True Spelling

Dear Oro de Blanco;
Obviously, someone either misread or misconstrued my previous statement *sigh*. I stated that:
"Quartz is found pretty much everywhere on the planet."
Please, take note of the key word Q-U-A-R-T-Z. I did NOT state that beryl is located pretty much everywhere on the planet. Is this clear enough?
That quartz is located in many places on the planet, and amythest is sub-class of the element quartz, and that emeralds, which are a sub-class of the element beryl, therefore may be located in close proximity to one another and is not unusual at all.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

lamar said:
Dear Oro de Blanco;
Obviously, someone either misread or misconstrued my previous statement *sigh*. I stated that:
"Quartz is found pretty much everywhere on the planet."
Please, take note of the key word Q-U-A-R-T-Z. I did NOT state that beryl is located pretty much everywhere on the planet. Is this clear enough?
That quartz is located in many places on the planet, and amythest is sub-class of the element quartz, and that emeralds, which are a sub-class of the element beryl, therefore may be located in close proximity to one another and is not unusual at all.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Click to expand...

For what it's worth, your post was easily misinterpretted the way you worded it (at least to me as well)...

Dear Oro de Blanco;
What is so odd about beryl occurring in the same regions as quartz? Quartz is found pretty much everywhere on the planet.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Click to expand...

I read it as: Quartz is found pretty much everywhere on the planet + beryl occurs in same regions as quartz, therefore the obvious conclusion from that statement is that beryl is also found pretty much everywhere on the planet.

Perhaps it isn't so much a misinterpretation on the reader's end as it is the wording of the post?
 

OHIO: Beryl is not quartz, but it is found here, mostly in the form of beautiful large Agua Marines. I have heard rumors of some green Beryl being found nearby, but since it is on a claimed precious Metal mineral holding, I have not investigated -- yet. My curiosity is getting the best of me.

We also have precious Opal in a blueish base, but it has no Red. just blues and greens, nevertheless it is extremely beautiful.

I have a piece as large as an inch that is completely covered with a solid sheet of Ir ridescent Green which flashes like lighting. Fantastic.

As mentioned, also Amethyst of excellent color and clarity, but of small size.

Some small Rubies and Emeralds have been found in Placer workings.

Since I once worked as an assayer, I have carefully checked the various arroyo sands for pure silicon content since supplies were a bit difficult to get. Many times under a scope, small reddish, blueish, and greenish crystals could be clearly seen, I can only speculate what they were, since they were too small to have any commercial value, I newer followed them up.

Soooo no-one can truthfully say such and such a mineral or gem cannot exist some where, only that they have not found a commercial deposit so far, and that the composition of the area tends to be hostile for it's formation or deposit.

After all, who would expect to find a living SAINT, such as myself, on a Treasure Hunting forum?

Don Jose de La Mancha

P.S. Hush, you cotin pickin treasure hunters.
 

Real de Tayopa wrote:
Some small Rubies and Emeralds have been found in Placer workings
Click to expand...

May I ask how close, to your mines? Just a rough estimate will do (for me).

Real de Tayopa also wrote:
After all, who would expect to find a living SAINT, such as myself, on a Treasure Hunting forum?
Click to expand...

Hmm, well that all depends - for one might then ask, if you believe in ANGELS, then why should you be surprised when you MEET one? :o ;D :D ;)

Lamar, the interesting point in my opinion was beryl being found near Real de Tayopa's mines, which is one of the defining points to locate Topira of Coronado, Mendoza etc. Remember that the earliest reports of Topira included gemstones and specifically emeralds, which as you posted earlier are not found in any large commercial-type deposits in Mexico - however a placer deposit which is NON-commercial might have produced enough emeralds (especially over a great period of time) to have impressed Spanish explorers and led them to believe that a commercial sized deposit must be present when only a relatively poor placer deposit could have produced them. I still have a problem with the location to make it "fit" with Topira, especially the reference to the valley where the Indios of Topira lived - those narrow and rough barrancas of Real de Tayopa's mines seem unlikely as a place where a fair sized population could have lived for any length of time. Not that QUARTZ would be surprising, nor any kind of indication as to locating the site of Tayopa, Topira or any other legendary lost mine - unless the quartz had a very rich concentration of precious metals, then it very well could be an indication. I have never been convinced that Tayopa is one and the same with Topira, but am open to the possibility. Is that clear enough?

Oroblanco
 

Good Morning ORO : I apparently have been misleading the room on locations of the Beryl, and Opal. They are not found near Tayopa to my present knowledge, but here, near Alamos, some 60 air miles south.

The quartz at Tayopa consists of various types, including what is commonly called sugar quartz, i.e. Quartz that has had access to the surface , hence underwent rapid cooling and so never formed large crystals.

Metals id's at Tayopa complex so far basically include Au. Ag. Ba. Pb. etc., and especially the Pt. group

Don Jose de La Mancha.

p.s., I don't remember the exact name of the arroyos, but I was assaying for the Sabina mines located east of Navojoa near the upper left wing of the Macushari Dam. However most arroyos carry these crystals to an extent.

I had to scrounge for the assay materiel's, we even looked for poor dead cows to salvage their bones for Cuppels.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. @ $900 per ounce, get to cracking ORO.
 

Roy,

Roy,

It's hard to believe anyone is pounding around, today, still repeating the purpose driven rumors that were started by Marcos, Honorato, and Esteban...... almost 500 years later. The stories of the natives got bigger and better as Coronado searched farther and farther from the Spanish seat of power in Mexico City, until they ended up at Quivira in central Kansas. :o

During that long trip, not a single source of emeralds was found, nor a single city of gold. :'(

In the intervening years the search has continued. The "children of Coronado" have never given up the hope of finding the treasures that spurred Coronado's expedition over such a long and difficult trail of broken bodies and spirit.

[Pedro de Castaneda, at the very end of his story, wrote: "This will suffice to bring our narrative to a close. In all other matters, may the Almighty Lord of all things, God Omnipotent, who knows how and when these lands are to be discovered, determine for whom this good fortune is preserved.]

While his narrative was coming to a close, another was beginning and continues to this day, almost 1/2 a millennium later. You might surmise this story has....... legs.

Didn't mean to interrupt the flow. Nice thread.

Joe Ribaudo
 

Dear Oroblanco;
You stated:
"I have never been convinced that Tayopa is one and the same with Topira, but am open to the possibility. Is that clear enough?"

My response is thus:
No, my friend, it is not quite clear enough and I am still just a bit fuzzy on some of the finer points. Could you please explain further, and perhaps include a map or two? ;D
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

HOLA mi amigos,

I will address the several replies here, so I beg your indulgence with another long-winded post by Oroblanco....

Real de Tayopa wrote:
Good Morning ORO : I apparently have been misleading the room on locations of the Beryl, and Opal. They are not found near Tayopa to my present knowledge, but here, near Alamos, some 60 air miles south.
Click to expand...

My first impression from this horrifying new bit of information my friend is DRAT!!! :o :( :'( Here I was just starting to get visions of gorgeous green crystals to adorn my fat greedy fingers, and I learn they are NOT coming from your mines. Of course, I then have to wonder whether you are not simply protecting your own interests, with a bit of exaggeration about the distance from your mines! ;D :D ;) (JUST KIDDING) As I know you to be a dyed-in-the-blood prospector, you must have taken notice of these beryl discoveries as yet another titillating possibility of what could lie in your properties, in the bosom of the Earth, hidden from our eyes, just waiting for someone to finally bring them to light to enrich the world and adorn the ladies. ;) "Seek and ye shall find..." (Subtle hint..heh heh)

Real de Tayopa also wrote:
Metals id's at Tayopa complex so far basically include Au. Ag. Ba. Pb. etc., and especially the Pt. group


p.s. @ $900 per ounce, get to cracking ORO.
Click to expand...

Jose' you really REALLY know how to get a prospector's blood going now don't you! :o ;D I have never gone prospecting for platinum (or PGM's) in my life, though we did plan to go to Goodnews Bay (Alaska) and went so far as to buy the airline tickets, even had the dog packs all packed, but could not find any area that looked promising that was NOT already taken up and under mining claims. We did go a-looking for a reported platinum placer deposit in Yukon years ago, but found not a single color of the pretty white metal and instead got side-tracked onto Money creek. (The name was for the first prospector to locate a claim there, Anton Money, and yes there was a little gold there but nothing to get excited about.) We did a bit of research on the Stillwater complex in Montana, but I never could get hold of a sample of the actual ore. The way the PGM prices have been rising, my friend, you will find me on your doorstep with single jack in hand ready to work as soon as I can finish my responsibilities here and afford passage. However, I still cannot speak Spanish beyond enough to get into trouble..... :-[

(I do plan on meeting you some day, my friend, whether to go to work for you or just to sip coffee and try to get you to tell your own story.)

Cactusjumper wrote:
Roy,

It's hard to believe anyone is pounding around, today, still repeating the purpose driven rumors that were started by Marcos, Honorato, and Esteban...... almost 500 years later.
Click to expand...

Well my friend I don't know why that should be hard to believe, when we know that much more ancient tales continue to attract interest such as king Solomon's mines, the treasure of the Copper Scroll,the "Cave of Treasures" which antedates the Old Testament, the tomb of Genghis Khan, the treasure of the First Emperor of China and many others. Most historians dismiss the stories of Topira as just that, stories, but I think it is possible that it could be a true report, if perhaps garbled and/or exaggerated. (Especially that possibility, which occurs in a great many lost treasure tales.)

Cactusjumper also wrote:
During that long trip, not a single source of emeralds was found, nor a single city of gold.
Click to expand...

I am NOT convinced that Topira even existed, it is quite possible the tale was invented by Amerindians in the hope of luring the rapacious Conquistadores away and OUT of their own homes, as happened with Coronado viz Cibola and Quivira, as his guide even confessed. While your statement of "not a single course of emeralds was found" is correct as far as I know, it is reported that emeralds were presented to the Spaniards, more below.*

On the other hand, it is also possible that Topira has already been found and much worked, in the form of the many silver and gold mines in Durango that are (approximately) in the correct location, or at least a location that "could" fit the descriptions. In this case, the reported gemstones may not have even originated there, or may have been produced from small placer type deposits which would never pay enough for anyone to try to work them commercially, or the gemstone deposit(s) have yet to be discovered.

So yes, I am still "pounding around today" the old tale of Topira, even though I personally would not likely make an effort to try to locate it; there are many other lost treasures which we have better clues to help find - however IF I were to obtain an interesting clue or lead to follow up, I would sure enjoy tracking it down. For me, the treasure is in the search and discovery, not really in the dollars which would only evaporate quickly away anyway - but I hope you will keep this confession as well as my love for the poetry of Robert Service between us here and not tell anyone - I would not wish to cast doubts upon my reputation as a greedy, rapacious grave-robbing looter. ;)

Lamar wrote:
No, my friend, it is not quite clear enough and I am still just a bit fuzzy on some of the finer points. Could you please explain further, and perhaps include a map or two?
Click to expand...

I am unable to find a map depicting the SUPPOSED location of Topira. About the best I can do is maps showing the (supposed) route of Coronado.

http://www.americansouthwest.net/pdf/coronado-route-map.pdf
http://www.nps.gov/archive/coro/graphics/routemap.jpg

To explain my reasoning as to why I am not convinced that Tayopa is one and the same with Topira, my problems are as follows:

2) At Corazones the Indians gave Dorantes five emeralds,
shaped as arrow points, also six hundred hearts of deer, for which
latter reason the Spaniards called their settlement "Villa de los
Corazones."


(3) These Indians told them that the "emeralds" and tur-
quoises, which they gave them came from some very high moun-
tains toward the north, where they trafficked for them, where
there were villages of many people and very big houses
Click to expand...
(from Southwest Historical Quarterly online, http://www.tshaonline.org/publications/journals/shq/online/v028/n2/contrib_DIVL1327_print.html)

Then we have this description of Topira:

In the province of Topira there are no great cities, but the houses are built of stone, and are very good ; and within them the people have great store of gold, which is, as it were, lost, because they know not what use to put it to. They wear emeralds and other precious jewels upon their breasts, are valiant and have very strong armor made of silver, fashioned after the shapes of beasts. Beyond Topira there is still another country, the people whereof wear on their bodies gold, emeralds, and other precious stones, and are commonly served in gold and silver, wherewith they cover their houses ; and the chief men wear great chains of gold, well wrought, about their necks, and are apparelled with painted garments, and have a great store of wild kine.
Click to expand...
(from a letter written by Coronado to the viceroy Mendoza, bearing date March 8, 1539.)
(Please note the slightly different description here too, NOT of "golden houses" of Cibola, as told by the lying priest Fray Marcos, but of a "great store of gold" within their houses. Quite a difference, in my opinion.)

Here is an extract which better describes the location of Topira, and note that today the location of the key landmark Corazones is still debated: quote

Their entry thus prepared, Fray Marcos de Niza and his companion [Onorato]
left Culiacán ten or twelve days later, with the Black [Estéban], some slaves and
the Indians that I had given them. And, as I had known about a province called
Topira, located beyond the mountains, I had commanded the governor to learn
what it was, considering this as very important, and he had decided to go there
himself to see it. He [Vázquez de Coronado] had given orders to the said friar
that, from this place of the mountain [Topira], he [Marcos] took the direction of a
city called Los Corazones, 120 leagues from Culiacán, to meet him. [13]

From this letter we conclude that if Vázquez de Coronado arrived in Culiacán in early to mid-January 1539, then the Indian emissaries who returned after twenty days would have arrived in Culiacán between the last days of January and mid-February, 1539. If Marcos then spent three or four days with the Indians and waited another ten or twelve days more before leaving, he could not have departed for Cíbola earlier than late February or early March. While he was under orders to seek Cíbola, he and the governor also wanted to reconnoiter the district of Topira, which is believed to be the region called Topía in modern Durango. Topira, in the mountains northeast of Culiacán, was said to be rich in metals, which rumors, though exaggerated, may have had some foundation since the area has a history of mining. The conclusion of Mendoza's letter suggests that Vázquez de Coronado planned to go to Topira and to rendezvous with Fray Marcos at the town of Corazones, (near modern Urés, Sonora) which had been reported by Cabeza de Vaca, Esteban, and their companions in 1536. This meeting never occurred.
Click to expand...

From : http://home.tele2.fr/mnallino/Arizona/Arizona.pdf (A Supposed Franciscan Exploration of Arizona in 1538: The Origins of a Myth; Michel Nallino and William K. Hartmann, 2000-2001)

Now most historians locate Corazones at or near the present site of Ures, but this is not yet proven as far as I know.

If we compare these points with the descriptions of Tayopa, we find several problems - for at Tayopa, the Real (village) was built only AFTER the discovery of the mines, and no stone houses or ruins were reported as found when the mines were first discovered - plus Tayopa is almost on the state lines of Chihuahua/Sonora, not in Durango as most thought Topira to be. I am not aware of anyone finding emeralds or turquoise at Tayopa, which is why I got so interested when our mutual friend Real de Tayopa (Jose') mentioned the finding of Beryls nearby. I am sure there are enough descriptions of Tayopa here in other threads and elsewhere online to compare to the reports of Topira. Of course I could be completely mistaken, Tayopa might well be Topira as some today claim, and thus the old tale of Topira is already proven true, just that I am too slow of wit to comprehend the fact of it. I did not intend to try to convince you or anyone else that Tayopa IS Topira, nor do I intend to convince the opposite case to be true - as I am not convinced that either possibility is an absolute fact, YET. Which brings me to my next question, which I really ought to have included in my reply to our friend Real de Tayopa,

By the by - mi amigo Real de Tayopa, by any chance have you or anyone working for you, ever found any of that glorious blue stone known as Turquoise, on, in or near your mines at Tayopa? Just curious, of course.... ;D ;D :D ;) ::) :o I promise I won't tell anyone! :D ;D

Good luck and good hunting mi amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
 

Oroblanco said:
HOLA mi amigos,
...
(3) These Indians told them that the "emeralds" and tur-
quoises, which they gave them came from some very high moun-
tains toward the north, where they trafficked for them, where
there were villages of many people and very big houses

(from Southwest Historical Quarterly online, http://www.tshaonline.org/publications/journals/shq/online/v028/n2/contrib_DIVL1327_print.html)
....

Good luck and good hunting mi amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
Click to expand...

N 32°53'29", W 108°09'46". The coordinates fall upon a natural feature on a mountain known in the past as Santo Nino de Atocha. The turquoise was abundant 10 miles SE of these coordinates, along with native copper at the original site of the Santa Rita mine, still in production today. The mineralized natural cavern from which the emeralds came is within a half mile radius of the coordinates. This cavern is the source of the emeralds described in the Cabeza de Vaca narrative, but also contained large quantities of native gold. Estavanico, with the assistance of the natives, led the Franciscan Marcos de Niza there in 1539. de Niza returned to Mexico and later led the dupe Coronado astray, taking the rap as a liar. The mineral deposit was exploited by 'other Europeans', led by a 'Royal Engineer' and including German miners and various professional soldiers ca 1541-1545. The emeralds went south and a majority of the gold was cached in numerous locations nearby, most of which presumably still exist. One was unexpectedly recovered about four years ago by the Phelps Dodge Corporation and quietly disposed of through a California marine salvage attorney.
 

Good afternoon Ed: I honestly haven't been ignoring you, just thinking, no conclusions yet sincce there are various ways to interpretate the marks. Incidentally does that pale blue mineralization in the mine continue? If so have it assayed.

Don Jose d eLa Mancha
 

HI Beth's private properrty: You posted --->

(I do plan on meeting you some day, my friend, whether to go to work for you or just to sip coffee and try to get you to tell your own story.)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This may be sooner than you think, but please remember those famous words about seeking a wife,

"The seeking be be nicer than the knowing".

Incidentally on your remark " go to work for you", replace the for with "with".

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Real de Tayopa said:
Good afternoon Ed: I honestly haven't been ignoring you, just thinking, no conclusions yet sincce there are various ways to interpretate the marks. Incidentally does that pale blue mineralization in the mine continue? If so have it assayed.

Don Jose d eLa Mancha
Click to expand...

The blue must be a copper compound of some type, ie... chrysacola, turquoise, malachite, etc... sure looks pretty even from the distance of the photo.
 

Ed,

Very, very nice picture.

Is it just these old eyes, or is the man standing on blue vegitation? there seems to be a long piece of a blue branch, just to his left.

Hopefully you will set me straight here.

Thanks,

Joe
 

cactusjumper said:
Ed,

Very, very nice picture.

Is it just these old eyes, or is the man standing on blue vegitation? there seems to be a long piece of a blue branch, just to his left.
e
Hopefully you will set me straight here.

Thanks,

Joe
Click to expand...

I saw that too Joe, but I decided it looked more like part of a plastic tarp or something along those lines. Guess Ed will have to fill us in as you suggested.
 

Just to get back to Bowman's topic.... :), I made this statement on another forum, and received no comments:

"There are other examples of Indians making formal charges, against the Jesuits, to Spanish officials. In many cases, those officials were looking for Jesuit misconduct, as the Jesuits and other Catholic Orders, were the only forces standing in the path of total slavery of the native populations. Perhaps someone has the one document where Jesuit mining is alleged by the Indians."

Why do you suppose no Indian ever made such a charge? I know what the answers will be, but they will all defy the facts......and logic.

Anyone care to give it a shot? Before you do, you should consider that there is a good deal of non-Jesuit documentation concerning (official) Indian charges against the Jesuits. None of those complaints included being forced to work in Jesuit mines.

Joe Ribaudo
 

Paul,

I saw the tarp/plastic, and that's exactly what it appears to be.

Blowing the picture up around 200% really shows a lot of detail around the man's feet. What would be interesting, would be a picture of the ground just below the wall. If you were working that wall, the blue stuff on the ground would seem to be what you would be hauling off.

Ed,

Did you get a picture of the ore on the ground, or a piece taken from the lode.....close up?

Joe Ribaudo
 

Cactusjumper wrote:
Why do you suppose no Indian ever made such a charge? I know what the answers will be, but they will all defy the facts......and logic.
Click to expand...

Well Joe I am puzzled as to why you should be fishing for a 'bite' if you already know the answer and have concluded that any such answers must defy the facts and logic? Care to explain? Thank you in advance,

Cactusjumper also wrote:
None of those complaints included being forced to work in Jesuit mines.
Click to expand...

Joe have you personally examined each and every complaint filed in every possible archive in the Americas and Europe, so as to be able to make that statement, or are you saying that as far as you know, no one has ever reported finding such a complaint that included being forced to work in Jesuit mines? Just looking for clarification. Again thank you in advance.

Ed that blue looks suspiciously like turquoise to my eye, and the workings appear to be of Indios, not Europeans or if Europeans they were using ancient (fire-plus-water) methods to extract it. Have you found any Indian artifacts nearby? It is quite an interesting site, whether that is indeed turquoise or another copper-mineral, and well worth further investigations AND several assays at minimum. NICE photos and a great discovery! Congratulations mi amigo!
your friend,
Oroblanco
 

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