True Spelling

[cactusjumper]

Jim,

Having read the man's book, I can assure you it is full of opinion, conjecture and complete fantasy. I have no doubt there is solid evidence on the ground, but there is nothing to get overly excited about. Mexico is full of worked out, caved-in mines and prospect holes.

His trying to tie the Jesuits into this site turns his book into a work of pure fiction.

Other than that, it's a fun read.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[gollum]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but your post shows a severe lack of site specific knowledge regarding the area and the story. Once again, I highly recommend getting the book "Enigma at Tumacacori." It will explain a lot of the issues. The reason that there is so much trouble in excavating the shafts is that this is already part of the Coronado National Forest, and is administered by the BLM. Every year, new permissions must be gotten, new reclamation bonds must be secured, etc. It's not just that easy.

I hate to be nitpicker here, but the book you want to reference is self-published. Using a self-published book is not the best source of reliable or verifiable information. Not taking anything away from the author, but anybody can publish a book. For the purposes of this discussion, Lamar's posts/statements are as reliable as this book.

Actually, they're not as reliable. Mainly because Lamar has never been to the area, and does not know anybody from there. He thinks the tailings pile there is just as likely to be from an iron deposit as it is silver or gold. That is just not so. Anybody with a working knowledge of the area knows that it was renowned in Spanish Colonial Times for all the silver and gold that was taken from there (mostly silver, hence the name "Planchas de Plata"). Gary also backs up a lot of his suppositions with pictures from his many years on site.

He first started going to this area shortly after he came back from Viet Nam in 1979 (I think). He has also held claim to that spot since 1986.

Are the Molina Map and associated Molina Document authentic or fraudulent? I don't know. The National Park Service claims they are fake. The problem with their claims, is that they are not entirely correct. Without going (again) into the long drawn out blather about why, I will refer you to Real de Tayopa, who also believes it is possible they are authentic.

Like I have said several times in the past, I do not think Gary Oliver is correct about many of his assertions, but few people on this earth have spent as much time and money researching this place as he. Because of that (and the pictures), I always give him the benefit of the doubt.

What I suggest (again), is to read his book. Look at the pictures. Take away from it what you want, but nobody can deny this guy's level of commitment to his quest.

................and no, I don't get a cut from his book sales.

Best-Mike

 

[the blindbowman]

Please don't take this the wrong way, but your post shows a severe lack of site specific knowledge regarding the area and the story. Once again, I highly recommend getting the book "Enigma at Tumacacori." It will explain a lot of the issues. The reason that there is so much trouble in excavating the shafts is that this is already part of the Coronado National Forest, and is administered by the BLM. Every year, new permissions must be gotten, new reclamation bonds must be secured, etc. It's not just that easy.

I hate to be nitpicker here, but the book you want to reference is self-published. Using a self-published book is not the best source of reliable or verifiable information. Not taking anything away from the author, but anybody can publish a book. For the purposes of this discussion, Lamar's posts/statements are as reliable as this book.

Actually, they're not as reliable. Mainly because Lamar has never been to the area, and does not know anybody from there. He thinks the tailings pile there is just as likely to be from an iron deposit as it is silver or gold. That is just not so. Anybody with a working knowledge of the area knows that it was renowned in Spanish Colonial Times for all the silver and gold that was taken from there (mostly silver, hence the name "Planchas de Plata"). Gary also backs up a lot of his suppositions with pictures from his many years on site.

He first started going to this area shortly after he came back from Viet Nam in 1979 (I think). He has also held claim to that spot since 1986.

Are the Molina Map and associated Molina Document authentic or fraudulent? I don't know. The National Park Service claims they are fake. The problem with their claims, is that they are not entirely correct. Without going (again) into the long drawn out blather about why, I will refer you to Real de Tayopa, who also believes it is possible they are authentic.

Like I have said several times in the past, I do not think Gary Oliver is correct about many of his assertions, but few people on this earth have spent as much time and money researching this place as he. Because of that (and the pictures), I always give him the benefit of the doubt.

What I suggest (again), is to read his book. Look at the pictures. Take away from it what you want, but nobody can deny this guy's level of commitment to his quest.

................and no, I don't get a cut from his book sales.

Best-Mike

i dont know a lot about your topic gollum. but i am up with the flue and i am going to add what i can ...


frist off i agree with you about the iron mineing debeat . the iron mine tailings of the steala mine goes for 3/4 of a mile around the mine . if the tailing piles are not large it would be foolish to beleive they are iron related . it takes a vast amount of iron ore to make the over all product in the frist place ...

loo at the logic of what the site is . if it was not that big of a mine most likely its not iron .. if it was a iron mine it would most likely have been worked for many years unless the ore went dry and that not likely . most iron mines ore deposities are large enough to supply the production or they just dont work the site ..

so IMHO if the site is not of any great size vs the tailing piles then its not a iron mine ...



gollum states "The National Park Service claims they are fake"

like that is a shock turn of events ...lol

of corse they would say this . even if they were authentic . for on if the preson can not prove with dirrect evidence the papers are authentic then most likely the NPS will take the know stand as it is told to . stop as many clams as posable that dont have real evidence to support a real clam . if there is evidence in hand that still dose not mean the NPS will not question that evidence . i dout a permit would be based on one peice of evidence no matter how strong that evidence is ... these are standerds for the NPS and they are there to protect the park from misguided clams and missleding evidence ...

saddly i see their piont of veiw and must agree ...with the NPS after seeing the mts frist hand .. to the trained eye ,it is not hard to see the distruction that has been done to the mts ....

yet under stand those same guide lines can help you and protect a clam just as well . but you must applie to te guide lines frist ....

have sound evidence from more then one sorce have back up evidence from more then one sorce and document everything you can . and frist talk to the NPS and under stand the guide lines for what they are ...

they want scaled photographic evidence of a clear quality ...

yet from what you stated the evidence is not clear cut as they would beleive it is , not to state its not a good starting site .its not clean evidence as yet for permits from the NPS ...

if we as treasure hunters wish to show our skills are a trade of value to the NPS we must openly applie to these guide lines and stop fighting them ,every time hey say get more evidence or prove this or that .. we should be able to back up a true find with evidence of the nature they are asking for or the site is not worthy of the permit in the frist place ... dose it mean it can not be searched no . just not destroyed ...


we can not aford to be wrong ... our evidence must stand strong and be backed up by facts and dates and sound data ...and scaled photographic evidence ...


this is not to say the site is not there ,just that there may not be enough evidence left to make a legal clam of the site ..


.the word is (preservation)....

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
As the matter of fact, I WAS there. I spent several months in that area as part of a seismic crew a whole bunch of years ago.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Yammy New Year;
You wrote:
"For the purposes of this discussion, Lamar's posts/statements are as reliable as this book."

For that matter, so are YOURS!
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
You stated:
"Also, this is the place known throughout Nueva Espana as "Planchas de Plata." It was not unheard of for slabs of raw silver weighing in at 5 arrobas (125 pounds) to be found laying on the surface. This area is home to untold numbers of Silver Mines, and some Gold. In most of the Silver Mines, Gold is also a byproduct."

My reply is thus:
Yes yes yes, it is a very well known *fact* that there were many 125 lb. native silver lenses (slabs) lying about just for the taking, along with 10 to 25 lb. gold nuggets, all of it being carefully collected and placed into ox carts by the most beautiful vestial virgins in the land, all while serving glasses of iced tea (with just a touch of lemon and go easy on the sugar, please) to the thirsty Conquistadores. I've heard that they were as big as 600 pounders, along with gold nuggets so plentiful that the Conquistadores needed to watch their step, lest they stub their toes on them.

The only question in my mind is has anyone ever SEEN one of these lenses? It seems that once native silver ore is exposed to the surrounding elements such as air and water, it reacts rapidly and rather violently with the surrounding oxygen and the attacking oxygen immediately turns the ore black, then continues, rapidly turning the silver ore into silver oxide, a fine white powdery substance, with a strong odor highly remaniscent of old car batteries.

It's truly unfortunate that the *facts* don't fit very well into the laws of physics, science or Mother Natures' way of doing business, but perhaps all of these pesky natural problems were placed into suspension by the hand of God so the Conquistadores could become wealthy beyond their (and yours, by the way) wildest dreams.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

Dear gollum;
You stated:
"Also, this is the place known throughout Nueva Espana as "Planchas de Plata." It was not unheard of for slabs of raw silver weighing in at 5 arrobas (125 pounds) to be found laying on the surface. This area is home to untold numbers of Silver Mines, and some Gold. In most of the Silver Mines, Gold is also a byproduct."

My reply is thus:
Yes yes yes, it is a very well known *fact* that there were many 125 lb. native silver lenses (slabs) lying about just for the taking, along with 10 to 25 lb. gold nuggets, all of it being carefully collected and placed into ox carts by the most beautiful vestial virgins in the land, all while serving glasses of iced tea (with just a touch of lemon and go easy on the sugar, please) to the thirsty Conquistadores. I've heard that they were as big as 600 pounders, along with gold nuggets so plentiful that the Conquistadores needed to watch their step, lest they stub their toes on them.

The only question in my mind is has anyone ever SEEN one of these lenses? It seems that once native silver ore is exposed to the surrounding elements such as air and water, it reacts rapidly and rather violently with the surrounding oxygen and the attacking oxygen immediately turns the ore black, then continues, rapidly turning the silver ore into silver oxide, a fine white powdery substance, with a strong odor highly remaniscent of old car batteries.

It's truly unfortunate that the *facts* don't fit very well into the laws of physics, science or Mother Natures' way of doing business, but perhaps all of these pesky natural problems were placed into suspension by the hand of God so the Conquistadores could become wealthy beyond their (and yours, by the way) wildest dreams.
Your friend;
LAMAR

I haven't seen the ore from the Bridal Chamber stope in Lake Valley, NM, either (I've been in the hole however), but the reports are that it was a 40-foot cube of solid horn silver poking out of the earth. One of the reports was from the governor of NM Territory who offered to exchange his yearly salary for one day's work in the chamber harvesting the ore. I have held 20-pound slabs of pure native silver, cut from the 18"-thick vein that originally showed on the surface, from the Blackhawk Mine south of Silver City, NM and have seen a 600-pound gold nugget in the Denver Museum of natural history that was hauled out of Brekkinridge Creek in a wagon. Obviously your sarcastic argument that Mother Nature's way of doing business precludes such mineral anomalies is preposterous. The Planchas de Plata reports therefore have to be seriously considered.

You are well-spoken and smooth, but your logical arguements have large gaps. By association, this flaw sullies your stance of total denial of Jesuit mining activities in the New World. You are indeed a fine apologist, but not necessarily a committed truth seeker. Remember, a true skeptic is one who believes all things are possible.

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings and Happy Holidays to you all,

Those Molina documents are another set of argument-starters aren't they? Are they frauds, or genuine? There are good reasons to conclude they are fraudulent, and John Mitchell is frequently pointed to as the hoaxer. However if they are genuine (and at least one person has found something by using them) the only way they could be real is if they are hand written copies done by someone reading original, genuine documents and attempting to "translate" them fairly poorly. If this is the case (my opinion this is the case) then it is also logical that the directions, distances etc are deliberately incorrect in some way.

I see no reason for the National Park Service to be involved in protecting ANY old mine works, for any reason whatsoever. Old mines are interesting to treasure hunters and prospectors, but not really to tourists. Besides there are already plenty of old mines set up as "tourist traps" including a fake one in Superior AZ, so there is no need for another. More tourists would be interested in viewing the old missions, I think.

We have drifted pretty far afield in this discussion of Tayopa so my apologies for continuing to drift! I have prospected Santa Cruz county enough to know that silver ores are quite commonplace there, (hence my nickname, named for the gold district and ghost town of the same name) but iron or cinnabar etc are not.

Lamar you are casting a wide net to try to dis-prove any kind of Jesuit involvement; to suggest that the tailings found in Javelina canyon are iron or cinnabar rather than what they certainly are (silver ore) only serves to cast doubt upon your arguments. I would also point out that native silver, (NOT silver ORE) while rarer than native gold, is well known in Santa Cruz county; and even in the gold districts such as Oroblanco district, the amount of silver in the gold runs to 500 fine, or 50% silver. (Hence the gold found there being called "white gold" because it has so much silver that it looks identical to silver.) Native silver nuggets also occur in at least one other district further north, and unless soil acidity/alkalinity has acted upon it, the silver remains looking surprisingly pristine.

An hypothetical question for you Lamar and for each of our friends here:

What if it could be proven beyond all doubt that Jesuits had been involved in mining in Pimeria Alta, what would that change?

Happy holidays to everyone, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.

Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO BETH & oro: They were, and nothing. heheheh.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[the blindbowman]

have you ever really wanted to say something but you know better ....? if you knew what i know ....LOL

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
No matter what anyone knows, or thinks they know, the facts are this. No one has, as yet, proven conclusively that the Jesuits were involved in illegal or illicit mining in the region. Further, no one in modern times has gotten even modestly wealthy from the supposedly vast riches in the ground around Tayopa. Further still, all of the time, finances and efforts spent on atrying to locate and recover even a small portion of the alleged vast treasures have gained naught. Even further still, no matter how much time, finances and efforts are expended in the future, nothing of great monetary note will be recovered from the area around Tayopa because there is nothing there to recover.

I happened to play a small role in a geological survey of that area and there is nothing of note which can be recovered practically or feasibly by a single individual or even a small consorteum. The capitol required, along with the current world market demands, would make such an enterprise impractical and will doom the venture to fialure. I've had the oppurtunity to witness firsthand the ravages of the terrain brought on by centuries of wanton explorations by various groups of ill-educated treasure seekers and the destruction wrought upon the land is appalling and shameful. The surface trash alone is disgraceful.

The reopening of abandoned mine shafts which have absolutely no economic or historic value shows human ignorance in it's finest state. The reason why these mines were P & Aed is really quite simple. They were P & Aed as they the minerals be mined ceased to sustain production efforts.

The facts are that the native populace, before arrival of the Spaniards, did not show any interest in hardrock mining and thus far there have been only three shallow pre-Colombian shafts discovered, which had been abadoned before the arrival of the Spanish settlers, therefore they were not worked in post-Colombian times. These shafts have a significant historical value attached to them as they allow modern historians a glimpse into the methods and procedures utilized by the natives prior to introduction of hard metallic tools.

If one were to think things through to its' logical conclusion by examining the evidence at hand, one would realize almost immediately that the mine shafts in question were worked over a very long period of time. It does not matter in the least how many people were employed, as a rock face can only provide enough space for a handful of miners at any one time.

Using very crude tools and unskilled labor, the progress was excrutiatingly slow, with mere inches of rock being peeled away that were measured in weeks. The time period involved would have outstripped the Jesuits' short presence on the scene and in fact one may conclude that the mines in question must have been worked for at least 100 years, if not more, if they were worked on a steady basis.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[the blindbowman]

Dear group;
No matter what anyone knows, or thinks they know, the facts are this. No one has, as yet, proven conclusively that the Jesuits were involved in illegal or illicit mining in the region. Further, no one in modern times has gotten even modestly wealthy from the supposedly vast riches in the ground around Tayopa. Further still, all of the time, finances and efforts spent on atrying to locate and recover even a small portion of the alleged vast treasures have gained naught. Even further still, no matter how much time, finances and efforts are expended in the future, nothing of great monetary note will be recovered from the area around Tayopa because there is nothing there to recover.

I happened to play a small role in a geological survey of that area and there is nothing of note which can be recovered practically or feasibly by a single individual or even a small consorteum. The capitol required, along with the current world market demands, would make such an enterprise impractical and will doom the venture to fialure. I've had the oppurtunity to witness firsthand the ravages of the terrain brought on by centuries of wanton explorations by various groups of ill-educated treasure seekers and the destruction wrought upon the land is appalling and shameful. The surface trash alone is disgraceful.

The reopening of abandoned mine shafts which have absolutely no economic or historic value shows human ignorance in it's finest state. The reason why these mines were P & Aed is really quite simple. They were P & Aed as they the minerals be mined ceased to sustain production efforts.

The facts are that the native populace, before arrival of the Spaniards, did not show any interest in hardrock mining and thus far there have been only three shallow pre-Colombian shafts discovered, which had been abadoned before the arrival of the Spanish settlers, therefore they were not worked in post-Colombian times. These shafts have a significant historical value attached to them as they allow modern historians a glimpse into the methods and procedures utilized by the natives prior to introduction of hard metallic tools.

If one were to think things through to its' logical conclusion by examining the evidence at hand, one would realize almost immediately that the mine shafts in question were worked over a very long period of time. It does not matter in the least how many people were employed, as a rock face can only provide enough space for a handful of miners at any one time.

Using very crude tools and unskilled labor, the progress was excrutiatingly slow, with mere inches of rock being peeled away that were measured in weeks. The time period involved would have outstripped the Jesuits' short presence on the scene and in fact one may conclude that the mines in question must have been worked for at least 100 years, if not more, if they were worked on a steady basis.
Your friend;
LAMAR

LOL foolish mortial

 

[Cubfan64]

have you ever really wanted to say something but you know better ....? if you knew what i know ....LOL

Reminds me of an earlier time of my life when you could just say "nanah nanah boo boo, I know something you don't" as part of an argument :P

 

[the blindbowman]

have you ever really wanted to say something but you know better ....? if you knew what i know ....LOL

Reminds me of an earlier time of my life when you could just say "nanah nanah boo boo, I know something you don't" as part of an argument :P

this is a debeat i have already won....LOLwho knows what anyone will find out there could be blisterds....

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Lamar and everyone,

Lamar wrote:

The reopening of abandoned mine shafts which have absolutely no economic or historic value shows human ignorance in it's finest state.

Your statement there, shows me that you have little or no experience in prospecting or mining, or you would know that a great many so-called "abandoned" mines are of very good to excellent economic value with many low-grade ores that were un-economic in years past (with ancient mining methods) ARE quite economical to mine today with today's technologies. A great many also have hidden rich veins which were not found by the early miners and prospectors who were forced to use crude tools and techniques. I suggest (though I am pretty sure you won't bother) that you read up on the history of just ONE old, abandoned and "played out" gold mine in California, known as the "Sixteen to One". It is only a SINGLE example of many hundreds to thousands. Would you know, that the gold fields of California, thought to be all "mined out" and "played out" after the 1849 gold rush, then was later re-worked by Chinese miners in the late 1800s, and AGAIN in the Depression years by men who had no other recourse for income, and the output in gold EXCEEDED that of the Gold Rush. The amount of gold remaining in the ground has been estimated by USGS geologists as over 90%! So yes your statement did indeed show "ignorance in its finest form" in the purity of your apparent utter innocence of mining and prospecting knowledge and/or experience. At least that is what I am getting here from your statements. Seismic surveying is NOT the same thing as Geology, which is why they are quite separate courses in universities. It is also why mine operators hire geologists and mine engineers rather than seismologists. Do you know that the United States produced 8.360 million troy ounces of gold in 2006, compared with just over 3 million ounces in 1853, the HEIGHT of the California Gold Rush output!

Why don't you read over the USGS Open File Report 02-303 which is online at:
http://pubs.usgs.gov/of/2002/of02-303/OFR_02-303.pdf

I really have come to doubt your credentials Lamar in the field of prospecting, mining and treasure hunting; you continue to spout such statements that display little or no understanding of the subjects. Do you do any prospecting, or have you done any mining, and treasure hunting? Do you think that oil drilling logs equate to total knowledge of the entire geology of vast areas? Do you think that every old mine, now abandoned, has "historic values" perhaps much more so or to the exclusion of economic values? I just want to get some idea of your experience and knowledge in these subjects, so as to better understand your various shocking statements.

This fact, that old, even ancient mines that were worked even to what was at the time the point of non-economic, are today quite viable holds true not only in the USA but also throughout Mexico, South America and even in ancient Egypt, where gold mines that were worked by the Pharaohs and later by the Ptolemies and Romans to the point they were "played out" are today being re-opened and producing gold again profitably. So my friends, you are sure more than welcome to agree with our friend Lamar here that there are no lost mines, no lost treasures, no "Jesuit" mines or treasures, that all those old abandoned mines have more "historic" value than any economic etc - heck stay home and "pooh-pooh" the whole idea! You will be that much LESS COMPETITION for me, Real de Tayopa, (whom would probably view trespassers on his mine through the crosshairs of his scope) Gollum, Blindbowman, Cubfan, EdT, and for the rest of us who do not agree with Lamar, but the facts are quite apparent to prospectors and treasure hunters.

That idea of old abandoned mines having some great "historical" value is really shocking to me Lamar - have you had much interaction with archaeologists? I mean, have some archaeologists indicated this idea to you, because I have gotten very much the OPPOSITE impression from several archaeologists. Even the idea of having an old mine as some kind of tourist attraction is odd, picture the scene:

"Honey, look over here!"
"What is it?"
"Its a great big old HOLE IN THE GROUND!"
"Wow gee-whiz!"
"Don't step in it, and lets go..."

I mean, get serious!

My apologies if anything I posted is of any offense, none was intended, and thank you in advance.
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
Who said anyone was working a drilling log Seismic surveys are used for MUCH more than petro explorations! Obviously it's YOU who doesn't know nearly as much as you think you do! And yes, there is an archelogical exploration going on right now (as I am writing this) in Peru at a possible pre-Colombian mineral extraction site. Everyone is pretty excited about it too. It's always been surmised that the bulk of the vast Incan treasure trove was extracted by placer techniques and by plundering lesser tribes in the area. Now, hopefully opinions may change with these new recent discoveries.
So again, it's blatantly obvious that it's YOU who doesn't know beans about archelogy OR factual history. And yes, abandoned mines are reopened and reworked time and again, as prices make mining once again a profitable venture in lower producing formations. I did NOT state that todays current market price would NOT make the reopening of an abandoned working profitable once more, merely that the mines were most likely abandoned becuause they were no longer profitable at THAT TIME!
I must state that I never doubted your credentials, knowledge nor your expertise, as I did not have confidence in them in the first place.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Perhaps I should clarify what constitutes a truly abandoned mine a bit further.

A mine which no longer produces any of it's target ores is generally abandoned and in more recent times, collapsed or filled in to avoid future incidents or accidents by idiots who seem to think that there is something of value down there and decide to check out things for themselves.

An inactive working is one which the target material in question can no longer sustain contain production due to current market demands. This is NOT to state that the mine is, or has been, abandoned, as it is not, it is merely lying idle until such time as market prices can justify it's reopening.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[the blindbowman]

frist off lets get the facts stright . the 16 to 1 mine has never been reopened because it has never beenclosed down as a working mine , it has had a fire and was on stand down yet the mine has never been closed , i know this for a fact . it is the longest working mine in american histroy ,i just a few weeks ago watched a hole documentary on this mine .. the gold is sold as slap craft stone and they get far more then they could for the gold it self ...$1400 pre oz. and yes it is a working mine and yeilds over a million a year and they have reason to beleive it will not play out for as much as 20 year into the future .. infact they are planing new shafts to open new areas to mineing and modern metal detectors has found a vast amount that was not found in the past ...

if you think there is nothing out there of value ,you just dont value the things i do ...

i have been very untalkive for a good reason ...

you never answerd Oro's ?..... lamar ...i worked side by side with my father for more then 15 years at dozens of mines and rock hounding sites and old gost towns ..i am navigationial speacialest , i dont really care what skills you have , that would have very little value to me . i dont need to steal sites from other people or hope they led me to something ...

in fact unless you hope to confert some of us religiously i dont any really reason your here lamar other then to misled or discurage people .. that i find funny because thats the same thing scoot woods job at the NPS dose ...

if you think some of the people here are fools thats OK . thats your opioion....

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings everyone,
Beth (Mrs Oro) has been reinstated, so I have no reason to stay away any longer. Let us get back to the business of discussing the important stuff – TREASURE!

Lamar wrote:

Dear Oroblanco;
Who said anyone was working a drilling log

You are misconstruing my words my friend, I never said anyone was working a drilling log, to remind you or your statements, I will re-post your statements made earlier which said that oil exploration drilling had completely explored all of the geology of Mexico:
Quote

By the mid 1950s, Mexico sub-strata had been completely mapped by petroleum exploration teams, and NO substantial beryl deposits had been discovered, nor had any lost or hiddengold or silver mines been rediscovered as yet. Virtually every square inch of Mexicos' vast sub-strata has been explored in the quest for black gold and natural gas and the methods employed have been costly in terms of technology used, manpower and time expendures.

end quote, from http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,69966.msg906873.html#msg906873

Lamar also wrote:

Obviously it's YOU who doesn't know nearly as much as you think you do!

There is a great deal I do not know, and make no claim to know; I try to learn something new each and every day.

Lamar also wrote:

So again, it's blatantly obvious that it's YOU who doesn't know beans about archelogy OR factual history.

You are certainly welcome to your opinions and conclusions.

Lamar also wrote:

I must state that I never doubted your credentials, knowledge nor your expertise, as I did not have confidence in them in the first place.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Your friend;
LAMAR

It is healthy to maintain a skeptical view until evidence proves otherwise, and again you are certainly welcome to your views and opinions, I am sure there are plenty who share them.

Yammy yams and SWR wrote:

Bravo! Simply bravo!

What a surprise.

Blindbowman wrote:

you never answerd Oro's ?..... lamar

Greetings mi amigo Blindbowman, you noticed that as well. A fair number of questions do get passed over in our discussions by most everyone, often simply a result of oversight so I will conclude that this was the case.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
It's great to have you back my long lost friend! While you were gone I was asked whether I was the official inquisitor, however that post has since been deleted. It was a shame that the posts regarding this issue are now gone because I was going to use the Inquistion to serve a very valid, yet obscure point of fact.

The Inquisition!!!

The very words conjure up images of dank dungeons hissing torches, with the sounds of water dripping and screams puncutating the darkness, with robed and hooded Catholic priests applying instruments of pain on helpless victims. Thousands upon thousands of these innocent victims were tortured and then burned at the stake by the hands of Fr. Tomas de Torquemada ( a Dominican, by the way) and other cruel hearted Roman Catholic priests. These are the *facts*. Ask practically anyone and they will tell you the same thing. This is what happened.

Or is it? In an effort to dispel some of the rumors regarding the Catholic Inquisitions, Pope John Paul II posted the "Inquisition Symposium" in late 1999 and permitted up to 46 different higly acclaimed independent research historians (non Catholic historians, as a point of fact) access to the Vatican archives. What they uncovered was startling. There were only 59 women recorded as being burned at the stake in Spain, 36 in Italy and 4 in Portugal during the infamous Spanish Inquisition.

On the other hand, around 100,000 women were accused of witchcraft in the civil courts of Europe, with a recorded 50,000 burned at the stake, and about 25,000 in Germany alone. This only covers the activities of the civil inquisitors during the 16th century and it was executed by the followers of that great Protestant reformer, Martin Luther. Surprised?

These are the real facts, not the rumors and lies that have been made up by various people and blown all out of proportion by generation upon generation of storytellers with fanciful imaginations. These facts are real. They are recorded in the Vatican and in countless civil communities the width and breadth of Europe, yet oddly enough, nobody believes them. They prefer to believe that Fr. Tomas de Torquemada and his minions were a band of bloodthirsty vampires, with the hearts set upon the cruel torture and murder of innocents.

Yet what of Martin Luther and the other great Protestant reformers who were brave enough to break away from the Mother Church? I suppose that it's perfectly all right to overlook the acts that they committed, seeing as wonderful they were.

And this is the heart and soul of the matter. The Society of Jesus, solely through rumors, have become robbers and thieves of the New World, and while not a single shred of factual evidence supports these claims, there is enough *circumstantial* evidence to convice them *en absentia*. It makes not an iota of difference that the actual facts tell a wholly different story, the *facts* proclaimed by legions of storytellers is what is believed.

I guess that if you tell a lie often enough, then it slowly evolves into the truth?
Your friend;
LAMAR