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Greetings Lamar and everyone,

Lamar wrote:
Please do NOT turn this discussion into a personal attack against me or others. I feel that we are all seekers of the truth, therefore attempting to throw something in someones' face shows a decided lack of good manners, IMVHO. Please, as a personal favor to me, try and keep the subject on course and headed in a bountiful and fruitful direction. Thank you.
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Lamar I had NO intention of making some kind of personal attack upon you, or anyone else. The ONLY reason I posted your comments above, was to explain to our mutual friend Cactusjumper why I had posted one reference to a WRITTEN set of accusations against the Jesuits in another post, which is in NO WAY PROOF OF WRONGDOING but proof that accusations had been made IN WRITING.

That post seems to have raised quite a bit of ire, when no offense had been intended to anyone. I have attempted to be respectful and polite in every post, but if anything I have posted is of offense, my apologies are offered. My sole reason for including such past statements was to show the reason for having posted 'proof' that accusations of wrongdoing were in fact made in writing.

Lamar wrote:
Dear oroblanco;
As yet, there is no positive factual proof that Jesuits or any other religious Order mined gold or silver in the New World with the blessings of both Spain and Rome and until such irrefutable proof comes to light I shall stand by all of my prior statements on the matter that the Jesuits did NOT mine for gold or silver or direct others to do so for the benefit of the Society of Jesus in an illegal manner.
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I refer to you my earlier post, and quote myself,
I have repeatedly stated as clearly as I can put it, that I am NOT saying the Jesuit order practiced mining, but that INDIVIDUALS did.
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from http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,69966.msg896576.html#msg896576


Real de Tayopa, I ask no permission (at the moment ;D ;)) - but have no fear, it is a great distance from where I now reside, and my finances would not allow me to make any sort of surreptitious visit to your discoveries. :( I don't even have a single horse to pack my gear! Besides, unless your eyesight and AIM have grown poor, I am no so good at dodging bullets! :o :'(

Oroblanco
 

Lamar,

I could be wrong, but I believe Catholic Lay Priests are "Clergy". I assume you are aware that there are Catholic women who also hold that title.

What does this statement mean?

"I do not drink much, however there are no set rules against Catholic clergy drinking."

I read that as you talking about yourself.

Take care,

Joe
 

Good evening Lamar mi companero, ever try San Miguel?? The export beer is extremely smooth.

However I must confess to being a paper tiger, I do not drink, only coffee. and pure creek water.

However we can have some serious talks while they are wallowing in the flesh pots.

Don Jose de La Mancha.
 

Hola mi amigo Lamar: You must have had legal training since you make interesting statements which appear to be solid, yet are not. Example->

the Jesuits did NOT mine for gold or silver or direct others to do so for the benefit of the Society of Jesus " in an illegal manner" (separation and " are mine for emphasis)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Since the Jesuits on North America were under a different set of rules than the south American ones, this could be considered as a "get out of jail free" statement.. To a limited extent, officials looked the other way.
==============================================================

You said -->

THERE IS NO FACTUAL PROOF THAT THE JESUITS DID ANYTHING

ILLEGAL, ILLICIT OR IMMORAL WHILE IN THE NEW WORLD
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This statement leaves me curious, human nature hasn't changed except possibly for the better since then. A look at the scandals rocking the various religions today, sex, corruption etc. is interesting.

I would automatically suspect that statement since we are dealing in a period when moral corruption was rampart from the Pope selling Papal indulgences down to the mission priest renting burial space in or near the Church
=============================================================

My encounter with the Jesuit Priest at the gas station hasn't been addressed. He became quite excited when he saw the Tayopa Decal on the side of my truck - same as my avatar her.. He asked "is that true"? "yes", i replied "it is". He then said I am resident in Yecora, when you pass through you have to stay with me, I have the biggest coffee pot in Sonora, we will talk about Tayopa all night long?:.
==============================================================

What about the two young Jesuits that I met near Chinapas? They were in civilian clothes. After a few weeks they apparently gained enough confidence in me to talk. It seems that hey were looking for a closed up mine in the area, but hadn't been able to find it. I represented a sort of last hope for them to complete their mission. They left shortly after, but I have never gone looking for their mine, there i s such a thing as honor.

Remember, I posted that the original factor for looking for Tayopa was the altar hand bell that Yeager had bought just before he died I never had a chance to examine it personally since with the hassle of clearing up his estate and belongings, it went to LA. there I hit a dead end, no-one knew where it ended up. It was established that it had Guadelupe de Tayopa cast on it's rim. .

I can go on for hours on what can be considered circumstantial or factual evidence that Tayopa does exist and that I own it now, and that was a Jesuit operation.. The Guirajiro Indians were the ones that worked it under the Padres according to their legends.

One of their stories, not legends, was that in the late 1800's a solitary Jesuit Priest entered the region of Tayopa looking for something. At that time there were only a couple of Indian ranches in the vicinity. He was climbing on one of the cliffs when he fell to his death. That particular hill is now called the "Hill of the Priest, Cerro del Cura". I know exactly what he was looking for. It is the location of a huge deposit of metal being stockpiled for the takeover plan. It is still untouched and will remain so until the last permit from the Gov't is in my hot sticky hands.

I could also mention the secondary deposit that my firends family were ordered to construct inside of a small hill. When they left, the Jesuits (Black robes) left many bars, documents of rolled up paper, and church ornaments inside.

This gives one an idea of the data that I have. If a reasonable person examines them, he can come to no other conclusion that despite the lack of any written "official documentation",. the Jesuits were mining .and involved in the intrigue thingie.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Dear group;
Once more , without getting into a theological discussion, deacons were not *officially* recognized by the Holy Roman Catholic Church until the Vatican II Council. There were deacons until somewhere around the 6th or 7th century, or maybe the 8th, but it's been so long ago that nobody really remembers. ;D
Anyway, deacons are a relatively new animal in the Church, however, there has always been unofficially recognized deacons going as far as the Crusades.

The armed monastetic Orders had ordained priests among their numbers, but as they took up arms for the Church, most ordained priests shied away from the likes of the Hospitallers of St. John, the Teutonic Order and the Knights of the Temple of Solomon. Therefore there were members of these orders which attended the seminary to completion yet failed to take the vows of priesthood for whatever reason. They became the deacons or the unofficial priests and as such they assumed all of the duties and responsibilities of one whenever there were no ordeained priests available.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

You's are Getting Very Close to Having Posts removed again
and this Time they will be Deleted. Not Moved.
The Subject Treasure Legends > Tayopa

Any Arguments / Complaints will be deleted Twice as fast.
 

Jose,

Are you in the midst of the drug gangs down there? I understand the Guarijio people are being forced into working for them.

Take care,

Joe
 

HOLA CJ:

Yep Tayopa is in a drug raising zone, but the Guarijiro's are not being "forced" to work, any effort on their part is voluntary for Pesos $$$$$. The druggies pay well, they can aford it since the silly American public is feeding them tons of money..

We have excellent relations, they have shown and told me of many interesting points where the Jesuits were working outside of Tayopa itself, building up the take over "fund".

They have a sheepskin, like a piece of parchament, that has a map of the various workings around Tayopa,, including two of the richest Gold Placers in Sonora. It is in two parts, but one may have been destroyed by a hurricane's rain & high water. We are still looking for it in whatever condition it may be.

They have promised to show me the other and allow me to copy it, it is more specific about Tayopa and it's immediate surroundings, but when ???? sniff. Keep it up and no Christmas clothes or presents heheheh.

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Dear Real de Tayopa;
Whilst searching for an online copy of the Benedictine Rule as it pretained to the Monastetic Orders in the 15th, 16th and 17th centuries, I happened to stumble across this article in Wikipedia. Please take all information found online and especially on sites like Wikipedia with the proverbial *grain of salt* as the information contained in them can sometimes be notoriously inaccurate. In this particular instance however, I feel that this particular article in Wikipedia resounds the widely held belief that the jesuits were not expelled from the New world colonies because they were doing anything illegal. Here is an excerpt from the article:

Jesuit missions in Latin America were very controversial in Europe, especially in Spain and Portugal, where they were seen as interfering with the proper colonial enterprises of the royal governments. The Jesuits were often the only force standing between the Native Americans and slavery. Together throughout South America but especially in present-day Brazil and Paraguay they formed Christian Native American city-states, called "reductions" (Spanish Reducciones, Portuguese Reduções). These were societies set up according to an idealized theocratic model. It is partly because the Jesuits protected the natives whom certain Spanish and Portuguese colonizers wanted to enslave that the Society of Jesus was suppressed.

And the link to the webpage containing the article in it's entirety made be found here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Society_of_Jesus

I hope this helps to find what you are searching for.
Sincerely;
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Buenas Tardes mi amgo Lamar: I agree on both points, to an extent.

A ) Wickedpedia is as you said, Notorious for partial truth. they themselves post this.

B) There are records of the Jesuits having slaves, but in general, I agree with you. In actuality they had a firmer control over the Native populations under Religion, than they would have had under pure slavery conditions

As you well know, one is more firmly bound by his religious convictions than by any man made law.. He will rise up in arms against taxation but meekly submit his Tithe. +

I might ask you "Why was a simultaneous arrest order necessary for a simple expulsion order"?

Could it be that the Crown wanted to possibly prevent a core of them starting a revolt when they heard of a normal progressive arrest ?

In actuality the Normal Jesuit wasn't privy to the intrigue, so it wouldn't have made any difference, but the Crown didn't know this , so it acted in the normal manner of nipping a revolt in the bud, arrest all suspects simultaneously..

Sigh it is an extremely fascinating part of history, on one hand a group of dedicated individuals for the good of the population, on the other, a group dedicated to furthering the Society's advancement and power, yet the two never had contact with each other..

I believe that Senor SOLOMON in History Hunters had the experience of having a young man befriending and recruiting future leaders of England to various causes, while in Cambridge (?) only later to learn that he was a young Jesuit sent to the school precisely for this reason. They are very far sighted , and are still playing games..

Incidentally, it was noted that he did not date any of the girls or attend any of their frat parties that involved drinking or gals. in fact it was suspicioned that he might be a bit err ah ------------- !.

Don Jose de La Mancha

P.S. I do have Tayopa. regardless.
 

Jose,

Trying to understand what motivated the Indians to work for the Jesuits is a pretty tough situation. On the one hand, people argue that the reason the Indians revolted was because they were tired of being enslaved for working in the mines. On the other, you think they worked because they loved the religion.

Like many things in life, I believe we try to make something difficult out of a simple problem. Time and again, history tells us that the usual catalyst for Indian and European conflict was........food. As long as the Spanish/Mexicans/U.S. gave them food, they were peaceful. If the food got scarce, they rebelled.

Many times, the natives would leave the mission fields and go to work in the mines. :o That was a problem for the Jesuits, because they were trying to feed everyone and put food aside for the bad times.
Because of the Jesuits, the miners were forced to pay the indians for their work.

Which Jesuit priest do you believe first started working the Indians in Tayopa. What tribe was used? When did they first open the mine?

Thanks,

Joe
 

Jose, would you say that a spelling of "TOAPA" would be referring to TAYOPA? Thank you in advance,
your friend,
Oroblanco
 

Greetings Blindbowman,

A very merry Christmas to you and yours as well, (and to everyone here) but I have to ask a question. You had posted this:

i took the bit . i may be out $37,000 but i know where the DLM is ..and its thrid site on my list lol ...
just about bankrupted my self for what . some treasure i could care less about ....lol . but i will prove i am right ..here is to AZtlan ...
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at 08:07:16 PM then at 08:26:52 PM changed the post to:

mary x's and to all a good night ..
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Why did you choose to remove your earlier post? I don't see anything that should offend anyone in it, nor any clue or information that someone else might use - did you simply change your mind?

I hope that you have not hurt your finances TOO much in outfitting your expedition, but do keep in mind that if you should later sell a book with your experiences and discoveries, the income from that should help defray your current expenses. That is, assuming you should choose to write up such a book, and then publish it.

Whoops! Now your post reads:
you guys have a good one latter ...
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(8:32 pm)

What is going on? ???

Just curious as to why you decided to remove that earlier post, thank you in advance...

your friend,
Oroblanco
 

Real de Tayopa said:
I might ask you "Why was a simultaneous arrest order necessary for a simple expulsion order"?

Could it be that the Crown wanted to possibly prevent a core of them starting a revolt when they heard of a normal progressive arrest ?
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Lamar, Joe, or anyone else,

Jose has brought up my ABSOLUTE MAIN argument for my belief in Jesuit Mining! WHY was a secret simultaneous arrest warrant necessary for a simple expulsion? This is a point I have argued for many years, and have not gotten a good answer as of yet.

1. They were not being Killed (no need to secrecy)
2. They were not being tortured (no need for secrecy)
3. They were simply being sent back to Europe. Why the secrecy? The only sane reason I can imagine is that Charles III wanted to catch them "with their pants down" (before they had a chance to do something). What something would that be? Before they had a chance to hide their mining activity.

Best-Mike
 

Oro - BB seems to change his mind on a very frequent basis. Without looking back at a large sampling of his posts, I would estimate > 50% have been edited and probably a much higher % than that.

What he doesn't understand (or care about possibly) is that his edits make it EXTREMELY difficult to get into any serious discussions with him.

I'm still of the opinion that as wild and speculative as his theories are, they're ultimately no better or worse than anyone else's theories until they are proven or disproven. Hopefully he'll have something interesting to show everyone after his next "adventure" into the area.
 

well stated , both of you . Oro have you ever had a lot to do and some much you just dont have enough hours in the dy to do them . ,picture this . your just about ready to go into a store to get your wife her xmas gift . as you put your car keys in your pocket and pull your hand out a penny falls on the ground and rolls a few ft away . do you stop doing what you were doing and go over and pic that penny up its your why not . most could care less now days about a penny , thats why i delite my post . my subconscious well not let me walk away if it feels that penny well not mean something to those that watch , often i speak in code and none of you even know or under stand that ,so i pic the pennies up ... they are a reflects ofthe mind ,and most likely will lay there for many many years before anyone ever under stands what there true meaning is ....

Oro ,you may have a chance to under if you keep and open mind about what i do and say ..

i order more equipment each week and my bill for this expedition is not a joke at all ...i will not go out there with out the right gear and i do know what it will take to recover the evidence need for those permits, to clam anything out there with out the permits means nothing to me ..

i stated i beleive i have found AZtlan .. i know for a fact ,it is there , this is allabout evidence ,not finding AZtlan or montezuma's treasure .or the LDM . i stated the LDM was 3rd this is why ...i do "out right have evidence i have found Aztlan " but is it enough evidence to prove it without a dout , many have tryed and fallen short ,but i am not let my self be part of many ......


you have no idea how far i have gone to find this evidence ...

to find AZtlan would be over the top , but if there is even one pece of anything from Atlantis there it would be a histroyical gold rush like the earth has never seen before ...

is the temple mont treasure out there who knows if there is any treasure out there . it may be all a mater of what you beleive treasure is .....if found the temple mont treasure and it had all rotted away threw the years and all the scolls were moldy and rotten and i could only find one word written by christ it would be worth everything i have done till now .. what dose a touchnull do with something christ once touched ...? would get to meet christ .is that not worth more then any treasure ever could be . to me it is .....

my faith is within me and i care for every day of my life till i am free ogf this human reality and pass into the next beyond where i will never forget what i have done or know why i did what i did ....


my tracks vanish as i go and other times i stop and talk to you yet few under stand and few care ....a time will come when those that did not care will wish they had . and those that dont under stand but still try will uder stand in time ...

"finding something is not the same as proveing what it is"
 

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