True Spelling

All,

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Argument from ignorance.

The two most common forms of the argument from ignorance, both fallacious, can be reduced to the following form:

Something is currently unexplained or insufficiently understood or explained, so it is not (or must not be) true.

Because there appears to be a lack of evidence for one hypothesis, another chosen hypothesis is therefore considered proven.

An adage regarding this fallacy from the philosophy of science is that "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence": Not having evidence for something is not proof that something is not or cannot be true. Similarly, merely not having evidence for a particular proposition is not proof that an alternative proposition is instead the case. This is not the same as arguing against something that can, by its nature, never be proven.

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Joe
 

Ed T said:
Well people, the time has come to take that long awaited trip down south. Seeing that I will not be back before the new year, I want to wish all of you a Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. ;)

I hope that things go well while I am down there and I also hope to bring all of you some great pictures back. :)

Take Care,
Ed T ;D
Click to expand...

Have a safe trip Ed - take pictures if you can and we'll be looking forward to some stories upon your return
 

Ladies, Gentlemen, & smooching buddy gully:

Lamar you asked --->

WHO WAS IN CHARGE OF THE ARCHIVES?
~~~~~~~~~

For an answer, this would be better clarified as to, "WHICH ARCHIVES"?

I am back on limited access, I was comepletely out of contact for a period..

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Hi 'CAROLINA LUV, welcome
 

HIO ED: All small Mexican towns now have Intenet cafes etc. @ $ 1:00 per hr so this is no excuse keep us advised within reason.

Hush CJ, my absence was unfortunately due to no access.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Real de Tayopa said:
Ladies, Gentlemen, & smooching buddy gully:

Lamar you asked --->

WHO WAS IN CHARGE OF THE ARCHIVES?
~~~~~~~~~

For an answer, this would be better clarified as to, "WHICH ARCHIVES"?

I am back on limited access, I was comepletely out of contact for a period..

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. Hi 'CAROLINA LUV, welcome
Click to expand...

Real de :) I am glad to see you are well and reconnected ;) Real Just a southern gals point of view where the Jesuits are concerned . > They were sworn to poverty not stupidity ;)
 

Interesting points raised; for instance, if we are to excuse the actions of some of the Jesuit fathers such as Tolla, then we must also excuse the actions of the Pimas and Apaches, such as the burning of nine women and children alive in a house in which Luís Oacpicagigua had tricked them into entering before he barred the doors and set fire to it. After all, he was Captain General, and we don't know what his motivations and reasons were at the moment right? Yes let's not "condemn" a man... ::) :o :-\

What Lamar and Cactusjumper (and others) desire to see is absolute, incontrovertible evidence, and continue to dismiss or ignore all circumstantial evidence. By this standard, a great many facts of history must also be thrown out, including that the Jesuits were ever present in Sonora/Pimeria Alta. What little remains of the buildings are ruins, and could all be the work of the later Franciscans; the documents could all be bogus, falsified and wildly inaccurate; and remember the reports of the first Franciscan friars who said the Pimas of Pimeria Alta were hardly Christian at all on their arrival. Perhaps there were no Jesuits? :o ::) ;D ;) Did they build any churches, or convert any Amerindians, or teach any of their children to read and write? Lamar has already expressed doubt that father Tolla ever existed, well can we be sure that father Kino ever existed? :o ;D :D ;) ::) Oh well mi amigos, we probably will never agree on politics or religion either, but do have great common interests.

Lamar you mentioned that a "great question" ought to be coming to mind for our readers here, and I can assure you that indeed a great question has come to MY mind, and a very clear answer also. Somehow I rather doubt that the question which has come to MY mind is one and the same with the one you are postulating however, nor the most likely answer. ;)

Good luck Ed T, I hope you will tell us of your adventures and finds when you return.

Hola mi amigo Real de Tayopa,
Don Jose de la Mancha wrote:
PEEPS: I just made a trip to ORO Valley, sniff no 'Beth, nor her hanger on Gigalo.
Click to expand...

Sorry I could not be there to greet you in person mi amigo, but I cannot bear even to look at that once-beautiful and remote area now that the developers have begun to despoil it forever. Now living in frigid cold SD Black Hills, and probably won't be back to AZ for at least a year or more and NEVER to Sulphur Hills again. Looking for a slightly different type of place, one that the developers cannot surround and befoul, and yes there IS such a type of property, but as these are fairly uncommon I won't say what type that is; NOT here in public. I don't need competition in buying one! :o ;D

If I don't get back here before Christmas, I wish you all a very Merry Christmas!
your friend,
Oroblanco
 

Ladies & misguided hunters of history and gold: ORO asked/stated --->

Tayopa was not first discovered by Jesuits
~~~~~~~~~~~
\
Sorry my friend, my data on this is is just too nebulous to be quoted on this, but the history of their activities appears that they were both discoverers and utilize-rs of others information and work. All in the name of the cause. See answer to mi Carolina LUV.
==============================================================


MI Carolina LUV stated --->

They were sworn to poverty not stupidity
~~~~~~~~~~~~

It seems that most here have forgotten that most religions, including Catholicism and it's variations, depend heavily upon Opulence and rituals for max effectiveness.

Hence it would be perfectly normal to accept the Lord's gift of precious metals and labor to further the cause of "bringing enlightenment to the poor heathen", as Lamar so elegantly put it.

Naturally, since most were not into daily flagellation, many would also go into a bit more luxurious living to further impress the native populations

I am quite sure that most will agree that a representative of a particular order is more effective if surrounded with opulence and ritual.

A prime example is our POPE in Rome.

Is there any reason why a member of lesser standing would not follow the tendency their spiritual leader's example?

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Well stated My old friend Don Jose,

And a most Merry Christmas to you and yours,
I hope it brings everything you could hope for.

----------------------------------------------------------

And to all friends on this forum !
The same
_--------------------------------

Happy New year to all!!

Thom
Old Dog
 

:) Real de > perfectly stated > without insult or injury to anyone with opposite opinions ;) Merry Christmas, glorious blessings to you and your love ones , sincerely Marjorie
 

Mike,

"General Ignacio Pesqueira (from Arizpe), who opened up silver and gold mines in the vicinity of Cananea, Mexico, he stated that he was reworking abandoned Jesuit Mines that he had found while fighting the Apache. He singlehandedly returned Cananea to prosperity via his mines."

Someone who's pictures and quotes you often use is, Gary Don Oliver. In "Enigma At Tumacacori" he states that his claims at Tumacacori are old Jesuit mines. His descriptions of the Society of Jesus, as it existed in Mexico, has no basis in factual history. I am unsure that he has any source, other than his rather active imagination. ::) That does not bode well for the rest of his endeavors.

I have no doubt that his finds are very exciting and may yield some kind of success, but find it hard to believe he will ever be able to tie them into the Jesuits, nor the questionable "Molina Document". On page 100 he writes this:

"Update Note: In July1992, just prior to publication, the air shaft area was partically re-excavated by Lewis Excavating in Tucson. A very hot metal detector reading was received exactly at the center arrow in photo #29. More explosives, a larger excavator, and more manower will be needed according to the owner of Lewis Excavating."

As that event is over 15 years old, can you tell us what the "hot" reading turned out to be? ???

Thanks in advance.

Have a Very Merry Christmas,

Joe
 

First of all, I don't think I have EVER quoted Gary (except to slap around our buddy Bill Riley who claimed to know him very well, which he didn't). I have only used four or five of his pics, and I have a disc full. I have several sources of information about the Tumacacori Area. Actually, if you read through what I usually say, is that I don't agree with all his assertions.

Did you read the entire book? Before he could excavate the place fully, he ran out of time for that year. every year when he was done, he had to do land reclamation. I think (I may be mistaken about this part) that it was after that, the BLM refused to let him bring in any more heavy equipment (since it had to be brought over private property). Since he lives in Oregon, he can't get out there all the time. He has also spent nearly $100,000 to date (maybe more).

He has found a couple of backfilled shafts. Easy to see how the backfill has settled over time. That guy has committed himself to his ideas. I give him all the credit in the world.

Oh yeah, that quote about General Ignacio Pesqueira had nothing to do with either Gary Oliver or the Molina Document or Map. It was a quote from him on the official website of Cananea, Mexico.

Best-Mike
 

Good morning Mike,

Actually, I plugged the General's name into my search engine and found the quote you used.

I have read Gary's book and came away feeling disappointed. He may have something worthwhile, but put way to much fiction between the covers. I had higher hopes, which is why I bought the book. I am reminded of Barry Storm.

Gary says there was a claim filed on the site, in 1980 (not by him) but that no work had been done. He made his second trip to the site in late 1985. I am unsure when his first trip was, but it's possible the 1985 trip was his first.

When he started working the site there was previous work/excavation that had been done by others. Excavations had been done in the late 1970s and the 80s. It seems a good bet that the site had been worked for many years before that.

The drill holes and tailing's are not that big of a mystery. Nothing points to the Jesuits as having anything to do with the site, other than wishful thinking. About the time he wrote "J. Foss Brown" I had a hard time keeping a straight face. :)

No doubt Gary is a nice guy and sincere in his beliefs. He's one up on Al Morrow in that he did not move onto the site and devote the balance of his life digging barren holes.

The book is a good read, but only if you don't have a clue about Jesuit history. I know, they all lied and Gary has conjured up the truth from his extensive Bibliography on page 101.

One last thing: The "Jesuit Colony area", as far as I know, has still not been annexed into the Tumacacori National Monument. Any update as to why that might be?

Don't mean to offend you, Mike, but it's hard to give Gary's story any credibility.....at least for me. I believe most of his "evidence" is probably modern-day explorations.

Have a good Christmas,

Joe
 

No offense taken Joe,

As I have said so many times before, I don't agree with many of his assertions, but I do think he is in the right area.

I'm also not the only one. A guy named Alan Fecht (who Gary had originally taken in as a partner) went in after Gary had returned to Oregon, and rehired his excavation guy, saying that it was all with Gary's permission, and tried to get into the shaft. He even went so far as to get a bunch of people to give him $16K apiece, to finance his digging. That's a thread in itself though.

There is also a lot of information he doesn't include in his book (like why he thinks the Camp Loco Ruins were originally part of the mission). If it were proved, then the NPS would come in and annex Javelin Canyon, and any hopes of finding what's there would vanish. It's already hard enough to do any digging there.

Best-Mike
 

Mike,

"I'm also not the only one. A guy named Alan Fecht (who Gary had originally taken in as a partner) went in after Gary had returned to Oregon, and rehired his excavation guy, saying that it was all with Gary's permission, and tried to get into the shaft. He even went so far as to get a bunch of people to give him $16K apiece, to finance his digging. That's a thread in itself though.

For an insight into this type of phenomenon, I would suggest you read the case of "Crazy Jake". I would guess that Mr. Fecht was a piker compared to Jake. ::)

Take care,

joe
 

Dear group;
Perhaps the NPS should take control of the area in question. In doing so, they would provide a great service to the surrounding ecology and prevent future generations of treasure hunters from attempting to exhume old worn out dreams. It would seem that nobody is interested in digging for history or for the truth.

It all seems like a very fanciful tale to me. First, we have a man who hired a professional excavator, and to what end? To reopen a mine shaft. This in itself is a very simple proposition as all of the hard labor had already been accomplished previously. All of the blasting and drilling has been completed and all that remains is to redig the abandoned shaft. This sort of work does not require the services of an professional excavator, it merely requires a group of people who don't mind working underground in extremely harsh conditions.

As far as I remember, the geology in that zone lends itself quite nicely to hardrock mining as the formations are solid in nature, with nice tight overhangs, thus shoring may be used sparing or in some instances, not at all.

Imagine for a moment all of the time, money and effort which has been expended in attempting to relocate something which may very well had existed in the first place. How can anybody even be certain that the abandoned shaftings in fact were dug to extract gold or silver ore? If slag piles are present in the area then one may assume that the principle ore was in fact either iron/nickel, copper or tin, and not gold or silver.

There are a great many minerals in the surrounding geology and any one of them may have been mined at some time in the past. As already mentioned, nickel/iron, copper and tin were highly sought after as well as coal, bismuth, salts, cinnabar, etc. Who can positively state that it was not any one of these minerals which the miners were pursuing?

I fear that if and when the end of the sahft has been reached, many hopes and dreams will terminate with it. If one wishes to know what lies at the end of the sahftings, then all one has to do is research, for in the past lies all the answers. It's knowing where to look which is the most difficult part.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

lamar said:
Dear group;
Perhaps the NPS should take control of the area in question. In doing so, they would provide a great service to the surrounding ecology and prevent future generations of treasure hunters from attempting to exhume old worn out dreams. It would seem that nobody is interested in digging for history or for the truth.

It all seems like a very fanciful tale to me. First, we have a man who hired a professional excavator, and to what end? To reopen a mine shaft. This in itself is a very simple proposition as all of the hard labor had already been accomplished previously. All of the blasting and drilling has been completed and all that remains is to re-dig the abandoned shaft. This sort of work does not require the services of an professional excavator, it merely requires a group of people who don't mind working underground in extremely harsh conditions.

As far as I remember, the geology in that zone lends itself quite nicely to hardrock mining as the formations are solid in nature, with nice tight overhangs, thus shoring may be used sparing or in some instances, not at all.

Imagine for a moment all of the time, money and effort which has been expended in attempting to relocate something which may very well had existed in the first place. How can anybody even be certain that the abandoned shafting's in fact were dug to extract gold or silver ore? If slag piles are present in the area then one may assume that the principle ore was in fact either iron/nickel, copper or tin, and not gold or silver.

There are a great many minerals in the surrounding geology and any one of them may have been mined at some time in the past. As already mentioned, nickel/iron, copper and tin were highly sought after as well as coal, bismuth, salts, cinnabar, etc. Who can positively state that it was not any one of these minerals which the miners were pursuing?

I fear that if and when the end of the shaft has been reached, many hopes and dreams will terminate with it. If one wishes to know what lies at the end of the shafting's, then all one has to do is research, for in the past lies all the answers. It's knowing where to look which is the most difficult part.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Click to expand...

well stated . that's why i am not looking for a mine shaft . ..and sorry the NPS dose not have the right to make that choice with out a public hearing & vote to agree to that action ...lol this is still a fedrial protected wilderness area and must apply to fedrial law...and then state law
 

Good Morming My friend LAMAR: you asked -->

Who can positively state that it was not any one of these minerals which the miners were pursuing?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~



The answer to this would be obvious upon simply looking / examining the materiel left and surrounding matrix..

What would remain in question is "were they following a viable lead of metal", i.e. was it merely an advanced prospect hole which played out , or ????

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

lamar said:
Dear group;
Perhaps the NPS should take control of the area in question. In doing so, they would provide a great service to the surrounding ecology and prevent future generations of treasure hunters from attempting to exhume old worn out dreams. It would seem that nobody is interested in digging for history or for the truth.

It all seems like a very fanciful tale to me. First, we have a man who hired a professional excavator, and to what end? To reopen a mine shaft. This in itself is a very simple proposition as all of the hard labor had already been accomplished previously. All of the blasting and drilling has been completed and all that remains is to redig the abandoned shaft. This sort of work does not require the services of an professional excavator, it merely requires a group of people who don't mind working underground in extremely harsh conditions.

As far as I remember, the geology in that zone lends itself quite nicely to hardrock mining as the formations are solid in nature, with nice tight overhangs, thus shoring may be used sparing or in some instances, not at all.

Imagine for a moment all of the time, money and effort which has been expended in attempting to relocate something which may very well had existed in the first place. How can anybody even be certain that the abandoned shaftings in fact were dug to extract gold or silver ore? If slag piles are present in the area then one may assume that the principle ore was in fact either iron/nickel, copper or tin, and not gold or silver.

There are a great many minerals in the surrounding geology and any one of them may have been mined at some time in the past. As already mentioned, nickel/iron, copper and tin were highly sought after as well as coal, bismuth, salts, cinnabar, etc. Who can positively state that it was not any one of these minerals which the miners were pursuing?

I fear that if and when the end of the sahft has been reached, many hopes and dreams will terminate with it. If one wishes to know what lies at the end of the sahftings, then all one has to do is research, for in the past lies all the answers. It's knowing where to look which is the most difficult part.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Click to expand...

Lamar,

Please don't take this the wrong way, but your post shows a severe lack of site specific knowledge regarding the area and the story. Once again, I highly recommend getting the book "Enigma at Tumacacori." It will explain a lot of the issues. The reason that there is so much trouble in excavating the shafts is that this is already part of the Coronado National Forest, and is administered by the BLM. Every year, new permissions must be gotten, new reclamation bonds must be secured, etc. It's not just that easy.

Also, this is the place known throughout Nueva Espana as "Planchas de Plata." It was not unheard of for slabs of raw silver weighing in at 5 arrobas (125 pounds) to be found laying on the surface. This area is home to untold numbers of Silver Mines, and some Gold. In most of the Silver Mines, Gold is also a byproduct.

Best-Mike
 

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