True Spelling

[lamar]

Dear blindbowman;
You asked:

" who gave Fr. tomas tello the right to put anyone in the stocks . who the hell did he think he was god ..."

The reply to this question is, the Crown of Spain gave Fr. Tomas Tello the right mete out justice as the subjects of the Crown of Spain won the lands in the New World and everything on, above and below these lands through the right of conquest, therefore the Crown of Spain owned the land in question and it was their right to rule over their lands as they saw fit.

This fact is pretty plain and it's very well documented over and over, yet you seem to have the most difficult time grasping this rather simple concept. To sum the events of the day, things went like this:
Columbus, after discovering new lands to the West, returned to Spain and reported the news. The first Conquistadores arrived later and, after filling their ships with gold and silver, returned to Spain. The race was on! Others followed and soon plundered the New World for all they were worth. Missionaries came and converted natives to Christianity. The short version is, Spain won, the natives lost. Deal with it.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

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[lamar]

Dear oroblanco;
From reading the eyewitness accounts taken from archives at Guadalajara, one may conclude that the Jesuits in question were in fact quite benevolent in their day to day dealings with the local populaces. This is in stark contrast to the settlements along the Eastern Seaboard of the present day United States of America, where the Puritans, Quakers, Shakers and other fanatics were conducting witch hunts and in fact burning women at the stake. During this same timeframe, a person in England could be executed for having commited any one of TWO HUNDRED AND TWENTY-TWO capitol crimes, including chopping down a SINGLE TREE! In my very humble opinion, life in the missions of New Spain was very good in comparison to the rest of the world.

What has happened is a very common occurrence in regards to researching one certain facet of history or only a small timeline. Opinions by the researcher(s) are formed which may be wholly false as to the activities of a single person or a small group, when in fact the person(s) being researched may have been quite kind and charitable, given the age in which they lived. In England, during the 1700s and into the early 1800s, children as young a FIVE YEARS OLD were hanged for minor crimes, most of them alleged. This occurred with alarming regularity in a CIVILIZED country, so the death of a pregnant woman during this era would scarely have raised an eyebrow anywhere in the world during the 1700s.

Please, do not be so quick to condemn nor so harsh to judge until ALL of the facts of the matter are known and laid on the table.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

I see.

We all see, Oro. Tightly and comfortably sealed in a box. No light, no desire, no curiosity. Dead man walking.

 

[BILL96]

While I take everything I read here with a grain of salt, trying constantly to cross check and reverify. The amount of information and all the differnt people who post here make for wonderful reading and truley a great source of information. I have met people and learned so much that I never would have known about if it were not for this forum. No inteligent person would take everything posted here as a fact but it is such a great source of conversation from such diverse people literely from around the world.

Gollum,
1ore1, great site lot of good information
Bill

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Did I somehow miss a post or two? I am now wondering what this latest tirade is all about. Would someone please fill me in.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[the blindbowman]

na your just loseing it ...LOL you couldnt spell the other day ,now you dont know whats going on , i think you may have a brain tumor, dont you guys think he may have a brain tumor . damn dude you go in the blink of eye .. na whats takeing a piss got to do with it ....lol well look at it the good way your haf way there , if the doctor says your dieing you dont got to see a priest ...lol

 

[gollum]

Gollum,
1ore1, great site lot of good information
Bill

Thanks Bill. It will likely never be finished, as there will always be something new to add when I stumble across it.

Merry Christmas-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Mike, 1oro1 - nice website and lots of interesting information! My compliments, sir, I hope you will continue with this effort that benefits not only us treasure hunters but anyone interested in history as well.

Lamar, I don't understand how our communications have failed but perhaps it is my own fault - if you have time and don't mind pointing it up for me, can you show me where I said:

That the whole of the Jesuit Society was mining;

That the whole of the Jesuit Society was involved in evil and wicked acts;

That this directly reflects on the Roman Catholic Church;

That the incidents which have been posted were NOT the actions of individuals but were by the whole of the Society of Jesus and of the Roman Catholic Church as well;

That the Spanish and Catholic Church were more wicked and/or cruel than any other European colonizing power such as the French, English or Dutch, or the Amerindians for that matter;

I honestly just cannot recall ever saying these things, yet this seems to be the impression you have gotten from my postings. If these things are indeed what I posted, it was entirely in error and deserves my profuse apologies for such misleading statements when what I have been driving at from the beginning was at INDIVIDUALS and NOT the whole of the Society of Jesus, nor the Roman Catholic Church, nor the Spanish crown authorities.

Lamar wrote:

Please, do not be so quick to condemn nor so harsh to judge until ALL of the facts of the matter are known and laid on the table.

Again, I am not sure where our communications have become so crossed, perhaps you or someone else can point up where I have condemned wrongfully or judged harshly without merit? I would appreciate it. I would also say that it is not possible, without having a fully functional time machine, to have ALL of the facts for any historical event or incident at this time. We must either work with what information is available, and try to reach our conclusions based on this, or not examine history at all since we cannot have all of the information.

I noticed that you neglected to answer a few of the questions I posted for you Lamar, and whether this was oversight or deliberate does not matter - I just wanted to be honest and tell you that there was one "trick" question in among them:

"Do you know who is credited with first discovering and developing Tayopa?"

From what I can recall, (I cannot access my own books, notes or references as all are packed in a large moving truck, and unfortunately located near the very front) Tayopa was not first discovered by Jesuits, it was a pair of Spanish men who went prospecting in the site after hearing from natives that silver could be found there. They were not able to establish a legal claim to the mine and site so ownership and development were by other hands, but FIRST discovery of the original mine (which ended up being a whole group) was, again relying on memory, NOT the Jesuits. If my memory is in error (quite possible) I hope that our mutual friend Real de Tayopa can correct me on this point?

Lamar wrote:

Dear group;
Did I somehow miss a post or two? I am now wondering what this latest tirade is all about. Would someone please fill me in.

I am not sure what you mean by tirade, or if perhaps one or more posts have been removed or edited at this point? I could very well have missed something as well.

Springfield wrote:

We all see, Oro. Tightly and comfortably sealed in a box. No light, no desire, no curiosity. Dead man walking

I am not surprised that you, Springfield as well as many of our other members and guests are able to see. What I find sad is that some folks WILL NOT see - even when it is before their eyes. That sort of attitude will condemn us to repeat the errors of history.


Cubfan I don't know if this has been posted before or not, but this place:

http://home.nps.gov/applications/tuma/search.cfm (Mission 2000 database)

has LOADS of original Spanish colonial documents related to Arizona and the southwest, including many photos of the original documents, and many are cross-referenced and search-able.
Also, this site:

http://parentseyes.arizona.edu/tubac/ "Tubac through four centuries"

has a lot of information mainly centered on Tubac of course. I prefer original sources whenever possible, for all research into lost mines or lost treasures but sometimes we are forced to rely on secondary or even third-hand sources, which can be very unreliable and too often fraught with errors.

I only WISH we had such excellent resources available online for Tayopa, as well as many of the other lost mines of old Mexico. If anyone could suggest such sites, I for one would very much appreciate if you would share the links? (I am not hunting Tayopa, but do enjoy reading the history.) Besides, there ARE other lost mines in old Mexico which remain un-discovered...... 8) (Something to give treasure hunters hope! )

There has been quite a bit of religion-oriented statements in this thread, so let me add a Bible reference for you all to look up:

Luke 11:9

(if you don't have a bible handy, you can find this online at:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=49&chapter=11&verse=9&version=9&context=verse)

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.

your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

Thanks Oro - you weren't kidding that those sites are EXTENSIVE!!! Further additions to my rapidly growing information sites

Have a Happy Holiday

 

[Springfield]

Mike, 1oro1 - nice website and lots of interesting information! My compliments, sir, I hope you will continue with this effort that benefits not only us treasure hunters but anyone interested in history as well.

Mike, I echo Roy's praise. Thanks for your efforts and thanks in advance for more to come.

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
All of this huge amount of material is fine and dandy, yet there is not a single shred of viable evidence that the Society of Jesus was in any way involved in the illegal or illicit removal of valuable ores from lands belonging to the Spanish Crown or any of Its' grantees. And what's more, nobody will EVER find any damning evidence in the existing archives anywhere in the world because there exists NO INCRIMINATING evidence.

And now I must state here and now that I am surprised and saddened by the entire lot of you. As much as each of you professes to be a researcher of the highest order, not a solitary soul among you has asked the only REALLY IMPORTANT question. I, on the other hand, am privy to BOTH the question AND the answer. All everyone needs to do is to sit down and think everything through VERY carefully and the answer will surely come, and if not, then at the very least, the question will reveal itself. Think carefully and thoroughly.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[BILL96]

Lamar,
I had a teacher in school who spoke similer to the way you do and he was also surprised and saddened by the whole lot of us. I must confess may need help with the question
Thanks,Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Lamar,

It would appear that the answer is not nearly so important as the question........

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
I tend to agree with the assessment that once the question is known then the answer is revealed. And trust me, it's a very deep, thought provoking question, and it amazes me why nobody has yet to think of it. For in this single question, lies an entire volume of explanations and at the same time, begs even more questions.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Lamar,

Asking a question which is "a very deep, thought provoking question" brings it's own reward in the replies/questions/answers that it generates. I should think that discourse would be worth much more than the game you are playing. If the game is giving you more pleasure than providing the vehicle for further debate and elucidation on the topic, by all means continue.

In the meantime, quite jerking us around.

Have a Very Merry Christmas,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Dear group;
All of this huge amount of material is fine and dandy, yet there is not a single shred of viable evidence that the Society of Jesus was in any way involved in the illegal or illicit removal of valuable ores from lands belonging to the Spanish Crown or any of Its' grantees. And what's more, nobody will EVER find any damning evidence in the existing archives anywhere in the world because there exists NO INCRIMINATING evidence.

And now I must state here and now that I am surprised and saddened by the entire lot of you. As much as each of you professes to be a researcher of the highest order, not a solitary soul among you has asked the only REALLY IMPORTANT question. I, on the other hand, am privy to BOTH the question AND the answer. All everyone needs to do is to sit down and think everything through VERY carefully and the answer will surely come, and if not, then at the very least, the question will reveal itself. Think carefully and thoroughly.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Actually, the evidence DOES incriminate the Padres of the Tumacacori Mission. If the tailings HAD come from a legitimate Spanish Mining Operation, it would have been mentioned often in the writings from both Kino's Diarias and the Mission Documents themselves (being as it was only a couple of miles from the mission itself), yet no mention is ever made of any large mine that near the mission. Seems that with so large an operation, the miners would have been constantly buying goods from the Tumacacori Mission. Why the secrecy? Maybe because the Jesuit Brothers themselves were the ones operating the mine? That's my guess.

Maybe the question you have in mind is of great importance to YOU, and maybe you overestimate the importance of your question in the grand scheme of things. So.................................why don't you lay the question on us, and let the world judge just how important your question and it's answer are?

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I believe you are making a great leap in logic here. I don't believe the church and buildings described, along with the slag pile, have any connection to the Society of Jesus......at all.

"This building was re-roofed in 1791 and probably suffered badly in one of the Indian raids subsequent to 1800. A new church was then planned and the construction was started. This church was still under construction in 1822 but work was being held up by delay over the payment for some cattle which were being sold to raise funds and I am convinced by my study of the walls that the church was never completed. Manuscript evidence bearing on the construction of the new church is found in the burial record, where Padre Ramon Liberos made an entry to the effect that on December 13, 1822, he had removed the bodies of Padres Carrillo and Gutierrez from the old church to the new and buried them on the Gospel side of the altar. From this evidence it is reasonable to assume that the present church was still under construction at the death of Padre Gutierrez, which occurred in 1820, and he was buried in the old church. By the latter part of 1822 the new church was nearly enough completed to be dedicated and, the old church being abandoned, the bodies of these fathers were removed to the new, to prevent desecration. On the evidence as it stands, we cannot assume the present mission walls at Tumacacori to date earlier than 1800."

In the last report, dated 1860, made to the mining organization of which he was the general agent, Prof. W. Wrightson thus describes the Tumacacori Mission.

"The church is an adobe building plastered with cement and coped with burnt brick. The front is of the Moorish style, and had on the southeast corner a tower, the top of which was burnt brick. The roof of the church was flat and was covered with cement and tiles. The timbers have now fallen and decayed. The chancel was surmounted with a dome, which is still in good preservation. Adjacent to the church, in the form of a hollow square, were the residences of the priests, containing spacious and airy rooms, with every evidence of comfort and refinement, while surrounding these in the interior, was an arched colonnade, forming a shady walk around the whole inclosure. To the east of this square of sumptious residences was an oblong building, where the metallurgical operations were carried on. Here are still the remains of furnaces and quantities of slag, attesting the purpose for which this was formerly used; and further still to the east was the garden, including about five acres and surrounded by a cahone wall. The acequia passed through this, and here are the remains of a bathing place and washing vat. There are also fruit trees and vines still growing; while in the rear of the church is the campus santi, a burial ground surrounded by a strong adobe wall, well covered with cement, and even now the best inclosure in Arizona. To the south of the mission building, and fronting the church, was laid out a large plaza, which was surrounded by peon houses, thus forming a respectable village."

How do you explain your trying to tie the Jesuits to these buildings, when they were built no earlier than 1800?

"Early historical documents also record that Spanish colonists were mining gold and silver deposits in the Santa Rita Mountains and in the area of the Guevavi mission before they fled during the Pima Revolt of 1751. Although colonists returned to the valley after a presidio was established at Tubac the following year, the Santa Cruz Valley was largely abandoned again during the 1760s, due to increasing Apache attacks. Some settlers returned during the 1770s and resumed work in some of the silver mines in the Santa Rita Mountains, introducing the amalgamation method of processing silver ore with mercury."

"Apparently area settlers utilized Tumacácori for non-religious purposes from mid-1861 to the 1880s.After the area was abandoned in mid-1861 it probably sheltered only occasional prospectors who looked for the "Jesuit mines." Some of these men undoubtedly camped in the sacristy where they built fires as attested by the soot on that room's ceiling."

Tumacacori was abandoned in 1848 and that lasted for 51 years. The Jesuits had nothing to do with the buildings/ruins that were reported in 1860 by Professor Wrightson.

Is it possible that the prospectors who used the mission between 1848 and 1860, could have used the grounds to process ore that they found in their prospecting.

In closing, there are many possibilities as to how the slag arrived at the mission, as described in 1860. Jesuit involvement is not one. Any questions?

Take care and have a Very Merry Christmas,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
OK, lets review what's happened thus far. The Jesuits, who stood accused of illegal mining in not only one, but in many circles, walked away relatively unscathed from the allegations. Would it seem odd that with so many accusations having been pointed at them, that there must have SURELY been at least one or two documented accusations?
Oddly enough, there are none. They simply do not exist anywhere in any of the existing archived documentation. And now, here is the million dollar question.......
During the colonization of the New World, up to the time of the expulsion of the Jesuit Order,

WHO WAS IN CHARGE OF THE ARCHIVES?

Once this question is answered then a lot of other questions will get answered at the same time.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

CJ,

First off; Merry Christmas to you and everyone else.

Next; You think the rebuilt Tumacacori Mission was built somewhere far away from the building that occupied the site previously? I doubt it. Does that mean that the Jesuits were the ones who worked the smelters and produced the slag? Nope. Nothing (to date) can absolutely tie the Jesuits with mines. If such were true, then we would not be having this discussion, would we?

What we DO HAVE, is a LOT of circumstantial evidence that point in the direction of the Jesuit Order. We have a LOUD SILENCE of documented references to any nearby large scale mines in the Tumacacori Mission Annals, and Diarias of Padre Kino. As I stated previously, any mine of the size that would produce 150,000 square feet of tailings (those, plus what was used to backfill the shafts), would need a lot of supplies, and since it was within a couple of miles of the Mission, it only seems natural that SOME mention of this mine would have been found. But alas, it has not. Any mining activity of that immensity would not have gone along secretly in modern times, due to the influx of people into the area after the Indians settled down. That leaves us with an enormous mine, that left an enormous tailings pile, that has not been known in modern times, that is absolutely missing.

We have little statements by people in years gone by like:

General Ignacio Pesqueira (from Arizpe), who opened up silver and gold mines in the vicinity of Cananea, Mexico, he stated that he was reworking abandoned Jesuit Mines that he had found while fighting the Apache. He singlehandedly returned Cananea to prosperity via his mines.

We also have this little ditty of which one was found in Spain by Henry O. Flipper in 1912, and one was found in the possession of the Priest of the small village of Guadalupe de Santa Ana in Sonora, Mexico in 1927:

Four bells, the largest weighing 28 arrobas and 17 pounds on which where inscribed Tayopa. One bell inscribed TAYOPA. One bell inscribed REMEDIOS. Weight 11 arrobas and 10 pounds.One small bell inscribed PIEDAD. Weight 5 arrobas. These bells were cast in 1603 by the Right Reverend Father Ignacio Maria de Retana.

One high cross of carved silver from the Tayopa mine, weight 1 arroba, 15 pounds, with an attached crucifix of hammered gold from the Paramo placer.A pair of processional.candle holders and six bars of hammered silver, weighing 4 arrobas, 13 pounds from Santo Nino Mine.Four incensories of silver and gold plated, weighing 1 arroba, 3 pounds from the Cristo Mine. In a cut-stone box are stored jewellery. Box is buried in basement under room built of stone and mud, between the church and side of convent and fruit garden.

One large custody with silver bracket, weighing 1 arroba from Santo Nino Mine, with gold glimmer from placer El Paramo and four fine mounted stones from Remedios Mine.Two silver chalices from the Jesus Maria y Jose Mine, and twelve solid gold cups. Six gold plates made from the Jesus Maria y Jose Mine, and twelve solid gold cups. Six gold plates made from Cristo Mine and Purisima Mine, and two large communion plates of gold made from placer El Paramo.One shrine with four hammered silver columns weighing 4 arrobas from Senor de la Buena Muerto Mine.Sixty-five cargas [packloads] of silver packed in cow-hide bags, each containing 8 arrobas, 12 pounds. Eleven cargas of gold from four mines and placer El Paramo, each wrapped in cloth and cow-hide, with a total weight of 99 arrobas [2512 pounds].Also 183 arrobas of Castilla ore, and 65 arrobas first-class Castilla ore from El Paramo, with a know assay of 22 carats, clean and without mercury.

For the knowledge of our Vicar General, I have written this to inform our Superior



Maybe we can find out the truth regarding Father Polzer SJ (the largest detractor of the idea of Jesuit Mines) having been asked to leave Mexico after he and a friend went to try and claim one such treasure(Tayopa) for the church.



Just a couple of mentionings.

Lamar,

Wrong again, Mi Amigo! We have only to look at the Portugese Jesuit Expulsion to find accusations of illegal mining activities.

Best-Mike

 

[the blindbowman]

i think the jesuits are full of shit , i dont think they had anything what sp ever to do with this treasure at all . i think they wanted to make people think they did so they could try to have some legal clam on the treasure if it was ever found ,,,,losers ...