True Spelling

John,

The key here, IMHO, is: "First-class Castilla ore" and in particular the word "ore".

While "possibly" means it is possible ;), it leaves a little doubt. You have quoted an "Historical Note on Amalgamation", which are the words of the Hoovers, not Georgius Agricola.....just to make that clear.

I suggest you read farther on in that "note" to find how the information relates to "ores".

Respectfully,

Joe Ribaudo
 

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All,

A good deal of the "factual" evidence and pictures that gets presented here, comes through the opinions and work of a man named Gary Don Oliver. For a better understanding of his views on Jesuit history in the New World, I would highly recommend reading his book, "Enigma At Tumacacori".

In dealing with his own vision of Jesuits in the New World, Oliver seldom lets his feet touch the historical ground of known fact. The smallest amount of historical knowledge is all that is required to realize his Jesuit "facts" are pure fiction.

Oliver's "facts" have been repeated here, as if they had some factual basis. Nothing could be farther from the truth. I don't know what he has at the original location of Father Kino's first contact in the area, but I won't hold my breath waiting for the first ounce of Jesuit treasure from his dig.

His condemnation of Father Kino, as well as of the Society of Jesus, is repugnant to anyone who knows the history of the missions and Mexico. After reading that tripe, his conclusions about any treasure at Tumacacori....or anything else, are highly suspect.

The evidence for Jesuit mining or hoarding treasure is worse than suspect, it is ludicrous.

Just my personal opinion, but it's based on the (real) evidence that's available.

Joe Ribaudo
 

,,, the word is castilla ....

"Meaning #1: a region of central Spain; a former kingdom that comprised most of modern Spain and united with Aragon to form Spain in 1479."

the man that wrote the orignal list did not speak spainish because spain was not spain when the original list was writtern , the orignal was writtern before 1479 ...

the orignal was most likely writtern around the year of 1435 , if the stone tablets were coded and i was right about the 1435 date , guess what ...your wrong and i am right .....


whats wrong cant figer out how the man that wrote this list could be over 300 years old .. . its simple the orignal list was not writtern in the 1700's ,, logic tells us it was in fact writtern in the 1400's as i stated it was months ago ...


he is in fact makeing a possessive statement, because he is from castilla , Spain dose not exist yet, and will not exist untell 1479 ...

the jesuits may have wanted to lay clam to this treasure in the 1700's but they could'nt find it ...lol

he dose not use the word discriptively he is useing the word possessive .....note " Castilla Ore from EL Paramo"

and he in fact dirrectly stated "Castilla" twice ...

what dose this mean , you wanted facts, " the treasure is older then 1479 ..fact "

..
 

Jose,

I don't doubt that you have something, my friend. If it's Jesuit.....fine. If not, may it be an even better treasure.

Take care,

Joe
 

Greetings friends,

Lamar wrote:
If I were to research the missions in the vicinity of Tayopa, without a doubt the locals would think "Oh Lord, here's another one looking for lost treasure."
Click to expand...

It is quite clear as to where you are, my friend.

Cactusjumper wrote:
The evidence for Jesuit mining or hoarding treasure is worse than suspect, it is ludicrous.
Click to expand...

And it is equally apparent as to where you are as well, my friend.

Real de Tayopa wrote:
HOLA : Interesting side light
Click to expand...

Yes interesting, mi amigo, of course everyone KNOWS the SJ could never have been involved in such a matter, either collectively or individually; since no INDIVIDUAL member of the SJ has ever done anything illicit, immoral or illegal, surpassing even the original apostles in individual behavior.

As to the SJ being able to accomplish more, while having been suppressed, one might argue that they were in direct disobedience to the Pope, who ordered the SJ disbanded and this is solid proof that they were clearly not so utterly obedient to rules or laws; or that this is highly suggestive that they were quite capable of working “in secret” but of course we know the SJ, collectively and INDIVIDUALLY were and are beyond the failings of ordinary human beings so are beyond any suspicions. The whole suppressions episode was merely the vicious actions of those evil European monarchies, and entirely “political” in motives. Right? ;) ;D :D

Good luck and good hunting to you all, and yep “oh lord, here goes another one looking for lost treasures”. :o :( :-\

Oroblanco
 

Dear oroblanco;
I beg to differ with your conclusion that:

As to the SJ being able to accomplish more, while having been suppressed, one might argue that they were in direct disobedience to the Pope, who ordered the SJ disbanded and this is solid proof that they were clearly not so utterly obedient to rules or laws; or that this is highly suggestive that they were quite capable of working “in secret” but of course we know the SJ, collectively and INDIVIDUALLY were and are beyond the failings of ordinary human beings so are beyond any suspicions. The whole suppressions episode was merely the vicious actions of those evil European monarchies, and entirely “political” in motives. Right?

The Jesuits were STILL an Order, however, they were a suppressed Order. In France, the Jesuits were given the choice of renouncing the Order and embracing the French Crown as their Supreme Authority. Out of over 4,000 Jesuits, all but 15 were expelled for their refusal. Also, it has been surmised by many that the suppression of the Jesuits was purely politically motivated, as with the passing of the Pope, they would be restored. This is what in fact happened. Therefore, the Papal decree posed no immediate to the Society, therefore the Jesuits continued as before, without any official recognition from the Holy See. The Pope NEVER stated that the Jesuits could not continue with their Holy works, merely that they no longer enjoyed the protection of the Holy See, and as such, they were on their own in regards to local governments. This action in fact, increased the political strengths of the Jesuits instead of reducing them.

?? Clarify??? there are many documents in the Vatican which are not available to most of the Preist hood or to researchers such as your self, or me. WHY?

The Vatican permits public viewing of ALL documents housed within it's archives with two notable exceptions. Documents less than 75 years old cannot be viewed by the public and documents which are housed in the Archivum Secretum Apostolicum Vaticanum, or the Vatican Secret Archives, in English. The Vatican has these secret archives because they are a very old and powerful organization, much like a sovereign entity, except the Holy Roman Catholic Church has outlived all others. As with all sovereign entities, the Vatican has it's secrets, in the same manner as MI-6 and the CIA. If the Vatican did not have the secret archives, then it would not be known as an all-powerful, mysterious organization. So, just in keeping up with apearances, the secret archives serve a distinct purpose.

From my point of view, if you are not a Roman Catholic, then the secret archives do not hold anything which concerns you, and if you are a Roman Catholic, then the rule that the secret archives are to remain off limits to everone should be obeyed without question. Either way, there's no way you, me or anybody else will be allowed to stroll the aisles of the secret archives, so it's best to accept this fact.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

HIO CJ: If we use the old saying --

"it it looks like a Rose, smells like a Rose, and tastes like a Rose then it is probably a Rose".

This is precisely the situation with Tayopa, plus the various reactions of different Jesuits when they heard that I had it.

Side thingie, even the map in Dobies book, "Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver " is 98 % correct -although I had completely discounted it at the start, it was only after I had found Tayopa, that in back checking I found this out..

"No-one publishes a treasure or lost MIne map in a popular book if it is genuine or useable"

This "was" my belief, but now changed.

Incidentally, There were 6 other Bonanza mines associated with Tayopa in the same period, all were lost in the uprising. NONE were officially registered. As I mentioned, I had to prove the existence of one or more in order to have a bit of belief in the legend of Tayopa to commence. I successfully located 4 & then , after a long search, Tayopa.

The entire world can scoff etc., but I have absolute proof that this IS Tayopa, and that the Jesuits WERE mining it, but the time is not right to release my data. It will be in the book, at which time people will say "of course Tayopa exists, and yes, the Jesuits were working it and others, it was obvious all of the time". hmmmmm.".

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Oro,

Good morning.

Let me put it another way. The evidence I have seen for Jesuit treasure at Tumacacori, is weak and more than ludicrous. What I have seen for other locations is weak and often manufactured.

I accept the fact that the Society of Jesus is comprised of men, who by their nature, are weak.....sinful.....prideful....deceitful and capable of doing anything. I tend to admire those who rose far above those faults, and made a difference in this world. Father Kino was such a man. As a group, you would be hard pressed to find so many, who were willing/anxious to put their lives on the line in service to their fellow man.

Father Kino whipped himself on a regular basis. I doubt that is done by a man who believes he is a Saint.
He died owning two shirts, a piece of cowhide and refusing a bed for his last moments, preferring to lay on the floor to rest.....as he always did.

When Father Kino and the Society of Jesus are placed on the scales of good and bad, I believe the scale will move, quickly, to the good side. If you, Jose, Gary Oliver, Mike, Azmula....etc. are going to collectively place your thumb on that scale, it will take more weight than the demonstrably false evidence and stories provided...so far.

My guess is that Azmula may be the first to provide that kind of evidence. Even so, it has taken him years to dig it up. If any of you come with a pile of Franciscan slag to prove your point, and I am still alive, I won't be nodding my head in sheepish approval. If you come with the goods, my applause will be as loud as anyone's.

Is any of that unreasonable?

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo
 

LAMAR mi estimado AMIGO: You posted --->

Out of over 4,000 Jesuits, all but 15 were expelled for their refusal.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

hmm 15 did not follow eh? Interesting no? A bit of vacillating on a solemn oath no?
==============================================================
YOU-->

This action in fact, increased the political strengths of the Jesuits instead of reducing them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Again hmmm. and just how did they accomplish this without funds, enormous funds.??

Also we are now getting into the field of manipulating political policies . As it always has been, and will be for the foreseeable future, politics are based upon power, which literally means money.

SOOO, here is our Society having information on fantastic values being shown to them by the Indians , and now, since delving into politics for the advancement of the Society, they have a genuine need for it, what is more natural than to utilize what can easily be interpreted as the "Will of the Lord"? Naturally it could not be done openly, soo a shadow group would have to be formed. SECRECY would be the name of the game, and so it was done.
==============================================================
YOU-->

As with all sovereign entities, the Vatican has it's secrets, in the same manner as MI-6 and the CIA. If the Vatican did not have the secret archives, then it would not be known as an all-powerful, mysterious organization.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Precisely, and the Jesuits also had / have theirs. Under these conditions how can one logically argue against a shadow group of Jesuits dedicated to the advancement of the society, it would not be against Rome, but simply furthering the advancement of sacred works through the Society.


Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Jose,

[The entire world can scoff etc., but I have absolute proof that this IS Tayopa, and that the Jesuits WERE mining it, but the time is not right to release my data. It will be in the book, at which time people will say "of course Tayopa exists, and yes, the Jesuits were working it and others, it was obvious all of the time". hmmmmm.".]

Your statement has the aura of de-ja-vu....me thinks I have heard those exact words before.......could it have been on this very site???? ;)

You may very well be right, at least I sincerely hope so.

Take care,

Joe
 

CJ: It is not ego, but simple fact. I doubt that through my posts in here that I have come across as an egotist. "Just stating the facts mam".

As for that expresion about the "whole world", I believe that it probably started in the era of Adam and Eve not with BB or myself, but still applies. ..

Review my posts CJ.

wanna a :-*?? hehheeh

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Dear group;
Many people seem to think that the Jeusits have vast resources of hidden wealth, when, in all truth, they do not. They possess something far more valuable than mere riches, my friend. When the Medieval system finally gave way to the Enlightened Age, who were the most prominant among the new emerging breed of scientists, artists, scholars, philosophers and statesmen? The Jesuits, of course!

The Society of Jesus, strictly by chance, and through the beliefs and goals of their founders, became the Roman Catholic Churchs' eternal scholars. That the Society formed at the end of the Middle Ages is purely happenstance, that they became the worlds' scientists and teachers is through the desires of St. Ignacious of Loyola and others. This new breed of nobility embarked upon scholarly pursuits, and even though he was trained as a noble knight, he much perferred the library to the battlefield.

The Society which he later founded was based in the permises of scholarly pursuits and as such, the Jesuits became the teachers of the Holy Roman Catholic Church. The Jesuits actively sought out the brightest young minds to fill their ranks with and, with an everwidening system of universities, schools, and missions, they were soon able to influence people the world over. There was scarcely a part of the world which did not feel the presence of the Jesuit teachers, and through their belief in God and with a singleminded determination to enlighten the rest of the globe, they embarked upon a journey that as yet, is without end.

The same Jesuits, through their University and College system, touched great minds the width and breadth of the world, and these very same minds soon came to be the worlds' greatest thinkers and statesmen. Who in their right mind would betray and then imprison and prosecute their former professors and friends?

No, my friends, the power the Jesuits wield is so much more than political influence or financial wealth. The Jesuits wield the power of KNOWLEDGE.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

HOLA LAMAR: I apparently had better clarify my thoughts on the Jesuits. I have nothing but great respect for them, If anything, Fr Polzer clinched this.

The fact that they were involved in mining certainly does not detract one iota from them. Remember it was the norm for the period, and it's ultimate aim was to further the teachings of Rome and the Society, not personal power as such..
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As I posted before, I originally embarked on the Tayopa campaign for $$ plain and simple. However, as time went by, and as I became more deeply involved in it's history, I found myself slowly shifting over to a point that even if I never receive a cent, I am / have been well paid. To be personally involved in recreating history, living it, is a unique, rare experience not normally allowed to anyone and has been reward enough. However, a bit of money would not be amiss.

And yes, Lamar, a certain bit of ego is allowed, since I have succeeded where hundreds other seekers for over 400 years have not, many losing their lives in the search. This includes the Society itself.

As I have indicated, I am willing to work hand in hand with the Jesuits, if I can be guaranteed ending up as a LIVING equal with them on Tayopa. I am not greedy, but there are the Indians and others to be taken care of, ones whose ancestors actually worked in the Tayopa mines, or gave me valuable clues...

In the mean time I would suggest going to a sister Site to review a number of posts on Tayopa which I have not included in here - TN. - then return here to continue. I warn you there are many.

http://historyhuntersinternational.org/index.php?topic=189.0

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Dear Real de Tayopa;
Here we have a classic example of a lie which I found on that sister site.

In the Year of Our Lord, 1538, Sr. Francisco Vasquez de Coronado penned a document to the Spanish Viceroy Mendoza and wrote, "the natives of Topira {as recorded in early accounts but better known by the name Tayopa} wear gold, emeralds and other precious stones. In covering their houses they make common usage of gold and silver. Their chiefs wear from their necks finely crafted gold chains."

The letter is real enough, however Coronados' description of the jewelry worn by the locals is an utter fabrication. The *emeralds and other precious stones* which he wrote about simply did not exist, except his own mind. There are no native emeralds in Northwestern Mexico, or in any other part of Mexico, nor are there significant deposits of other semi-precious stones.

Coronado was using a classic ploy in order to con Mendoza into providing more men, equipment and horses for Coronados' expeditions. Coronado knew that Mendoza wouldn't fund an expedition if Coronado wrote that the natives were lodged in mud huts and were as poor as church mice, so he took the liberty of "gilding the lily" in roder to fire Mendozas' greed and thus obtain backing for his expeditions.

We see this same theme occurring over and over with alarming frequency, and if one were to believe all of these exaggerations, then the streets of Cuzco and Mexico City would be paved in solid gold. Coronado, Cortez, Pizzarro and all the rest only wanted one thing from the New World officials and that was sufficent resources so they might embark on new conquests.

These documents are so inaccurate they are laughable in their context. The motive for all of these exaggerations and outright lies soon became apparent enough and as such, the tales of natives with vast hordes of riches were soon dropped and replaced with tales of fertile new lands, ripe for establishing farms and ranches. Even these letters were highly embellished at times and they served their respective ends well.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Good evening Lamar: I agree 100%. This is what could be considered as separating the wheat from the chaff. Most were chaff.

This was a major problem with the TAYOPA campaign., perhaps 90 % of the associated data and stories went into the discard pile.

As for your remark --->

The *emeralds and other precious stones* which he wrote about simply did not exist, except his own mind. There are no native emeralds in Northwestern Mexico, or in any other part of Mexico, nor are there significant deposits of other semi-precious stones
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Some one has given you incorrect advice, all occur here but perhaps in lesser quantities, and in most cases of inferior quality. I personally was given a flawless Agua Marine the size of a goose egg, it was beautiful. He thought that it was an emerald, but it was too light in color.

I also have a precious Opal mine within 2 kilometers from my home here in Alamos. Plus we have large quantities of Amethyst. Unfortunately both are in an extremely hard matrix. and so aren't being mined yet.

The Opal has very little Red in it, it is mostly brilliant sheets if iridescent Greens and blue, quite beautiful,

Finally, Rubies are also found here.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

lamar said:
Dear Real de Tayopa;
Here we have a classic example of a lie which I found on that sister site.

In the Year of Our Lord, 1538, Sr. Francisco Vasquez de Coronado penned a document to the Spanish Viceroy Mendoza and wrote, "the natives of Topira {as recorded in early accounts but better known by the name Tayopa} wear gold, emeralds and other precious stones. In covering their houses they make common usage of gold and silver. Their chiefs wear from their necks finely crafted gold chains."

The letter is real enough, however Coronados' description of the jewelry worn by the locals is an utter fabrication. The *emeralds and other precious stones* which he wrote about simply did not exist, except his own mind. There are no native emeralds in Northwestern Mexico, or in any other part of Mexico, nor are there significant deposits of other semi-precious stones.

Coronado was using a classic ploy in order to con Mendoza into providing more men, equipment and horses for Coronados' expeditions. Coronado knew that Mendoza wouldn't fund an expedition if Coronado wrote that the natives were lodged in mud huts and were as poor as church mice, so he took the liberty of "gilding the lily" in roder to fire Mendozas' greed and thus obtain backing for his expeditions.

We see this same theme occurring over and over with alarming frequency, and if one were to believe all of these exaggerations, then the streets of Cuzco and Mexico City would be paved in solid gold. Coronado, Cortez, Pizzarro and all the rest only wanted one thing from the New World officials and that was sufficent resources so they might embark on new conquests.

These documents are so inaccurate they are laughable in their context. The motive for all of these exaggerations and outright lies soon became apparent enough and as such, the tales of natives with vast hordes of riches were soon dropped and replaced with tales of fertile new lands, ripe for establishing farms and ranches. Even these letters were highly embellished at times and they served their respective ends well.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Click to expand...

Lamar,

I have to agree with Realde here. Some of what you write is MOST accurate, but some is not. There is actually an ancient Emerald Mine in the Santa Rosa Mountains (outside of Borrego Springs, Ca.). The mine itself was covered by an old earthquake, but you can still find some small pieces of Emerald (if you know which canyon to hike up to). The mineral Beryl (which is a carrier for Emerald) is also found in this area here and there.

I would also not use Cortez in your rant against the veracity of those letters from the Conquistadores. When Cortez first visited Tenochtitlan in 1519, he noted that many of the buildings were sheathed in gold (IMO Gold Leaf), and many of the inhabitants wore gold jewelry in many forms. If this was not true, why is it then, when Cortez came back in 1521 and defeated the Aztecs, did he have his men spend about six weeks torturing hundreds if not thousands of people to find out where the gold was taken (when he took the city, all the gold he had previously seen was gone). If he was making up the story about all the gold, then why would he spend all that time and energy torturing the locals? Doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Do you also believe that Pizarro was lying? What about all the gold that was given to ransom Atahualpa (before he was summarily murdered)? What about the room full of gold? Was that a lie?

What about the hundreds (if not thousands) of Spanish Ships that sailed from the New World laden with gold, silver, and jewels that financed the Spanish Monarchy in all her wars for 200 years? Was that all a lie.

Sorry Lamar. Do you think the Atocha, the Maravilla, and the Mercedes were isolated? They were but three of about thirteen treasure ships known to have sunk off the coast of Florida. How many galleons laden with treasure made it back home? I'll tell you. The greatest majority of them. The letters from the Conquistadores weren't made up from whacky imaginations. In some cases (like Coronado) it may have been true. It may have been partially true. It may not have been true. Nobody on this forum can say with 100% certainty. We can chose to have our beliefs based on the conclusions we draw from what information we chose to put faith in. All I will say is that I have seen things which will NEVER make it to ANY public forum, that have cemented my beliefs.

Best-Mike
 

Re: True Spelling (LONG WINDED REPLY extra coffee-beer alert)

Greetings friends,

This grew into a VERY long reply, so I beg your indulgence;

Lamar wrote:
Therefore, the Papal decree posed no immediate to the Society, therefore the Jesuits continued as before, without any official recognition from the Holy See. The Pope NEVER stated that the Jesuits could not continue with their Holy works, merely that they no longer enjoyed the protection of the Holy See, and as such, they were on their own in regards to local governments. This action in fact, increased the political strengths of the Jesuits instead of reducing them.
Click to expand...

Do you deny that Pope Benedict XIV ordered the Society of Jesus to be DISBANDED FOREVER? His command on this is hardly equivocal. The fact that the SJ was continuing with their activities (including founding the aforementioned Georgetown MD University, 1789) years AFTER they had been ordered to DISBAND FOREVER by the Pope, to whom they swear an oath of obedience, can only mean that either the Pope was being dishonest/disingenuous, or that the Society of Jesus was being dishonest/disingenuous. Do you also deny that the Pope ordered ALL of the properties of the Society of Jesus to be seized and taken from them?

Lamar wrote:
As with all sovereign entities, the Vatican has it's secrets, in the same manner as MI-6 and the CIA. If the Vatican did not have the secret archives, then it would not be known as an all-powerful, mysterious organization. So, just in keeping up with apearances, the secret archives serve a distinct purpose.
Click to expand...

Your words only serve to prove that the SJ is more likely than NOT to have not only had a very “secret” element, but that it served in functions more like our modern CIA or the KGB. This makes the chances of finding the documentation which you (and Cactusjumper and others) continue to call for as “proof” of Jesuits having had a hand in mining so unlikely as to be nearly impossible. It would be as likely to find documents which showed the CIA involved in the Hungarian uprising of ’56. Actually I think this would be MUCH easier.

Real de Tayopa wrote:
Precisely, and the Jesuits also had / have theirs. Under these conditions how can one logically argue against a shadow group of Jesuits dedicated to the advancement of the society, it would not be against Rome, but simply furthering the advancement of sacred works through the Society.
Click to expand...

Precisely, sire.

Lamar wrote:
Many people seem to think that the Jeusits have vast resources of hidden wealth, when, in all truth, they do not.
Click to expand...

We (public) are so frequently pointed to the Jesuit constitutions and oath of PERSONAL poverty, which in no way precludes the Society from owning all sorts of properties. I have no doubt that nearly ALL of the SJ members were PERSONALLY quite poor, but to claim that the Society of Jesus is equally poverty stricken is, to quote our friend Cactusjumper, “LUDICROUS”. Or are we now going to claim that the Roman Catholic Church is also poverty stricken? I remind you, of the vast number of BEQUESTS to said Society and Church, through the agencies of WILLS. I also remind you of what particular type of DOCUMENTS are so glaringly MISSING from our current archive of Colonial Sonora/Pimeria Alta? Probates, that is the official executions of WILLS. Also MISSING are any great number of property transfers. Are we then to presume, based on the MISSING documents, that there WERE NO PROBATES or property transfers, since we have such a paucity of these documents? This is the style of argument the defenders of the SJ have continually put forward, and is patently false. I would also like to point out, that the only probate we have in our archive is that of Don Gregrorio Álvarez Tuñón y Quirós, a man whom the Jesuits identify as an enemy of the Society of Jesus.

Cactusjumper wrote:
Let me put it another way. The evidence I have seen for Jesuit treasure at Tumacacori, is weak and more than ludicrous. What I have seen for other locations is weak and often manufactured.
Click to expand...

You are making the very error of which you are accusing myself as well as the others who claim the Jesuits were in fact involved, that of MIS-identification. You point out that the mission we see TODAY is the Franciscan version, and there are few legends of any Franciscan ‘treasures’ involved with their mission; the slag piles mentioned as being close to the Tumacacori mission were close to the original Jesuit mission, NOT close to the Franciscan. Often enough, treasure researchers DO make the mistake of assuming anything of “missionary” origins MUST needs be then Jesuit, when in fact a good deal is actually Franciscan. Too many ignore the fact that the Franciscans had entered Arizona much earlier than the Jesuits and had founded some five missions in NE Arizona more than a century ahead of the Jesuits; that there were even complaints made by both the Franciscans and Jesuits of the ‘poaching’ of their ecclesiastical territories by the other Order.

In the modern view of colonial missionaries, in particular the Jesuits, we are given a portrayal of courageous, hard-working and pious men, braving the dangers of the wild frontiers and trying to bring the enlightenment and advantages of Christianity to the heathens. We are NOT often reminded of just how those “heathens” were rounded up to be brought to these wild-frontier missions; for this might cast a slightly different color on our good and gentle SJ padres. The fact of the matter is that in many cases, the Amerindians were rounded up by Spanish soldiers as well as Spanish-allied Amerindians, literally at gunpoint. We find the remarkable successes in baptizing large numbers of heathens in Goa (India) by the Jesuit fathers, but nowhere in their own reports do we find any mention of the Portuguese soldiers who were lined up with their guns aimed at the crowd, clearly demonstrating the alternative to choosing to “convert” to Christianity. How do we suppose native Amerindians viewed the arrival of our Jesuit padres, with armed Spanish soldiers at their sides, herding them onto the missions?

I have no doubt there is virtually nothing of “treasure” in or around the current mission at Tumacacori, and I would discourage anyone from bothering to search there, and not simply because it is illegal – there is no reason to believe there IS anything of value there.

Some of the Jesuit-treasure legends can be readily understood, if we learn some of the facts of the Spanish colonial period. For instance, let me ask you folks, a seemingly UN-related question:

How were the Spanish troops paid?

Would you be shocked to learn that the payrolls for many of the smaller and more remote locations, were handed by the Jesuit padres? Can you imagine any scenario in which this might lead to a treasure-legend? What if I were to also tell you that in the larger, LESS remote settlements, it was often the practice to have the Jesuit padre keep the strongbox holding the municipal treasury, including the payroll for the garrison in his possession? In many cases, the Jesuit padre was given ONE key to one of three locks placed on the strongbox, the Alcalde/mayordomo having another, the garrison commander having the third. The idea being, that no one of them could embezzle the funds since all three had to be present when the strongbox was opened.

For those of limited imagination (not you, mi amigos) let me give an example. It is easy to postulate just how a “Jesuit” treasure story could be engendered, just on the bald facts of how military payrolls were handled. Let us suppose that a Jesuit padre, stationed at some mission, were to suddenly get word of an Amerindian uprising – he holds the payroll money in a strongbox, which is NOT actually “his” money, nor does it belong to the Society of Jesus, but he IS responsible for it. Is it hard to imagine that the padre, in his concern for the safe-keeping of these funds and in such an emergency, might choose to bury them in some secret place, where they could be recovered when the danger has passed? How do we suppose an un-educated Amerindian, happening to be in the vicinity, would view and remember such an activity on the part of the Jesuit padre?

Cactusjumper wrote:
My guess is that Azmula may be the first to provide that kind of evidence. Even so, it has taken him years to dig it up. If any of you come with a pile of Franciscan slag to prove your point, and I am still alive, I won't be nodding my head in sheepish approval. If you come with the goods, my applause will be as loud as anyone's.

Is any of that unreasonable?
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Your prediction re: Azmula may well be correct; it is not my own mission in life to “prove” the Jesuits involvement, beyond our discussion here, perhaps Azmula has taken this as a ‘mission’. Your example of a pile of Franciscan slag is not a good one to make the point, for no one can PROVE the slag found near the Guevavi nor the Tumacacor (original, NOT the later Franciscan) is of Franciscan OR Jesuit origins. No one can prove just who/whom left those slag piles, however in the case of the Guevavi mission, we know that the Franciscans were only occupying the mission for a period of two years, compared with nearly 76 years it was possessed by the Jesuit order. The slag is circumstantial evidence, not incontrovertible evidence. Or are you now saying that the slag is DEFINTELY of Franciscan origins?

Lamar wrote:
In the Year of Our Lord, 1538, Sr. Francisco Vasquez de Coronado penned a document to the Spanish Viceroy Mendoza and wrote, "the natives of Topira {as recorded in early accounts but better known by the name Tayopa} wear gold, emeralds and other precious stones. In covering their houses they make common usage of gold and silver. Their chiefs wear from their necks finely crafted gold chains."
The letter is real enough, however Coronados' description of the jewelry worn by the locals is an utter fabrication. The *emeralds and other precious stones* which he wrote about simply did not exist, except his own mind.
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My friend it appears that you are mistaken on several points here. For one, Topira is not and never was Tayopa, it is a mistake to identify them as one and the same. Topira is located considerably further south in Mexico than Tayopa, and included gemstone mines which have not yet been re-located. Coronado’s report of having seen emeralds should not be the least surprising, since among the treasures recovered from some of the Spanish shipwrecks of the same period are some of the most beautiful emeralds ever seen. How could local Amerindians have had emeralds, when (supposedly) none occur locally? Very simply through trade – trade routes were well established through the Americas long before the arrival of the Europeans; further, rich emerald deposits are known in North Carolina and in Colombia, those in Colombia were discovered by Spanish conquistadores in the colonial period and these are among the richest in the world. Your dismissal of Coronado’s report as a figment of his own mind only shows what could be a personal bias, for Coronado was certainly honest in his reports of everything ELSE he found, even though Cibola turned out to be nothing but a group of poor pueblos. Why should he LIE about having seen the gems, when he told the TRUTH about how poor Cibola really was? This makes no sense to me.

To recap:

*We have shown that the Society of Jesus was to communicate in code for secret purposes, as stated by Jesuit father Polzer;

*We have shown that the Society of Jesus, though supposedly barred from having slaves, did in fact own and sell slaves; (Georgetown MD University study, and remember Georgetown University is a Jesuit college!)

*We have shown that in at least one instance, a Jesuit was in fact working a mine, and using Indians as a labor force, as complained of by a Jesuit padre to his provincial; this person was also gambling, which is also supposedly forbidden;

*We know that several of the earliest American historians attributed several of the silver mines were first discovered by Jesuits;

*We can show that the Society of Jesus was financially successful, as exampled by the capture of a single ship of products that resulted in a loss of 2 million livres, and this led to the expulsion of the SJ from France;

*We can show that some INDIVIDUALS who were members of the Society of Jesus were not above accepting donations of the proceeds of piracy and privateers, nor of performing religious services for pirates/privateers, nor of providing goods in trade to same;

*We can show that the SJ was accused of many illicit and immoral activities by the governments of Spain, Portugal, France, Naples, Russia and others, resulting in their expulsion; these accusations are wholly denied by the SJ today; however it might be helpful to point out that Pope Benedict listed many of the accusations in his brief, suppressing the Society of Jesus and ordering them to DISBAND FOREVER; this command clearly was NOT obeyed and can be proven;

*We can show that the SJ was involved in creating a virtual “state” of their own in what is today Paraguay, training and arming local Amerindians to resist Portuguese slave-raiders, and actively participating in combat in Bolivia against same; these activities were a part of the reason for the SJ being expelled from Portuguese colonial possessions.;

*We can show that a bishop confirmed the accusations of the Jesuits in Paraguay owning "secret" silver mines; these mines have not been rediscovered to this day as far as I know;

*We can show that de Anza, on investigating the reported finding of native silver in masses at Arizonac, first went to see Jesuit padres to learn about silver ores; this would be a ridiculous step to take if the Jesuit padres were NOT knowledgeable of mineral ores and mining as well;

*We know that the Society of Jesus operated Mining Schools in the Americas;

*We know that slag, a by product usually associated with smelting operations, was found near at least two missions founded by Jesuits; this cannot be proven to be absolute proof of Jesuit mining activities, but is supportive of the contention;

Now this set of “points” might not be enough to convince our friends Cactusjumper, Lamar and others, but it is certainly not of a nature to be described as “ludicrous” nor is it so little evidence as to absolve all suspicions.

Based on my own research, of the somewhat more than 200 mines located in pre-US Arizona, I believe only sixteen are Jesuit, at least four are Franciscan, the rest being owned and operated by Spanish, Mexicans, or even Amerindians – oops almost forgot, and one by Frenchmen. This means (in my own calculation) that 90% of Colonial mines, the owners and operators were NOT the Jesuits or any other religious order. This hardly qualifies as some kind of massive SJ conspiracy, but in order to provide for the peoples of their parishes, and to further the aims of the Church, it makes perfect sense for them to have been involved. I do not see this as any kind of “evil” on the part of the Jesuits, in fact quite the reverse.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.

Your friend,
Oroblanco
 

Gentlemen,

Lamar is correct when he states there are no native emeralds form Mexico. He is, however, wrong when he includes all of North America in his claim.

There are many sources for this information. You might try, "History Of Mexico" by Bancroft as one.

Here are a few from the internet:

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Colombia was the only source of emeralds in the Western Hemisphere that was known for certain at the time of the Conquest. Emeralds were traded as far south as Bolivia and as far north as Mexico. It would have been a simple matter for a trader to carry a small emerald from Colombia to Mexico on foot or by boat along the Pacific coast, or it could have been passed from hand to hand.

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Colombia was the only known source of emeralds in the Western Hemisphere during this time period. Emeralds were traded as far south as Bolivia and as far north as Mexico. Possibly a trader carried the emerald from Colombia to Mexico on foot or by boat along the Pacific coast, or it could have been passed from hand to hand. Colombian sources were being mined earlier than 1000 A.D. and polished emeralds found in graves in Panama were dated between 700-900 A.D. It is believed the Muzo source was being mined nearly two millennia earlier. Emeralds occasionally come from secondary deposits, produced by weathering or other decomposition of the emerald-bearing matrix, rather than from mines, but such deposits are rare. One is located at Ganchalá, Colombia, but its trace elements are not as close a match as Muzo's.

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During the Conquest, Pizarro and Cortes sent emeralds from Peru and Mexico, respectively, to the Spanish court. Cortes obtained his emeralds from the Aztec capital of Tenochtitlan. The only source of the stone in the Western Hemisphere known at the time of the Conquest was Colombia. Emeralds reached as far south as Bolivia and as far north as Mexico by trade. It is known that the Colombian sources were being mined by the Chibcha earlier than AD 1000, but how much earlier is unknown.

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Alaman, however, denies that this stone was an emerald, or that any true emeralds were found by the Conquerors in Mexico, notwithstanding the frequent mention of them in contemporary relations. "There are no emeralds," he says, "in our republic; and the stones mistaken for them at the time of the Conquest were jade or serpentine." As an evidence of the ignorance on this subject common in Europe at a former period, he cites the famous instance of the Sacro Catino at Genoa, regarded for ages as an emerald of priceless value, but now proved to be an imitation. ( Disertaciones históricas, tom. i p. 161.) It is certain that no emeralds are now found in any part of North America. Yet the Conquerors would seem to have been more descriminating than Señor Alaman represents them. They distinguished the chalchivitl, supposed to have been jade, from the emerald, and rejected as valueless other green stones prized by the natives. The case of the Sacro Catino does not apply, since it is not pretended that the Mexicans possessed the art of imitating precious stones by means of paste. The fact, therefore, that the emeralds sent and taken to Europe by Cortés were there recognized as genuine affords a presumptive proof in their favour, which has been generally accepted as sufficient by modern writers on the subject.

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You may want to look into this matter a little further.

Take care,

Joe
 

JIO CJ: Once one has seen an emerald there can be no mistaking one for something else or vice versa.. Emerald's have have been found throughout the Americas, wherever there is Beryl present. As I mentioned the Indian gave me a huge perfect Aguamarine, that is a Beryl also.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

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