal, the more grease is required. Not a bad system, really - at least you can cut the red tape if you warm the correct palms.

 

[the blindbowman]

ok , lets look at it from my insight .

freddy crystal stold a two peice map from a sonora mexico small village , he ended up the same place as Ray dillman and i did , because i beleive the map freddy stold was copies of the stone tablets , the heart stone and trail stone ..
IMHO the only place freddy could have stold them from was Guadlupe of Santa Ana , where they confess the had the maps in 1912 and stated they had documents of Tayopa and i decoded the wording of Tayopa twice on the stones and it was spelled the same way .. the tayopa has two main legends i have read , one of the treasure trove list and the other of the acount of the massacre site ..and how it took place . i pionted out it could in fact fit the sites i was working on ...

so what is missing ...?

the tayopa mine was far older then we beleive it was it was IMHO a aztec site yet dateing to 1279 - 1325

we know dillman found a mazonic wax stamp put in the grave before 1519

we also know the man that made the stone tablets . did so before 1479 when aragon and castilla became spain ,as far back as 1240 thats when castilla was founded , if he stated this is castilla ora then he must have been from castilla ,
i know from the decodeing he spoke old portguese and vulgar latin from the northern italy area of sicily some time between 1295-1312


the fact remains the maps and treasure trove list were once togather in one area , comeing from Guadlupe of Santa Ana chruch and were old then ...1603 -1646 ...from the tayopa treasure list and tim haydocks legend

i still come back to the same logical concluetion . the two legends are in fact one legend ...me freddy and ray say the legend is that of montezuma's tomb ...we all agree on that yet i realized the utah site was to missled people away from the true site ...


as was the eastern trail to missled people like cortez and the southern trail to missled people like real de tayopa . i am not mislead easy . i have a vast range of study area yet i very seldom lose focus on my target dates and targets ...


so lets drop the how is it spelled BS and get on with the real legend ... if we found it spelled twicecoded and then spelled the same way at Santa ana , most likely we got the right spelling . "Tayopa " if we can date the Tayopa spelling to 1603 by the treasure trove list and the stone can be dated to 1279-1325 then IMHO the spelling is most likely Tayopa ...if you have any insight beyond the facts as i just layed them out i will be glad to hear you out .. but as the peices of the legned come more clear to me i see no related other spelling that relates the real tayopa spelled any other way then Tayopa

thats just my opioion ..

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI swe: you posted ---->

"I'd rather not speculate about something that does not exist",
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

snicker, snicker, snicke,r doesn't exst eh ? snicker

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings SWR and everyone,

SWR wrote:

If you cannot understand "I'd rather not speculate about something that does not exist", then anything else I type will be above your ability of comprehension, and a waste of my time.

Actually SWR what I don't understand is your attitude toward the whole subject matter. I have tried to understand your view but doubt that you have the patience/time to explain it so I won't bother you by asking further. If I were in your position, convinced that Tayopa did not exist, I would attempt to convince other treasure hunters of that as a fact, and explain my reasons why I did not believe it existed - however that is just my own idea as to what I would do, if I were in your position here. Many of your friends here are quite reasonable people whose opinions can be swayed by sound debate and backed with facts/figures. Of course the "true believer" cannot be swayed regardless of facts, but that is not the case with the majority here as far as I know. Not all of the members here are like me, (incapable of understanding everything you type) so not everything you type would be above their comprehension, and thus would not be a waste of your time. Surely you are not posting your replies here simply addressed to me, personally, as you noted in this post, you do converse with other members regularly right?

Regardless of what you should decide to post or not post, I wish you good luck and good hunting, I hope you (and everyone here) find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco