True Spelling

Oro - I also agree with your comments. Of course we're all a bit biased here being that we're at least treasure hunters "at heart" even if some of us aren't actively searching for anything.

One statement you made is something I've felt for a long time as well...

I have serious doubts about the wisdom of bestowing anything whatsoever to the Smithsonian Institute, considering they already have their display areas filled and their basements and warehouses are overflowing with artifacts that as a result are NEVER shown to the public. Cry If you intend on donating any found treasures to a museum, I would sooner see it go to the local museum in the region where it is found than to be shipped to some large museum which is already overloaded with relics and artifacts to the point that they sell off many donated items just to be rid of them.
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I've never understood the logic or sense of artifacts being stored to never be seen by the public (in many cases). I too would prefer that a historical find be displayed by a local/regional museum if donated anywhere. I have found small things while metal detecting that probably have some historical value, but honestly, how many civil war bullets, arrowheads, etc... can a museum catalog and collect before they have enough? I can tell you that I have looked at my finds, showed off my finds to friends and coworkers and researched many of them myself likely much more than what would have ever happened to that item had I donated it to a historical society. I feel they have brought enjoyment and "value" to more lives in this way than they would boxed up in a moldy basement somewhere.

I've never been fortunate to find anything with any real value, but when I look at the items, they have value to ME and I see stories about each one in my mind and to me that's important.

There is a standing notion that treasure hunters/detectorists are no better than thieves who prey on unfortunate victims. I doubt that label will ever disappear, and in some cases, I'm sure it's valid, but imho it can't be used as a blanket statement because there are many of us who it doesn't fit.
 

Good evening Mein Amigo Lamar: Yes I understand precisely what you were, and are, saying. I was just posting a tongue in cheek remark on the fact that in a left handed way, you were apparently admitting to the possibility of tayopa actually extisting, which it does. hehehe. Similar to Father Polzer's last em's to me.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Thank you for the kind sentiments my friends, I am sure that others could have said it better but I hope that some day metal detectorists and treasure hunters can become allies with the archaeologists and historians, as we are really seeking the same things.

For a single example of what it means when a found treasure is seized BY FORCE may I suggest that anyone interested read over the transcript for the hearing Roxas vs Marcos: (regarding the Golden Buddha and Gen Yamasheeta's treasure, of which Roxas had found a good cache)

quote:
3. Arrest and torture

On May 18, 1971, Roxas was arrested in Cabantuan City by three men in civilian clothing. Roxas testified that the men told him "to go with them to make a negotiation with the President." They also reassured him, "Don't be afraid. We are under Malacanang[(4)] -- you know, we are under Malacanang agent. We can make a negotiation to the President, and nothing more." The men took him to the home of Colonel Ponciano Gonzales.

There, an individual identified as Colonel Olivas punched Roxas in the stomach five times. When Roxas asked him why he was being beaten, Colonel Olivas responded, "You're mentioning the name of the President[.]" One of the men then said, "We must report to the President that Rogelio Roxas is in our custody." Colonel Olivas placed a telephone call, during which he appeared to Roxas to be speaking to Ferdinand, because he addressed the other party as "Mr. President."

Subsequently, Roxas was taken to the constabulary headquarters in San Fernando, Pampanga. Once there, a number of soldiers led him to a dark room, where he was shown a picture of his wife and children and told that he must cooperate if he wanted to see them again. The soldiers ordered Roxas to "pinpoint those senators, that they pay me to implicate the name of the president." Roxas refused to sign such a statement, and the soldiers responded by shocking him with wires attached to a large battery. The soldiers also interrogated Roxas about the location of the remaining treasure; however, he refused to divulge this information. The soldiers continued to shock him for several hours and, on one occasion, burned him with cigarettes.

Roxas was then taken to the residence of a judge, where he was directed to sign an affidavit. However, because of the torture he had endured, he was unable to clasp his hand around the pen, and, therefore, could not sign. The soldiers then transported Roxas to a hotel in Angeles City. There, he was questioned again about the location of the treasure. When he refused to respond, he was beaten with a rubber mallet until he passed out. After the beatings, he noticed a great deal of damage to his right eye and ear, neither of which ever fully healed.

Roxas was kept in a room at the hotel for two weeks, during which time he was repeatedly ordered to sign yet another affidavit. This affidavit averred that the raid in his house had been performed "in a peaceful manner" and that the members of the raiding party had possessed no automatic weapons as had been reported in the press. When Roxas finally signed the affidavit, he was brought back to the city court in Baguio City and ordered to point at the buddha statue while being photographed and to identify gold bars as those taken from his home.

That night, Roxas picked the lock on the window of his room and escaped. After finding refuge at his sister's home, Roxas contacted a senator and was again asked to testify before the senate, which he did on June 30, 1971. In his deposition in the instant case, Roxas testified that, during the June 30, 1971 hearing, he told the senators about being tortured.(5)

After the senate hearing, Roxas returned to Baguio City. Once there, he received a letter from Cesar Dumlao, a finance officer at the Malacanang, requesting a meeting on behalf of Ferdinand. Roxas met with Dumlao and was shown a letter, which indicated that Ferdinand was offering to pay him five million pesos.(6) Roxas was instructed to return the next day; however, he did not report back because he became frightened.

One week after his return to Baguio City, Roxas was arrested for failing to appear at a hearing on an illegal weapons charge that had been pending against him since January 28, 1971. He was brought before a judge, who ordered him incarcerated as a result of his default.

On August 21, 1971, Senator Osmena sent an attorney to bail Roxas out of jail. Roxas traveled with the attorney to Manila to meet with Senator Osmena. Senator Osmena asked Roxas to speak at a political rally that evening. Roxas agreed, but he was unable to speak because the rally was bombed before he could start. Roxas ran away and went into hiding for almost one year.

When Roxas finally returned to his Baguio City home in July 1972, he was immediately arrested by two men, who represented to him that they were from the CIS. These men took Roxas to a naval base in the province of Zambales, where he was confined in the stockade. While there, Roxas was questioned by Provincial Commander Rodolfo Patalinghod about his discovery of the golden buddha.

On September 21, 1972, Ferdinand declared martial law in the Philippines; the order remained in effect until 1983. After the declaration, General Fabian Ver visited Roxas in his cell. General Ver admitted that he had been among the raiding party at Roxas's house. He also told Roxas that there had been "an order to kill [Roxas] by the military," but that the order had been canceled when it was discovered that Roxas was a member of the Church of Christ. He advised Roxas to keep quiet about his case, in light of the fact that martial law had been declared.

In January 1973, Roxas was transferred to a prison camp in Baguio City and tried on the charges of possession of an illegal firearm and unlawfully firing a revolver into the air. He was convicted of both counts by the Third Branch of the City Court of Baguio and sentenced, in connection with the first charge, to an "indeterminate penalty of imprisonment ranging from One (1) year and One (1) day as minimum to Four (4) years as maximum" and, in connection with the second, to a fine. Judgment was entered on January 31, 1973. During his incarceration, Roxas was beaten and questioned about the location of the treasure on two occasions by a man known as Colonel Gemoto -- who identified himself as a member of the "Task Force Restoration" -- accompanied by representatives of the CIS.
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Perhaps I have developed a rather anti-government-authority bias over the years, but it is in light of many of this types of abuse. You can read the transcript online at:

http://www.hawaii.gov/jud/20606.htm

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco
 

Dear group;
And now for my rebuttal. It seems that nobody has yet to consider the actual laborers and craftsman who fashioned these marvelous treasures. Yes gentlemen, I am speaking of the natives of the region. These poor people labored as slaves for generations, deep in the bowels of the unforgiving Earth, to wrest free the elements which their Spanish masters so coveted.

These poor ignorant people labored and died forgotten by history, and now, through greed and selfishness are to remain buried by the sands of time, all because a single individual thought of only of themself instead of the peoples who actually paid the heaviest toll for all of this wealth. This is shameful and criminal in the extreme.

And if the treasure were to be discovered in Mexico, then trust me, the Mexican people would feel as if the discoverer were in fact stealing from them, not so much the monetary value of the treasure, but the historical value of it. They've been robbed of their heritage for centuries and now some greedy person wishes to steal a bit more from them.

This is not a question of govermental controls, it is a question of doing the right thing. The one fact which cannot be denied is that all all treasure caches in the colonial New World have quite significant historical value attached to them and by looting the sites and hording the caches, this historical value is destroyed permanently.

I am appalled at the cavalier attitudes towards this delicate subject. Gentlemen, what you are seeking is not a nickel in the local park, it's a treasure of vast historical proportions and to even think about selling it piecemeal is a serious crime against mankind.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Dear group;
Blindbowman so thoughtfully us with this gem:

"this is a aztec site and later found by templar between the years of 1279-1325 and after that found in 1435 "

That settles it! The treasure belongs to the Masonic Lodge! We can all go home now.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

lamar said:
Dear group;
Blindbowman so thoughtfully us with this gem:

"this is a aztec site and later found by templar between the years of 1279-1325 and after that found in 1435 "

That settles it! The treasure belongs to the Masonic Lodge! We can all go home now.
Your friend;
LAMAR
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i dont think i would go home yet .......(6.25% )



time is a scroll , it unfolds and you never know what it means , unless you unfold it and look before hand...but you can never touch time it self ...!
 

Damas & Caballeros: Lamar you p[osted --->

. I DO have a claim to the alledged treasure trove of Tayopa, as much as you or anybody else has. If there is in a fact a treasure, then it's historical impact will far exceed it's current monetary value, no matter how little or how much that may be.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

To a point I tend to agree with you, However beyond a bar or two for central exhibition, what useful purpose would there be beyond just being effectively hoarded again?
=========
The treasures in question have a history of great depth and therefore it belongs to everybody, not just the person who finds it. I feel that if the treasure is in uncovered, then it should be imediately seized by the US government, willingly if possible, forcibly if not and a paltry, token sum paid to the lucky finder.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Why a paltry sum?
================

Afterwards the treasure should become a part of the Smithsonian Museum for all to view. It's only a shallow minded, selfish individual who would horde such a find of incredible historic value for themself.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The entire treasure of say 100 bars? hmmmm. I pre suppose that I can apply the same reasoning to the Archives in Rome etc., , they belong to the world to see in it's entirety also , no? Soooooo, they should be all seized by Italy and exposed in their entirety in a museum.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Dear Oro de Blanco;
If Roxas' claims are even partially true, then he got EXACTLY what he deserved, IMVHO. Let's put the events in question into the proper perspective for just a moment, shall we? National treasures were stolen by a Japanese General during WWII from various conquered nations of the Orient. This act however, does NOT mean the valuables in question were without owners!

The owners were the people from which the valuables were taken from originally. That Roxas attempted to retrieve these valuables and then horde them in his own home is proof positive of his scurrulous intentions. He was trying to steal something from a group of bigger theives than himself and he got caught. That he was tortured without mercy is only right and just, as his crime was heinous in nature and execution.

Had he done the RIGHT THING and IMMEDIATELY after locating the treasure horde promptly contacted the respective governments of the USA, Australia, Great Britain, Japan, and New Zealand, they would have insured that the original owners in turn had received their rightful property back. Instead, this scoundrel thought only of himself, and having been caught redhanded, he then had the audacity to take the former rulers of the Phillipine Islands into US court.

The punishment in this particular case fit the crime, if there was in fact any treasure to begin with, or any torture was meted out. And now, to what end has befallen Roxas? He died broke and beaten and the treasure which he lusted after is now gone, quite possibly forever. This is a crime for which no punishment is severe enough and it was HE would brought it upon himself.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

lamar said:
The owners were the people from which the valuables were taken from originally.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

According to this belief then Spain has no jurisdiction or right to any precious metals etc., that might lie in the sunken ruins of any of their ships.
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

That Roxas attempted to retrieve these valuables and then horde them in his own home is proof positive of his scurrulous intentions. He was trying to steal something from a group of bigger theives than himself and he got caught.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Isn't this normal international practice among countries, Especially Spain and her "former" colonies?
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

That he was tortured without mercy is only right and just, as his crime was heinous in nature and execution.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Spoken like a true believer, sigh. However, I somehow don't think, hope, that you were /are serious.

Don Jose de La Mancha
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frist it was the jesuits , now its Roxas' claims ,what happen to the correct spelling of Tayopa . ho thats right lamar is still trying to distrack you guys ...
 

HI BB, actually all and any information relating to Tayopa is extremely interresting to me, I rather suspect that it should be for you also.

For my part, most phases of the Tayopa factor simply cannot be adequately covered with a single post designation, so i certainly am for any data on Tayopa, or any related thing, to be freely posted.

Naturally the idea that the Jesuits never did any mining is of great importance, but so far our Friend Lamar has failed utterly to convince me.

Perhaps it is because of the data that I have which hasn't been, nor can it be posted yet. I apologize to him and the room for this, but it is essential that they remain with me until Tayopa is finally fully & legally on it's way.

It will remain in my memory banks until Tayopa is actively operating or I will take it to the grave with me.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Ed T said:
Hello All,
I did not get to do all that much down south this year, though I did drink lots of beer. I also tried to post some pics I took while down there but I was unsuccessful, oh well.
I also came within a half hour drive of Real de Tayopa while driving down the 15 through Navojoa. Navojoa is a nice little town.
Does anyone know what a 8 with a cross means? I came across this shadow image while checking out that one site I had mentioned with the images on rocks.
I hope you all had as much fun as I had over the last two weeks.

Ed T
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Glad to hear you had a good trip! Work on getting those photos posted somehow - we all enjoy pictures!! :)
 

Real de Tayopa said:
HI BB, actually all and any information relating to Tayopa is extremely interresting to me, I rather suspect that it should be for you also.

For my part, most phases of the Tayopa factor simply cannot be adequately covered with a single post designation, so i certainly am for any data on Tayopa, or any related thing, to be freely posted.

Naturally the idea that the Jesuits never did any mining is of great importance, but so far our Friend Lamar has failed utterly to convince me.

Perhaps it is because of the data that I have which hasn't been, nor can it be posted yet. I apologize to him and the room for this, but it is essential that they remain with me until Tayopa is finally fully & legally on it's way.

It will remain in my memory banks until Tayopa is actively operating or I will take it to the grave with me.

Don Jose de La Mancha
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I understand your feeling this way Real, I truly do, however I would hope that should your Tayopa never go into operation, you would find some way to pass on your knowledge to a trusted friend or family member at some point in your life - if for no other reason than to give someone else an opportunity to fulfill the dreams you started.

I think back to the opportunities I should have taken advantage of when I was a young kid interested in history, searching for lost "treasures" etc... Old family members I should have spent more time talking with while they were alive and places I should have searched for arrowheads and other things and I'm saddened that I let those chances slip me by.

I recently got back from a trip back home to Wisconsin for the holidays and drove past the old farm that my great great aunt and uncle used to own years ago. I have fond memories of spending hours digging through the old "dump" in the woods behind the house, scrounging around the barn and sheds looking for items of interest and just generally enjoying the area. After they passed away I was lucky enough to be able to pick one item of theirs to have as a keepsake - I chose a beautiful copper spearhead they had found while working the farm fields and will have it until I pass it on to someone else.

The stone home is still standing although it's been "renovated" and has lost much of it's charm. The barn and sheds are no longer there and the fields and woods I hunted in have been turned into row after row of identical duplexes running right up next to the old farm house. I couldn't help but shed a tear to see what progress did to a place so dear to my heart. As I said though, I didn't spend enough time talking with them when I should have, and I believe there was likely a great deal of Winnebago Indian artifacts that will never see the light of day from their fields.

I hope you have luck in opening Tayopa and fulfilling your dreams, but if not, I encourage you to not let that dream die.
 

Greetings,

SWR you have to be kidding. False referencing? I suppose the court case never happened? The fact that Imelda got away with it surely does not reflect honor upon our courts. Or perhaps you agree with Lamar, and think Roxas "got what he deserved" by being beaten and tortured?

Lamar you are becoming crystal clear, in that you see a treasure hunter is a "looter" and hold that it is perfectly alright to torture someone. Perhaps you are a Jesuit after all. I can surmise that you did not read the court documents or you would have known that Roxas was in fact operating within the laws of the Philippines when his treasure was ILLEGALLY seized by Marcos.

A treasure is a treasure, when it can be restored to original owners, that is great. When it has been lost for decades or centuries, and someone expends the time, money and effort (and endures the risks) there is no excuse for that "lucky finder" NOT to have full and legal possession of his discoveries. Having treasures seized by governments does no benefit to the history of the people, nor to the people - compared to the effect when an individual makes such a find and then SPENDS it, thus feeding more real money into the economy and with widespread benefits. But to folks like Lamar, they would rather NOT see anyone benefit by their own efforts and expenses, it is "better" to have all such treasures vanish into the voids of government and museum basements.

Lamar, since you are such an advocate of the "return" of ill-gotten gains, how do you feel about the idea of having the Vatican return all the gold it received from Nazi Germany during WWII? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco
 

Oroblanco said:
....Lamar you are becoming crystal clear, in that you see a treasure hunter is a "looter" and hold that it is perfectly alright to torture someone. Perhaps you are a Jesuit after all....
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Mole. Information fisherman.
 

Good Morning SWR: your post on the Marcos/Roxas case reminds me of another fairly recent case of justice, I believe it was / is referred to as the "O.J. Simpson" case.

So apparently Emelda simply had a far better lawyer, not justice on her side.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Lamar, you posted ---->

token sum paid to the lucky finder.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

LUCKY??

In the case of Tayopa the search was started in 1955 and continued off and on ever since. the results were not "LUCKY" but due to an enormous amount of personal sacrifice and effort.

I have spent weeks and once months at a time without any contact with another human.

I have traveled by foot, mule, 4 wheel drive vehicles , aircraft and helicopter.

I have existed on old tortillas, beans, and occasionally cheese or an unfortunate small animal which I secured with my pistol. At times I lived off of the country.

I have been shot at by bandits twice, they lost.

I have spent years poring over old and recent documents, in and out of museums, attempting to make sense out of them, an almost impossible job since the variations of the truth have been so distorted over time by different authors etc that it was almost impossible. Perhaps this is why no one else has ever found Tayopa, although many have died in the search.

I will not include the lost earnings, comforts, etc that I, and my faithful family, had to give up to look for Tayopa - I was earning approx. $45 US per hr when I started the search in 1955, that dove to $00 many times later..

Put it all together, and I would not say that it was found by a "LUCKY finder"

Without that effort and ability, etc. Tayopa would still be another TROY or the Siete Ciuadades de Cibola en el Gran Pajonal on the Rio Perene, type of an obscure legend. Nor in the process would the Plot of the Jesuits have been uncovered.

Frankly, I believe that I deserve a bit more than a paltry token payment, but then, perhaps I am a bit too greedy snicker..

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

SWR: you posted --->

Apparntly Roxas could not prove his case. He lost. Should be easy enough to understand.
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Yes, It shows that it pays to have a better lawyer, no? Emelda had enough money to get the best, Roxas?

Incidentally, didn't I read somewhere that the money was eventually confiscated and turned over to the Philippine gov't as ill gotten gains?

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

MY FRIEND CUBFAN: The story and location of Tayopa will not go with me, only the precise locations of the 5 deposits. It will be published .

I have no intentions of ever working Tayopa, I wish to keep the area as it is, it is spectacular. However, it, and the allied workings, will not be revealed. There were 18 other gopher hole mines in the same barranca.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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