Things weve learned from Legends of the Supes - and questions for the team

[pkdmslf]

What route would the Salt River have been in the 1880's - 1890's?

There were no lakes or dams until after 1911 (Salt River lakes and dams).

 

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[somehiker]

No difference. Older maps show the same route.
The river follows the deepest canyon(s) through the range.
There has been no change in that for millions of years, since the last caldera eruptions about 15 Ma.

[FONT=&quot]Sheridan, M. F., 1978, The Superstition Cauldron Complex in Guidebook to the Geology of Central Arizona: Arizona Bureau of Geology and Mineral Technology, Special Paper 2[/FONT]

 

[chlsbrns]

What route would the Salt River have been in the 1880's - 1890's?

There were no lakes or dams until after 1911 (Salt River lakes and dams).

The first dam was built in the early 1880's. Thats a fact!

I posted an 1898 article by the Archeological Institute of America about a lost mine near a dump and a dam at:

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...gend-even-experts-guessing-2.html#post4428749

The article must surely be about waltz's mine. Near a dam and a dump. I seriously doubt that any ldm book or article says anything about a dump or dam. Why would they? The books have zero credible or verifiable info beyond the flood.

 

[motel6.5]

Somehiker is correct ,nevertheless,if a metal detector in use underwater detects Gold, and you corralate a straight line
to land , and drill some holes on this approx line,then drop in another detector, you might just find a cave extension.
That is of course if you can obtain the proper govt. permits.

 

[pkdmslf]

The first dam was built in the early 1880's. Thats a fact!

I posted about a lost mine near a dump and a dam at: http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...gend-even-experts-guessing-2.html#post4428749

Damn! According to the article in my earlier post There was a lost mine in 1887 before waltz died! Waltz must have found the lost mine!

I also posted earlier that waltz had a mine with an underwater entrance.

This is the first and only time I've ever heard of an underwater mine attributed to Jacob Waltz. I'm not biting. As for dams, I would think the more 'modern' dams would have had a larger impact regarding what 'may' have been covered. Not a fact but a possibility.

 

[chlsbrns]

This is the first and only time I've ever heard of an underwater mine attributed to Jacob Waltz. I'm not biting. As for dams, I would think the more 'modern' dams would have had a larger impact regarding what 'may' have been covered. Not a fact but a possibility.

Of course the newer dams have a larger impact. Saguaro lake is over 100' deep. The 1880's dam raised the water level to about 50'. Either could and did hide the entrance.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

What do you mean?

Well... you said "a .44 pistol " -- "pistol" refers to a handgun having one chamber integral with the barrel, making pistols distinct from the other main type of handgun, the revolver, which has a revolving cylinder containing multiple chambers. ( <-- stolen)

We do have wonderful .44 (mag) pistols today, like the grizzly and others. Back then?

 

[chlsbrns]

Might be some.
But if Waltz's mine had been that close to the Salt River, I think he would have said so....to somebody.
Esp. Julia, Rhiney, or Dick Holmes.
It would have been high on the list of landmarks and clues IMO.


Everything under the present lake level is covered in two-three feet of mud.
How would you find the "funnel shaped pit", especially if it had been covered up, or a drift/tunnel which was described as a "rat hole".
These old mines were not walk in or stand up holes......they were tight.
Three feet of mud would easily cover any entrance to such a mine.

It seems that the locals didnt get their info from julia, rhiney or holmes. That is unless julia, riney and holmes said the mine was near the dam and dump.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...gend-even-experts-guessing-2.html#post4428749

It appears that back in the day the locals thought the area of the dump and dam were high on the list of landmarks and clues. If they only had the books that we have now they would have known better.

 

[Old]

Of course the newer dams have a larger impact. Saguaro lake is over 100' deep. The 1880's dam raised the water level to about 50'. Either could and did hide the entrance.

My research indicates your 1880 dam theory doesn't hold water. Pardon the pun. 1880 is far too early an event to have covered the LDM. Possibly a different mine but not Jacob's mine.

A cursory review of date of Julia and Emil's relocation to the Phoenix area, their operation of the oyster and ice cream parlor, their separation which resulted in Jacob having to fund Julia's debts all indicate roughly a decade's difference in time. When Julia questioned Jacob about the wisdom of his "gift" he told her there was lots more where that came from. Don't think he would have made that statement if the "lots more" was 50' under water.

 

[Hal Croves]

My research indicates your 1880 dam theory doesn't hold water. Pardon the pun. 1880 is far too early an event to have covered the LDM. Possibly a different mine but not Jacob's mine.

A cursory review of date of Julia and Emil's relocation to the Phoenix area, their operation of the oyster and ice cream parlor, their separation which resulted in Jacob having to fund Julia's debts all indicate roughly a decade's difference in time. When Julia questioned Jacob about the wisdom of his "gift" he told her there was lots more where that came from. Don't think he would have made that statement if the "lots more" was 50' under water.

Wow, only your fourth post? Respectful, well written and correct... All the ingredients for a great post.

 

[chlsbrns]

My research indicates your 1880 dam theory doesn't hold water. Pardon the pun. 1880 is far too early an event to have covered the LDM. Possibly a different mine but not Jacob's mine.

A cursory review of date of Julia and Emil's relocation to the Phoenix area, their operation of the oyster and ice cream parlor, their separation which resulted in Jacob having to fund Julia's debts all indicate roughly a decade's difference in time. When Julia questioned Jacob about the wisdom of his "gift" he told her there was lots more where that came from. Don't think he would have made that statement if the "lots more" was 50' under water.

I didnt say 1880 I said 1880's.

My research found that the entrance was submerged before the dam was built. The original dam washed away allowing the opportunity to access again until the dam was rebuilt.

Your research about julia, emil, ice cream, oysters and funding came from a ldm book?

I get the giggles when people post "waltz said" or "so and so told so and so". It amazes me that people believe those kind of hear say statements in books that are written decades to over a century later.

 

[chlsbrns]

Arizona Canal (1883)
The Arizona Canal was begun in May 1883 by the Arizona Canal Company, which was formed in December 1882.
The original heading was the old Arizona Dam, located on the Salt River about one mile below the mouth of the Verde River. That dam was destroyed in a spring flood in 1886. A stronger Arizona Dam was rebuilt by January 1887.
This second Arizona Dam was the only pioneer diversion dam that survived the big flood of February 1891. At that time, water flowed down the river at an estimated 291,000 cubic feet per second. The dam had been rebuilt with rock-filled wooden cribs from 32 train carloads of Oregon pine lumber, and while it was not destroyed, it did sustain damage.

SRP: Canal history

 

[Hal Croves]

Arizona Canal (1883)
The Arizona Canal was begun in May 1883 by the Arizona Canal Company, which was formed in December 1882.
The original heading was the old Arizona Dam, located on the Salt River about one mile below the mouth of the Verde River. That dam was destroyed in a spring flood in 1886. A stronger Arizona Dam was rebuilt by January 1887.
This second Arizona Dam was the only pioneer diversion dam that survived the big flood of February 1891. At that time, water flowed down the river at an estimated 291,000 cubic feet per second. The dam had been rebuilt with rock-filled wooden cribs from 32 train carloads of Oregon pine lumber, and while it was not destroyed, it did sustain damage.

SRP: Canal history

Find out the spill height of your 1883 & 1887 dam.
Find its exact location (one mile south of the Verde?) and elevation.
It's doubtfully that a wooden dam one mile south of the Verde would have raised the river much. Any topo will confirm this.

Now, there may be something under Canyon lake....

 

[pkdmslf]

Arizona Canal (1883)
The Arizona Canal was begun in May 1883 by the Arizona Canal Company, which was formed in December 1882.
The original heading was the old Arizona Dam, located on the Salt River about one mile below the mouth of the Verde River. That dam was destroyed in a spring flood in 1886. A stronger Arizona Dam was rebuilt by January 1887.
This second Arizona Dam was the only pioneer diversion dam that survived the big flood of February 1891. At that time, water flowed down the river at an estimated 291,000 cubic feet per second. The dam had been rebuilt with rock-filled wooden cribs from 32 train carloads of Oregon pine lumber, and while it was not destroyed, it did sustain damage.

SRP: Canal history

There's a big difference between a diversion dam for a canal system and dams that create resevoirs.

 

[chlsbrns]

Find out the spill height of your 1883 & 1887 dam.
Find its exact location (one mile south of the Verde?) and elevation.
It's doubtfully that a wooden dam one mile south of the Verde would have raised the river much. Any topo will confirm this.

Now, there may be something under Canyon lake....

Gezzzz Hal you really like to put me to work don't you? Do you think that I would claim a depth? A "I think" it was 50' deep? I already found the documentation on the construction of the dams and canals. Don't ask me why I even looked for the info or why I didn't post the info. You should know that answer by now.

 

[chlsbrns]

I said 50' deep I dont think I said raised 50'. It was already 35' if my memory serves me.

https://books.google.com/books?id=p...qDllcQ&edge=0&edge=stretch&ci=60,176,929,1331

 

[Hal Croves]

Gezzzz Hal you really like to put me to work don't you? Do you think that I would claim a depth? A "I think" it was 50' deep? I already found the documentation on the construction of the dams and canals. Don't ask me why I even looked for the info or why I didn't post the info. You should know that answer by now.

Yes, I am a pest. "Like vinegar in my urine" my grandfather would say.
I am just happy that you are doing the research.
Anything that you post online is subject to review and criticism if inaccurate. That's the bloody point. You need to learn to appreciate and hopefully respect the people that challenge your ideas. Or not if that's your nature.

Your ideas are as valid as the next but don't expect anyone to swallow it un-chewed. Those who do tend to be the emotional types. Personally, I have never been impressed by gold or the wealth it brings. Yellow rocks that fools worship is how I see it.

 

[chlsbrns]

Yes, I am a pest. "Like vinegar in my urine" my grandfather would say.
I am just happy that you are doing the research.
Anything that you post online is subject to review and criticism if inaccurate. That's the bloody point. You need to learn to appreciate and hopefully respect the people that challenge your ideas. Or not if that's your nature.

Your ideas are as valid as the next but don't expect anyone to swallow it un-chewed. Those who do tend to be the emotional types. Personally, I have never been impressed by gold or the wealth it brings. Yellow rocks that fools worship is how I see it.

Hal, everything that I post is subject to criticism and I am certainly criticized for posting verifiable info. Few to none want verifiable they all seem to hang on so and so said hearsay that they read in ldm books.

Review? I don't see much review. I posted a jesuit map that showed jesuit trails. I dont think anyone reviewed or noticed the trails. I posted the land grant map. There was a distinct heart on the map. If anyone reviewed the map and noticed the heart they didn't comment on it.

Inaccuracies? Show me a ldm book that isn't more than 50% inaccurate. The majority sure swallow the books unchewed.

It sickens me to think of the number of people who died searching for a fantasy based on unverifiable crap thats printed in ldm books. If any of the authors believed their own crap they would have searched for what they write about.

 

[chlsbrns]

......

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal, everything that I post is subject to criticism and I am certainly criticized for posting verifiable info. Few to none want verifiable they all seem to hang on so and so said hearsay that they read in ldm books.

Review? I don't see much review. I posted a jesuit map that showed jesuit trails. I dont think anyone reviewed or noticed the trails. I posted the land grant map. There was a distinct heart on the map. If anyone reviewed the map and noticed the heart they didn't comment on it.

Inaccuracies? Show me a ldm book that isn't more than 50% inaccurate. The majority sure swallow the books unchewed.

It sickens me to think of the number of people who died searching for a fantasy based on unverifiable crap thats printed in ldm books. If any of the authors believed their own crap they would have searched for what they write about.

Several have. You must know that.

You can't expect intelligent review if you respond with insults. And posting maps/info without an explanation of what you want us to consider is pointless. There is a lot of info on TNet to absorb and your ideas are one among hundreds.

It took awhile but I learned that my ideas were not above logical criticism. It makes you go back and rethink the approach. After all, the goal here is to be understood and to understand. You are having a difficult go at both.