True Spelling

[Springfield]

Lamar, Joe, or anyone else,

Jose has brought up my ABSOLUTE MAIN argument for my belief in Jesuit Mining! WHY was a secret simultaneous arrest warrant necessary for a simple expulsion? This is a point I have argued for many years, and have not gotten a good answer as of yet.

1. They were not being Killed (no need to secrecy)
2. They were not being tortured (no need for secrecy)
3. They were simply being sent back to Europe. Why the secrecy? The only sane reason I can imagine is that Charles III wanted to catch them "with their pants down" (before they had a chance to do something). What something would that be? Before they had a chance to hide their mining activity.

Best-Mike

Things are seldom as they seem, especially regarding 'historical' events. Whether 500 years ago or 5 days ago, those who control the media (hand-written documentation in the days of yore, TV news today) establish the 'facts' that the world accepts as 'truth'. Simple conditioning.

The recent SJ apologists (eg Polzer, Lamar, et al), as archivists, are good soldiers, offering logical, dogmatic 'fact'-based arguements that there was no mining in the New World attributed to the brothers. Those who believe otherwise base their point of view on a substantial amount of anecdotal and circumstantial evidence. Lamar is correct in one respect - no 'smoking gun' (ie irrefutabal proof) has been produced to satisfy all. Given the secrecy and unsurpassed brilliance of the SJ operatives of the time, it's questionable that such evidence will be recovered. Therefore, this arguement will continue in a similar direction - circular.

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good Morning Springfield: you said--->

Given the secrecy and unsurpassed brilliance of the SJ operatives of the time, it's questionable that such evidence will be recovered. Therefore, this arguement will continue in a similar direction - circular.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Only if you ignore the data that I have and the fact that I have Tayopa along with the location of their deposit one days east of Taypa in which they left a lot of rolled up paper scrolls and documents, plus the church ornaments of Tayopa.

I also know exactly where the deposit holding the accumulated metal to finance the take over is..

I suggest that you read posts no. 176, 180 again. these are as close to legal proofs as can be gotten today..

In a case involving Law, I would say that I have a 99% probability of a successful conviction.

And Yes, I certaionly do have more data, but, unfortuately I cannot redlease it unitl I have successfully finished Tyopa.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning :

Gollum: One reason that they failed to find any mines or proof of the planned revolt, is simply that most of the Mission Priests and personel, did not have any mines or Opulence. They actually had no connection other than being Jesuits.

The story that the Jesuits were mining or planning a revolt quickly died for lack of evidence , simply because they were looking in the wrong place and at the wrong people...
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Oro mi buddy: I frankly have no positive idea, but I suspect that many similar spellings of Tayopa developed as other rich mines, or districts, were found it, was assumed that this / threse were Tayopa?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bb: I have a goody for you which I will post both in here and The Lost Dutchamn. Long story here, but it is interesting in light of what you believe .

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Jose,

"I also know exactly where the deposit holding the accumulated metal to finance the take over is.."

What "take over" are you talking about?

"And Yes, I certaionly do have more data, but, unfortuately I cannot redlease it unitl I have successfully finished Tyopa."

Not saying you don't have the data or "Tyopa".....How would I know?, but surely you realize how many thousands of times that same story has been told by treasure hunters.

Considering the record of government thieves running Mexico, since day one, how much confidence to you have that you won't end up dead and the local police chief's cousin won't end up owning your mine?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good Mornig CJ my friend: you asked----->

Not saying you don't have the data or "Tyopa".....How would I know?, but surely you realize how many thousands of times that same story has been told by treasure hunters
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Of course I do, but since this is only a basic, coffee table, type of discussion group , I certainly will not jepoardize the Tayopa, and allied operation, by disclosing too much. I will not post the truth unitl I am finished, sides much of that data will go into the book. "You are just going to have to wait for your autographed copy"
==============================================================

you posted --->

Considering the record of government thieves running Mexico, since day one, how much confidence to you have that you won't end up dead and the local police chief's cousin won't end up owning your mine?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

NONE! but, one can only play the cards that are dealt to him. A local cannot touch Tayopa, only a high placed official in the Gov't mining office might. This is precisely why I am soo vague on actual data on Tayopa itself. Losing a few fingernails might encourage me to co-operate though. sigh. In the US this would mean a quick trip to Guantanomo.

Nothing is sure in this life, except that you will eventually meet the Dutchman.,

No property, person, mine or business is sure in the US either any more. They are just a bit more subtle up there -- so far. .

What do you think of the Mayan /Aztex faces carved on the roof of the underground room?

BB is going to have a field day. hehehe.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[the blindbowman]

need more gear .lol

 

[Oroblanco]

Greetings friends,

Blindbowman I was only puzzled as to why you decided to remove your first and second post, thought perhaps there was something there that you decided was letting slip some detail, or that you had lost patience with us. I have changed my mind (and edited posts) myself, frequently enough.

Gollum wrote:

They were not being tortured (no need for secrecy)

According to one Jesuit source, the head of a Jesuit college was indeed tortured. His account is so humorous that I could hardly read the full story, as the Spanish soldiers searched in some quite un-savory places. The fact that the Spanish immediately asked "where is the treasure" in so many instances, then proceeded to search for hidden treasures does help to show that the true reason for expelling the Jesuits had little to do with politicKs, and much to do with suspicions of Jesuit illicit activities in hiding treasures. Some treasure was found, in this particular case some 20,000 pesos, but according to the Jesuits this money belonged to someone else; the Spanish authorities of course did not believe this.

It is easy enough to understand the Spanish (and Portuguese for that matter) in having such suspicions of the Jesuits. The Crown was well aware of the problems in Portuguese colonies, where the Jesuits were actually protecting the Amerindians from slavers. In one instance a Jesuit priest actually led Amerindians alongside Spanish troops to fight Portuguese slavers in Bolivia, soundly defeating them and driving them out of the province. The apparent opulence and even magnificence of SOME Jesuit missions and colleges certainly would have led anyone (not a Jesuit) who saw them to believe that the Jesuits operating them MUST be highly successful at some kind of income.

Then we have the English. What should a Spanish king think, when his offer to marry the queen of England is declined, along with a statement made directly to the Spanish ambassador, saying that "so much money is being sent to the Pope that she must put a stop to it"? At first glance, this might be taken as the Spanish government sending money, but it also might raise suspicions that the English were telling him something - that treasure was being shipped on Spanish and Portuguese ships, not necessarily with the knowledge or permission of Spain, but secretly by smuggling. The king might even begin to suspect that the English were not deliberately making war with Spain so much as trying to stop the illegal shipments of money to the Pope, in the process being forced to attack Spanish ships. Smuggling was big business aboard Spanish & Portuguese ships, and highly successful; in some cases corrupt officials might well have been "looking the other way". Put yourself in the position of king of Spain, with several different Church orders of missionaries working in your colonies, hearing of accusations against them (ill-founded or not) hearing such a strange statement from the queen of England, your (sometime) enemy, etc? Would you be SO full of faith in the loyalty of ALL the missionaries, in particular one that has a special vow of obedience to the Pope which outweighs any vow to a king, that you would presume they were innocent?

Some INDIVIDUAL Jesuits even profited by the work of the English and French pirates/privateers.
Extract:

In March 1694 the Jesuit writer, Labat, took part in a Mass at Martinique which was {74} performed for some French buccaneers in pursuance of a vow made when they were taking two English vessels near Barbadoes. The French vessel and its two prizes were anchored near the church, and fired salutes of all their cannon at the beginning of the Mass, at the Elevation of the Host, at the Benediction, and again at the end of the Te Deum sung after the Mass.106 Labat, who, although a priest, is particularly lenient towards the crimes of the buccaneers, and who we suspect must have been the recipient of numerous "favours" from them out of their store of booty, relates a curious tale of the buccaneer, Captain Daniel, a tale which has often been used by other writers, but which may bear repetition. Daniel, in need of provisions, anchored one night off one of the "Saintes," small islands near Dominica, and landing without opposition, took possession of the house of the curé and of some other inhabitants of the neighbourhood. He carried the curé and his people on board his ship without offering them the least violence, and told them that he merely wished to buy some wine, brandy and fowls. While these were being gathered, Daniel requested the curé to celebrate Mass, which the poor priest dared not refuse. So the necessary sacred vessels were sent for and an altar improvised on the deck for the service, which they chanted to the best of their ability. As at Martinique, the Mass was begun by a discharge of artillery, and after the Exaudiat and prayer for the King was closed by a loud "Vive le Roi!" from the throats of the buccaneers. A single incident, however, somewhat disturbed the devotions. One of the buccaneers, remaining in an indecent attitude during the Elevation, was rebuked by the captain, and instead of heeding the correction, replied with an impertinence and a fearful oath. Quick as a flash Daniel whipped out his pistol and shot the buccaneer through the head, {75} adjuring God that he would do as much to the first who failed in his respect to the Holy Sacrifice. The shot was fired close by the priest, who, as we can readily imagine, was considerably agitated. "Do not be troubled, my father," said Daniel; "he is a rascal lacking in his duty and I have punished him to teach him better." A very efficacious means, remarks Labat, of preventing his falling into another like mistake. After the Mass the body of the dead man was thrown into the sea, and the curé was recompensed for his pains by some goods out of their stock and the present of a negro slave.107

(The Buccaneers in the West Indies in the XVII Century by Clarence Henry Haring METHUEN & CO. LTD. 36 ESSEX STREET W.C. LONDON _First Published in 1910_)

Are we to assume that no illicit activity on the part of any missionaries, ever reached the ears of the king of Spain?

Real de Tayopa, the only reason I asked about TOAPA was that I had found a letter, writing about a Spanish military 'entrada' against Seris (if memory serves)which was posted from that point, in the 1670's. The name TOAPA when spoken, has a somewhat similar 'ring' to Tayopa, but could be just coincidental.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

very truly yours,
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Buenas dias Gentlemen: Lamar, you are too quiet, I hope that you haven't taken a vow of silence sniff.

BB & Cj I have no interest in the cave and spiral steps data, I merly mentioned it as a side anex to the LDM for your general interest.

Why have we gone soo quiet?

gollum, it now against the law to have female sex saves.

Let's get to rockin n rolin agan.



Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. The Guarijiros have actually accused me of being a reincarnated Jesuit, sheehs, me with my various vices?

 

[cactusjumper]

Jose,

"gollum, it now against the law to have female sex saves."

Not if they volunteer.....

The most interesting parts of your story, had to do with his knowing Ron Eagle and a man named Horvaka. That's pretty hard to find, but I did find a father and son with that last name, who took cave diving lessons from a fellow in Maya Riviera down in Mexico. Their instructor had some experience with Mayan......something.

Considering the story that some of the cave entrances may be underwater in Roosevelt Lake, and the Mayan portion of the story.......With your background I'm sure you can connect the dots.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose de La Mancha wrote:

p.s. The Guarijiros have actually accused me of being a reincarnated Jesuit, sheehs, me with my various vices?

Hmm............now why should they get that idea, seeing that you have found numerous Jesuit-Tayopa documents, and Tayopa, and have stated repeatedly your saintly nature? Perhaps they were aware of your friendship with father Polzer? Probably just some WILD idea?

Real de Tayopa wrote:

Sigh it is an extremely fascinating part of history, on one hand a group of dedicated individuals for the good of the population, on the other, a group dedicated to furthering the Society's advancement and power, yet the two never had contact with each other..

Jesus said, "It is to those [who are worthy of My] mysteries that I tell My mysteries. Do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing." (G.T. :62)


Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Jose,

"gollum, it now against the law to have female sex saves."

Not if they volunteer.....

But you'd better get a signed agreement! With the way people are getting arrested and sued, you need backup! Just look at Rick James!

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear real de Tayopa;
A vow of silence, my friend? That would be the Trappists, I think. Strictly as an aside, no Roman Ctholic religious order, throughout their various long histories, has ever required a vow of silence. I am reminded of a story of a young notevate nun, whom, upon taking her vows, also took a rather unique vow to her particular Order, which was that she was only permitted to speak 2 words every five years, and only to the Mother Superior. The first five years go by and Mother Superior calls the nun into her office, whereupon the nun utters her two words. "Bed hard!" Mother Superior replies, "The bed which you sleep upon was so thoughtfully by handcrafted by the Augustian monks just down the road from us, over 200 years ago. It's constructed in such a way to remind us of our Lords' suffering and so, it's not meant to provide one with comfort."

And so, another five years passes and the nun enters Mother Superiors' office and states "Food terrible!" Mother Superior replies, "Yes, the food is terrible and it's been this way since Sister Mary Agnes passed on. She was the only one of us who was a student in the finer culniary arts and until such time as we are find a replacement for her, the food shall remain the same as it now".

And so, another five years goes by and the nun enters Mother Superiors' office once more and proclaims "I quit!". Mother Superior replies, "It's probably just as well that you do quit. All you've ever done since you've been here is just bitch, bitch, bitch!"

And so, never let it be stated that us old school Roman Catholics have no sense of humor, my friend.

As to my whereabouts, I was pursuing more immediate and mundane tasks, but I am now free once more to take up this scholarly, yet highly highly speculative, discussion. I beg your indulgence in this regard and I pray my absence was of no great import.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola Mi Extimado Amigo Lamar: You said-->

"I beg your indulgence in this regard and I pray my absence was of no great import".
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It was, in my frustration and fear, I was forced to go turn to drink and the flesh pots to assuage my fears and doubts.. My forced lapse into sin will be added to your account...

Since ORO and gullum are already beyond redemption ------

Don Jose de La Mancha (ex Saint)

 

[Oroblanco]

Real de Tayopa wrote:

Since ORO and gullum are already beyond redemption ------

Iesous epo autos ego eimi anastasis kai zoe pisteuo eis eme kan apothnesko zao
John 11:25, and remember
Mark 4:28

Vaya con Dios mi amigos,
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

[Let's start with a quote from Professor W. Wrightson who was the General Agent for the Aztec Syndicate Mining Group. He was exploring the Santa Cruz River Valley looking for good mining sites. Now, I would think that a Mining Syndicate General Agent would be pretty well versed in most all aspects of mining operations. Pretty obvious to me. Let's hear what he says about one of the things he found when he visited the Mission Ruins at Tumacacori in 1860 (it was long abandoned by then):

"To the east of this square of sumptious residences was an oblong building, where the metallurgical operations were carried on. Here are still the remains of furnaces and quantities of slag, attesting the purpose for which this was formerly used."

Furnaces with slag are not indicative of lime or brick burning pits as stated by the NPS (National Park Service).]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Outside of the granary is a large courtyard which was the center of daily life at Tumacácori Mission.

Here a square of buildings surrounded a plaza where there once was an ironworker’s shop, a carpentry shop, a weaving room, a leather shop and a grain grinding mill.

Tumacacori is the site of a Franciscan mission that was built in the late 1700s. It takes its name from an earlier mission site founded by Father Eusebio Kino in 1691, which is on the east side of the river south of the National Park.

Lime plaster was used to protect the adobe from moisture, while still allowing it to breath. Tons of raw material in the form of limestone boulders had to be brought to the mission for processing so that a coat of plaster, often more than two inches thick, could be applied to the walls. Like the timbers in the roof, limestone had to be transported some thirty miles from the Santa Rita Mountains to the east. This was most likely accomplished by means of ox carts, traveling through some thirty miles of the most dangerous Apache country in the world.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It seems to me, that a little historical fact and one hell of a lot of wishful thinking has gone into the furnace/lime kiln/slag conclusions.

First of all, the description of the mission and it's adjacent buildings is of the Franciscan Church, built after the expulsion of the Jesuits. Perhaps you should be looking for Franciscan treasure......

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
To state that a mission, hacienda, comienda or reduction had a blacksmith shop on the premises is akin to stating that they also had an outhouse. All communities in the New World which were stylized in the European fashion had blacksmith shops as they were vitally important to the local inhabitants.

Next, to state that a particular building may be of Francisian origin is more true than most people, including historians, would think. There seems to be a general consensus that all of the missionaries in the New World, during any particular timeframe, were of one religious order, and while this assumption is neat and tidy, it's also wholly false.

The two largest monastetic orders which counted conversion to Christianity amongst it's primary goals were the Francisians and the Dominicans. In 1493, Pope Alexander IX directed Spain to colonize the New World with Roman Catholic missions and so Columbus took several Francisian and Dominican priests aboard on his second voyage, and they arrived on the island of Hipanola in 1494. In 1496 the first baptisms of the locals in Hispanola took place, much to the relief of the Vatican.

In 1508 the Francisians begin building missions and converting the indigenious population of modern day Venezuela and in 1510 the Dominicans began building missions in Haiti. It is here that all of the problems actually began. In 1512, the Dominican missionary Antonio de Montesino returned to Spain and, after seeking an audience with King Ferdinand, informed him that the colonists were in fact enslaving the natives, and as such the local populace was being virtually exterminated at an alarming rate.

Imagine, if you will, that you are a Spanish colonist and in your immediate vicinity resides a group of people who are virtually untouchable by the Papal Bull to Spain in 1493, and who will run straight to the King and Queen at the first sign of you mistreating the natives. If you can imagine this, then you are now fairly close to the feelings and sentiments which the colonists must have had towards the missionaries in the New World. A mere two years later, in 1514, Francisian missionaires began converting the peoples of what is now known as California and in 1519 a pair of Francisan missionaries accompanied Hernan Cortes during his conquest of Mexico.

During this time, the Jesuits did not exist and as a point of fact, they recieved permission from the Holy See in 1537 to become a Holy Order. It was not until 1572 that the very first Jesuits arrived in Mexcio to begin their missionary work. The question now is, "What happened to the Francisian and Dominican missionaries which had arrived in the New World and had already established themselves through Christian conversions, missionaries and settlements?" The short answer is "Nothing".

The Francisians and Dominicans welcomed their Jesuit brothers with opened arms and aided them to establish their own missions in the New World and encouraged the Jesuits to continue converting the natives to Christianity. This closeness continued until the expulsion of the Jesuits from the New World in 1767. It is also interesting to note that even though the Society of Jesus was dissolved as a Roman Catholic Holy Order by Papal decree in 1773, the Jesuits remained active in Russia and in Prussia, due to an intercession by Catherine the Great, who forbade the Roman Catholic Church from executing the decree. It is also interesting to note that during this same time period, Jesuits remained active in North America, and in 1789 the Society of Jesus established Georgetown University, the first Roman Catholic university in the USA.

It's also odd to note that the Jesuits seemed to be able to do more as a suppressed Order than the rest of the Catholic Orders were able to do without ever having been suppressed. This in itself is a testament to the political power which they wielded in the halls of the Vatican and the various royal courts of Europe.

And so, what happened in the New World after the Society of Jesus was restored in 1814 and were once more directed to establish themselves in the New World? Again, the short answer to this question would be, "Nothing". The missions which were established by the Jesuits and thereafter taken over by the Francisians and Dominicans remained as they were, and the Jesuits established new missions in their wake.

While we can conclude factually that the Jesuits were by far the largest Christian presence in the New World, they were never the ONLY presence, and as such, there are many chapels and churches which were built by other Holy Orders which were not influenced by the Jesuits. Here, architectual history can be utilized, often to a great deal of accuracy, as the various Holy Orders each had among their numbers, skilled European architects and builders and their individual building styles and methods are plainly present in todays' remaining structures.

Also, the various Holy Orders each had their perferred building style and so, we can very often establish a particular buildings' date and influencial Holy Order merely by examining the structure itself for a short time. This can be particularly useful in areas where there was much missionary activity, and as such, often times the works of the various missionary Orders overlapped.

To close this letter, without having examined the existing structure in question, either physically or from photographic documentation, we can therefore conclude that the structure in question could have quite easily been influenced by the Francisians, or even the Dominicans, as there many Holy Orders which had established missions in the Northwestern part of the New World.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
There is one nagging question which occurs with alarming regularity in regards to the lost treasures of Tayopa and Naranjal. This is the appalling lack of factual documentation supporting the claims. Virtually every shred of evidence can be picked clean and exposed with the most basic and cursory examination. For instance, I read this allegded *mainifest* of the lost treasures of Tayopa and I honestly could not stop laughing. Here it is, in entirety:

Four bells inscribed TAYOPA. ?Weight 727 lbs.

One bell inscribed REMEDIOS. Weight 285 lbs.

One bell inscribed PIEDAD. ?Weight 125 ?lbs.

These bells were cast in 1603 by the Right Rverend Father Ignacio Maria de Retana.

One silver cross with gold crucifix. ?Weight 40 lbs.

Pair of candlesticks and six bars of silver. Weight 113 lbs.

Four incensories of gold and silver. Weight 28 lbs.

One large custody with silver bracket. ?Weight 25 lbs.

Two silver chalices and twelve gold communion plates.

One shrine with four silver columns. Weight 100 lbs.

Sixty-five cargas of silver. ?Weight 14,000 lbs.

Eleven cargas of gold. Weight 2475 lbs.

Casilla ore. ?Weight 4575 lbs.

First-class Castilla ore with a known assay of 22 carats, clean and without mercury. ?Weight 1625 lbs.

In a cut stone box are stored jewels. ?The box is buried in the basement of a room built of stone and mud between the church and the side of the convent and fruit garden."

"A true and positive description of the mining camp Real of our Lady of Guadelupe of Tayopa, made in January 1646 by the Right Reverend Father Guardian Fray, Fransisco Villegas y Orosco, Royal Vicar-General of the Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of St. Ignacio of Tayopa, and Jesuit of the Great Faculty of Sonora and Biscalla, whom may God keep long years.

As a group of dedicated researchers, we can dismiss this document without having to leave our desks. First, we have 4 bells, inscribed Tayopa, which are missing. Hmmmm, I doubt this very much. Bells were never *inscribed* with anything, as inscriptions tend to weaken the casting and over time the bell can very easily crack anywhere along the surface where there may be a flaw. This would include inscriptions. Words, dedications and such were cast into bells and this wasn't commonplace for chapels and cathedrals.

OK, so now we know that these bells were in 1603 by the Right reverend Father Ignacio Maria de Retana I have never once been confused with Albert Einstein, but when in Gods' name did Roman Catholics start placing Anglican religious titles in front of the names of its' priests Right reverend Was dear Fr. Ignacio Maria de Retana a Protestant before converting to Catholism? Or, perhaps he was a Catholic and then converted to Protestanism? This is absolutely hilarious, gentlemen. There is no such animal as a Right Reverend Father! You are either Father Such & Such (Catholic) or the Right Reverend Such & Such (Anglican).

At least we now have some names, even if the actual title is a complete fabrication so now we continue onward from this point. Research into the names of the Retana and Fray turn up nothing. So, unless they were members of the *secret* Jesuit Society, then we can conclude that these names are pure fabrication. Secret Jesuit Society? Sure, they were the ones whom, after expending all of that time, effort and labor digging up all of the gold & silver then thought it was prudent to re-distribute it back into the very ground from which it came, only in completely different locations. That they managed to do all of this without having been seen even once and recorded must be the conspiracy of all time.

Royal Vicar-General of the Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of St. Ignacio of Tayopa, and Jesuit of the Great Faculty of Sonora and Biscalla, whom may God keep long years.

Now we have a title and it is pretty impressive, to say the least. There is only one small problem with it. The Jesuits have never used the name of their patron saint, St. Ignacio for any other place than where he was born, Loyola. His full title is St. Ignacio of Loyola and nothing else. His name is not associated with any other place name, such as Sta. Maria Virgen de Guadalupe. If one were to look closely, then one would see the letter Y between the names Villegas and Orosco. These names were never linked with the Y (It means AND in Spanish) and they were instead linked with either a plain dash as Villagas-Orosco, or else they were simply spelt as Villagas Orosco.

Next, continuing to look at the *title* we see that the Jesuits where granted a title and a very regal sounding one at that! Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of St. Ignacio of Tayopa, and Jesuit of the Great Faculty of Sonora and Biscalla
Unfortunate as it may seem, the Jesuits have always been known simply as the Society of Jesus, and in fact that is all they can be known as, for they have no royal affliations. The *Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of St. Ignacio of Tayopa* sounds like a fraternal organization, the Moose Lodge or something.

Marching on, we come to:
First-class Castilla ore with a known assay of 22 carats, clean and without mercury. ?Weight 1625 lbs.

I should hope the gold was clean and without mercury,since the amalgamation process of gold to mercury was unheard until the 17th century. Mercury was used to amalgam with silver during this time period, my friends.

The accompanying photos show someone standing proudly before a pair of 18th century lime kilns. The limestone blocks are clearly strewn about and the supporting evidence suggests that these kilns did not even come into existence until the 1800s. Dring the 15th and 16th centuries beehive kilns were in use and the *stacked* or *tiered* kilns didn't come into use until much later.

It seems that in order to fill in some of the glaring holes in these undocumented myths, *experts* feel the need to plug some of the gaps in history with their own fabricated documentation. While they are amusing, in the end these *documents* make actual research much more difficult, as there are a great many people who choose to believe these *professionals* and as such, through their years of dedicated searching, tend to make life more difficult for actual researchers. If I were to research the missions in the vicinity of Tayopa, without a doubt the locals would think "Oh Lord, here's another one looking for lost treasure."

This is exactly the same as the researcher who proclaimed to have discovered Paititi. Of course, the reason why it hadn't been discovered sooner is because it's entirely underground, with huge caverns, connected by tunnels. Of course! Why didn't I think of that? Also, seeing as how the Inca nation wasn't in existence for 200 years before the first European set foot in South America, and taking into account that the Incas had not yet progressed to a metal tool stage, how did they manage to cut all of those tunnels in such a short period of time?

The one incontroversial truth about documented evidence is that it stands the "How, when, what, why and where" test, all of the time, every time. One neat little theory is that the Jesuits had a *secret Jesuit Society*. OK, fine. There was a secret society which has remained undetected for over five centuries. This was during a time when a man couldn't perform simple mathmatical calculations, jump in a boat and find his way to India! Columbus was a half of a world off in his calculations, yet during this same time there existed a shadow society, cloaked in secrecy? They were still burning people at the stake for owning a deck of Tarot cards, yet I am to believe that someone would risk the pyre for reasons unknown?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good Mornig Lamar: An excellent letter with much truth, but still full of holes.

First) One must remember that this so called letter that you are quoting is / was a copy of who knows how many other copies. - if such even existed. You are well aware that people do not copy or repeat stories as they actually are unless they are professionally trained.

It is a common trick in Psychology classes to have the students form a line then whisper a statement into the ear of th efirst who in turn then whispers it to the next inline, and so on down the entire line, In the end many times it is not even recognisable even though they are supposedly rrying to repeat it exactly as they had heard it.

So it can easily explain such differences in the actual truth of the various orders etc as described by a layman. Personally, since I have not actually seen the origional letter, I have no idea.

However, remember, this was only one of many pages which were recovered in a chest that had been buried in a mission. I have copies of them which while they may not be correct gramatically, or Hieretically, yet Ihey proved to be the basis of finding ofther very important data.

Second) In a cut stone box are stored jewels.? The box is buried in the basement of a room built of stone and mud between the church and the side of the convent and fruit garden."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This tends to describe the Mission at Guazapares according to a vague report that I received from the Indians.
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third) ."I doubt this very much. Bells were never *inscribed* with anything, as inscriptions tend to weaken the casting and over time the bell can very easily crack anywhere along the surface where there may be a flaw. This would include
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I agree they were not inscribed, but cast into the rim, yes. I have mentioned the alter hand bell with Tayopa cast into the rim, and in the ruins of the mission at Tubares, there are two huge bells hung from a crude support in the entry to the grave yard , They have the names of a woman, and a man, with their names and "In penitence--" dated in the late 1700's and early 1800's. I also found 24 smaller bells in the tower, but they did not have any data in the castings. The huge two opening Batisimal bowl of brass was still there. I agree just a few drops of water symbolizing this is sufficien ,but there they used the bowl.

Incidentally, up at Tayopa, on the mesa, there are the remains of a Cu operation., This was a necesary component for making bells. This area is known by tthe local Indians as "La mesa del Campanero", The mesa of the Bell maker..?
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Fourth) These names were never linked with the Y (It means AND in Spanish) and they were instead linked with either a plain dash as Villagas-Orosco, or else they were simply spelt as Villagas Orosco.
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I agree, however don't forget "DE".
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Fifth) I should hope the gold was clean and without mercury,since the amalgamation process of gold to mercury was unheard until the 17th century. Mercury was used to amalgam with silver during this time period, my friends
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Aren't we talking about the 17 th century in regards to Tayopa
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Sixth) The accompanying photos show someone standing proudly before a pair of 18th century lime kilns. The limestone blocks are clearly strewn about and the supporting evidence suggests that these kilns did not even come into existence until the 1800s. Dring the 15th and 16th centuries beehive kilns were in use and the *stacked* or *tiered* kilns didn't come into use until much later
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If you read that section that you are quoting again , you will see that they are Indian cliff dwellings, and those are not kilns but simply storage bins. this was quite comon . The Yaquis actually built them underground.
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Seventh) how did they manage to cut all of those tunnels in such a short period of time?
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How did the Incas fit huge irrgular stone block structures so closely that you cannot fit a knife blade between the joints? The structures are so strong that they have withstood centuries of violent earth quakes, yet use no mortar?.

A wild bit of specultation, based uopn old documents, might be that having watched a certain type of bird that build their nests in solid Granite by using a certain succulent plant rubbed against the granite, it soon became soft enough to pick out? Perhaps a silicon dissolving property of the ploant which allowed it to find / make a growng spot for itself in the rocky Andies? A natural possible adaption under the circumstances.

FranklyI have no idea on the supposed tunnels.
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Eighth) There was a secret society which has remained undetected for over five centuries. This was during a time when a man couldn't perform simple mathmatical
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?? Clarify there are many documents in the Vatican which are not available to most of the Preist hood or to researchers such as your self, or me. WHY?
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Ninth) It's also odd to note that the Jesuits seemed to be able to do more as a suppressed Order than the rest of the Catholic Orders were able to do without ever having been suppressed. This in itself is a testament to the political power which they wielded in the halls of the Vatican and the various royal courts of Europe
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And just how, may I ask, did they arrive at this poitical etc., power? hmmmm Precious metal of course.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Lamar and all,

Most of the "evidence" points to other orders......and not the Jesuits.

The use of the word "fray" is a shortening of the word fraile........meaning "friar". Jesuits were not friars. "A friar is a member of one of the Mendicant Orders." That would include: Dominicans, Franciscans, Augustinians and Carmelites.....but not Jesuits. Fray is often used interchangeably with the word, brother. The two are often used together.

In short, the list was not created by a Jesuit. It was likely written by someone who was trying, without much knowledge, to create a "treasure hunter's document"..... not that unusual. Fake artifacts are the nature of the beast. Pictures of "Jesuit" treasure come to mind.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[aussco999]

Hey Lamar:

As always, you provide some very interesting and thought provoking reading, but I wanted to point out a conflicting point of view to something you stated in your previous post.

You said;

“Marching on, we come to: First-class Castilla ore with a known assay of 22 carats, clean and without mercury. ?Weight 1625 lbs.

I should hope the gold was clean and without mercury, since the amalgamation process of gold to mercury was unheard until the 17th century. Mercury was used to amalgam with silver during this time period, my friends”.

But, in my copy of Georgius Agricola’s (1556) De re Metallica, (gratefully translated by Herbert and Lou Henry Hoover), referring to a Historical Note on Amalgamation, states that; “The recovery of gold by the use of mercury (quicksilver) possibly dates from Roman times, but the application of the process to silver does not seem to go back prior to the 16th Century”.

There seems to be some confusion wither the Romans actually used mercury to recover gold or silver from ores, but they were aware of the amalgamation process, as were even earlier works of the Greeks described by Theophrastus. Although, Agricola does not mention the use of mercury amalgamation for silver, he did mentioned Biringuccio’s De la Pirotecgnia, written 10 years earlier, describing the Patio Process of silver amalgamation, which pre-dates the Spanish claim (1566) of inventing that process in Mexico.

This info is probably just a minor detail to the ongoing discussions, but I think it helps to keep some the known facts straight.

Keep at it and good luck.

John