HOLA mi amigos,
I will address the several replies here, so I beg your indulgence with another long-winded post by Oroblanco....
Real de Tayopa wrote:
Good Morning ORO : I apparently have been misleading the room on locations of the Beryl, and Opal. They are not found near Tayopa to my present knowledge, but here, near Alamos, some 60 air miles south.
My first impression from this horrifying new bit of information my friend is
DRAT!!!
Here I was just starting to get visions of gorgeous green crystals to adorn my fat greedy fingers, and I learn they are NOT coming from your mines. Of course, I then have to wonder whether you are not simply protecting your own interests, with a bit of exaggeration about the distance from your mines!
(JUST KIDDING) As I know you to be a dyed-in-the-blood prospector, you must have taken notice of these beryl discoveries as yet another titillating possibility of what could lie in your properties, in the bosom of the Earth, hidden from our eyes, just waiting for someone to finally bring them to light to enrich the world and adorn the ladies.
"Seek and ye shall find..." (Subtle
hint..heh heh)
Real de Tayopa also wrote:
Metals id's at Tayopa complex so far basically include Au. Ag. Ba. Pb. etc., and especially the Pt. group
p.s. @ $900 per ounce, get to cracking ORO.
Jose' you really
REALLY know how to get a prospector's blood going now don't you!
I have never gone prospecting for platinum (or PGM's) in my life, though we did plan to go to Goodnews Bay (Alaska) and went so far as to buy the airline tickets, even had the dog packs all packed, but could not find
any area that looked promising that was NOT already taken up and under mining claims. We did go a-looking for a reported platinum placer deposit in Yukon years ago, but found not a
single color of the pretty white metal and instead got side-tracked onto Money creek. (The name was for the first prospector to locate a claim there, Anton Money, and yes there was a little gold there but nothing to get excited about.) We did a bit of research on the Stillwater complex in Montana, but I never could get hold of a sample of the actual ore. The way the PGM prices have been rising, my friend, you will find me on your doorstep with single jack in hand ready to work as soon as I can finish my responsibilities here and afford passage. However, I still cannot speak Spanish beyond enough to get into trouble.....
(I do plan on meeting you some day, my friend, whether to go to work for you or just to sip coffee and try to get you to tell your own story.)
Cactusjumper wrote:
Roy,
It's hard to believe anyone is pounding around, today, still repeating the purpose driven rumors that were started by Marcos, Honorato, and Esteban...... almost 500 years later.
Well my friend I don't know why that should be hard to believe, when we know that much more ancient tales continue to attract interest such as king Solomon's mines, the treasure of the Copper Scroll,the "Cave of Treasures" which antedates the Old Testament, the tomb of Genghis Khan, the treasure of the First Emperor of China and many others. Most historians dismiss the stories of Topira as just that, stories, but I
think it is
possible that it could be a true report, if perhaps garbled and/or exaggerated. (Especially that possibility, which occurs in a great many lost treasure tales.)
Cactusjumper also wrote:
During that long trip, not a single source of emeralds was found, nor a single city of gold.
I am
NOT convinced that Topira even existed, it is quite possible the tale was
invented by Amerindians in the hope of luring the rapacious Conquistadores away and OUT of their own homes, as happened with Coronado viz Cibola and Quivira, as his guide even confessed. While your statement of "not a single course of emeralds was found" is correct as far as I know,
it is reported that emeralds were presented to the Spaniards, more below.*
On the other hand, it is also possible that Topira has already been found and much worked, in the form of the many silver and gold mines in Durango that are (approximately) in the correct location, or at least a location that "could" fit the descriptions. In this case, the reported gemstones may not have even originated there, or may have been produced from small placer type deposits which would never pay enough for anyone to try to work them commercially, or the gemstone deposit(s) have yet to be discovered.
So yes, I am still "pounding around today" the old tale of Topira, even though I personally would not likely make an effort to try to locate it; there are many other lost treasures which we have better clues to help find - however IF I were to obtain an interesting clue or lead to follow up, I would sure enjoy tracking it down. For me, the treasure is in
the search and discovery, not really in the dollars which would only evaporate quickly away anyway - but I hope you will keep this confession as well as my love for the poetry of Robert Service between us here and
not tell anyone - I would not wish to cast doubts upon my reputation as a greedy, rapacious grave-robbing looter.
Lamar wrote:
No, my friend, it is not quite clear enough and I am still just a bit fuzzy on some of the finer points. Could you please explain further, and perhaps include a map or two?
I am unable to find a map depicting the SUPPOSED location of Topira. About the best I can do is maps showing the (supposed) route of Coronado.
http://www.americansouthwest.net/pdf/coronado-route-map.pdf
http://www.nps.gov/archive/coro/graphics/routemap.jpg
To explain my reasoning as to why I am not convinced that Tayopa is one and the same with Topira, my problems are as follows:
2) At Corazones the Indians gave Dorantes five emeralds,
shaped as arrow points, also six hundred hearts of deer, for which
latter reason the Spaniards called their settlement "Villa de los
Corazones."
(3) These Indians told them that the "emeralds" and tur-
quoises, which they gave them came from some very high moun-
tains toward the north, where they trafficked for them, where
there were villages of many people and very big houses
(from Southwest Historical Quarterly online,
http://www.tshaonline.org/publications/journals/shq/online/v028/n2/contrib_DIVL1327_print.html)
Then we have this description of Topira:
In the province of Topira there are no great cities, but the houses are built of stone, and are very good ; and within them the people have great store of gold, which is, as it were, lost, because they know not what use to put it to. They wear emeralds and other precious jewels upon their breasts, are valiant and have very strong armor made of silver, fashioned after the shapes of beasts. Beyond Topira there is still another country, the people whereof wear on their bodies gold, emeralds, and other precious stones, and are commonly served in gold and silver, wherewith they cover their houses ; and the chief men wear great chains of gold, well wrought, about their necks, and are apparelled with painted garments, and have a great store of wild kine.
(from a letter written by Coronado to the viceroy Mendoza, bearing date March 8, 1539.)
(Please note
the slightly different description here too,
NOT of "golden houses" of Cibola, as told by the lying priest Fray Marcos, but of a "
great store of gold" within their houses. Quite a difference, in my opinion.)
Here is an extract which better describes the location of Topira, and note that today the location of the key landmark Corazones is still debated: quote
Their entry thus prepared, Fray Marcos de Niza and his companion [Onorato]
left Culiacán ten or twelve days later, with the Black [Estéban], some slaves and
the Indians that I had given them. And, as I had known about a province called
Topira, located beyond the mountains, I had commanded the governor to learn
what it was, considering this as very important, and he had decided to go there
himself to see it. He [Vázquez de Coronado] had given orders to the said friar
that, from this place of the mountain [Topira], he [Marcos] took the direction of a
city called Los Corazones, 120 leagues from Culiacán, to meet him. [13]
From this letter we conclude that if Vázquez de Coronado arrived in Culiacán in early to mid-January 1539, then the Indian emissaries who returned after twenty days would have arrived in Culiacán between the last days of January and mid-February, 1539. If Marcos then spent three or four days with the Indians and waited another ten or twelve days more before leaving, he could not have departed for Cíbola earlier than late February or early March. While he was under orders to seek Cíbola, he and the governor also wanted to reconnoiter the district of Topira, which is believed to be the region called Topía in modern Durango. Topira, in the mountains northeast of Culiacán, was said to be rich in metals, which rumors, though exaggerated, may have had some foundation since the area has a history of mining. The conclusion of Mendoza's letter suggests that Vázquez de Coronado planned to go to Topira and to rendezvous with Fray Marcos at the town of Corazones, (near modern Urés, Sonora) which had been reported by Cabeza de Vaca, Esteban, and their companions in 1536. This meeting never occurred.
From :
http://home.tele2.fr/mnallino/Arizona/Arizona.pdf (A Supposed Franciscan Exploration of Arizona in 1538: The Origins of a Myth; Michel Nallino and William K. Hartmann, 2000-2001)
Now most historians locate Corazones at or near the present site of Ures, but this is not yet proven as far as I know.
If we compare these points with the descriptions of Tayopa, we find several problems - for at Tayopa, the Real (village) was built only AFTER the discovery of the mines, and no stone houses or ruins were reported as found when the mines were first discovered - plus Tayopa is
almost on the state lines of Chihuahua/Sonora, not in Durango as most thought Topira to be. I am not aware of anyone finding emeralds or turquoise at Tayopa, which is why I got so interested when our mutual friend Real de Tayopa (Jose') mentioned the finding of Beryls nearby. I am sure there are enough descriptions of Tayopa here in other threads and elsewhere online to compare to the reports of Topira. Of course I could be completely mistaken, Tayopa might well be Topira as some today claim, and thus the old tale of Topira is already proven true, just that I am too slow of wit to comprehend the fact of it. I did not intend to try to convince you or anyone else that Tayopa IS Topira, nor do I intend to convince the opposite case to be true - as I am not convinced that either possibility is an absolute fact,
YET. Which brings me to my next question, which I really ought to have included in my reply to our friend Real de Tayopa,
By the by - mi amigo Real de Tayopa, by any chance have you or anyone working for you, ever found any of that glorious blue stone known as Turquoise, on, in or near your mines at Tayopa? Just curious, of course....
I promise I won't tell anyone!
Good luck and good hunting mi amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
, I made this statement on another forum, and received no comments:
