True Spelling

[Oroblanco]

Ed thanks buddy that is just what I needed to complete the picture! You guys are too much, I really hope I can make it to next year's rendezvous, you ALL seem to have such an excellent sense of humor! I only wish I could keep a sense of humor sometimes, especially when I MIS-read something.

Joe I have to say that I think we all lost something with the disappearance of those Burma Shave signs; I guess only Wall Drug still uses such advertising devices as the sequential message.

Oroblanco

 

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[lamar]

Dear group;
Strictly as as aside, "Si dios quieres" is never used in conversational Spanish. Instead the word "Ohjallah" (pronounced O-Hah-Lah) is used in it's place. It's a derived from the Arabic word "Inchallah", which means "If God wills it".
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[the blindbowman]

LOL if i were you Lamar i would not be wrried about what God wills ! LOL

 

[lamar]

Dear Ed T;
You brought up an interesting dilemna my friend. Just exactly how DOES a mine get *lost* anyhow? It would seem to me that if there were a mine producing a substantially high grade of ore, then a sufficent number of workers would be involved, ths how could it get lost? IMVHO it would seem to be extremely difficult to cover up a huge tunnel, would it not? Atempting to disperse the tailing piles alone would involve vast amounts of labor, possibly spanning a generation or more.

This brings up another very pointed question. If the Jesuits were in fact conducting mining operations in the New World, then who was minding the store, that is, who was doing the 1,000 other non-mining related tasks such as gardening and tending to the livestock. These things didn't take care of themselves. This is iteself was a massive undertaking and the mere gesture of keeping food on ones' table was a fulltime occupation in those times.

And how did the Jesuits manage to hide all of that extracted rock and dirt that most assuredly would have been lying about at the mouths of these mines? If one listens to the tales, then one is led to believe that massive amounts of gold was wrested from the Earth, therefore in order to add validity to these tales, then one must also add massive amounts of rock and dirt. So, what happened to all of the tailings? Did they eat them? Did they use divine intervention to get rid of them?

Everybody seems to think that one or two Jesuits, along with a handful of natives, would have been enough to make an entire country, such as Spain, wealthy beyond belief, when this in fact wasn't so. For an example of the facts, look at the fabulous silver mines of Potosi and Guanajato. Spain incorporated LEGIONS of native workers spanning HUNDREDS of years in order to properly exploit the wealth of these two mines, yet I've read reports on this forum which bespeaks of fabulous golden treasures which have been lost to time and the devious machinations of a few Jesuits.

Out of all this discussion I have yet to witness one scrap of fact that the Jesuits did in fact mine for illicit gold or silver. That's correct, there is not a SINGLE SHRED of hard evidence the Jesuits did any of the things they've been accused of doing, yet the things which they did in fact do, and are very richly documented, such as acting as interlopers between the colonists and the natives,go unrecognized. Its as if, as an online society, nobody wishes to believe the facts of the matter because these facts dispell many of accusations leveled against the jesuits, therefore they are deemed as unworthy, however they are still the facts. To be perfectly honest, these are the ONLY actual facts which anyone seems to has at their disposal.

Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

Dear Ed T;
You brought up an interesting dilemna my friend. Just exactly how DOES a mine get *lost* anyhow? It would seem to me that if there were a mine producing a substantially high grade of ore, then a sufficent number of workers would be involved, ths how could it get lost? IMVHO it would seem to be extremely difficult to cover up a huge tunnel, would it not? Atempting to disperse the tailing piles alone would involve vast amounts of labor, possibly spanning a generation or more.

This brings up another very pointed question. If the Jesuits were in fact conducting mining operations in the New World, then who was minding the store, that is, who was doing the 1,000 other non-mining related tasks such as gardening and tending to the livestock. These things didn't take care of themselves. This is iteself was a massive undertaking and the mere gesture of keeping food on ones' table was a fulltime occupation in those times.

And how did the Jesuits manage to hide all of that extracted rock and dirt that most assuredly would have been lying about at the mouths of these mines? If one listens to the tales, then one is led to believe that massive amounts of gold was wrested from the Earth, therefore in order to add validity to these tales, then one must also add massive amounts of rock and dirt. So, what happened to all of the tailings? Did they eat them? Did they use divine intervention to get rid of them?

Everybody seems to think that one or two Jesuits, along with a handful of natives, would have been enough to make an entire country, such as Spain, wealthy beyond belief, when this in fact wasn't so. For an example of the facts, look at the fabulous silver mines of Potosi and Guanajato. Spain incorporated LEGIONS of native workers spanning HUNDREDS of years in order to properly exploit the wealth of these two mines, yet I've read reports on this forum which bespeaks of fabulous golden treasures which have been lost to time and the devious machinations of a few Jesuits.

Out of all this discussion I have yet to witness one scrap of fact that the Jesuits did in fact mine for illicit gold or silver. That's correct, there is not a SINGLE SHRED of hard evidence the Jesuits did any of the things they've been accused of doing, yet the things which they did in fact do, and are very richly documented, such as acting as interlopers between the colonists and the natives,go unrecognized. Its as if, as an online society, nobody wishes to believe the facts of the matter because these facts dispell many of accusations leveled against the jesuits, therefore they are deemed as unworthy, however they are still the facts. To be perfectly honest, these are the ONLY actual facts which anyone seems to has at their disposal.

Your friend;
LAMAR

Hey Lamar,

I can answer one of your questions here. At Javelin Canyon (Due West of the current Tumacacori Mission) there is a tailings pile consisting of about 150,000 cubic feet of material. There are no known historical mines in the area (other than this being the storied location of the Virgen de Guadalupe Mine). Here is a satellite photograph of the tailings pile:

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Hello Mike,

Just our of curiosity, what makes those tailings Jesuit? How much is being made, per ton, out of those tailings?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[the blindbowman]

Dear Ed T;
You brought up an interesting dilemna my friend. Just exactly how DOES a mine get *lost* anyhow? It would seem to me that if there were a mine producing a substantially high grade of ore, then a sufficent number of workers would be involved, ths how could it get lost? IMVHO it would seem to be extremely difficult to cover up a huge tunnel, would it not? Atempting to disperse the tailing piles alone would involve vast amounts of labor, possibly spanning a generation or more.

This brings up another very pointed question. If the Jesuits were in fact conducting mining operations in the New World, then who was minding the store, that is, who was doing the 1,000 other non-mining related tasks such as gardening and tending to the livestock. These things didn't take care of themselves. This is iteself was a massive undertaking and the mere gesture of keeping food on ones' table was a fulltime occupation in those times.

And how did the Jesuits manage to hide all of that extracted rock and dirt that most assuredly would have been lying about at the mouths of these mines? If one listens to the tales, then one is led to believe that massive amounts of gold was wrested from the Earth, therefore in order to add validity to these tales, then one must also add massive amounts of rock and dirt. So, what happened to all of the tailings? Did they eat them? Did they use divine intervention to get rid of them?

Everybody seems to think that one or two Jesuits, along with a handful of natives, would have been enough to make an entire country, such as Spain, wealthy beyond belief, when this in fact wasn't so. For an example of the facts, look at the fabulous silver mines of Potosi and Guanajato. Spain incorporated LEGIONS of native workers spanning HUNDREDS of years in order to properly exploit the wealth of these two mines, yet I've read reports on this forum which bespeaks of fabulous golden treasures which have been lost to time and the devious machinations of a few Jesuits.

Out of all this discussion I have yet to witness one scrap of fact that the Jesuits did in fact mine for illicit gold or silver. That's correct, there is not a SINGLE SHRED of hard evidence the Jesuits did any of the things they've been accused of doing, yet the things which they did in fact do, and are very richly documented, such as acting as interlopers between the colonists and the natives,go unrecognized. Its as if, as an online society, nobody wishes to believe the facts of the matter because these facts dispell many of accusations leveled against the jesuits, therefore they are deemed as unworthy, however they are still the facts. To be perfectly honest, these are the ONLY actual facts which anyone seems to has at their disposal.

Your friend;
LAMAR

you may be good at many things treasure hunting is not one them , if you are so right about lost mine , then why dose the same theory you stated not applie to lost gost towns ... Da it dose , there are hunders of gost towns all over the USA if not thousands . they were at time large twons and villiages ,. yet the people vanished for one reason or nothe some of those reasons were their own .yet so were not in there control ....even today sickness can wipe out a small town in days ,... and that my friend is and out right fact ...

so your so called logic dosent hold water ...good theory just not logic to reality....i would even go as far to say it would be far more easy for a mine to be lost then many other things , just on the basic logic that in the yaers of most of those so called lost mines , there was little to protect them , no one country had a strong hold in the new world as of yet and most had all they could do to feed them self and live day to day ...

often these mines location were kept by one preson with in a small group often the oldest and wisest , but this often backfired if the preson died of sickness ,age or was killed some how ..

thus is the story of coppers falls . sickness damn near wipe the total town off the map complete .. if it had not been for historyians and treasure hunters this town past would still be a unknown loss to what did in fact take place there .the last liveing town member died of old age and sickness and his bones were found laying on what was once his bed , the house had roted away long ago and he most like had no liveing family members .. i know i was the one that found him ,his silver pocket had fallen threw the bed springs and lay un touched under the bed , with his glasses beside them , they lay there for well over 150 years ...but this dose go to explan the basic of a lost town or preson or mine for that matter ...

no need for this to change the topic , i was just pionting out your theory is not very sound in this reality . the reality of today it may hold more relaity then 200 years ago but . if you want to come back in 200 years and talk about it again i am game lol ...


ps . let me add in the case of the green hill lead mine for well over 100 years people had visited the site trying to learn as much as they could it about its past . on the wall in one old building was a large peice of paper with what loked like old maps that had roted away threw the years , one stood there looking around the room and noted that the ends of th maps were not rotted away i pulled off a peice of the top rotted map and on the back of the maps was the front of the map . i said to my self what the hell and i started removeing all the old peices of rotted away maps . as far as i could figer each time they got a new map they would turn the old map face frist to the wall to protect it ,or so it would not be confused with the new map . under about 15 layers was almost a full complete map and many of the buildering were never known to even be at the site ...the building had been build so fast they had never clamed them on the tax maps ..or the company did not want to add them ..

my piont is ....you can judge what you see . you can judge what you think or know . but you can only judge what you see and think and know .yet that dose not mean there is not more just out of sight or just beyond what you think you know ...

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
An estimated 150,000 cubic feet tailing pile is very interesting indeed, but do you know for certain that it's an actual taling pile and not a geofact. From the sat photo it looks like as if it could be actual tailings, however only by actually visiting the tail pile in question can one ascertain whether it is in fact tailings or if it's just another geofact.

To ascertain as to whether or not it's a taling pile, it's a simple matter of examining the rocks in question and looking closely for manmade tool marks on their surfaces. If the rocks in question show human activity then it becomes a simple matter of matching the rocks in question to the local geology.

After all, that tailing pile had to come from SOMEWHERE, and a smart geologist should be able to pinpoint the point of origination for that tailing pile within a few hundred square yards. If the tailins then show more than one location, it can then be assumed that the tailings were the combined efforts of more than one mine and the same geologist should be able to state with some authority how many different formations were being exploited, the locations of such and even the era in which the mining occurred. Also, it's a simple matter to discern the values simply by close and careful examination of the tailings.

Moving right along, there is a HUGE difference between being *abandoned* and being *lost*. Abandoned villages and towns were done so deliberately from an outside force acting on the township as a whole, and therefore the villagers either died off or packed up and left for better prospects somewhere else. A group of people simply will not abandon a profitable mine, even if that mine happens to be a widow maker. I should know as I have been involved in a couple of mine disaster relief efforts and as always, the mine keeps working even in the shadow of 100s or 1000s of deaths. Only a mine that has played out will be abandoned and this has always be true.

If there were a working, profitable mine high in the deserts of the northwestern part of the New World and disease wiped out the entire operation, then another group would have moved in and continued operations where the previous group left off. Trust me, they would have done this, as it's human nature to do so. There is no easy way to cover up or to hide a profitable mining venture as the tailing piles are a dead giveaway as what is, or has, taken place.

Even a fabulously wealthy vein produces huge amounts of displaced dirt and rocks and the miners would have had to have done something with all of this material as it doesn't simply dissolve into thin air.

You've stated:

you may be good at many things treasure hunting is not one them

The truth of the matter is that I am not good at believing in things which are false in nature. I will now quote Mr. Spock (Leonard Nimoy) when he stated smething like:
"If we remove all that is impossible, then whatever remains, no matter how improbable, is possible."

Actually, many seem to think that I am in fact an excellent treasure hunter as I don't waste much time chasing dreams, rumors, legends, myths, half truths, falsehoods or lies. If a statement is valid and we remove all of which is impossible from the equation, then whatever remains are the facts. Through the dilligent use of discounting all false accounts, if what remains is hard factual data then what is left behind is an actual lost or hidden treasure.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Lamar,

"A group of people simply will not abandon a profitable mine, even if that mine happens to be a widow maker."

Sorry, my friend, that is not a true statement. Many mines, ranches and even towns were abandoned by the Spanish due to Apache raids. It's well known history.

Take care,

Joe
.

 

[the blindbowman]

Dear group;
An estimated 150,000 cubic feet tailing pile is very interesting indeed, but do you know for certain that it's an actual taling pile and not a geofact. From the sat photo it looks like as if it could be actual tailings, however only by actually visiting the tail pile in question can one ascertain whether it is in fact tailings or if it's just another geofact.

To ascertain as to whether or not it's a taling pile, it's a simple matter of examining the rocks in question and looking closely for manmade tool marks on their surfaces. If the rocks in question show human activity then it becomes a simple matter of matching the rocks in question to the local geology.

After all, that tailing pile had to come from SOMEWHERE, and a smart geologist should be able to pinpoint the point of origination for that tailing pile within a few hundred square yards. If the tailins then show more than one location, it can then be assumed that the tailings were the combined efforts of more than one mine and the same geologist should be able to state with some authority how many different formations were being exploited, the locations of such and even the era in which the mining occurred. Also, it's a simple matter to discern the values simply by close and careful examination of the tailings.

Moving right along, there is a HUGE difference between being *abandoned* and being *lost*. Abandoned villages and towns were done so deliberately from an outside force acting on the township as a whole, and therefore the villagers either died off or packed up and left for better prospects somewhere else. A group of people simply will not abandon a profitable mine, even if that mine happens to be a widow maker. I should know as I have been involved in a couple of mine disaster relief efforts and as always, the mine keeps working even in the shadow of 100s or 1000s of deaths. Only a mine that has played out will be abandoned and this has always be true.

If there were a working, profitable mine high in the deserts of the northwestern part of the New World and disease wiped out the entire operation, then another group would have moved in and continued operations where the previous group left off. Trust me, they would have done this, as it's human nature to do so. There is no easy way to cover up or to hide a profitable mining venture as the tailing piles are a dead giveaway as what is, or has, taken place.

Even a fabulously wealthy vein produces huge amounts of displaced dirt and rocks and the miners would have had to have done something with all of this material as it doesn't simply dissolve into thin air.

You've stated:

you may be good at many things treasure hunting is not one them

The truth of the matter is that I am not good at believing in things which are false in nature. I will now quote Mr. Spock (Leonard Nimoy) when he stated smething like:
"If we remove all that is impossible, then whatever remains, no matter how improbable, is possible."

Actually, many seem to think that I am in fact an excellent treasure hunter as I don't waste much time chasing dreams, rumors, legends, myths, half truths, falsehoods or lies. If a statement is valid and we remove all of which is impossible from the equation, then whatever remains are the facts. Through the dilligent use of discounting all false accounts, if what remains is hard factual data then what is left behind is an actual lost or hidden treasure.
Your friend;
LAMAR

lol

Lamar : frist off this statement is bs "a smart geologist should be able to pinpoint the point of origination for that tailing pile within a few hundred square yards. " a smart geologist would lol at that statement ...you asume way to much .. if that is 100% true then tell me why a guy spend $6000 to find a lost lead mine that never was .. i can tell you just why .. when owner of the gren hill lead mine had found out the shafts he made were makeing the ground weak and they could no long pile trailings on the site they got cheap peice of land 20 miles away and ship the trailing to that site , the guy swore up and down there had to be a mine near those tailing piles tell my father showed him some of the old way bills for the mine that stated the location and where the loads came from ... i would say if you dont asume the location is near the site the pile it self should led the preson to the mine if it is in the area , and as i just stated why you dont asume it nearthe tailings , in most cases you would be right . but not in all cases .. a smart geologies is not a great histroy and would not asume anything with out eviednce to dirrectly subport it. and to think a geologiest can locate a given location of one sample in a area with hunders of miles of that type of ore is totally foolish .., and i am not saying you are foolish just the idea that he may tell you what part of a state the sample came from is far from pinpoint the point of origination...


you are smart and thats helps but that alone dose not mean you are a great treasure hunter ...there have been all kinds of treasure hunters for over 100 years looking for the LDM . even smart geologist whats that tell ya ...

if your bible has a treasure hunting guide to the supersititions then you got to tell us , i always beleived it was full of people that stated they were smart but most of the book was about wars .. so i guess they are not as smarty as they stated they were ....

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
You stated:
"Sorry, my friend, that is not a true statement. Many mines, ranches and even towns were abandoned by the Spanish due to Apache raids. It's well known history."

Whereas, I statewd previously:
"Abandoned villages and towns were done so deliberately from an outside force acting on the township as a whole, and therefore the villagers either died off or packed up and left for better prospects somewhere else. A group of people simply will not abandon a profitable mine, even if that mine happens to be a widow maker."

It would definitely seem that Apache raids would classify *an outside force* to me. Would it not seem so to you? Also, I've read of many accounts of communities being wiped out, or driven out, my native raids, however the communities which were permanently abandoned were marginally profitable at best. Without exception, the profitable communities which were wiped out or driven away returned in greater numbers than before. This is the nature of the beast called man.

A perfect example of this are two old Jesuit missions right here in Bolivia. One mission, close to where the Sacambaya and Ingavi rivers meet, was attacked by natives and abandoned. This mission did not have natural resources in any large number, therefore no effort was expended rebuilding it. One the other hand, the mission at San Ramon was razed to the ground, not once, but FOUR TIMES! After each attack, the Jesuits returned in ever greater numbers, as the surrounding countryside was rich in natural resources and the returns outweighed the risks to the settlers in the region. This is how settlers have always thought and this is how they think to this day.

There are MANY abandoned mines, communities, etc, and with each one there is ALWAYS a very good reason why it was abandoned in the first place. Because it stopped being profitable or it was only marginally profitable. And THIS is well known history, not only in the New World, but throughout the history of mankind.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[the blindbowman]

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WikiAnswers — The Q&A community. Ask a question, answer a question or just browse. Today's Highlights December 17, 2007

The Aztec Sun Stone

Source
Spotlight: On this date in 1790, in the course of making repairs on a cathedral in Mexico City, workmen uncovered the Aztec Sun Stone. The stone had been buried 250 years earlier, when the Spaniards conquered Tenochtitlan. About 12 ft/3.6 m in diameter, and weighing some 24 metric tons, the stone was carved over a period of about 50 years during the fifteenth century. The images carved into the stone represent days, months and years as measured by the Aztecs. Today, it is housed in Mexico City's National Museum of Anthropology.

Quote: "Everything that is really Mexican is either Aztec or Spanish." — Edward Burnett Tylor

 

[lamar]

Dear Ed T;
Ojallah means "As God wills it". The orginal word is from the Arabic word "Inchallah" which means "As Allah wills it". This word was brought by the Moors from across the Strait of Gibralter into Spain with the Moorish invaders in the 10th centurty, where they remained until being expelled from their last stronghold in Cordoba by El Cid in the 14th century. The word still means, literally, "As God wills it". I thought that everybody knew this.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: True Spelling (VERY long reply)

Greetings Lamar and everyone,

This is yet another extremely LONG post, so I beg your indulgence and patience.

Lamar wrote:

Just exactly how DOES a mine get *lost* anyhow?

A fair question, often we get this from those who simply don’t believe that any such thing as lost mines or lost treasures exist. A great number of those that are today “lost” are due to attacks by hostile Amerindians, especially Apaches, Yaquis and Seris in the southwest. (Here in SD the ‘hostiles’ were Souix and Cheyennes, but the effect is the same.) Most of the mines of the early days were NOT big operations such as we are accustomed to see today, but really quite small – the tunnels and shafts being just large enough to get in and out. There are mines like this today in some places, often run as a “Mom and Pop” operation – and small operations were very tempting targets for war parties of hostile Amerindians. A surprise attack could easily kill all of the owners/workers at such a small operation in a matter of moments. The Amerindians have often also taken steps to erase or at least conceal the mine, so as to avoid attracting any more ‘European’ intruders. (Using the term ‘Europeans' here also includes Anglos and Mexicans, not specifically Europeans) Then consider the other ways in which mines were lost. For in the early days, prospectors did not have the excellent maps we use today and take for granted, often enough they did not even carry a compass; the whole of the west had hardly an oxcart track for roads, so a prospector or party of miners could find a good mineral deposit and then be unable to re-locate the site! Remember too that they had to keep one eye always watching for the danger of hostile Indios, robbers, claim-jumpers etc and one begins to understand how so many mineral discoveries were soon “lost”. The description of Sonora (Rudo Ensayo) written by the Jesuit father Nentvig lists no less than 48 de-populated mining sites, of which several included more than a single mine! A good number of these sites are LOST today! He correctly concluded this wholesale abandonment of so many mining camps and ranches was due to the un-remitting Apache attacks. Later, the war between Mexico and the USA also resulted in a number of mines and ranches being abandoned. The loss of good mineral deposits continues right up almost to our own time, I know of one case that took place in Death Valley in the late 1940’s; I won’t bore you with the whole story but sum it up – an experienced prospector, working with a newbie, after explaining to him how to mark each site where any interesting ore was sampled so as to be able to return after crushing and panning proved it could be valuable, proceeded to find a ledge of quartz that proved to be quite rich. He had however forgotten to take the simple step of marking the site with a ribbon of cloth, as he had instructed his ‘newbie’ partner and the men were unable to find the ledge again despite an exhaustive search. Actually I find it remarkable how many mines were NOT lost, considering the ferocity of the warfare with the Apaches and the many years the wars raged.

(Example passage from Nentvig:

In the vicinity of Oputo there are many silver mines which are abandoned because of the many outrages committed by the Apaches, such as what happened at Nori, three leagues north of Oputo, and at San Juan del Río, nine leagues beyond in the same direction.

Then consider how landmarks can change, the result of a single flash-flood, or a land-slide; I have seen one “lost” ancient Spanish mine (Jesuit, if you will) which is not difficult to find, but the two mine tunnels are utterly collapsed. If not for the tailings piles, a person might very easily not notice the depressions where the tunnels used to be. Once a mine is no longer being actively maintained, it is only a matter of time before shrubbery and brush grow up around the mine, erosion washes away the camp sites and trails that might have served to help find the mine, even such large “clues” as tailings piles become more and more ‘invisible’ due to the growth of plants, dust settles in on piles of rock etc.

I would also point out that a fair number of “lost” mines have in fact been found again and are not lost today, we have mentioned our mutual friend Real de Tayopa, but also the famous lost Breyfogle, Goler’s gold, even long-lost mines of the Egyptians have been recently re-discovered in the Sinai peninsula. In the case of Tayopa, there is little doubt that our friend has the original, but there are several of the associated mines that remain un-discovered.

Lamar also wrote:

Out of all this discussion I have yet to witness one scrap of fact that the Jesuits did in fact mine for illicit gold or silver. That's correct, there is not a SINGLE SHRED of hard evidence the Jesuits did any of the things they've been accused of doing, yet the things which they did in fact do, and are very richly documented, such as acting as interlopers between the colonists and the natives,go unrecognized.

Well my friend it seems that you are either ignoring or dismissing every thing that has been posted thus far. Have you read the earlier replies? One can only conclude that you refuse to see what you do not wish to see. Do we really want to examine the various things which the Jesuits have been accused of over the centuries, and the evidence against them? I don’t think it would be helpful in any way, for some will never believe anything that could be viewed as “negative” while others will then see ONLY the negatives.

Let me ask you a few direct questions:

1; Are you making the claim that NO JESUITS EVER DID ANY MINING IN THE NEW WORLD?

2; Are you saying that NO JESUITS EVER DID ANYTHING ILLEGAL OR IMMORAL IN THE NEW WORLD?

3; Are you saying that NO JESUITS EVER HAD POSSESSION OF ANY KIND OF TREASURE, such as a strongbox with the money for payroll for soldiers, or the collected alms or profits?

4; Are you saying that NO JESUITS EVER MADE USE OF INDIANS FOR LABOR?

5; Are you saying that NO JESUITS EVER HAD SLAVES?

I would point out, before you answer my questions (if you choose to) that those missions, which the Jesuits founded, as well as those founded by other Orders including but not limited to the Franciscans, are not being depicted entirely accurately. For example, when we read of good father Kino founding a mission church at some Amerindian village, we often ignore the fact that a MILITARY escort was accompanying him; when we read of how the good fathers were teaching European methods of agriculture, and teaching the children of the Amerindians, we often forget that the Amerindians were NOT FREE TO LEAVE. They often did abandon the villages, especially after the introduction of European diseases led to massive epidemics and deaths, but legally they were NOT free to do so, and the missionaries did have the Spanish soldiers and allied Amerindians go and round up Amerindians to bring them to the missions on several occasions. I would also remind you that this point is well proven, for the Mexican authorities had to issue several proclamations freeing the Amerindians from having to live at the missions.

A last point is in order here - Lamar you seem to be interpreting that we are claiming that the Jesuits had huge illegal mining operations going on, which is not the claim at all - these were SMALL operations (with a couple of probable exceptions) in virtually every case, NOT big operations. In fact the great majority of colonial Spanish mining operations were quite small by today's standards, or even by 19th century standards. These were not anything like Potosi, though in the case of Tayopa I would venture to say that it was well on the way to becoming a second Potosi when they were attacked and massacred. Here is a view inside an ancient Spanish mine (definitely NOT a Jesuit mine):

You will note that the ceiling is blackened from the use of torches and candles for light, and that NO timber shoring was used whatsoever, the only shoring/reinforcement they bothered to do was stacking up the larger rocks to brace the side walls. As you can see, the blackened coating is slowly falling off over the centuries, exposing the lighter-colored earth beneath. The entrance to this mine in particular is less than six feet tall and three feet wide, just big enough for a man and burro (to pull the sled) to get in and out; brush conceals the entrance to this mine completely.

Ed - I think you might be wise to consider putting off your trip for a while, seems that things keep happening to keep you from going - but I could be completely wrong and superstitious.

Good luck and good hunting to you Lamar and everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Dear group;
An estimated 150,000 cubic feet tailing pile is very interesting indeed, but do you know for certain that it's an actual tailing pile and not a geofact. From the sat photo it looks like as if it could be actual tailings, however only by actually visiting the tail pile in question can one ascertain whether it is in fact tailings or if it's just another geofact.

To ascertain as to whether or not it's a taling pile, it's a simple matter of examining the rocks in question and looking closely for manmade tool marks on their surfaces. If the rocks in question show human activity then it becomes a simple matter of matching the rocks in question to the local geology.

After all, that tailing pile had to come from SOMEWHERE, and a smart geologist should be able to pinpoint the point of origination for that tailing pile within a few hundred square yards. If the tailins then show more than one location, it can then be assumed that the tailings were the combined efforts of more than one mine and the same geologist should be able to state with some authority how many different formations were being exploited, the locations of such and even the era in which the mining occurred. Also, it's a simple matter to discern the values simply by close and careful examination of the tailings.

Moving right along, there is a HUGE difference between being *abandoned* and being *lost*. Abandoned villages and towns were done so deliberately from an outside force acting on the township as a whole, and therefore the villagers either died off or packed up and left for better prospects somewhere else. A group of people simply will not abandon a profitable mine, even if that mine happens to be a widow maker. I should know as I have been involved in a couple of mine disaster relief efforts and as always, the mine keeps working even in the shadow of 100s or 1000s of deaths. Only a mine that has played out will be abandoned and this has always be true.

If there were a working, profitable mine high in the deserts of the northwestern part of the New World and disease wiped out the entire operation, then another group would have moved in and continued operations where the previous group left off. Trust me, they would have done this, as it's human nature to do so. There is no easy way to cover up or to hide a profitable mining venture as the tailing piles are a dead giveaway as what is, or has, taken place.

Even a fabulously wealthy vein produces huge amounts of displaced dirt and rocks and the miners would have had to have done something with all of this material as it doesn't simply dissolve into thin air.

You've stated:

you may be good at many things treasure hunting is not one them

The truth of the matter is that I am not good at believing in things which are false in nature. I will now quote Mr. Spock (Leonard Nimoy) when he stated smething like:
"If we remove all that is impossible, then whatever remains, no matter how improbable, is possible."

Actually, many seem to think that I am in fact an excellent treasure hunter as I don't waste much time chasing dreams, rumors, legends, myths, half truths, falsehoods or lies. If a statement is valid and we remove all of which is impossible from the equation, then whatever remains are the facts. Through the dilligent use of discounting all false accounts, if what remains is hard factual data then what is left behind is an actual lost or hidden treasure.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Hey Lamar,

Yes, it is an actual tailings pile. I recommend you get a book called "Enigma at Tumacacori" by a gentleman named Gary Don Oliver. While I disagree with some of his assertions, very few people know more about the area than he does. He has held the claim on this site since 1986, and has been exploring the area since about 1978. He works it as he can because he lives in Oregon. I have corresponded with him for a few years, and have found him to be a wealth of knowledge (and none of it kooky). You can usually find one or two copies of the book on EBAY. The seller is garydon3 (and yes, the seller is the author. The book has been out of print for quite a while, and he just sells off what he has left).

Not only is that a tailings pile, but he has found a few backfilled shafts. I am fairly certain he is either right on or near the mark.

Cactus Jumper,

There is nothing in and of itself that identifies this as a "JESUIT" Tailings Pile, but you need to step back and look at the larger picture. Whatever mine those 150,000 feet of tailings came from must have been VERY extensive. Only problem is.....there are NO RECORDED MINES IN THIS AREA....EVER! As far back as Colonial Spanish times, there are no recorded mines in the area of Javelin Canyon. From what I have learned about mining, I would think that a mine massive enough to generate 150,000 feet of tailings would have to have been declared and listed somewhere (if it were a legitimate mining operation).

If it were operated by Spanish Civilians, a mine that size would have been mentioned in the annals of the Tumacacori Mission (it lies just 1.5 miles due West of the Mission Site), or in the Travel Journals of Padre Kino or Capt. Manje. No such descriptions exist (I have Kino's translated Journals). If it were a more recent mine, it would have to have been recorded with the Bureau of Mines. It is not.

So....what we have are 150,000 feet of mine tailings, with no recorded associated mine. Seems to me, the only way for a mine that size to have been kept a secret, would have been for the Jesuit Padres of Tumacacori to have had some association with the mine (hence the need to keep it a secret, as any Jesuit Mining Activities were strictly forbidden).

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote:

if it were a legitimate mining operation).

Precisely mi amigo, this one is (almost) the "smoking gun" as it is almost certainly NOT a legitimate mining operation. With such a clear evidence of some past, illegal mining operation, we next have to wonder just who (or whom) might have been running it? So, now who (or whom) has ever been accused of running ILLEGAL mining operations there, hmm?

Also, not to diminish the size of the Javelina Canyon tailings pile, but compared to modern mines or even those of the late 19th century, 150,000 cubic feet of tailings is not that big; it amounts to some 5556 cubic yards, and in mining the rock actually expands from what it was when compact. A general rule of thumb is 1.25:1 expansion rate, so this amount of tailings would represent something around 4500 cubic yards of rock in situ. Still sounds like a LOT right? Excavating a tunnel six feet square, which is not a large tunnel but corresponds to the size of many 18th century mines, for each three feet of tunnel (or shaft) excavated means removing four cubic yards of rock. So we are talking about a bit more than 1100 yards of relatively small tunnel. Here is a comparison, a report of an American mine

The McCracken Company own two mining claims of fifteen hundred feet each in length, named the Senator and Alta. The mine is now the best developed in the Territory, having over seven hundred feet of shafting, and over twelve hundred feet of tunnels.(NOTE This mine was discovered August 17, 1874, by Messrs. McCracken and Owen, who yet own a large interest in the mine.)

{ARIZONA AS IT IS; OR, THE COMING COUNTRY. COMPILED FROM NOTES OF TRAVEL DURING THE YEARS 1874, 1875, AND 1876.BY HIRAM C. HODGE. NEW YORK:PUBLISHED BY HURD AND HOUGHTON. BOSTON: H. O. HOUGHTON AND COMPANY.Cambrige: The Riverside Press.1877. }



This mine would have nearly the amount of tailings found in Javelina Canyon, and is early in the days of American mining exploitation having only been developed for less than two years.

Oroblanco

Postscript, another little extract:

Near the western end of this river and a short distance from the north bank there is an abundant hot water spring17 where, according to a corporal in Father Sedelmayr's escort during the father's entry into the land of the Yumas in 1748, an Indian gave the missionary nuggets of pure silver as large as acorns, and when asked where they were found, the native pointed to a hill not far from Tumac, the last hamlet of the tribe.

(Above extracted from Rudo Ensayo, A Description of Sonora 1764 by father Juan Nentvig, SJ)

Now are we to suppose that our missionary Father Sedelmayr was utterly un-interested in such things as SILVER, so that he should strangely bother to inquire from the Indio just where he had found the silver nuggets? Yes I agree, this is more "circumstantial" evidence, but really how can we conclude that NO Jesuit EVER indulged in ANY mining whatsoever, when such a resource would have been quite helpful and beneficial to the finances of his mission? It strains the imagination to propose that our hardworking and pious Fathers should have utterly ignored such mineral deposits, especially when an important part of their own "mission" is to search out the various resources of their new missions with an eye to developing an economy.

I do not understand why the idea of Jesuit missionaries working mines in their districts is in some way a "blot" or "stain" upon their collective honor, when it seems that what mining was done, was in a quite small scale and NOT in a way to amass huge personal fortunes, and remember that Indios NOT on their missions were frequently and literally enslaved by Spanish colonists who WERE trying to amass personal fortunes, regardless of the cost to the Indios.

Lamar, I would also like to ask you a sixth question: have you ever heard of a silver mine known as the Salero in Pimeria Alta? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear oroblanco;
I shall attempt to reply to your questions in the order which they were posted:
1; Are you making the claim that NO JESUITS EVER DID ANY MINING IN THE NEW WORLD?
There is no hard evidence as yet discovered that the Jesuits ever mined for gold, silver, or precious stones in the New World. There is also no supporting evidence that the Jesuits were illegally administering to any such activities.

2; Are you saying that NO JESUITS EVER DID ANYTHING ILLEGAL OR IMMORAL IN THE NEW WORLD?
Again, there is no factual evidence which has yet come to light in support of this question. I will not take part in any such discussion as "There were humans, so surely some of them must have done something illegal or immoral." I will not condemn a whole on the assumed activities of a few, so please do not ask me to.

3; Are you saying that NO JESUITS EVER HAD POSSESSION OF ANY KIND OF TREASURE, such as a strongbox with the money for payroll for soldiers, or the collected alms or profits?
Missions were, among things, villages and outposts, run by Monastetic organizations instead of civil ones, therefore it would be safe to assume that yes, valuables were often stored at missions for short to long periods of time, in much the same way that they would be stored anywhere else.

4; Are you saying that NO JESUITS EVER MADE USE OF INDIANS FOR LABOR?
No, not at all, the local natives were always employed as professionals, craftsmen, tradesmen and laborers, right up till today. Roman Catholic doctrine states there are two pathways to Heaven, through prayer and labor, therefore it is only correct to utilize the local workforce to perform laborous tasks.

5; Are you saying that NO JESUITS EVER HAD SLAVES?
Again, until there is definitve proof to the contrary, I will state that no, as an ordained Holy Order of the Roman Catholic Church, Jesuits did not possess slaves. As an expelled Order, well, that very well may be a different story.

6; Lamar, I would also like to ask you a sixth question: have you ever heard of a silver mine known as the Salero in Pimeria Alta?
Yes, I've heard tales of the Salero. As far as I am able to recall, the original Salero mine was more of a hugely rich deposit rather than an actual mine though. It seems to have been reported that someone stumbled across a silver deposit that was more than 5 varas in width and 2 varas in height. That's some 30 feet wide and about 6 feet high! It also seems that the deposit wasn't worked extensively, perhaps a few yards is all, owing to the immense proportions of thenow legendary deposit. The modern site of the Salero mine is often stated to be in a different place than the legenday Salero mine and it is surmised that the mine which was rediscovered by George Clark in the mid 1800s is not the original Salero at all, rather it's the site of another, as yet unknown and unrecorded mine. So, there are some whom feel that the original Salero mine may as yet remain undiscovered.

And to refute your statement that the Amerindians were not *free*, of course they weren't free! They were in fact subjects of the Crown of Spain, and in that regard, no Spanish subject was *free* to wander about at will. It was the same document which made them Royal subjects that also kept them from being inducted into slavery. So, while being a Spanish subject was bad, being protected from slavery, at least at the Crown level, was good. One must always bear in mind that the politics of the day were vastly different than now and as such, nobody was truly free in the sense of the word that we know it.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[the blindbowman]

Dear group;
What did I do to the Indians? Nothing, as far as I recall. And let me see if I understand things. It's perfectly OK for one tribe of Indians to slaughter their brethen by the bushbasketfuls, but it's not OK for European to do the very same thing? Where is the division at? To me, death is death and murder is murder. What about the murders which the Indians commited? On whose crosses does the blood of their victims stain? Also, the Roman Catholic Church is a living, breathing entity and It is comprised of It's living members and not in It's ancient history. The faults and mistakes commited by members of the Roman Catholic Church in the past cannot be used to extract vengence on the present Church.
BTW, before you hit the POST button, could you please glance to your right and hit the SPELL CHECK button first? This would greatly aid me in deciphering your writings, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

you may need spell check your self brethen is spelled (brethren)....LOL

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Lamar, Blindbowman and everyone,

Oroblanco wrote 1; Are you making the claim that NO JESUITS EVER DID ANY MINING IN THE NEW WORLD?
Lamar replied:
There is no hard evidence as yet discovered that the Jesuits ever mined for gold, silver, or precious stones in the New World. There is also no supporting evidence that the Jesuits were illegally administering to any such activities.

Let me point up this extract:

. Ecclesiastically all reales de minas were administered by diocesan ministers. Occasionally, and by request of the priest, members of the Jesuit order performed the rites, turning over the revenues or tithes to the diocesan minister. About 1664 the twenty-fifth vice-roy of New Spain, Antonio Alvaro Sebastian de Toledo, Marquis of Mancera, decreed that reales de minas must be administered by the regular or secular priests. This meant that Jesuits in Sonora could not attend to them except by request as stated above.

(from Rudo Ensayo, Nentvig)

It seems that perhaps you have not researched the matter of Jesuits and mining activities specifically in Sonora/Pimeria Alta during the colonial period or you would have known that occasionally the reales de minas were administered by Jesuits, and that after 1664 it was illegal for them to do so unless requested by the authorities.

Oroblanco wrote 2; Are you saying that NO JESUITS EVER DID ANYTHING ILLEGAL OR IMMORAL IN THE NEW WORLD?

Lamar replied:
Again, there is no factual evidence which has yet come to light in support of this question. I will not take part in any such discussion as "There were humans, so surely some of them must have done something illegal or immoral." I will not condemn a whole on the assumed activities of a few, so please do not ask me to.

I do not ask you to condemn the whole of the Society of Jesus, but there is factual evidence of wrongdoing by INDIVIDUAL members of the Society. While in a legal court, innocence is always presumed until proven gullty beyond a reasonable doubt, in civil court the decision is made on a simple preponderance of evidence, that being whether something is more likely than not. As we are not in a legal court but are presenting our arguments to "public opinion" this amounts to nothing more than a civil court proceeding, so are not held to the standard that ALL of the members of the Society of Jesus MUST be utterly innocent, nor must we prove beyond all doubt that SOME INDIVIDUALS mis-behaved. What evidence there is, suggests that only individuals mis-behaved, NOT the whole of the order.

Oroblanco wrote:3; Are you saying that NO JESUITS EVER HAD POSSESSION OF ANY KIND OF TREASURE, such as a strongbox with the money for payroll for soldiers, or the collected alms or profits?

Lamar replied:
Missions were, among things, villages and outposts, run by Monastetic organizations instead of civil ones, therefore it would be safe to assume that yes, valuables were often stored at missions for short to long periods of time, in much the same way that they would be stored anywhere else.

Then can you imagine, how a story of Jesuits concealing a "treasure" could have been born, without the Jesuit actually being "guilty" of even owning the treasure? I have presented this scenario before, that it could have been the Jesuit taking precautions to protect a strongbox that actually belonged to the military or civil authorities from imminent danger presented by Apaches, Seris, rebelling Pimas or even robbers; how would an Amerindian view his actions? Would the Indian KNOW that the strongbox doesn't even belong to the Jesuit?

Oroblanco wrote:5; Are you saying that NO JESUITS EVER HAD SLAVES?

Lamar replied:
Again, until there is definitve proof to the contrary, I will state that no, as an ordained Holy Order of the Roman Catholic Church, Jesuits did not possess slaves. As an expelled Order, well, that very well may be a different story.

Then you deny the whole of the evidence at Georgetown University, a Jesuit college, as well as other recorded instances such as at New Orleans, when the Jesuits were being expelled the Jesuit father was found to have possession of nearly 130 slaves? This was the case at the MOMENT OF ARREST, and NOT during the period when the Society of Jesus had already been expelled. I might also remind you of this little extract:

It was at Mátape that the first Negro slaves were brought into the Sonora province in 1672–73 by Daniel Angelo Marras, S.J.

(note from Rudo Ensayo, author Nentvig of S.J.)

The Jesuit plantations in Maryland were one of the largest slaveholders in Maryland and also one of the most prodigious sellers of slaves in Maryland. You do not have to believe it, it is a matter of historical record that the Jesuit college Georgetown University admits to freely. Remember, owning slaves was NOT illegal at the time, and the French authorities attested to the kind treatment given to the slaves owned by the Jesuits of colonial Louisiana territory.

Oroblanco wrote: 6; Lamar, I would also like to ask you a sixth question: have you ever heard of a silver mine known as the Salero in Pimeria Alta?

Lamar replied:
Yes, I've heard tales of the Salero. As far as I am able to recall, the original Salero mine was more of a hugely rich deposit rather than an actual mine though. It seems to have been reported that someone stumbled across a silver deposit that was more than 5 varas in width and 2 varas in height. That's some 30 feet wide and about 6 feet high! It also seems that the deposit wasn't worked extensively, perhaps a few yards is all, owing to the immense proportions of thenow legendary deposit. The modern site of the Salero mine is often stated to be in a different place than the legenday Salero mine and it is surmised that the mine which was rediscovered by George Clark in the mid 1800s is not the original Salero at all, rather it's the site of another, as yet unknown and unrecorded mine. So, there are some whom feel that the original Salero mine may as yet remain undiscovered.

Are you aware of how this silver mine came to be named Salero, and whom is credited with first discovering it and working it? (I can add that this mine was re-discovered by Franciscan padres and worked for several years by them, about 1830)

Do you know whom is credited with first discovering and working the Canada del Oro gold placers near Tucson?

Do you know whom is credited with first discovering and working the "Old Padres" silver mine in what is today Arizona?

Our modern view of the Jesuit missionaries does not include many details, nor any explanation of how these details were likely viewed by the Amerindians living at the missions. For instance, if the Amerindians left the mission, on many occasions the Jesuits had the Spanish military and allied Amerindian auxilliary military forces go out and round up the fugitives and return them to the missions. The Amerindians were supposed to work three days out of the week for the mission, and the Jesuit missionaries frequently complained about the Indians not showing up to work until noon, only working half-heartedly, quitting early at three or four PM etc. In some cases the recalcitrant supposedly "lazy" Amerindians were punished by whipping. The whipping was not usually done by the Jesuit padres but by either Spanish soldiers or Amerindian allies who held civil authority, at the command of the Jesuit padres. Let me illustrate this with another extract, quoting a Seri rebel:

Father Perera invited Chepillo, their chief, to a private conference, and when the brave Seri chieftain came to Aconchi at night, they had a heart-to-heart talk. When Father Perera asked him to submit to the demands of the governor, Chepillo said, “I know that if we continue fighting we are damning ourselves, but there is no other way. We are accustomed to living with women. We do not know where our wives are, whether they are living or dead. You would not marry us to others, and if we take others, you will order us whipped.:

(Above extracted from Rudo Ensayo, A Description of Sonora 1764 by father Juan Nentvig, SJ)

Corporal punishment was nothing unusual in European nations, but to the Amerindians it likely did not appear in the same light as it did to the Jesuits or the Spaniards. In one extreme case, a pregnant Pima woman was punished by a Jesuit padre (Tello at Caborca) who had her locked in stocks and kept there until she died. This was one of the key incidents that led to the Pima revolt of 1751.

The Pima Revolt was unusual, perhaps, in that the rebels enjoyed initial success. They actually did kill or eject all non-Indians from their territory. The evils of missionization from the Northern Piman point of view were incarnate in the Jesuit missionaries Tomás Tello at Caborca, Henry Ruhen at Sonoita, Joseph Garrucho at Guebavi, and above all Ygnacio Xavier Keller at Santa María Suamca. [page 11]

From a Christian point of view, Tello and Ruhen were martyred by apostate Indians.60 In the eyes of Northern Pimans, just revenge was wrought on these two Jesuits. Neophytes exacted vengeance for their mistreatment of relatives such as a pregnant woman locked in the stocks at Caborca.61 Garrucho and Keller escaped death, but transferring Keller out of the area was one of the Northern Piman conditions for restoring peace with Spain

Henry F. Dobyns. Spanish Colonial Tucson, A Demographic History.
The University of Arizona Press Tucson, Arizona.

Father Tello, missionary at Caborca is one of the INDIVIDUALS that I point to as having illegal or immoral activities. Lamar, do you take the position of defending the actions of Father Tomas Tello, in punishing a pregnant Indian women by keeping her in stocks until she died? Do you see this as NOT maltreatment or misbehavior on the part of Father Tello? What about the flogging of Governor Joseph by Father Garrucho SJ? How about the lancing of prisoners in the so-called 'Squash Squabble'? What about Father Garrucho (SJ) having had several Pimas arrested for "trespass" upon "his" Tubac farm? These actions surely do not reflect the work of the WHOLE of the Society of Jesus, but rather the mis-behavior on the part of INDIVIDUALS who happened to belond to the Jesuit Society.

Let us NOT condemn the whole of the Society of Jesus by any means, however let us not blind ourselves to the point that we fail to see INDIVIDUAL misbehavior, or we are indeed condemned to repeat the error of the past.

Blindbowman, I realize that you are perhaps offended by what appears to be some attempt to paint the Jesuits as wholly altruistic, with no misbehavior or illegal activities ever being done etc but you don't believe that ALL the Jesuit padres were equally bad do you? The Jesuit padres surely brought many benefits to the Amerindians, though perhaps not always viewed as benefits by the Amerindians. Just imagine how the history of Arizona (and the southwest really) would have proceeded, had the Jesuits not prevented the wholesale enslavement and slaughter by Spanish conquistadores; and by this I mean literally enslavement, not simply being forced to work a few days a week (and largely for their own benefit, in providing food supplies for the village) but being rounded up and SOLD to slave dealers for export to plantations where the slaves often had very miserable and brief lives.

Good luck and good hunting to you Lamar, Blindbowman and everyone; I hope that you find the treasures that you seek.
your friend,
Oroblanco

Postscript: another question for you Lamar; do you know who/whom is credited with first discovering and developing the famous Tayopa?

 

[Oroblanco]

Tayopa In 1909, Henry O. Flipper, still searching for Tayopa, was living in Ocampo, when a surprising activity was noted in the area; ‘Many Jesuits came into the Sierra Madre, taking charge of churches that had for generations been abandoned and even establishing themselves where there were no churches. In one little Indian village without a church there were four Jesuit priests. The mountain natives thought theses Jesuits were after Tayopa and other lost mines or hidden treasure. Whatever they were after, the Revolution of 1910 prevented their accomplishing anything.’

Why should Jesuits have been searching for Tayopa and "other lost mines or hidden treasures" if they never had any ownership to claim them?

Sign me "puzzled"