True Spelling

Greetings Lamar, Real de Tayopa and everyone,

The Inquisition. Do you really accept the figures for the total deaths, tortures, etc from the Vatican? Why should these figures be trusted, when the studies were done on Vatican records?

Quote:
The historian Hernando del Pulgar, contemporary of Ferdinand and Isabella, estimated that the Inquisition had burned at the stake 2,000 people and reconciled another 15,000 by 1490 (just one decade after the Inquisition began).[42]

Modern historians have begun to study the documentary records of the Inquisition. The archives of the Suprema, today held by the National Historical Archive of Spain (Archivo HistĂłrico Nacional), conserves the annual relations of all processes between 1560 and 1700. This material provides information about 49,092 judgements, the latter studied by Gustav Henningsen and Jaime Contreras. These authors calculate that only 1.9% of those processed - approximately 933 - were burned at the stake.

The archives of the Suprema only provide information surrounding the processes prior to 1560. To study the processes themselves, it is necessary to examine the archives of the local tribunals; however, the majority have been lost to the devastation of war, the ravages of time or other events. Pierre Dedieu has studied those of Toledo, where 12,000 were judged for offences related to heresy.[43] Ricardo García Cárcel has analyzed those of the tribunal of Valencia.[44] These authors' investigations find that the Inquisition was most active in the period between 1480 and 1530, and that during this period the percentage condemned to death was much more significant than in the years studied by Henningsen and Contreras.

García Cárcel estimates that the total number processed by the Inquisition throughout its history was approximately 150,000. Applying the percentages of executions that appeared in the trials of 1560-1700--about 2%--the approximate total would be about 3,000 put to death. Nevertheless, very probably this total should be raised keeping in mind the data provided by Dedieu and García Cárcel for the tribunals of Toledo and Valencia, respectively. It is likely that the total would be between 3,000 and 5,000 executed.

Other documents, discovered in the Vatican Archives in 2004 put the toll of heresy cases tried by the Spanish Inquisition at 44,647, of which 1.8% (804) led to an execution, while another 1.7% were burned in effigy because they had somehow escaped before the sentence was carried out. If this information is correct, the death toll for the entire Spanish Inquisition lies closer to 800.[45]

However, it is impossible to determine the precision of this total, and owing to the gaps in documentation, it is unlikely that the exact number will ever be known.
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I find it interesting that you chose to compare the horrifying treatment meted out by the Inquisitors to the "Witch hunts" especially since the Inquisition was a very large part of the Witch-hunts.

At the time, Basel was a center of theologians who preached the dangers of witchcraft, and with the Council of Basel* (1431-1449), their ideas came to the attention of a wider audience. The European witch-hunts only began on a large scale in the wake of the Council, from the 1450s, and was sustained throughout the Early Modern period
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*Just in case you were wondering whether the Council of Basel was Catholic or not, let me clarify:

*
The Council of Florence (Originally Council of Basel) was a Ecumenical Council of bishops and other ecclesiastics of the Roman Catholic Church. It began in 1431 in Basel, Switzerland, and became known as the Council of Ferrara after its transfer to Ferrara was decreed by Pope Eugene IV to convene in 1438. The council transferred to Florence in 1439 because of the threat of plague, and the financial support of the Medici family
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Strangely, in Protestant England, the Witch-hunts were apparently less strict and bloodthirsty:
In York, England, at the height of the Great Hunt (1567–1640) one half of all witchcraft cases brought before church courts were dismissed for lack of evidence. No torture was used, and the accused could clear himself by providing four to eight "compurgators", people who were willing to swear that he wasn't a witch. Only 21% of the cases ended with convictions, and the Church did not impose any kind of corporal or capital punishment
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Then there are the numbers of executed "witches", and remember that SOME portion of these were in fact executed by the Inquisition, as the totals do not separate them:
Number of executions

Estimates of the numbers of women, men and children executed for participating in witchcraft vary wildly depending on the method used to generate the estimate. The total number of witch trials in Europe which are known for certain to have ended in executions is around 12,000
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So how many "witches" were actually victims of the Inquisition? We can never know the truth of this question.

Lamar wrote:
I guess that if you tell a lie often enough, then it slowly evolves into the truth?
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Hmm, whom are you quoting or paraphrasing there mi amigo Lamar? Is it this source?

“Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it”.~ Adolf Hitler

Surely this was not taught to you by the Jesuits, right?

Jesus said, "Know what is in front of your face, and what is hidden from you will be disclosed to you. 2 For there is nothing hidden that won't be revealed."

So how far OFF TOPIC have we now drifted from the True Spelling of Tayopa? My apologies for drifting yet further, just that so many interesting subjects and incidental points have been raised.
Oroblanco

Caveo Jesuitii !
 

Dear Oroblanco;
A large number of *executions* you've so thoughtfully quoted were not death sentences, merely expulsions from the Spanish realm. King Ferdinand and Queen Isabella were rightly afraid of the Jews in Spain after the expulsion of the Moors from their lands as it was the Jews who conspired with the Moors for the invasion of lesser Gaul (modern day Spain). This is a very well documented fact.

As such, there were rumors the Jews were attempting the same thing anew and so the Spanish royality set about removing the offenders from It's territories, and in doing so, eventually they expelled practically all Jews from their realm. Due to a 10th century Bull that forbade the mistreatment of, conversion of, or impedement of, practioners of Judeaism, the Spanish King and Queen needed a new plan.

That plan was to accuse the victims of heresy. It was simple in concept and execution. The convicted heretics would be faced with a choice, convert or suffer expulsion. Practically everyone coverted, with a small percentage leaving Spain and going to other parts of Europe. As a point of fact, Fr. Tomas de Torquemadas' maternal grandmother was a converted Jew.

Thr royality of Spain at that time was justifiably afraid of a new Moorish invasion, as there were realible sources across the Strait of Gibralter which were telling of an ever increasing invasionary force massing in modern day Morocco. As such, this eventually led to the Spanish conquest of the Northern African rim, to act as a buffer zone against the invaders.

There exists no factual evidence in Spain or Rome of any actual physical executions, other than the 39 I previously quoted, as the 10th century Papal Bull was still in effect and bearing this in mind, everyone was frightened of the possible consequences of executing Jews. It was generally agreed upon that conversion from heresy, or lacking that, explusion from the Realm, would suffice.

On the other hand, the facts that around 100,000 European citizens were accused, tried and about half of those were physically executed in the various civil Protestant courts throughout Europe are also documented facts, not housed in the Vatican but in the various principalities were the trials were held. The actual numbers are so vast and the records are so wide spread that no concerted attempt has yet been made to ascertain the true numbers.

That England executed far fewer heretics than many other Euroean countries can be explained as the unwillingness of the Anglican church to physically execute accused heretics, so instead they followed the example of the Roman Catholic Church and merely converted or expelled the convicts heretics from the British realm.

That a person was accused of heresy and suffered death from the results and is not recorded in the Vatican archives is proof positive that the execution of the sentence was not sanctioned by the Holy See and was in fact carried out by persons employed by a civil power instead of an eccelestial one. Remember, the civil governments of Europe were capable of executing their respective populaces without any official approval from the Holy See and also as a point in fact, England broke away from the mother Church because the Popes' refusal to grant King Henry VIII a divorce, so he took it upon himself to get divorced and promptly had his current wife executed by beheading.

The Roman Catholic Church has traditionally held and cherished the belief that one should forgive ones' transgressions in accordance with the New Testament, as opposed to an *eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth* as is recorded in the Old Testament. As such, this has led to the Roman Catholic Churchs' condemnation of capitol punishment throughout the world in modern times, most notably in the USA, where one can often witness Catholic clergy members protesting the executions of various state and federal criminals, who have been accused of capitol crimes and convicted by the death penalty.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Greetings Lamar,

So are you saying that the Inquisition(s) had nothing to do with the Witch hunts? Thank you in advance,

I fail to see any way to tie this back in to the actual topic of this thread. Might I suggest that this far off topic discussion get a new thread?

Oroblanco
 

where will the sands of time take us ..?
will we be able to return the ashes to evidence ..?
or ...will we be left holding dust
and .... wondering where do we go from here ...!



sha ma chi
 

Dear oroblanco;
A witch hunt and an inquisition are the same thing, just different wording. An inquisition is nothing more than an old Latin based way of describing an investigation, any investigation. Because the European witch hunts were mostly farces, today anytime a group starts casting their eyes about for an innocent party to lay the blame on, the process is now known as a witch hunt.

And yes, all of this ties into the going ons at Tayopa during the colonization of the New World.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Dear Real de Tayopa;
Yes, my friend, the events which were unfolding in the Old World played a major role in shaping the events of the New World. That Inquisitions were taking place in both Catholic and in Protestant Europe at the time is quite pertinent to this discussion, as the Earthshaking events happening in Europe were felt across the Atlantic and in the European colonies.

The reason why the witch hunts and the Inquisitions were occurring is simple. The Renaissance period was springing up all over Europe and it was this period which formented unease and distrust among the Old World populaces. The Renaissance in itself was a completely new way of thinking about things. Every aspect of European life was affected and not only this, it also affected the lives of virtually every European inhabitant.

The Renaissance age ushered in a new idea. People started to think differently. Art, science, politics, law, engineering, medicine, public health and safety, and even agriculture all felt the hand of the Renaissance. The Renaissance was a totally new way of approaching centuries old problems.

The old fuedal system of governement, which formed in the earliest medieval times, no longer fit into the Europe which was emerging in the 15th century. Even the ancient 2 class system was slowly dying out, to replaced with craft guilds, which were the earliest forms of organized labor unions, and from these unions came the burgeoning middle class.

Never before in the history of the world had there been a true middle class society and Europe is the birthplace of this. The middle class citizens soon came to realize that they had a voice and they started to use it in an effort to assert some control over their destinies. From the earliest Renaissance age also rose the Society of Jesus.

Unlike the previous Roman Catholic religious Orders, the Society of Jesus embraced the Renaissance wholeheartedly as a culture and they promoted and spread education throughout the world, including the New World of the Americas. One of their primary tenets was, and still is, to act as teachers and to provide education to the unfortunates of the world.

Naturally, since the Jesuits were devoted to this cause, it in turn provided no small of amount of fuel for their opponents, both secular and from the older, much more conserative mendicant Catholic Orders, such as the Augustinians, the Francisians and the Dominicans, just to name a few.

The most powerful weapon in the arsenal of the old thinkers during the Renaissance was the accusations of heresy and witchcraft. These fearful superstitious sors used these dual accusations in order to try and justify plagues, crop failures, abnormally high infant deaths, etc. The truth of the matter is that they were most afraid of the future, and of change, and as such they attempted to use heresy and witchcraft to stifle the approaching Renaissance.

This is why the Jesuits were accused of all sorts of unfounded indescretions in the New World. The colonists and settlers of the New World were old fashioned thinkers, with old fashioned ideas and goals and as such, they were rightly afraid of the Jesuits, both as a Catholic society and of what they were capable of doing to the native populace. That the vast majority of Jesuits sought to educate the natives provided no small amount of discomfort and fear to the settlers and they felt that something must be done to circumvent this from happening.

This is why these rumors persist today. The Society of Jesus was no more guilty of their alledged crimes than the poor innocent men and women were guilty of causing the crops to fail in Europe, yet they all suffered unjust fates because of accusations and lies. I, for one, will not willingly take part in a farce and it is my feverent desire that others see the truth in the same light as I.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

the jesuits did not have a god damn thing to do with the real tayopa .. . lamar is trying to take the post off topic he has from the frist post he made here ... if my dateing of the stone is correct and they were made in 1279-1325 then the jesuits had nothing what so ever to do with these site and the fact tayopa is coded twice on the stones means unless lamar knows something we dont about 1000AD -1300AD about the jesuits being in those years then he has no clam what so ever about jesuits playing any part in tayopa . , you cant lay clam to any of these sites ...lol ...the jesuits were not there ...this is a aztec site and later found by templar between the years of 1279-1325 and after that found in 1435 , if you wish to debate the target dates i well be glad to hear you out but i out right know for a fact the sites are in fact this old ...and yes i do have evidence of this ...
 

Dear blindbowman;
And this is where you are wrong, my misinformed friend. I DO have a claim to the alledged treasure trove of Tayopa, as much as you or anybody else has. If there is in a fact a treasure, then it's historical impact will far exceed it's current monetary value, no matter how little or how much that may be.

The treasures in question have a history of great depth and therefore it belongs to everybody, not just the person who finds it. I feel that if the treasure is in uncovered, then it should be imediately seized by the US government, willingly if possible, forcibly if not and a paltry, token sum paid to the lucky finder.

Afterwards the treasure should become a part of the Smithsonian Museum for all to view. It's only a shallow minded, selfish individual who would horde such a find of incredible historic value for themself.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

lamar said:
Dear blindbowman;
And this is where you are wrong, my misinformed friend. I DO have a claim to the alledged treasure trove of Tayopa, as much as you or anybody else has. If there is in a fact a treasure, then it's historical impact will far exceed it's current monetary value, no matter how little or how much that may be.

The treasures in question have a history of great depth and therefore it belongs to everybody, not just the person who finds it. I feel that if the treasure is in uncovered, then it should be imediately seized by the US government, willingly if possible, forcibly if not and a paltry, token sum paid to the lucky finder.

Afterwards the treasure should become a part of the Smithsonian Museum for all to view. It's only a shallow minded, selfish individual who would horde such a find of incredible historic value for themself.
Your friend;
LAMAR
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who would want a dusty old treasure with a curse on it ...lol you say the funniest things ...
 

Dear springfield;
You so generously posted:
"Mole warning. "
A mole? My friend, I have serious doubts that you would be able to identify a mole if one were to run up to you and bite you on the big toe. I simply have an opinion that I wish to share with others of this forum. You seem to be quite free with your opinions, therefore I feel justified in sharing mine with you and others. I feel that uncovering antiquities of historical importance and then hoarding or selling those antiquities is graverobbing, plain and simple.

There comes a point where the old addage "Finders keepers!" no longer applies, and in the case of New World treasure caches, this holds very true. One should always think of the greater of society before oneself.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

lamar said:
Dear springfield;
You so generously posted:
"Mole warning. "
A mole? My friend, I have serious doubts that you would be able to identify a mole if one were to run up to you and bite you on the big toe. I simply have an opinion that I wish to share with others of this forum. You seem to be quite free with your opinions, therefore I feel justified in sharing mine with you and others. I feel that uncovering antiquities of historical importance and then hoarding or selling those antiquities is graverobbing, plain and simple.

There comes a point where the old addage "Finders keepers!" no longer applies, and in the case of New World treasure caches, this holds very true. One should always think of the greater of society before oneself.
Your friend;
LAMAR
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Half of what you say is on target. Recovery of direct burial objects is a no-no for individuals. The 'greater of society' are the only ones licensed for grave robbery. Some of the loot even ends up in museums for the public to see.

Minor caches of valuables (precious metal hoards, currency stashes, ore caches, etc.) belong to the one in possession unless the original owner can prove a claim. Diligence of recovery effort or even blind luck are not forfeited to the 'greater of society', but belong to the individual. As far as the major caches go ('New World treasures'), they are not 'lost' at all - they are still under control of their owners. They won't be 'found' or controlled by an individual outsider.
 

Greetings,

Lamar wrote:
Dear blindbowman;
And this is where you are wrong, my misinformed friend. I DO have a claim to the alledged treasure trove of Tayopa, as much as you or anybody else has. If there is in a fact a treasure, then it's historical impact will far exceed it's current monetary value, no matter how little or how much that may be.

The treasures in question have a history of great depth and therefore it belongs to everybody, not just the person who finds it. I feel that if the treasure is in uncovered, then it should be imediately seized by the US government, willingly if possible, forcibly if not and a paltry, token sum paid to the lucky finder.

Afterwards the treasure should become a part of the Smithsonian Museum for all to view. It's only a shallow minded, selfish individual who would horde such a find of incredible historic value for themself.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Click to expand...

Glad to see your views are so utterly altruistic, in that you apparently allow no reimbursement to the costs, time, and risks taken by the "lucky finder" whatsoever, and have Tayopa seized by the US government, even though we are talking about Mexico. Or perhaps I misread your post, do you think that such treasure, if found, should be taken by the US government regardless of where it is found, and that the "lucky finder" should receive only a "token sum" for his efforts, or do you hold that the "lucky finder" should be recompensed for all of his/her time, expenses, and the very real risks involved?

Your post has a bit of the "sour grapes" taint to it, so that if you cannot have the treasures of Tayopa, then no one should. Can you show where the US, Mexican or Spanish government(s) have collectively or individually financed, equipped, organized and executed ANY search whatsoever for the treasures of Tayopa? Governments rarely spend the time and resources required to locate lost treasures, they would rather sit back and wait for someone else to spend their money, their time even their lives in the search, so the government can then step in and seize the treasure thus recovered - treasure that would have simply rotted away into the basic elements of nature if left to any government agency to recover. In some countries, the treasure may well be taken by the government, but in that case the finders are rewarded with a monetary award equal to the value of the treasure discovered (example UK). I have no problems with that sort of system, which ENCOURAGES treasure hunters to seek out and recover the lost treasures of the past, rather than simply allow them to be dissolved into the soils.

Historical treasure is a very aetherical thing, and gold bars have no more value as historical items than signed papers. Only to a collector does such an item gain more value than its boullion value. So you can sure be free to call me personally "shallow minded and selfish" for I would no sooner surrender any such treasure to any government agent without being rewarded for my efforts and expense, and the reward must be fair and equal in value to that treasure found and recovered before any government agent has any fair claim on it to remove it from my possession, assuming I were so lucky as to have found it.

Seizing a treasure "forcibly" as you suggest Lamar, smacks very much of the old authoritarian types of governments, the monarchies and dictatorships which have proven to be very poor models of government over time. Suppose that in attempting to seize a found treasure, the government ended up having to wound or even KILL the person(s) who had found it, would that be justified in your view Lamar? What if the finder defended himself against the government aggressions, and he/she either wounded or killed one of the agents trying to seize the treasure? I respectfully disagree with your views Lamar in whole and whole-heartedly, and can point to such incidents which HAVE occurred in the recent past; your idea is a very poor one indeed. It has been done, in places such as Turkey, Greece, Italy, and Ecuador and many others - what treasure is worth killing for? Unless of course you feel that it is fully justified that blood should be spilled to seize any treasure from a finder, including the possibility of deaths?

Without the potential for financial reward, virtually no one will expend any effort in attempting to find and retrieve anything lost in the past - or perhaps you, Lamar, would much prefer if that were the case, so that no individual or group that was NOT an authorized agent of the government, could legally do any search for any kind of treasures? Perhaps you believe that metal detectors themselves ought to be outlawed, so that there would be less risk of anyone ever finding a lost treasure? Is it far better for lost treasures of the past to remain in the soils and seas, slowly dissolving into the elements and most to remain LOST FOREVER? I would appreciate if you could enlighten me further with your views.

I have serious doubts about the wisdom of bestowing anything whatsoever to the Smithsonian Institute, considering they already have their display areas filled and their basements and warehouses are overflowing with artifacts that as a result are NEVER shown to the public. :'( If you intend on donating any found treasures to a museum, I would sooner see it go to the local museum in the region where it is found than to be shipped to some large museum which is already overloaded with relics and artifacts to the point that they sell off many donated items just to be rid of them.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek - even if you would prefer that those treasures never get found!

your friend,
Oroblanco
 

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