True Spelling

[Oroblanco]

Greetings Lamar and everyone,

Lamar wrote:

Royal Vicar-General of the Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of St. Ignacio of Tayopa, and Jesuit of the Great Faculty of Sonora and Biscalla, whom may God keep long years.

Now we have a title and it is pretty impressive, to say the least. There is only one small problem with it. The Jesuits have never used the name of their patron saint, St. Ignacio for any other place than where he was born, Loyola. His full title is St. Ignacio of Loyola and nothing else. His name is not associated with any other place name, such as Sta. Maria Virgen de Guadalupe. If one were to look closely, then one would see the letter Y between the names Villegas and Orosco. These names were never linked with the Y (It means AND in Spanish) and they were instead linked with either a plain dash as Villagas-Orosco, or else they were simply spelt as Villagas Orosco.

Next, continuing to look at the *title* we see that the Jesuits where granted a title and a very regal sounding one at that! Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of St. Ignacio of Tayopa, and Jesuit of the Great Faculty of Sonora and Biscalla
Unfortunate as it may seem, the Jesuits have always been known simply as the Society of Jesus, and in fact that is all they can be known as, for they have no royal affliations. The *Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of St. Ignacio of Tayopa* sounds like a fraternal organization, the Moose Lodge or something.

I respectfully beg to differ with you on this point my friend Lamar, having examined a number of Jesuit-authored documents, it was NOT the practice or habit of ONLY signing simply as the “Society of Jesus” and that they often enough DID have royal affiliations. Here are a few examples, which you can examine yourself (online) through the Mission2000 project:

On [October] 20 [1704] they buried Theresa. She was married [and}
from Toaqui Xona.
Agustín de Campos, IHS
Doctrinal Minister for His Majesty

On April 20, 1710 I solemnly baptized Salvador Cacabituoti, a single adult native of Xonoitac in the Pimería. His godfather was Salvador Jerman.
With ministerial licence
Agustín de Campos HIS
Year of 1759

On the fifth of February, Francisco, foreman of the ox drivers, died in Sonoitac and was buried in the new church.
IHS Francisco Pauer, Doctrinal Minister for His Majesty


“On April 20, [1756], I solemnly baptized María Teresa, small child of Joseph Gutiuto and María. Her godmother was Ana Piahoacam”= Ihs. Francisco Pauer, Minister for His Majesty

Godparents were the magistrates and children of this village, and having completed their Holy Sacraments, I then married them in church ceremony before the same magistrates and children of this village of Guevavi, and before me.”
IHS Francisco Pauer
Minister of Doctrine for His Majesty

or which reason I add this certification to the petition3 of the said Lord Captain in all the solemnity that must follow its faithful presentation. In Ures, on the thirteenth of May in the year 1761.
Phelipe Segesser, Jesuit Minister
of Doctrine for His Majesty

This is a mere HANDFUL of examples of the various styles of signing documents, but I think we can dispense with the idea that the Jesuit fathers only signed their documents simply as “Society of Jesus” though I have to admit, on many death certificates, they simply signed “I.H.S” before or after their signature, and a few “S.J.”

I am not aware of any Jesuit documents signed with “right reverend” but this odd title does NOT, in my opinion, automatically mean it is fraudulent; it IS a ‘red flag’ that the document requires more investigation/research before putting trust and faith into it’s authenticity, but that unusual wording is not, on its own, absolute evidence of fraud. Considering the time period it was allegedly created, and the location, it would not be surprising to find very unusual titles/signatures to what we find a century later and a hundred miles north.

Good luck and good hunting to you Lamar and everyone, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.

Your friend,
Oroblanco

PS Dang it now I have to go and look to see if I can find any Jesuit documents that were ever signed "right reverend" or "friar", "fray" etc. Oh well, they ARE neat and interesting tidbits of history.

 

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[Oroblanco]

Postscript,

I have not found any reference which shows a Jesuit priest signing "Right Reverend" but have found something quite similar, and might be the source of our disputed document if one considers the manifold possibilities for error in translations between languages. Anyway here are a few more examples of Jesuit styles of address and signature:

Witnesses were Father Salvador Ignacio de la Peña, Lord Bachilor Don José Manuel Diaz del Carpio, and the Lord High Mayor Don Buenaventura de Llenes: performed by permission of the Lord Priest Don Joaquin Feliz Dias ~ in my presence ~ the Jesuit Carlos de Roxas, Minister of Doctrine for His Majesty

The Reverend Arthur E. Jones, S.J.

Sent from Port Royal, in New France, to

Sieur de la Tronchaie, dated

June 28, 1610.

PARIS,

JEAN REGNOUL, Rue du Foin,
near Saint Ives.
1610.

With permission
[page 119]

[3] A Letter Missive in regard to the Conversion

and Baptism of the Grand Sagamore of new

France, who was, before the arrival of

the French, its chief and sovereign.

Sir and Brother, I did not wish the ship to depart without giving you some news of this country which I believe will be acceptable, as I know that you are a good Catholic. The Grand Sagamore, whom we call in our language Grand Captain of the Savages, and chief of all, was baptized on last saint John the Baptist's day, [4] with his wife, children, and children's children, to the number of twenty; with as much enthusiasm, fervor, and zeal for Religion as would have been evinced by a person who had been instructed in it for three or four years. He promises to have the others baptized, or else make war upon them. Monsieur de Poutrincourt and his son acted as sponsors for them in the name of the King, and of Monseigneur the Dauphin. We have already made this good beginning, which I believe will become still better hereafter. As to the country, I have never seen anything so beautiful, better, or more fertile; and I can say to you, truly and honestly, that if I had three or four Laborers with me now, and [5] the means of supporting them for one year, and some wheat to sow in the ground tilled by their labor alone, I should expect to have a yearly trade in Beaver and other Skins amounting to seven or eight thousand livres, with the [page 131] surplus which would remain to me after their support. am very sorry that did not know before my departure what know now; if had, should have left no stone unturned to bring with me two or three farmers, and two hogsheads of wheat, which is a mere trifle. assure you it is delightful to engage in trade over here and to make such handsome profits. If you wish to take a hand in it, let me know your intentions by the bearer, who desires to return and traffic here in pursuance of what he has seen. [6] shall say no more, except to pray God to give you, Sir and Brother, a long life and perfect health. From Port Royal, New France, this 28th of, June, 1610.

Your very affectlonate Brother and servant,

BERTRAND.
SOURCE: Reprinted from Première Mission des Jésuites

au Canada, by Auguste Carayon, S. J. Paris: L'Écureux,

1864.
FIRST MISSION OF THE JESUITS

IN CANADA.* 26

Letter From Father Pierre Biard{27} to the Very Reverend Father Claude Aquaviva{28} General of the Society of Jesus, Rome.
Dieppe, January 21st, 1611.{29}

MY VERY REVEREND FATHER,

The peace of Christ be with you.

Would that I could recount how great and numerous have been the mercies of God, the fruits of his blessing and of our prayers in this our little enterprise; that is to say, how [2] we have emerged from grave and multiplied difficulties, and how, delivered from every obstacle, we depart for New France, the place to which we [3] are bound, as Your Reverence knows. For this you may rejoice with great consolation in the name of the Lord. <snip>

So now, my Very Reverend and good Father, you see how entirely the malice of the evil one and of his tools has been turned to our advantage. At first we only asked a little corner in this vessel at their price. Now we are masters of it. We were going into a dreary wilderness, without much hope of permanent help; and we have already received enough to begin laying the foundation. We were to enrich the heretics by a portion of our alms; and now they, of their own accord, refuse to profit by an occasion which was to benefit them.

But I believe that the great source of their grief, is nothing else than the triumph of the Lord Jesus; and I may heaven grant that he always triumph!

Amen!

Dieppe, January 21, 1611.

Of Your Reverence,

The son and unworthy servant in Jesus Christ,

PIERRE BIARD S.J.
(FIRST MISSION OF THE JESUITS

IN CANADA.* 26

Letter From Father Pierre Biard{27} to the Very Reverend Father Claude Aquaviva{28} General

of the Society of Jesus, Rome.

(Translated from the Latin original, preserved in the

Archives of Jesus, at Rome.))

Letter from Father Ennemond Masse to Reverend Father Claude Aquaviva, General of the Society of Jesus.

(Translated from the Latin original.)



PORT ROYAL, June 10, 1611.

MY VERY REVEREND FATHER,

The peace of Christ be with you.

If Your Reverence read with pleasure my letter of October 13th, I felt a great deal more in receiving yours of December 7th, especially as I am the first of the Society to receive from Your Reverence the first letter which you have ever sent to Canada.

I have put a few statements into BOLD type to bring them to your attention especially, in one instance we learn that the converted Amerindians were promising to get other Amerindians to "convert" to Christianity, OR TO WAGE WAR UPON THEM; in the other instance, I point up how the Jesuit father is making special mention of how PROFITABLE his new mission could be, (trading for beaver skins, which put his mission in direct competition with Royal and independent fur traders BTW) and even inviting his BROTHER to enter in upon the venture in order to PROFIT.

Of course this example does not PROVE the Jesuits were working mines in Pimeria Alta, but does prove that they were very much concerned with making their missions PROFITABLE; it is entirely sensible for any Jesuit father to explore his own assigned region for any mineral deposits that might be worked for a profit, for the purposes of helping finance the needs of his charges (and further the aims of the Church). In fact it would be very much a failure in the duties of such a pastor, if he were to neglect to explore his immediate region with an eye to find minerals to exploit, if you think about it.

I might also point out that in this case, the term "BROTHER" was used, and as was pointed out the term "Friar" and "Fray" were interchangable with "Brother". Now we might say, well this letter must have been intended for his biological brother, hence the use of the term; consider then this passage found in yet another Jesuit letter, and dating to the 1600s:

his pious lady had paid to brother Robert du Thet, 1,000 golden Crowns, contributed according to the agreement betweent Robin and and the Canadian Fathers, for the purpose of purchasing and conveying [page 233] provisions to the colony at Port Royal; but Potrincourt, by means of his promissory note, straight-way cheated our brother out of 400, as he was not a sufficiently careful guardian of his trust, and so the whole sum was reduced to 600, by means of which a scanty store was provided for us.

(source:
A RELATION OF OCCURRENCES IN THE Mission of New France DURING THE YEARS 1613 AND 1614. From the Published Annual Letters of the Society of Jesus
LYONS, CLAUDE CAYNE, PRINTER.1618)

So we can show that the Jesuits certainly DID use the moniker "brother" when referring to one another, and it should not surprise us to find such an use in a document dating to the 1600s. One might start to think that if this IS indeed a forged document (the inventory document of Tayopa) then the forger must needs have been approaching genius, in having included such "faults" that when researched turn out to be quite the opposite! I might also point out, for those who object that my use here is an English translation of French, that the French term for "brother"is "FRERE" and etymologically identical with Spanish "Friar"!

Lamar wrote:

The Jesuits have never used the name of their patron saint, St. Ignacio for any other place than where he was born, Loyola

It is also not true that the Jesuits never used the name of their founder Ignatius, at least in one instance this name was assigned to a mission:

Missions of the Society of Jesus in North America in the Year 1710. [961]

MISSIONS among the Abenakis
Mission of St. Ignatius. <snip>remainder of list deleted as unrelated

Sorry for boring you, my friends, with yet another very long posting, just that there is a good deal of mis-information abounding in print and on the internet, while the truth, as astonishing as it is, gets lost in the shuffle. Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Perhaps I did not clarify myself. When I stated that emeralds are not native to Mexico, I meant that no emerald deposits of any quantity had yet been discovered when the Spaniards conquered Mexico. For that matter, emeralds maybe found in North Carolina, in very small quanitities, however they were not discovered in that region until the 1800s. The emerald fields of Colombia, Venezuela and Brazil are also of no use to us, as they are too far south to have ever been traded by the natives of modern day Mexico.

And now, to pick apart Oroblancos' rebuttal, we must first bear in mind several key points.
The term * make war on them* can have numerous meanings as well. It does not automatically conclude that one is preparing to slay his fellow man, rather in it's most generalized context, it means that one is willing to expend all possible time, efforts and resources on someone, or something. In French, the phrase * to make war on* would be *faire la guerre contre* and this was a fairly common French phrase of the time, implying that someone was about to embark on a special mission of some type.

I would suspect the letter to be a forgery from the single statement in the text:

"amounting to seven or eight thousand livres"

The livre had fallen from general usage by the 1600s and was in fact replaced by the Franc, if memory serves me correctly, therefore why would one refer to a monetary unit as a LIVRE when in point of fact, the monetary during that timeframe was known as the FRANC?

To continue forward, I am correct in my prior statement that the name of St. Ignacious of Loyola was NEVER used in regards to another place name. If one were to read my previous statement with care, then it would become obvious that the point I was attempting to make was that Saints are ONLY associated with their respective places of birth or death, but NEVER to another locale. The title:
St. Ignacious of Loyola is correct,
whereas
St. Ignacious of Tayopa, is not correct
The only excpetion to this rule is the Virgin Mary, and She is generally honored in such a manner as to have Her name associated with a great many place names. So, to conclude, the title "Mission of St. Ignacious" would be correct.

Next, the titles Fray, Friar and Brother are NOT used interchangeably, nor have they ever been. The title FRIAR is used exclusively by the four Great Mendicant Orders, which are: the Dominicans, the Francisians, the Augustinians and the Carmelites. The word MENDICANT means *Beggar* as these four Orders originally supported themselves through begging and charitable donations.

The Society of Jesus is a Teaching Order and as such, It is the largest religious Teaching Order of it's kind in the world. It's members have NEVER referred to each other as FRAY, FRIAR or anything except FATHER, for ordained Jesuit priests, and BROTHER, for non-ordained Jesuit monks, in much the same way as Roman Catholic nuns are referred to as SISTER.

As another aside, the title FATHER is correct usage for all ordained Roman Catholic priests, from the newest ordained priest all of the way to the Pope.

The initials I.S. or J.S are also correct form when a Jesuit signs his name to a document. The initials I.H.S. are known as *Christogram* or a *trigram*, symbolizing the first 3 letters of Jesus Christs' name in Greek, with the Holy Cross of Jesus drawn above the H and the exteme end of the cross' vertical post touching the crossbar of the H. It later became surmised, incorrectly, that the initials represented "Iesus Homini Salvator" which in English translates into "Jesus, the Savior of Men" and still later as "Iesum Habemus Socium" in English meaning "We have Jesus as our Friend (Companion)". The Trigram IHS is the official Trigram for the Society of Jesus and it recognized by the Holy See as such. No other Roman Catholic Order uses the initials IHS as part of their symbolism or signature.

Titles of individuals are also acceptable to Jesuits when they pertain to the station which the Jesuit in question has attained, HOWEVER as a SOCIETY the Jesuits have never once been called anything other than Jesuits or the Society of Jesus. If a Jesuit is a college dean, then the correct title would be Fr. So & So, Dean, Such & Such Univerisity, SJ. As another aside, the title DEAN originated in medieval Christian monasteries in Europe, with certain members being addressed as Decanus, which in Latin literally translates into *leader of ten* as the monks organized themselves into groups of ten, with the seniormost member being called DECANUS.

As monasteries and Cathedrals evolved into colleges and univerisities, the title followed along with the evolution, and now refers to anyone holding the capacity as administrator.

To close this particular missive, I beg each and all to thoroughly and studiously the subject matter in question, in it's entiriety before drawing any particular conclusion. This includes research into the formation of the Roman Catholic Church and the governments of Europe prior to the discovery of the New World by Columbus.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[the blindbowman]

the topic is the spelling of tayopa , and you degussing jesuits , how easy you are distracted from true path..

 

[lamar]

Dear blindbowman;
How a native word is pronounced or spelt rests entirely upon the person who heard the word then wrote it down. Simply because a name may have multiple spellings or pronounciations does not automatically mean it was written in a form of code or someone was hiding aomething.

For example, the Incan language, Quetchua, is still spoken by many here in Bolivia and if I hear a word in this language I will try and write it phonically, which is the only way I can write it as I do not know the Quetchua alphabet, or if there even is a true alphabet. So yes, I will make mistakes, lot of them in fact. It only stands to reason. There is no mystery here, no hidden codes, and no shadow societies in the wings, manipulating mankind.

Oops, I already made an error! The word Quetchua is actually spelled universally as QUECHUA, without a T. Who knew It's VERY easy to make mistakes with pronounciations and spellings and on old maps and charts misspelled or mispronounced names are the norm instead of the exception. It would behoove everyone to accept this a fact, for it is a fact.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Real de Tayopa;
The page from the book which you so thoughtfully posted for us (and I do thank you for your efforts!) states that common beryl can be found in Mexico, which is entirely true, however common beryl is colorless and can be found in large abundance in many places in the world. Emeralds on the other hand, require chromium or more rarely, vanadium in order to impart the green color to them. Chromium or vanadium does not tend to occur naturally with beryl in any large quanitity in Mexico, my friend.

Therefore, while the statement that common beryl occurs in Mexico, to state that green beryl AKA emeralds, would be a false statement. It was a nice effort on your part though and I do applaud your inquisitive nature.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear oroblanco;
You stated:


Alaman, however, denies that this stone was an emerald, or that any true emeralds were found by the Conquerors in Mexico, notwithstanding the frequent mention of them in contemporary relations. "There are no emeralds," he says, "in our republic; and the stones mistaken for them at the time of the Conquest were jade or serpentine." As an evidence of the ignorance on this subject common in Europe at a former period, he cites the famous instance of the Sacro Catino at Genoa, regarded for ages as an emerald of priceless value, but now proved to be an imitation. ( Disertaciones históricas, tom. i p. 161.) It is certain that no emeralds are now found in any part of North America. Yet the Conquerors would seem to have been more descriminating than Señor Alaman represents them. They distinguished the chalchivitl, supposed to have been jade, from the emerald, and rejected as valueless other green stones prized by the natives. The case of the Sacro Catino does not apply, since it is not pretended that the Mexicans possessed the art of imitating precious stones by means of paste. The fact, therefore, that the emeralds sent and taken to Europe by Cortés were there recognized as genuine affords a presumptive proof in their favour, which has been generally accepted as sufficient by modern writers on the subject."

If there in fact emeralds which originated from Mexico, then surely one or two specimens MUST have survived until today, however there does not seem to be a single example which has survived the Conquistadores to the modern age. I find this to be very odd indeed as there are many other artifacts which did survive, yet out of the massive emerald wealth removed from Mexico, not so much as a single stone remains.

Also, to verify the place of origin for an emerlad is a VERY simple matter indeed, as all emeralds are flawed by the very nature of their crystalization process, and so, by examing inclusions in a particular emerald, one can place it's origin to within a few hundred square miles of it's origin.

Emeralds were also the most expensive jewels during the late Medival to the early Renaissance period and naturally any Conquistador who, wishing for Royal backing, would profess to native civilizations having vast hordes of them. You can bet your treasure maps that if diamonds were the most valuable stone during the conquest of the New World, then the letters from the Conquistadores to the Royal financiers would have had the natives looking like they shopped at Tiffanys' and Harry Winstons'.

And so, without so much as a solitary remaining emerald example from Mexico, we may conclusively decide that those early descriptions of the native population of Mexico wearing emeralds is just so much fabrication.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good Morning MY Amiog Lamar, You posted ----->

And so, without so much as a solitary remaining emerald example from Mexico, we may conclusively decide that those early descriptions of the native population of Mexico wearing emeralds is just so much fabrication.

Chromium or vanadium does not tend to occur naturally with beryl "in any large quanitity in Mexico", my friend.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In any large quantity, agreed however -- This was in answer to my posting of a page in Mineralogy, hover this addition is from a gem id site, easily found by yourself. in which is found the following -->

"Emerald - Emeralds are found in Mexico. Two main sources are the mines in Guerrero and Vera Cruz. Emeralds found there have a tendency toward lighter shades and are clearer than those found in other countries. The stones have lighter hues and the crystals are phantomed with a transparent interior and a saturated exterior.

Emeralds that are found in Guerrero are saturated dark green. They have a visible termination of their interior color saturation and exterior transparency. The highly saturated emeralds are the most elegant"
=================================================================

CJ you posted --->

Lamar is correct when he states there are no native emeralds from Mexico. He is, however, wrong when he includes all of North America in his claim.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

HI, see above post. In any event, we are being reduced to nit picking and losing track.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning again Lamar : You posted -->

Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of "St. Ignacio of Tayopa," and Jesuit of the Great Faculty of Sonora and Biscalla
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I agree, however you are not allowing for a series of copies starting with perhaps a faded and stained one in which some of the letters can also easily be misinterpreted due to penmenship. I have documents in which it is nearly impossible to distinguish between various letters.

T, P & L at times are easily mistaken, so are others, due to the flourishing penmenship in those days. So it would be normal to misinterpret the letters if one was looking for data on Tayopa, or from simple negligence.------

T a y o P a
L o y o L a

The above is Curious, no? Coincidence?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[lamar]

Dear Real de Tayopa;
I very respectfully tend to disagree with whomever penned the statement that:

"Emeralds are mostly found in Mexico. Two main sources are the mines in Guerrero and Vera Cruz. Emeralds found there have a tendency toward lighter shades and are clearer than those found in other countries. The stones have lighter hues and the crystals are phantomed with a transparent interior and a saturated exterior"

This is a complete and TOTAL fabrication and it in no WAY can be construed as having even the tiniest grain of truth. The largest current emerald workings are located in Muzo, Colombia, where I have visited many times in the past, followed by Zambia and Zembabwe, Africa. The region of the Gulf Coast where Vera Cruz lies is known as the Emerald Coast, but only because the waters there tend to be very green, due to the very high amounts of silicia, formed as galacial flour and deposited there.

Whoever wrote that *article* stating that emeralds are, or were in the recent past, mined in either Vera Cruz of Guerrero is either badly misinformed, not knowledgable where his emerald stock is originating from, or is a con artist. I've been to Vera Cruz many times and being a certified gemologist, both diamonds and colored stones, I would not pass up the oppurtunity to view some local rough for possible purchases. I've made several past purchases from the 3 mines in Muzo, Colombia and even procured one or two small emerald packages from Brazil, but I have never heard of any mineral activity originating in either Guerrero or Vera Cruz, Mexico.

Furthermore, none of my gemology volumes lists Mexico as being either a major OR a minor source of gem quality beryl. Once again, the caveat against using the Internet as a sole source of reference material can lead one to false conclusions.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Oro,

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cactusjumper wrote:

Quote
My guess is that Azmula may be the first to provide that kind of evidence. Even so, it has taken him years to dig it up. If any of you come with a pile of Franciscan slag to prove your point, and I am still alive, I won't be nodding my head in sheepish approval. If you come with the goods, my applause will be as loud as anyone's.

Is any of that unreasonable?

Your prediction re: Azmula may well be correct; it is not my own mission in life to prove the Jesuits involvement, beyond our discussion here, perhaps Azmula has taken this as a ‘mission’. Your example of a pile of Franciscan slag is not a good one to make the point, for no one can PROVE the slag found near the Guevavi nor the Tumacacor (original, NOT the later Franciscan) is of Franciscan OR Jesuit origins. No one can prove just who/whom left those slag piles, however in the case of the Guevavi mission, we know that the Franciscans were only occupying the mission for a period of two years, compared with nearly 76 years it was possessed by the Jesuit order. The slag is circumstantial evidence, not incontrovertible evidence. Or are you now saying that the slag is DEFINTELY of Franciscan origins?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I believe you are misreading your own, and Mike's "evidence".

"....no one can PROVE the slag found near the Guevavi nor the Tumacacor".

You have added "near" and joined Guevavi and Tumacacori together for the "slag" pile. Your best bet here, is to read the two (2) separate histories of Guevavi and Tumacacori.

I suggest you go back to the site that Mike provided and read the entire write-up. The buildings being described belong to the Tumacacori site and not Guevavi, and yes......that does make them Franciscan.

We are discussing Jesuit mining in the New World and the proof of that activity. As Jose has assured us, Jesuit mining of Tayopa is a major part of his conclusions as to what he has found. We are looking for any supporting evidence that such mining took place. What has been offered as proof, is not Jesuit.

That is my opinion, based on a close reading of the "evidence".

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/pinkley/pinkley_tuma/sec1.htm

Please explain where I have gone wrong and what I have missed here.

One last point: Slag was used in the plaster applied to the walls of the buildings:

"The outside walls of the church were finished with a double coat of lime plaster. The lime was obtained by burning stone which can be found in the vicinity of the mission. Above the offset line, or on approximately the upper half of the walls, the plaster was floated smooth and left with out decoration, but on the lower half of the walls a peculiar form of decoration was used. Fragments of brick and black slag were crushed until the pieces were about the size of grains of corn. Before the plastered surface of the wall had hardened, the workmen went over it, slapping half a handful of these red and black pebbles into the soft plaster at intervals of about a foot in regular lines which ran vertically, diagonally, and in a horizontal direction. The black and red mixture makes an interesting decoration in the white lime plaster."

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola Peeps: First CJ--------->

As Jose has assured us, Jesuit mining of Tayopa is a major part of his conclusions as to what he has found. We are looking for any supporting evidence that such mining took place.
What has been offered as proof, is not Jesuit.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Nope it hasn't been, nor will any more be posted until I have my permits. So if you want definitive proof, get the gov't, or the Jesuits, to cracking. However, I will discuss any other data that may be posted in here unless it comes too close to --X.
==============================================================

Lamar my friend, I will definitely concede that Mexico never was a major producer of Emeralds, but I will not concede that she never had any. Are the Iron based Emeralds valuable yet?

Near here there are large deposits of Aquamarines of different colors. The Indians think that they are Emeralds, but this is easily discounted without destroying the hopes of the Indians.

They also have small Rubies near by in a placer area, most are too small to be of commercial value as Jewelry.

I had an Amethyst deposit for a while, but gave it up because the matrix was too hard, but the Quality was excellent. There were a few red Garnets there also.

As I mentioned, I had an Opal mine here, it is in a blue / grey base, with green and Blue colors, no red. but very beautiful.

There are many many jewelry class minerals here, including Lapis Lazuli in commercial grades. My , deceased father in law had a spot up on the nearby mt where he said there were many many crystals different colors in the loose soil. He was always going to show me the area, but somehow, we never managed to get together, now it is too late sniff.

No, Mexico does have her share of gem materiel, some of which are very high comercial quality and quantity.

However, we are strayng from the origional subject and purpose," how extensvely did the Jesuits work Tayopa", and why?..


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,

Lamar wrote:

I would suspect the letter to be a forgery from the single statement in the text:

"amounting to seven or eight thousand livres"

Your accusation is quite out of place, the source is from the Jesuits themselves, available online from several locations. The French monetary unit “livre” was still in use in 1763, as can be proven by court documents in the legal case against the Jesuits of France.

Lamar wrote:

To continue forward, I am correct in my prior statement that the name of St. Ignacious of Loyola was NEVER used in regards to another place name. If one were to read my previous statement with care, then it would become obvious that the point I was attempting to make was that Saints are ONLY associated with their respective places of birth or death, but NEVER to another locale

Then you are now claiming that the Jesuits own records of their efforts in New France, which included a mission named MISSION ST. IGNATIUS (located at Michilimacinac) are either erroneous, which would be quite surprising since these are letters written BY the Jesuits working in those very missions in New France, or that the whole of the record is a forgery.

Lamar wrote:

Next, the titles Fray, Friar and Brother are NOT used interchangeably, nor have they ever been.

Then I must conclude that either you have not researched many Jesuit documents dating to the 1600s, or that you are now claiming that any and all Jesuit documents that are found to include such references, with a Jesuit referring to another Jesuit as “FRERE” or “FRIAR” or “BROTHER” are all spurious. In this event, then I must state by this standard, there ARE no records from the Jesuits of the 1600s.

Lamar wrote:

Dear Real de Tayopa;
The page from the book which you so thoughtfully posted for us (and I do thank you for your efforts!) states that common beryl can be found in Mexico, which is entirely true, however common beryl is colorless and can be found in large abundance in many places in the world.<snip>

Lamar my friend you are mistaken on this subject, Beryl; I understand that your reply was directed to our mutual friend Real de Tayopa, but according to my geologic books and gemstone books Beryl comes in a virtual rainbow of colors, and is only called “emerald” when it is of GEM QUALITY. Colorless beryl is not the definition of beryl, for in this case it is known as Goshenite; a gemologist could further define the difference between a GEM of beryl which would then be known by its’ gem name (eg emerald) or of non-gem quality, which is then known as simply “beryl”. A short but fairly accurate description is online at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryl

Lamar wrote:

<snip – a discussion of how valuable emeralds were in colonial times, how any found in Mexico would be still in our possession etc edited for the sake of brevity> …And so, without so much as a solitary remaining emerald example from Mexico, we may conclusively decide that those early descriptions of the native population of Mexico wearing emeralds is just so much fabrication.

My friend Lamar you do seem have a penchant for making SWEEPING statements, which are so inviting to ‘pick apart’. You do not really mean what I am getting from this post do you? Have you read anything of the trade networks and routes of pre-Columbian America? If you have, how can you make the conclusion that emeralds from Colombia are “too far away” to have ended up in Mexico? Would you like me to post some online examples of maps and articles on pre-Columbian trade networks and routes?

From your repeated statements and stances, it is becoming readily apparent even to such a dull wit as my own that you seem to have quite a personal bias, a tendency to dismiss anything and everything that might possibly point to any sort of Jesuit activity in mining or handling treasures. I have no wish to alienate your friendship or offend your beliefs, so would happily drop the subject should you so desire. I do respectfully disagree with you, on many points we have covered thus far; however a fair number of the ‘sweeping’ statements you have posted could be taken as misleading to some of our readers who are not posting.

Cactusjumper wrote:

You have added "near" and joined Guevavi and Tumacacori together for the "slag" pile. Your best bet here, is to read the two (2) separate histories of Guevavi and Tumacacori.

My friend it is you that are in error, for in a past post I included the statement of a local rancher who said there were slag piles near the original Jesuit mission church of Tumacacori, he did not mention any such slag near Guevavi, this was reported by OTHER sources. There are TWO separate and distinct reported slag piles, one being near Guevavi, the other near the OLD JESUIT church of Tumacacori. I have indeed read every history of both Guevavi and Tumacacori that I was able to find, as well as numerous other sources such as those mentioned earlier.

Real de Tayopa wrote:

However, we are strayng from the origional subject and purpose," how extensvely did the Jesuits work Tayopa", and why?..

I agree this discussion has drifted very far off-topic, the result of some sweeping statements dismissing every report of any kind of Jesuit mining activity as false and bordering on libelous. Hence those who are convinced the Jesuits were in fact operating mines (which could have been “owned” by the Church, thus freeing the Jesuits from any stain of “ownership”) have been goaded into posting numerous responses to show that there IS good reason to believe the Jesuits were in fact involved in mining in the New World. No one doubts they were mining in the Old World, but for some reason it is somehow a “stain” on their honor to admit to it in the New. In fact these vigorous denials of everything only serves to cast doubts upon their stance, when so many circumstantial evidences can be shown, including the statement put forth by a Jesuit, describing how an Indian refused to show the location of a secret silver mine, despite the promises of the missionary.

I have no doubt that Tayopa was a Jesuit operation, based on what I have seen; if someone could show me documents that had the titles to the various mines were held by people other than the Catholic church or the Society of Jesus (Regimente Militante) I would be quite willing to alter my views on Tayopa.

Ed, my condolences on the loss of your father, I am sorry to hear that.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Postscript: concerning emeralds reported found in Mexico:

French Researchers Find Way to Trace Emeralds' Origins

A new source of emeralds was opened up when the Spanish, after much torture and protracted fighting, discovered the Colombian mines that were the source of the emeralds found in Mexico and Peru.
Dr. Giuliani tested a smuggled emerald -- it was not listed on the manifest -- salvaged recently from the Spanish treasure galleon Nuestra Senora de Atocha, which foundered off Key West in 1622. The oxygen isotope test showed that the emerald came from the Tequendama mine of the Muzo district of Colombia.
Having gained the Colombian mines, the Spanish started to develop buyers for emeralds and found considerable interest among the rulers of India, Persia and Turkey.
''So sultans, shahs and maharajahs were the principal market,'' said Fred Ward, a gemologist and author of the book ''Emeralds'' (Gem Book Publishers, 1996).
The Spanish at first shipped the emeralds from Spain and then sent them via the Philippines. In India, the Philippines was long believed to be the stones' source of origin, Mr. Ward said.

Just wanted to clarify that emeralds reported found by Coronado and other early Spanish explorers in Mexico were not “spurious” nor figments of their imagination, but had originated in distant Colombia.

Your friend,
Oroblanco

 

[Cubfan64]

Well People,

Due to unforeseen circumstances I will not be able to take the trip to Mexico that I have been planning for quite some time...My dad past away on the 3rd of December and I have had to take care of his final arrangements...Maybe next year I will be able to take the trip..

Ed T

I'm really sorry to hear about your families loss Ed.

 

[lamar]

Dear EdT;
Your father shall be in my prayers, my friend. If there is any way I may be of assistance please do not hesitate to contact me.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

You and your family have all my sympathy. It must be very difficult right now.

Best-Mike

 

[the blindbowman]

Well People,

Due to unforeseen circumstances I will not be able to take the trip to Mexico that I have been planning for quite some time...My dad past away on the 3rd of December and I have had to take care of his final arrangements...Maybe next year I will be able to take the trip..

Ed T

it could be worse Ed , both the people in my life that past away sent me way , they knew i could feel what was happening and they did not want share these feelings with me .....

love can hert more then know . i saved two lives by being with other people but could not save the ones i wanted to... they would not let me save them .. why ED do you know or under this ...?

did you get a chance to say good bye , post his picture and i will do a reading for you if you wish .. ...he wanted you to go . you know that dont you ...then something about setting around watching TV and nothing really on anymore ... did he have something wrong with the left side of his mouth...? a burning feeling ..just on the left side ...

you take ED

 

[Cubfan64]

Blindbowman,

He had been in bad shape for quite some time, bad heart and all. He had a heart attack back in 05 I believe and he had not been the same since. We had been trying to get him to go to the doctor or hospital for the last two months, but he was stubborn and refused to go. In a way I feel that he is better off now, due to the fact that he is no longer suffering. He also past away in the nite in his sleep I feel that it is for the best seeing that he did pass in his sleep.

At times I do feel that maybe I should take the trip. I have already taken care of his final wishes. He had told me that he wanted to be cremated without a public viewing. We did have a family viewing though, and one of our mother's close friends showed up too. My mother had already past away back in 04, and now that my father has passed, I feel pretty sad.

I still have 3 brothers and a sister here in town who are sharing in the grieving process. So, it is not that bad.

Maybe I should just get on with my life and take the trip to Mexico. At least that way I will be able to occupy my mind with other thoughts. The beer is always nice and cold in Mexico and I usually always drink Pacifico and Tecate Light, that is one way to drown my sorrows. My wife tells me it would probably be best if we do go.

I will keep you all informed.

Ed T

P.s. I am not sure if he had something wrong with his mouth, though it did appear that he did have a small amount of drool coming out of it at the time that we found him blindbowman.

I'm sure you're father's in a better place now and odds are pretty good he wouldn't want everyone spending too much time grieving over his passing, in fact he would probably encourage you to do something interesting and exciting like you had been planning.

In alot of ways he'll probably even be making the trip with you

Take care

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola Ed, I have just found your post about your father, I am soo sorry, but don't let that stop any plans that you two may have made to come to Mexico. As a result of my infamous experiments, I have found that something continues to exist after death. He may just want you to do so.

For want of a better word, one could call it a soul. It is intelligent, but for some reason we cannot communicate. However, in many ways it may be able to let you know that it is still around for a while.

My dogie and I were very close. After she died, she kept pulling the covers off of me and shaking the bed for about a month. She would also move or rattle her food dish. In many little ways she let me know that she was still there. She weighed about 75#. .

Many others have had the same experience with a loved one or animal, I wasn't unique.. Look around, and try to be aware of anything subtle or unusual.

We may meet in Mexico one of these days.

Don Jose de La Mancha