True Spelling

[the blindbowman]

no in fact i like reading about the jesuits but i just posted in the topic because i wanted to know more about the spelling of Tayopa not the jesuits or someone preaching to me ,when we could be talling about the topic of this post , lamar has done a great job distractin the post from the topic ...

i waited for over a week to see if the replies got back on topic . i guess not so i will go do research on my own ..

if you guys want to play follow the leader with lamar , go ahead .. i got better things to do ....you guys have a merry xmas and a happy new year ...latter

 

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[lamar]

Dear oroblanco;
With tremendous respect, my friend, perhaps you need to read my words a bit closer.
I stated:
"There is no hard evidence as yet discovered that the Jesuits ever mined for gold, silver, or precious stones in the New World. There is also no supporting evidence that the Jesuits were illegally administering to any such activities."
To which you replied:
"It seems that perhaps you have not researched the matter of Jesuits and mining activities specifically in Sonora/Pimeria Alta during the colonial period or you would have known that occasionally the reales de minas were administered by Jesuits, and that after 1664 it was illegal for them to do so unless requested by the authorities."
I am a trifle confused by your retort. Which part of my answer did you fail to understand? I feel that I wrote it in a fairly clean and concise manner, and used small words, therefore it should be understood in it's entirety. Also, there were many, many, many regular priests among the Jesuits, just as there is today. There seems to be a great deal of confusion over the inner workings of the Roman Catholic Church and it's various religious Orders in particular. A parish priest is exactly that, he ministers and lives in a parish, be that parish the Vatican, a huge city, a small rural village, a section of land, a monastery, or a mission. In context, it makes no difference where the parish is at or who is running it, to the priest it's a parish.

It's not unusual for a priest from the Fransican Order to be minister in a Jesuit mission, or vice versa. In fact, any combination of priests from the over 200 various Catholic Orders may be found in any of the missions in question. Once a priest assumes his vows, that priest is then in fact a priest in the Roman Catholic Church. Period. It makes absolutely no difference from which order the priest was taught or trained, he is a Roman Catholic priest, nothing else. That the various Orders use initials of their base Order is of no consequence, and this practice has fallen out of general usage in modern times as it no longer has any meaning. Back in the old days, the initials were used as sort of a guide to let everyone know who was where and what they were doing.

Again, it's difficult for me to explain how the Roman Catholic Church operates to someone who is not already familiar with the Church on this or any other forum. For those wishing to understand more fully the Catholic Church I would suggest attending a monastery or other such similiar measures.

As for the treatment of the natives, what can I, or anyone else say? Times were rough back then, my friend. People were killing one another left and right and a little light scrouging with a cat o' nine tails was considered minor punishment back in those days. I attended Catholic schools and the nuns and priests seemed to have had the singular goal of trying mightily to remove the skin from my posterior, or so it seemed at the time. Cruel and unusual punishment? Hardly. I deserved every lash and then some, only I didn't get caught. So the natives got lashed? So what? So did an entire host of others. It was an odd sailor who never tasted the whip from the boatswain or a rattan cane across the shoulders from the quartermaster. These were not natives, these were Europeans and they were being flogged and whipped with abandon, and I don't hear anyone screeching out about injustices for THEM. It was simply the times, nothing more and nothing less. Until you are able to wrap your brain around this fact, then yes, everything the Jesuits did could be construed as cruel. But it wasn't the Jesuits who were cruel, it was the world surrounding them that was cruel. The Jesuits were actually pretty lax in their collective treatment of the natives, much to the chagrin of the neighboring settlers. This is not just a supposition, this is an historical fact.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear EdT;
I feel you may be closer to the truth than you realize my friend. When the Conquistadores arrived in the New World, they were amazed at the seemingly endless supply of gold, yet at the same time they were confused as to it's origins. Gold of that quantity MUST have come from the ground, yet they found no mines of great concern. This puzzled the Conquistadores to no end and most likely this is where the lost mine legends sprang from.

The truth may very well be that the gold in question came from rivers and streams and it is well documented that the natives did know how to use bateas (large wooden troughs or bowls) to separate the gold from the gravels. It has been surmised in recent times that the vast majority of gold came from wet placer workings and that actual hardrock mining may very well have been beyond the technology and means of the natives during the time of the Conquest.

That the enatives were able to extract emeralds and other semi-precious stones from the earth is due in no small part to the relative ease which the host rock could stripped away in Colombia and Brazil. The surrounding quartz is porous and flaky in nature and therefore it is somewhat easier to tunnel through it than it would be in other parts of the New World, where the surrounding matrix is dense and solid.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Lamar and everyone,

Lamar wrote:

With tremendous respect...I wrote it in a fairly clean and concise manner, and used small words...Until you are able to wrap your brain around this fact &c

With such respect as this I should be well flattered. It appears that you are either un-willing or unable to perceive the events from the Amerindian point of view. It is quite apparent that you are also either un-willing or unable to admit that some INDIVIDUALS behaved badly, and it is these INDIVIDUALS to whom I ascribe the Jesuit mining activities, NOT to the Society of Jesus as a whole, NOR to the Catholic Church. You have made those connections and assumptions, though I do not understand how I could have used the term INDIVIDUALS any more plainly nor more often to try to make the point that it was NOT the whole of the Jesuits nor the Catholic Church that I was referring to.

Lamar also wrote:

As for the treatment of the natives, what can I, or anyone else say? Times were rough back then, my friend. <snip> So the natives got lashed? So what? So did an entire host of others.<snip>But it wasn't the Jesuits who were cruel, it was the world surrounding them that was cruel. The Jesuits were actually pretty lax in their collective treatment of the natives, much to the chagrin of the neighboring settlers. This is not just a supposition, this is an historical fact.

So you do take the position that father Tomas Tello was NOT being cruel to keep a pregnant Amerindian woman imprisoned in stocks until she DIED? Your positions are not easily understood mi amigo and I cannot believe that the Society of Jesus or the Catholic Church approved of the actions of Father Tello, SJ or for that matter Father Garrucho, SJ. I also do not agree with your conclusion as to what constitutes "historical fact". It looks like we can never agree on this subject.

Good luck and good hunting to you Lamar, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear oroblanco;
Before you condemn someone, you had best ask some very pointed questions. What was the womans' crime that sent her to the stocks? Was she in good health before being subjected to the stocks? Was she examined my a competent medical doctor before her punishment began? Could her death have not been related to her punishment, either directly or indirectly? What was the state of the womans' mental health? What about her spiritual health? Is it possible that she was punished at the behest of one of the village chiefs for some type of refusal or indiscretion? See where this is leading, my friend?

What we know are three things:
1) Woman was pregnant
2) Woman was sentenced to the stocks (no length of time given for the punishment, oddly enough)
3) Woman perished while in the stocks

What we do not know is EVERYTHING ELSE leading up to her demise. I, for one absolutely REFUSE to denounce someones' actions as wrong or incorrect with such a scanty amount of reliable information at hand. For all I know, Fr. Tomas Tello was completely within his rights in sentencing the woman to the stocks, if he in fact did so, or even if he in fact actually existed.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

I see.

 

[the blindbowman]

Dear oroblanco;
Before you condemn someone, you had best ask some very pointed questions. What was the womans' crime that sent her to the stocks? Was she in good health before being subjected to the stocks? Was she examined my a competent medical doctor before her punishment began? Could her death have not been related to her punishment, either directly or indirectly? What was the state of the womans' mental health? What about her spiritual health? Is it possible that she was punished at the behest of one of the village chiefs for some type of refusal or indiscretion? See where this is leading, my friend?

What we know are three things:
1) Woman was pregnant
2) Woman was sentenced to the stocks (no length of time given for the punishment, oddly enough)
3) Woman perished while in the stocks

What we do not know is EVERYTHING ELSE leading up to her demise. I, for one absolutely REFUSE to denounce someones' actions as wrong or incorrect with such a scanty amount of reliable information at hand. For all I know, Fr. Tomas Tello was completely within his rights in sentencing the woman to the stocks, if he in fact did so, or even if he in fact actually existed.
Your friend;
LAMAR

who gave Fr. tomas tello the right to put anyone in the stocks . who the hell did he think he was god ... your faith killed christ because you could stand any one being closer to god then your chruch ...now you come here and tell us you can kill anyone you want but you set and make up all this BS to try to confuse the facts , the women is dead by the hands of a member of your chruch not hers ..

 

[Cubfan64]

Oro said

It looks like we can never agree on this subject.

I would agree that's more than a pretty fair assumption at this point. I've stayed pretty much out of this discussion as I just don't have the background and knowledge to add anything, however it's been a very interesting read to see the 2 different sides to things.

If nothing else, I now have a myriad of resources to look up if I should choose to educate myself further on the subject of Jesuits in the New World.

 

[Cubfan64]

Dear oroblanco;
Before you condemn someone, you had best ask some very pointed questions. What was the womans' crime that sent her to the stocks? Was she in good health before being subjected to the stocks? Was she examined my a competent medical doctor before her punishment began? Could her death have not been related to her punishment, either directly or indirectly? What was the state of the womans' mental health? What about her spiritual health? Is it possible that she was punished at the behest of one of the village chiefs for some type of refusal or indiscretion? See where this is leading, my friend?

What we know are three things:
1) Woman was pregnant
2) Woman was sentenced to the stocks (no length of time given for the punishment, oddly enough)
3) Woman perished while in the stocks

What we do not know is EVERYTHING ELSE leading up to her demise. I, for one absolutely REFUSE to denounce someones' actions as wrong or incorrect with such a scanty amount of reliable information at hand. For all I know, Fr. Tomas Tello was completely within his rights in sentencing the woman to the stocks, if he in fact did so, or even if he in fact actually existed.
Your friend;
LAMAR

who gave Fr. tomas tello the right to put anyone in the stocks . who the hell did he think he was god ... your faith killed christ because you could stand any one being closer to god then your chruch ...now you come here and tell us you can kill anyone you want but you set and make up all this BS to try to confuse the facts , the women is dead by the hands of another , because he beleive he dose gods work , #@!$%#@! you and chruch ...the ends of days are close and i will smile when i hear of the fall of chruch ... and it will fall...

BB said

if you guys want to play follow the leader with lamar , go ahead .. i got better things to do ....you guys have a merry xmas and a happy new year ...latter

I don't get why you constantly say things like this when you have no intention of following through. It's like saying "I'm taking my ball and going home" and then sitting behind the nearest tree and watching.

I suggest the next post on this subject be moved to the religious forum because I FOR ONE don't want to see this entire thread wiped out as there is too much good information here!!!!

 

[CarolinaDigs]

Cub I am with YOU on this one. Who was this pregnant woman ? Why was she put in the stocks ? I have tried researching this and at a lost end.

 

[the blindbowman]

what ever ...what dose any of this have to do with the spelling of Tayopa .. it dosent ! and i could care less if lamar wants to post till he is blue in the face as long as he stays on topic .a little off is one thing but he hasnt been on topic yet ...

 

[CarolinaDigs]

what ever ...

What ever does it end here ? I feel as though I have been reading the great debates You guys are intense and really interesting in your post. I am on a break from my art world and these threads are the best relaxation ever for me

 

[the blindbowman]

what ever ...

What ever does it end here ? I feel as though I have been reading the great debates You guys are intense and really interesting in your post. I am on a break from my art world and these threads are the best relaxation ever for me

you want it to end here digs ,,, OK

 

[Oroblanco]

CarolinaDigs wrote:

Who was this pregnant woman ? Why was she put in the stocks ? I have tried researching this and at a lost end.

I would suggest checking the history of the 1751 Pima Revolt, a good deal of information is available online. In particular, check on the actions of Father Tomas Tello SJ who was stationed at Caborca.
An overview of the 1751 revolt:
http://www.nps.gov/tuma/historyculture/pima-uprising-of-1751.htm

Mission at Caborca:
http://www.nps.gov/tuma/historyculture/la-purisima-concepcion-de-caborca.htm

Father Tello:
http://home.nps.gov/applications/tuma/detail.cfm?Personal_ID=3288
http://www.nps.gov/archive/tuma/Tello.html

List of Jesuit priests who worked in Sonora/Pimeria Alta
http://www.nps.gov/archive/tuma/Jesuits.html

I honestly did not wish to drag such horrific accusations into this discussion as Tello's incident; my purpose was to point out that misbehavior did occur, and coupled with the admittedly circumstantial evidence (circumstantial evidence is still evidence) such as the admission from a Jesuit about a fellow Jesuit who was working a mine and using Indian laborers, the incident involving a "missionary" and a lost silver ledge that occurred in Huabasas mission where father Nentvig was stationed, and the incident in which an Indian gave silver nuggets into the hand of a Jesuit missionary would serve to show that SOME Jesuits were in fact involved in mining. Unfortunately this was taken as a direct attack and accusation against the whole of the Society of Jesus and the Catholic Church as well.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[CarolinaDigs]

Thank you I will indeed do more research on this . I am here to learn > From what I have ever read concerning the Jesuits , they liked wealth and had wealth , if there were a mine that produce gold or silver , sounds to reason they would have involvement in it

 

[Oroblanco]

I realize that the Jesuits took vows of PERSONAL poverty, but their mission churches were not necessarily quite so poverty-stricken. Here is a description:

All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well. There are also choruses of Indian singers, and masses are celebrated nearly every Sunday, on days of obligation and on the principal festival days with vespers the evening before when required. And there are processions and other ceremonies of the Holy Church which are accomplished with all possible dignity in order to present a visual display of the majesty of our Holy Religion to the neophytes so that they may remain impressed with its splendor and be attracted to it. Their disposition piae affectionis2 is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears.

(from Rudo Ensayo, Nentvig)

Now let me point up an example of just how a "Jesuit Treasure" story can originate:

My Reverend Father Gaspar Stiger,<snip>
I came to Terrenate yesterday to hide the ornaments of the church and a family.
Terrenate, November 28, 1751
Your Humble Servant, Keller
If Your Reverence should see the Father Visitor and Juan, give them my affection.
letter from Ignacio Xavier Keller SJ to Gaspar Stiger SJ, Terrenate, November 28, 1751
(AGI, Guadalajara 419, 3m-49, page 2)

This is DURING the Pima Revolt of 1751, and father Keller SJ took the precaution of hiding the church ornaments of Terranate as well as protecting a family that was in danger. These church ornaments are not simple wood and clay pottery but what would be considered valuable today, silver and gold. So now how could such an incident ever have given birth to a legend of Jesuits hiding treasures? Can you think of a way? Hmm.

Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

what ever ...what dose any of this have to do with the spelling of Tayopa .. it dosent ! and i could care less if lamar wants to post till he is blue in the face as long as he stays on topic .a little off is one thing but he hasnt been on topic yet ...

Lamar wrote in his FIRST post in this thread on Nov 20, 2007

Dear group
The pronounciation of the LL in Spanish strictly depends on the location the language is spoken in. Throughout much of Latin America the LL is pronounced as a Y in English, however in parts of South America and Southern Spain it's pronouned as a J would be in English. And, to further confuse matters, in most regions of Spain(where my parents came from) the LL is pronounced as an "L-Y" in English, the same way we pronounce MILLION in English. So the word GALLINA (CHICKEN) can be correctly pronounced as GUY-YE-NA, GUY-GEE-NA, or GUILE-YE-NA. Confusing, huh?

The word or name TAYOPA is NOT Spanish at all as there are no words in Spanish which start with the letters TAY, rather it's most likely some form of Aztec, if it is in fact a true word or name at all. Based on my limited knowledge of the Aztec, I will assume that it's pronounced as TIE-YO-PAW, with the accent resting heavily on the final syllable PAW, like this: "tie-yo-PAW"

The tilde ~ spoken about is found over the N and the letter is known as the NY (pronounced as N-YEA) in Spanish. It has since fall out of favor and now the modern version is simply a line - over the N as this is easier to write and type. Spanish class is now over for the evening. Carry on.
Your friend;
LAMAR

The thread shortly began to drift towards a discussion of Jesuit history into which a number of people became involved without anyone desiring to steer it back to the original topic - that happens quite often.

If you were solely interested in the original topic, you should have tried to steer it there back in Nov. rather than joining in the discussion. I don't happen to agree with quite a few of the things Lamar has said, however I do have an open enough mind to entertain all the sides to the discussion - including yours BB! I would have expected someone who has developed some pretty wild theories to exhibit the same openminded outlook on others.

 

[Cubfan64]

CarolinaDigs wrote:

Who was this pregnant woman ? Why was she put in the stocks ? I have tried researching this and at a lost end.

I would suggest checking the history of the 1751 Pima Revolt, a good deal of information is available online. In particular, check on the actions of Father Tomas Tello SJ who was stationed at Caborca.
An overview of the 1751 revolt:
http://www.nps.gov/tuma/historyculture/pima-uprising-of-1751.htm

Mission at Caborca:
http://www.nps.gov/tuma/historyculture/la-purisima-concepcion-de-caborca.htm

Father Tello:
http://home.nps.gov/applications/tuma/detail.cfm?Personal_ID=3288
http://www.nps.gov/archive/tuma/Tello.html

List of Jesuit priests who worked in Sonora/Pimeria Alta
http://www.nps.gov/archive/tuma/Jesuits.html

I honestly did not wish to drag such horrific accusations into this discussion as Tello's incident; my purpose was to point out that misbehavior did occur, and coupled with the admittedly circumstantial evidence (circumstantial evidence is still evidence) such as the admission from a Jesuit about a fellow Jesuit who was working a mine and using Indian laborers, the incident involving a "missionary" and a lost silver ledge that occurred in Huabasas mission where father Nentvig was stationed, and the incident in which an Indian gave silver nuggets into the hand of a Jesuit missionary would serve to show that SOME Jesuits were in fact involved in mining. Unfortunately this was taken as a direct attack and accusation against the whole of the Society of Jesus and the Catholic Church as well.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

Thanks for the additional resources Oro!! As an aside, I'm going to copy and paste the majority of this thread into a MSWord document for myself so I can retain alot of the really good information sources you've all shared just in case the moderators find reason to wipe this thread from the server.

Have a Happy Holidays

 

[gollum]

I also HIGHLY recommend reading anything by Herbert Eugene Bolton. He was a prolific writer and historian, having an obsession with Colonial Spanish History. I have several of his books. Some of them are available in .pdf form on my website for you to download and keep. One I just bought and still need to digitize is also one of the hardest to find "Spanish Exploration in the Southwest 1542-1706". It contains many of the translations of the diaries kept by the Spanish Explorers while on their expeditions.

http://1oro1.com

Just go to the Reference Section, and click on "Historical Reference Books". Then feel free to download any of his books. Also of great interest to anybody looking to learn more about the Southern Arizona Area should download and read "Report to Congress on the Mineral Resources of the United States" by J. Ross Brown written in 1867. When it comes to quoting people J. Ross Brown's Report is OFTEN quoted.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear blindbowman;
I would suggest that instead of viewing the missionaries and the missions in a negative way, perhaps you should alter your attitude slightly and try viewing them in a more positive light.
The Society of Jesus and other Holy Orders came to the New World and through their dilligent and heroic efforts, took a Christianless and heathen society and converted them into God fearing beings, with a bright and healthy future. That a few of them were lost along the way is a matter of no great conscience, as the end result is greater than the means.
I do realize that there are those in this world who want nothing more than for the natives to have been left to their own devices, but alas, conquest is not handled in this manner. The natives, some of them not wishing to have their lives bettered, did in fact resist at times, and during the course of this resistence, some blood was spilt and some lives were lost, but again, in the end they came to the fold and are today loyal and dedicated soldiers of Christ.
I beg you for your indulgence and understanding on this issue and with some deep medatation, surely you can see that the benefits are so much better than the alternatives. The continents of North, South and Central America were meant to be conquered by the peoples of Europe, my friend. Nothing remains as it was and the fact that it was a bloody and often times violent period is simply how things were. That the natives at times chose a path of rejection and resistence is not my fault, nor is the end result of their folly my fault or the fault of the Roman Catholic Church. If anyone is to be blamed, it's the natives themselves who should bear the bulk of it, as they were the ones who were resisting the gallant efforts of the missionaries.
I didn't tell them to resist and if I would have been there I most likely would have urged them to see the light and put down their weapons and to join the flock. I'd much rather live in harmony and concord with my fellow man and together, we can accomplish many great and wonderful things.
You stated:
" who gave Fr. tomas tello the right to put anyone in the stocks . who the hell did he think he was god ... your faith killed christ because you could stand any one being closer to god then your chruch ...now you come here and tell us you can kill anyone you want but you set and make up all this BS to try to confuse the facts , the women is dead by the hands of a member of your chruch not hers .."

While the womans' death is a pity, it is only an isolated incident and it cannot be construed as the wholesale slaughter of the native populace, unlike what the Aztecs were doing to their fellow natives immediately prior to the arrival of the Conquistadores. The Aztecs were slaughtering the lesser tribes wholsale and those which they did not slay in battle were then sacraficed to their heathen gods. The Conquistadores, being staid followers of Christ, were appalled by this activity and they viewed the Aztecs as little more than animals to be slain to the last man, woman and child. It was only through the intervention of the Jesuits and the marriages of the Conquistadores to the Aztec women that any of the Aztec bloodline remains today.
And just how do you know what the womans' church was? You were not there so you can make such a bold statement. Judging from the time period ,I would state there is a very good chance the woman was born a Christian and this may very well have been the cause of her ultimate demise. Perhaps she was baptized a Christian at birth, and being as such, could no longer claim ignorance. We seem to know nothing of this woman other than the fact that she was pregnant and she died. So what? Lots of pregnant women die, even today, and simply because she was placed in the stocks for a while may have had no bearing on her physical state.
The fact that the Aztecs were butchering their fellow natives like so many cattle was in no small part a key to their downfall. The tribes whom the Aztecs conquered aided the Conquistadores at once and they helped them to wipe out and destroy the once mighty and powerful Aztec nation. Within the span of a generation, the Conquistadores brought the natives to their knees and through the establishment of missions, the missionaries brought them into the fold.
Right or wrong, for better or worse, this is what happened took place and looking back with the benefit of hindsight, one may state positively that the conquest of the New World by the Spaniards was the saving grace of the native populaces of the New World. If left to their own devices, the natives may have very well butchered each other out of existence.
Your friend;
LAMAR