Things weve learned from Legends of the Supes - and questions for the team

Hal I search out facts. There are few to none about the ldm and stuff that branches off from the ldm.

Try finding anything about peralta mines or a peralta massacre in AZ from credible sources. I found books/logs of injuries at mines. A rock stubbed someone's toe at abc mine. A whole book of injuries at mines but nothing about a peralta mine or a massacre.

What do believers base their belief on?

Oh, the pics/maps that I posted... Didn't you ask where the dam was located? They were what I found when I searched. I didn't know that I should explain every little detail?
 

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Chlsbrns, I have had at least 2 of the maps you also have, I cant find them or remember where I got them,but thanks for posting those 2.- What you say about the dead Peraltas is true, where are the bones buried.? Its possible a Indian tribe may have more imformation on that subject,but most likely wont reveal,part of their tribal secrets.
 

chlsbrns said:
Hal I search out facts. There are few to none about the ldm and stuff that branches off from the ldm.

Try finding anything about peralta mines or a peralta massacre in AZ from credible sources. I found books/logs of injuries at mines. A rock stubbed someone's toe at abc mine. A whole book of injuries at mines but nothing about a peralta mine or a massacre.

What do believers base their belief on?
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I have never seen hard proof that the Peralta's had mines in the Superstitions and the massacre story could easily have been about Mormon settlers. At least they are known to have been in the SWA and their search for gold is well documented (elsewhere). Add in a few twist and turns by a creative writer (one of them a Don) and its an impossible story to declare true or false.
If you believe in the story, there should be no trace of mining or human remains because those things were dumped into the mine shafts which were then sealed over by the Apache.

To your point...
Even in 1847 it would have been impossible to organize a large expedition into the SWA without leaving behind some type of record. Supplies had to be purchased, live stock, draft animals, carts, tools, food. Where are the records? Were are the reports (diarys) of missing loved ones? As far as I can tell, there is no proof. That doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means that there is more important research to be done.

And if you want to get specific, I would think that the Pima elders may have something to say about gold, the Superstitions and Mormonism.
 

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Several years ago Bob Schoose hosted a number of Peralta family members from Mexico at one of the Rendezvous and he and they spoke for awhile. They gave a little family history passed down over the years that they feel links them to the Massacre as well as the legends of mining. I don't remember there being anything other than oral family history presented, and there was much they were not comfortable sharing in a large group setting, but I have no reason to doubt their stories.

Some facts can be fully substantiated by documents and official records, but some resides only in oral family history.
 

Paul,

It was Linda Peralta, as I recall. I picked up Bob's book and got his signature and hers, so I can check it out.

Take care,

Joe
 

Cubfan64 said:
Several years ago Bob Schoose hosted a number of Peralta family members from Mexico at one of the Rendezvous and he and they spoke for awhile. They gave a little family history passed down over the years that they feel links them to the Massacre as well as the legends of mining. I don't remember there being anything other than oral family history presented, and there was much they were not comfortable sharing in a large group setting, but I have no reason to doubt their stories.

Some facts can be fully substantiated by documents and official records, but some resides only in oral family history.
Click to expand...

"That they feel" isnt any different than "they think" or "they believe". It doesnt really prove anything and is hearsay.

Bob Schoose who owns mammoth mine thats now a tourist attraction? I couldn't find a book by him but I did find that he wrote one chapter, the last chapter of a re-released book.
 

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chlsbrns said:
"That they feel" isnt any different than "they think" or "they believe". It doesnt really prove anything and is hearsay.

Bob Schoose who owns mammoth mine thats now a tourist attraction? I couldn't find a book by him but I did find that he wrote one chapter of a re-released book.
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*sigh* and yet your "hard facts" include a phone conversation with someone you found in the phone book who claims to be a descendent of Waltz who tells you the mine is filled with water under a lake and that's not "hearsay?" Of course if it fits your theories...

I'm sure you have a reason for posting here, and clearly you want to educate us, but you seem to hold many of our comments up to a different standard than your own. Very confusing logic.

For the record all I was suggesting is that there is evidence of a link between a Peralta family of Mexico and a massacre and mining in AZ - I haven't seen the documentation (if it exists), but I'm certainly not going to discount several members of a Peralta family from Mexico with the wave of a hand because everything they say is "hearsay."

I'm sure there are events in your life as there are in mine and everyone else that have gone undocumented and that you couldn't prove if you had to - yet they factually happened and you may have family members or friends who would go on the record to state they happened.

It's the same thing here and yet you seem so intent on completely tossing out any of that information when someone else presents it as part of the evidence they are using to back up a belief they have - yet you post numerous statements as "fact" that are nothing more than the same hearsay?


I get the impression that your purpose here is to simply be contrary to everyone and everything that doesn't agree with your notions for the sake of starting arguments and just being difficult. Nothing wrong with that, but at least come out and state that so we know where you're coming from :)
 

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I never said that I could prove what I was told.

Im not here to educate believers. Obviously they ignore anything factual. They only believe I thinks, I believes and hearsay. Im here so that those considering actually hunting a fairy tale will reconsider as this hunt could kill them!

What do you think about the 1898 article by the Archeological Institute of America about a lost mine near a dump and a dam? Seven years after waltz's death.
 

Cubfan64 said:
*sigh* and yet your "hard facts" include a phone conversation with someone you found in the phone book who claims to be a descendent of Waltz who tells you the mine is filled with water under a lake and that's not "hearsay?" Of course if it fits your theories...

I'm sure you have a reason for posting here, and clearly you want to educate us, but you seem to hold many of our comments up to a different standard than your own. Very confusing logic.

For the record all I was suggesting is that there is evidence of a link between a Peralta family of Mexico and a massacre and mining in AZ - I haven't seen the documentation (if it exists), but I'm certainly not going to discount several members of a Peralta family from Mexico with the wave of a hand because everything they say is "hearsay."

I'm sure there are events in your life as there are in mine and everyone else that have gone undocumented and that you couldn't prove if you had to - yet they factually happened and you may have family members or friends who would go on the record to state they happened.

It's the same thing here and yet you seem so intent on completely tossing out any of that information when someone else presents it as part of the evidence they are using to back up a belief they have - yet you post numerous statements as "fact" that are nothing more than the same hearsay?


I get the impression that your purpose here is to simply be contrary to everyone and everything that doesn't agree with your notions for the sake of starting arguments and just being difficult. Nothing wrong with that, but at least come out and state that so we know where you're coming from :)
Click to expand...

Cubfan64 said:
Some facts can be fully substantiated by documents and official records, but some resides only in oral family history.
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First you said fact then evidence and hearsay. Now you are implying that peraltas said that to you? Or is it that someome else told you that the peraltas told them?

What I was told is also hearsay. I specifically stated that I could not prove what I was told.
 

chlsbrns said:
First you said fact then evidence and hearsay. Now you are implying that peraltas said that to you? Or is it that someome else told you that the peraltas told them?

What I was told is also hearsay. I specifically stated that I could not prove what I was told.
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There were members of the Peralta family at the Rendezvous who gave a talk about their family history as it relates to the massacre and mining in AZ.

As to your comments about Waltz's descendent and how hearsay becomes fact when it fits your theories...

Capture.JPG
 

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I would really like to see any fact about the ldm. Something verifiable.
 

Cubfan64 said:
There were members of the Peralta family at the Rendezvous who gave a talk about their family history as it relates to the massacre and mining in AZ.

As to your comments about Waltz's descendent, this is what I'm referring to...

View attachment 1130240
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What I asked is if you were told by the peraltas or did someone else tell you that the peraltas told them. You are avoiding answering that question?

Yes I spoke to him. What I was told is hearsay. Im missing your point?
 

chlsbrns said:
What I asked is if you were told by the peraltas or did someone else tell you that the peraltas told them. You are avoiding answering that question?

Yes I spoke to him. What I was told is hearsay. Im missing your point?
Click to expand...

:BangHead:

Sorry, I just can't answer your question any more clearly than I did except maybe to show a photograph of me sitting in the audience listening to the members of the Peralta family give a talk.

As far as you missing my point - I also can't make it any clearer than a copy of what you stated as a fact.

Best of luck to you - life is too short to waste arguing :). best of luck to you.
 

Cubfan64 said:
:BangHead:

Sorry, I just can't answer your question any more clearly than I did except maybe to show a photograph of me sitting in the audience listening to the members of the Peralta family give a talk.

As far as you missing my point - I also can't make it any clearer than a copy of what you stated as a fact.

Best of luck to you - life is too short to waste arguing :). best of luck to you.
Click to expand...

Who arguing?

Cubfan64 said:
Several years ago Bob Schoose hosted a number of Peralta family members from Mexico at one of the Rendezvous and he and they spoke for awhile.
Click to expand...

He and they spoke or the peraltas spoke to all?

Your constant talking from both sides of your mouth confuses me.

What I posted about calling is a fact to me and hearsay to everyone else. It holds as much weight as what is claimed was said by the peraltas.
 

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cactusjumper said:
chisbrns,

People have been searching for Jacob Waltz's gold source (LDM?) since he died......Fact.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo
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Jacob Waltz's gold source? There is no proof that the farmer had any gold. Thats a fact!
 

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