The True Story of Victorio Peak

[gollum]

Finding Swanner's name on the wall with a 1961 date, if he himself even put it there, should not be surprising. Fiege and Berlette claimed to have discovered about 100 bars in an open cave at the base of Victorio Peak in 1958. In 1961, Swanner became a partner in a private business partnership with Fiege and Berlette. They were attempting to recover alleged gold bars that they claimed were hidden behind a cave-in they caused in their 1958 cave site to secure "thousands of more gold bars." When their feet were held to the fire, the group was unable to locate the alleged cave-in site. The Army later began searching for it.

The 100-bar Fiege and Berlette discovery is the subject of the polygraph test that you supplied "results" for on another thread. Most experts have serious doubts about polygraph results, but they are generally given about 50% reliability if administered properly. I note that the copy you provided is neither signed nor certified with document entry stamps. I will ignore these problems for the sake of your argument.

In my judgement, when Fiege and Berlette recovered the 100 bars in 1958, they were very likely Caballo bars previously hidden by Noss sometime prior to his death for the purpose of salting his scam later. This was a scheme to protect the location of his Caballo discovery, the true source of the gold. Swanner apparently wasn't present at the peak in 1958, but may well have conspired in a separate scam with Fiege and Berlette in 1961, basing their false claims of "thousands of gold bars" on Noss's earlier lies. Of course, since there were no more bars in the peak, the claimants were not able to find their hidden entrance. As can be seen by the aerial photos, the Army and others searched high and low for it too. Other than "affidavits", there is no evidence the gold was ever there. Whatever the 1961 group's strategy was for a personal payoff, it never came to fruition.

sdcfia,

Well, you are entirely entitled to your judgement, but both Fiege and Berlette passed a polygraph stating that they did not remove any of the bars they found. In fact, that was the express purpose for the polygraph test. Once they had convinced their commander they had actually found something, they were both charged with removing bars from VP. The polygraph test resulted in the charges not being officially filed against them. It was three years between the time they reported the find to their chain of command (1958), and when they were allowed back to find the cave (1961). In my opinion, the Military did the same thing to them they did to the Noss's. Sometime in that three year period, they went and removed all the gold bars, then caved it in. Which is why neither Fiege nor Berlette were able to find the entrance when they went back. I know me, and if I found a cave full of gold bars, there is no way in heII I would EVER forget where the entrance was.

As far as Doc salting VP, I agree that it is possible. Not as any kind of scam, but since he had been completely screwed over at VP, when he found the second cave in the Caballos (probably around Cleato(sic) Springs area), he took gold from there to VP so he could officially remove it without anyone knowing about the Caballos Cave. I also think he was killed before he ever shared full knowledge of the location of the second cave with anybody.

Mike

 

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[UncleMatt]

Casca, I want to make sure I haven't given the wrong impression here. I believe there WAS gold at VP, as well as other artifacts. Enough evidence exists that I accept as proof of that. I also think it was subsequently removed by government/military. It is when one starts to hear of connections to KGC, Incas, Aztecs, Atlantis, or any number of other favorites, that I say more evidence is needed to go there and draw those conclusions. I think there is a natural human instinct to see patterns in things, often when none exists. I also think people want to lend weight to their pet theories, and making a connection to VP does so for them. All perfectly understandable from a human perspective, but not helpful when one is trying to determine what occurred in reality. The gold is gone I believe, so now, I just want to know what really happened out of my own curiosity.

 

[treasminder2]

True NP. It all boils down to what was found in VP. The dore bars are what would be expected from a more primitive refining process, without the means to produce fine gold. These are the type of operations that have been found throughout Northern Mexico and the SWUS. The jewelry found could have come from any of the better artisans who set up shop in the Valley of Mexico after the conquest. Many similar examples have been found on Spanish shipwrecks. And the Armour could have been Spanish or even French, since the sword was identified as French if I remember correctly. I don't see any validity in attempts to link VP and the Caballos to the Aztecs,Templars, KGC, or any other favored civilization/organization that have been suggested by other posters in this thread.

I'll bite

Quote : I don't see any validity in attempts to link VP and the Caballos to the Aztecs,Templars, KGC, or any other favored civilization/organization that have been suggested by other posters in this thread.[/QUOTE]


Such was the thinking of people whom , ignorant of facts , never found any of the Depositories .

People that searched for years , followed the line that everything was Spanish , and missed
many caches per that misconception .


Was the Sword French ?

Ok
I'll cover that
Ex-Confederate Soldiers swiped the Maxy Treasure

Ran north up the Rio Grande with some of it .

A Raid by Apache got it away from the Rebels and stashed it at the Peak .

That is why FRENCH Artifacts were found in the area

I myself found four french Muskets in a Cavern of The Organ Mountains , along with ANCIENT Artifacts

all mixed together ?

yep

Who would do such a thing ?

Perspective should be applied , that the Apache , finding a STASH Site that had been shown to
secure precious items for centuries ,,,

WAS A REALLY GOOD STASH SITE and worthy of their deposits .

The Venue was perfect , in that that Basin was also one of their Strong Holds , so to keep their eyes
on the goods , went right along with the program .


Was the initial stashing done by Templars ?

Nope

Was it Done By the two King's Men , the Hebrews and Phoenicians of King Solomon and King Hiram ?

NOPE

it was laid there at a time when You could Navigate WATER almost right up to the lower foot hills


The above groups , both , came looking for these major repositories .

How did the Templars receive the Info , that these deposits were here ?

That is Easy

if you know the Historic events .

I have set boot to perhaps more square miles over that terrain than any person should ever have to ,

My Father and all of our acquaintances have as well .

If a person was to keep eyes to the soil , they'll find sea shells scattered throughout those ranges
at elevations that denote a very high water level from a distant time period .

I read these post all over the Net where people posit the theory that everything was Spanfolksish connected .

No denying the fact Spain had her Grunts running around out there .

People suppose hypothesize on the logistics of transport , being by Mule or Donkey , but when confronted
with the difficulty of traveling that far with that much weight through a territory
of people intent on raiding and killing Folks ,
and I mean people who were permanent residents of the area , who knew the Terrain very well
and how to use it to advantage , The Logistics begin to fall apart a bit at a time .

What Box is it that the human mind feels so comfortable with , that their minds refuse to open
to alternate possibilities ?

One may remain short on sight as per they're comfort zone , that's a cultural given when
for the most part , their entire World at one time was controlled by a Church and State
that saw they're people in a light just above that of a Beast of Burden .

However , there are those who fore fathers had no controlling power over them .

And in my case , that was my direct linage with the Templars .

Some of the Stone Monuments of the Area are Tanit Iconography ,

THAT , is a proven FACT

Many of the carved Glyphs are Ancient Phoenician

THAT is a Proven FACT


There are these HUGE Turtle Monuments and many of the Las Cruces area claimed these were done
by the Tortugas Indians .

However , it is a KNOWN FACT to myself , that these particular artifacts were set to represent
a certain Culture that was off Continent .

The Turtle was the Icon of a people who lived on Islands , the Major one of which , looked exactly like a Turtle from a distance out at Sea .

Why the low percentage of the bars ?

Easy enough , this was a rapid onsite smelting of Ore for transport .

was all that Ore from that particular Geographic location ?

No it was Gleaned over a very wide area .

What about the Bars that were of greater purity ?

Those were species .


Understand that the Mystery can only be solved with the Artifacts in hand

and a person allows themselves the opportunity to drop
their own narrow parameters .

I personally held these Pure Bars and the Glyphs on those left little doubt these were older than
even King Solomon's time of 2,900 years ago .

These are deposits that were legendary by the time of the Roman .

Many of History sought these out over the Millenniums .

Doc Noss ?

Hard to pin that sucker down ?

He messed so much up .

The Gov't agencies as Osi-services , OSO , DIA and so forth , all followed the exact same ignorant
routine concerning these artifacts ,,,

which was , grab and go smelt and sell .

So we sit on the Net Hypothesizing , for the Gov't like everything power does .
Robbed You the World , of the truth .

 

[gollum]

Rog,

I have no problem with some of what you're saying. I don't care if the gold was left in those caverns by "The Old Ones", "Phoenicians", "Spanish", or "Yogi Bear". My concern is just that the repositories exist. If found, I would highly consider working my way backwards to find who the original depositors were.

What you said about Maximillian's Crown Jewels, I have been saying for many years as well. The Apache killed everybody transporting them, then stashed everything in VP. That was where the Tiara Doc sold came from, as well as most of the old letters and housekeeping crap Noss brought out of the hole.

Mike

 

[treasminder2]

Garcia , the finder, along with his friends and relatives , removed the Knight and brought him down
to messillia for a Christian Burial

on the question of the Ring
Garcia just shook his head , don't know

on the cave and Sarcoughagus


Walk East from Bar Canyon into Soledad , crossing the Military Fence there

continue east to the end of Soledad Canyon just Past Soledad peak .

On your left , a side road diagonals back to the N.W.

Follow that until you come to a Concrete Slab Structure missing it's Roof .

That is the Old Beasley Trading Post

walk past that heading toward the peak until you come to a Bluff slightly to your left

walk to the bluff , on your right will be aanother Concrete structure , that was the holding tank for the spring
run off

you will see old rusted pipe there ,,, that was used to bring the water to the tank

Now you should be looking at a huge hole ,,,

A cave in

what ? a cave in ?

Yes , the Army blew the Cave wide open .
destroying it and the seep spring that fed the Tank .

Turn back to your right , walk N.W. until you reach a solid bedrock wash that drops down into Rucker Canyon

take a left and top out the rise

Se all those Stone Monuments set up there ?

They Look just Like the standing stone Monuments of the Tanit Temple of Byblos ,,, EXACTLY .

now turn your chin to the North and look across the Mouth of Rucker Canyon

out there is set over a half dozen Tortugas ( Turtles in stone )

Follow the wash down toward those

Watch the banks of the wash for Aztec Pottery , it's right there all over the place .

But hey , the Aztecs were never in the Area ,,, right ?

Once on the canyon floor , walk about 120 yards toward a Boulder with a smaller Boulder on top

on the south side of that boulder is a Cave entrance

it wanders about 90 yards back to the North , at the end of that tunnel is a wall sealing up the rest of the tunnel

whats behind the wall ?

 

[treasminder2]

Rog,

I have no problem with some of what you're saying. I don't care if the gold was left in those caverns by "The Old Ones", "Phoenicians", "Spanish", or "Yogi Bear". My concern is just that the repositories exist. If found, I would highly consider working my way backwards to find who the original depositors were.

What you said about Maximillian's Crown Jewels, I have been saying for many years as well. The Apache killed everybody transporting them, then stashed everything in VP. That was where the Tiara Doc sold came from, as well as most of the old letters and housekeeping crap Noss brought out of the hole.

Mike

Not every bit of the Max treasure ended up at VP

much of it was stashed along the way

some had been recovered in one area , yet the folks just removed it from the original cache and moved it not very far away
and re-stashed it

sad for them they could not get back to it

but what they did take, lasted them long enough .

 

[treasminder2]

and just for facts

just 50 yards ahead of the tomb , is a flat top boulder .

laid there , by man , it is white where the surround natual stone is mostly red .

it does not fit the area .

on the boulder , which is about ten feet long by 5 foot wide and 4 feet in height ,,, you will read the term " PICK "

and see a couple initials like J.B. carved in it .

Pick is for one of the Ranch hands who worked for the Beasley's , and J.B. was one of the Sons .

on the lower face of the boulder , on the side facing the Tomb entrance , you will see carved right at ground level
some symbols .

set down with your back to those symbols and look straight out ahead of you

you are staring at the Sealed Tomb before it was blasted away .

The Symbols may be seen across Europe wherever a Knights Tomb is located

and yes , they are always in a Sarcophagus .

Back west , up Soledad you will pass a small bowl canyon on the north between Darcy and North Canyon

on the finger ridge of the west wall , you will note a dike of stone

look closely and you will see a 30 foot carving of what appears to be an Anchor or arrow pointing straight down .

at the top of that carving

are two initials carved

J.R.

Jorge Rasione

That is my ancestor , he was a French Knights Templar
and you will find at the base of the carving , on the south ( left ) another tomb which was busted into .

His Sarcouphagus is busted aprat and the remnants thrown off and down the slope ,

stand with your back to the entrance , look down into the floor of the canyon

down there ONE Boulder stands out for it's mis-color

on it is another smaller boulder .

that too was a Marker .

I walked these

I can argue way better than most , however I don't need to .

I already lived all of this over and over again

Few I know of have .

they are mostly all dead .

The players

many of which
Met each other over the years

some shared

many Obsfucated

matters not what truth is any longer , for these sites have already mostly been raided .

That Agency has done so across the Globe for many treasures .

Is there still gold to be had ?

There may be , but it won't be there long if it is .

They do not even have to leave the cubicle to find it now .

You bought them the best technology they could rip you off with .

I should know , they used it for years on me .

I refer to them as " The Federal Piracy agency "

Project Rumplestiltskin

covered every thing in the S.W.

UFO's

that's very funny ,,, owing to the FACT that all your Gods were nothing more than some light
in the sky and a wish to believe in someone of higher consciousness for recompense for the treatment
of the weak and poor by the Masters who hoarded everything due to the greed .

I laugh at Gods just as readily as others laugh at UFO's

Just as loud as those who laughed at people who believed the Earth was round

and it's true ,,,, the Sun Circumnavigated the Earth

but hey
back then

people believed Earthlings were the Be all End all of the Universe ,,, and they were chosen people by some God out there .

Laugh ?

Actually , The Human trials are a very sad commentary of how they THINK.

 

[gollum]

Well, I just found out that another of them is gone. Looks like Oren Swearingen passed away a few hours ago. I know Roger didn't care much for him, but I felt different. To me, he was always kind and generous with his information.

A sad thing to lose people like that.

Mike

 

[UncleMatt]

It sure is! I just realized today after reading his posts that he ran around some with Glen Carson, who also recently passed away a few years ago, to be followed by his daughter Leanne Carson just a few months ago. I wish I could have asked him about his adventures with Glen,

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Still listening, but not convinced We often over complicate our thinking of actions in the past, based upon our impressions of today, not of what was considered normal in that period. Actually the actions of those in the past were governed by rules far simper than our's of today.

 

[treasminder2]

I have to state that I did not care for some of the invasive behavior he engaged in concerning certain people
such as my fathers work , owing to the fact that those folks are a proprietary aliegeance to their group and family ,
with the material we all were privy to .

Outside of that , Oren was as perfect a human as one can be .

I had no problem with him on a social basis .

if anyone were to understand our position , we cannot dismiss the agencies using people as shills to glean information .

trust was not allowed in our arena .

oren was very forth giving, tis true ,

he wished so hard to see a treasure in situ , almost an obsession for him

we shared like experiences in those Mountains , yet for myself, many of the paranormal activities are just as normal
as walking .

it was dificult to understand where he was coming from , for these areas were wrought with co-vert activities .


My own father thought i was working with the F.B.I. for a while .

After being kidnapped several times , dosed with truth serum , tortured , a man can either be suspect of others .

or a fool ,,

On that whole ONFP group .

In the first group ( circa early 1970's ) Sam and Norman Scott Ran the gig .

Alamogordo sweeled with prospective interlopers .

Sam would call my Dad down to the Hotel , and introduce him to Ova , Letha , Willie , and the other claimants .

dad found many of them so full of it ,,

anyway

I was instructed not to even trust my siblings , and yes they too were coerced by intel into gleaning
info out of me .

After I shot the Photos of the treasure in the Cave ( which is actually a Cavern )

My entire life became a movie script of 007 crap .

Once when the F.B.I. showed up with those photos

and guy came over from next door , flipped out his I.D. and said to them ,: " we've been working this for decades and this is our
project , we're taking that _____! now back off .

I knew this neighbor , changed his vehicle oil and tuned it often for him .

Did i suspect that this Agency would have moved people out of their house and set up
a surveillance point in there ?

Nope .

This is Life under the micro-scope

I can admit to being one hard core mean witted man when it comes to people
pushing in on me .

That is my conditioning .

Oren lived rather well , and much outside that life .

~~~~~ End ~~~~~~

El Chato

Note the Jorge statement of mine above

In the Reditario of El Chato

he directs the reader to the Mine of Jorge '

also to the Kings Mine

and he is NOT talking about the King of Spain .


The Jorge he is referring to is Jorge Rascione .

and as I stated, his tomb is right there in the Organ Mountains
and a follow of my directions will get you right to it.

For the doubters that El Chato's letter is real

or that he even existed

I can well state who ever wrote that letter my father had a copy of ( as many vary ) They knew those Mountains
of the Organs very well

they knew standing monuments
springs
rocks
and mine locations

Quote the Letter once again : " And this mine belongs to Jorge , Father , "

He means his family leader or Father of the group who set the legacy forth .

The Mine is almost to the top of a Peak in Dorcey Canyon

I brought out the ore and it assayed rich in both gold and silver

the Ore is in Smokey Quartz ,

I can walk right up to it , stand there and not see it , for the way the entrance is carved , you have to walk around a curving
formation

it cannot be seen from below , nor from a few feet away

many have found these mine entrances carved in that manner .

as in Millard Canyon above Altadena California in L.A.

El Chato was in the Organs , no doubt at all about that fact .

His Seinias are exactly where he states them to be , right on the Bluff wall at the end of the finger ridge
of the west wall of Dorcey Canyon , the ridge that separates the Tomb of Jorge and Dorcey .

all that El Chato Stuff of the first part of the Letter is In that center part of the canyon with exception of the
first spring of water which is at the Base on the south side of Soledad peak .

on the South wall of Soledad straight out from the mouth of Dorcey Canyon


are the Three high Caves , you can spot them by looking for black streaks running down the face of the bluffs

best done about 1:00 pm during the summer months when the rays of the sun git the bluff ,,, and the two
cave entrances are darkened .

The boulder with the Atajos

ok
there are two , not one as supposed

the one I located with my friend Shayne , is right dead center of Soledad Canyon as you top out coming from the east entrance

it is again another flat top boulder , and again , does not match the areas stones

and yes , it had to be placed using Mules ,

Did we attempt to dig under it ?

Sure did , the soil is as cement there and no way we could physically dig into it .


Understand that the depth of that treasure is right at 17 feet down

( Insert : the 1732 number is NOT a date )

it is an increment of measure .

as well , celestial navigation is to be used at certain sites using a transit

there will be what look like dates

just a number some times

this is Celestial at some sites .

As well , depth is reliant on another increment , usually denoted by a symbol or in one case I know of , a set of drilled holes .


In the Organ Mountains , each mine and or cache is found by following markers

some wi;ll be a set of small stones set on top of boulders in line with direction of travel .

When you reach a Boulder with a lone rock on kit , it usually will be an arrow shaped rock pointer .

That is the end of the trail to the site

from that point , you sit down with back to boulder and look in direction of the point .

there is an increment to be usec in some of these to get you right at the Boulder that the goods are buried under .

Not everything was stored back into the Mines

Most is outside the Canyons , because it was dangerous to enter a Blind Canyon where ambush is easily set .

As a Trap , canyons are a natural.

this was known

so the treasures were usually laid down in an area where Visibility of oncoming maruaders or in place ambush was
easy to spot.


On the East side and out in front of a small entrance to a canyon between Glendale and Johnson Canyon

is set a huge Red Boulder

atop the Boulder is set a Tortugas with the best likeness of a Turtle I ever saw in those mountains .

to the south is a cantilevered set of rocks atop another Boulder .

That one is a POINTER and is Knights Templar marker ( everything is Geometry for them )

Walk due west into that small mouthed canyon

Above on the South Wall finger ridge

is the Ben Sublette so called mine

no , it was NOT in the Guadalupes .

his stash point was in the Guadalupes , but not the crevice with the stream flowing and small tunnel .

I could go for hours into detail of Ben's site and how Dad and a Friend ended up with it's location .

but not these fingers today .

Further

I was asked by a Family Friend where Dad located the Blue Mud in the Organs

That is in that Canyon , right hand side , at the flat level area where the smaller wash is .

As many know , Diamonds can be found where Blue Mud is , that's most times .

this is the Diamond mine area .

Go bacvk south of that canyon

Enter Rucker and walk to the Narrow entrance of Sulpher Canyon .

Look at the North Wall when you reach the Narrow .

See that number 6 with a line under it , carved up there .

That is not a Roman number

it is a SYMBOL

ancient script actually .

It is a WORD

near that was the cave with 300 bars in it .

no , not dore bars

and not all gold , but various bars of various metals .

Gone now .

 

[UncleMatt]

Hi don Gullum. According to the map, north eastern Sonora, which included Tayopa.


View attachment 1058687

Hey Guys, I would like to come up with an image of this map that is high enough resolution to blow it up for framing and hanging on my wall at home. I am going to be doing the same with many other maps like this that we ponder over. Does anyone have a high resolution image file they can IM me please? Or alternatively a link to a site that has it? Thanks!

 

[treasminder2]

Now La Rue

For the spies : " IT'S GONE SUCKERS "

That out of the way

Bob Beasley recounted the story of Agurrie Taking him to La Rues little domicile cave where he lived

quote Bob : " we went down canyon "

Ok , that cave has been speculated by a few people to be in Soledad ,

NOPE , is not there

Bob and Tubisceo or however Aguerries first name is pronounced , had left Aguerries Stone Cabin

not the one over on the east side at the springs

but the Cabin he had up on the north wall of Filmore Canyon .

Coming West toward the mouth of Filmore ( which is going down canyon from the Cabin )

to your left ( south ) is a Big Boulder blocking a Crevice where a small waterfall is at .

go to that , climb around that boulder

walk up to the bluff with the window hole in it ( that can be seen from the floor of Filmore )

There is a Cliche Patio there

walk around to the back side by staying left of that window

there is a low entrance into a cave

on the wall is carved out a long bench

that was La Rues Bed .

From the window look out west toward Las Cruces

There is a Large White Boulder that is set off by it's self

walk down to it

you will find a hole dug there on the west side of the Boulder .

it is 17 feet deep

at that 17 foot level , a tunnel heads for 12 feet back eastward , slide in there to the end

there is another vertical shaft dug straight down for 22 feet , cylindrical .

That was the repository for La Rues Treasure

it was dug up about 4 decades ago .

good bye La Rue Treasure .

Now walk straight north from that Boulder crossing several deep washes until you come to a red Boulder the size of a one car garage

that was the Map Rock

now turn east , see that small narrow mouth of a high canyon ?

There is a branch Canyon that shoots off to your righjt when up there

that is another of La Rue's rich mines up in there .

it is a TOUGH one to get into that canyon from that point

~~~~~~~ End La Rue ~~~~~~~~

The story of the ex-soldier who was found shot dead in Indian Hollow , east side by Whitesands main HQ
and the Two Gold Bars found in his Nap Sack

The cache those came from is NOT in Indian Hollow as people suspect .

That was just his camp area ,

The Bars came from a stash in Johnson Canyon

Near the Mouth of Johnson , just inside , near a small grove of old bent trees

is a big boulder over 8 feet high

atop of it , is an arrow laid out using smaller stones .

it points to the left wall of the canyon up high near a small notch that you pass through to get into Texas Canyon where
mines are at .

On a Low rounded protruding formation , bald on top , is a stone , low , rectangular , and covering a rectangular
hole carved in the rock ( Tuff Job that was )

That is where the man found the bars .


~~~~~ End the Soldier story ~~~~~~~~~~

The Rustler's who found gold bars

Two Rustlers came into Johnson Canyon to raid the Beasley Stock

they found a cave with treasure , ( not just Bars , this was loot )

they got into a fight , one used an Ax to attack the other

the other got the Ax across his shoulder

he got the Ax away and killed the assailent .

Bleeding

He ran to the Beasleys HQ over by Whitesands HQ

he showed them the gold he found

and said it was just around the point from where they were .

Beasley Never did find that cache .

it is in Johnson Canyon ,, or was .


~~~~~~~~~~ Claude and Dads Film of 1962 ~~~~~~~~~~~

In that film , they show Johnson Canyon

visible in the film are the two sites spoken of here .

Neither reaped anything from that Canyon that I witnessed

but the whisper was ,,,,

 

[treasminder2]

The Flame Monuments

Contrary to belief

The main road of the Royal

did not follow the Rio Grande past a certain point

it branched and went up east of the Organs where about todays hiway 54 is at .

To follow Chatos instructions

this is the route

The lone peak is Soledad peak .

As stated he is talking about two separate Canyons

To find one main Camp of theirs
it was water as a clue .

I can well state that without it in those mountains , you are a dead duck .

Game had to be plentiful

as well .

Globe Spring and Pine Spring ran almost year round

But the spring on the southside of Soledad peak always ran water even after years of drought

how is that possible ?

Owe it to the fact that a large sub surface bedrock repository is right there at that leveled off area of Soledad .

it retains a huge Volume of water .

Above that spring to the south on a finger ridge , is a boulder I have a photo of

on that Boulder are set several little turtles pulling what appear to be Ox Carts

these are made from small rocks

there are several carts to each Turtle


This is communicating an event of transport .

a train of Travelers transporting goodies , and the conceptualized message it was raided and the carts contents are buried near this boulder

how to read it : " Again , setting the back to the monument to line a sight is how they did this .

Last I was in there in 2006 , those were still as they were when set .

Is that Treasure still there ?

Nothing near that was dug into , no sign anyone touched these .

El Chato's ?

Close enough if you wish , definitely an Indian Artifact .

 

[sdcfia]

sdcfia,

Well, you are entirely entitled to your judgement, but both Fiege and Berlette passed a polygraph stating that they did not remove any of the bars they found. In fact, that was the express purpose for the polygraph test. Once they had convinced their commander they had actually found something, they were both charged with removing bars from VP. The polygraph test resulted in the charges not being officially filed against them. It was three years between the time they reported the find to their chain of command (1958), and when they were allowed back to find the cave (1961). In my opinion, the Military did the same thing to them they did to the Noss's. Sometime in that three year period, they went and removed all the gold bars, then caved it in. Which is why neither Fiege nor Berlette were able to find the entrance when they went back. I know me, and if I found a cave full of gold bars, there is no way in heII I would EVER forget where the entrance was.

As far as Doc salting VP, I agree that it is possible. Not as any kind of scam, but since he had been completely screwed over at VP, when he found the second cave in the Caballos (probably around Cleato(sic) Springs area), he took gold from there to VP so he could officially remove it without anyone knowing about the Caballos Cave. I also think he was killed before he ever shared full knowledge of the location of the second cave with anybody.

Mike

I guess I hit a nerve with you guys. Anger and derision about blasphemous ideas is a good indicator.

Okay. We know there are many versions of the GI's finding gold bars at the base of Victorio Peak. The list of their names, their associations, what they did, etc. varies with the telling and it's safe to say we'll never know the exact details. But this much we can say with pretty good confidence: the soldiers found about 100 bars of a heavy metal in a cave at the base of the hill that they assumed to be gold. Period. What happened before or after the soldiers' adventure is not in question, as far as the 100 bars are concerned.

As Mike indicated, deception by Noss is a prominent option on the table. Based on his life history, well documented and attested to by many victims in Oklahoma, New Mexico and Texas, he was essentially a bunco artist- a swindler. You can validate that for yourself if you care to. As Mike indicated, since possession of gold was illegal beginning in 1933, Noss needed a valid reason for owning the gold he allegedly removed in the Caballo Mountains. I suspect he moved a substantial number of bars to Victorio Peak and cooked up his "discovery" there, staging the retrieval of some bars and artifacts (also likely from the Caballos) from his vertical entrance accessed from the top of the hill. This fault structure did exist and led to additional caverns lower in the hill. He filed mining claims and treasure trove claims on the site - important because it validated possession of bullion, pending legal sale of same to the government. Presumably the lower caverns were empty, a fact that he needed to hide from his investors at the time. So he accidentally dynamited the top entrance shut (ooops), covering the lie of thousands of bars in the lower reaches, now inaccessible due to the cave-in. Next comes a period of trying to raise investment money, selling plated lead bars on the black market passed off as gold, etc.

Later, desperate for money and still unwilling to reveal the Caballo location (for which he had filed no claims), he found a shallow cave near the base of the peak and put 100 bars inside. Exactly what his plans were then, we don't know because Charley Ryan killed him. Perhaps the 100 bars were lead and that's what he and Charley were arguing about that day - we'll never know.

Ten years later, the soldiers found the shallow cave and the 100 bars, which they assumed were gold. They didn't remove any to test them. They may have been genuine Caballo bars too, for that matter - we'll never know. They may have been real gold, because the Army apparently confiscated them and later worked over the entire peak looking for more. They apparently found the lower caverns, which I suspect were empty. I don't trust the government any more than any of you guys, but there's a fair chance they were telling the truth - they didn't find any more gold. They would have stolen more gold if they had found any, but there is no proof other than Swanner's affidavit that thousands of bars were removed. If anyone can provide evidence to the contrary, I'd be happy to change my tune - more sworn testimony from equipment operators, drivers, grunts, a single snapshot, any civilian witnesses of heavy traffic on the dirt roads, ranchers aware of the unusual activities, FOIA documents, etc. Anything there? The Noss family is apparently soldiering on keeping the faith, even though they were likely conned by Doc's activities too.

The Caballos is the point of interest and mystery. If Noss was active with Willie in the Caballos, and I think he well may have been, that's where we need to be trying to figure things out. Was Willie just a lucky rube itinerant who just happened to find an accurate treasure map? How was he qualified to successfully interpret and use the map? Who created the map? If it was a copy, how was the copy obtained and by whom? How did Noss enter the scenario? Why didn't Noss and Willie file claims in the Caballos? Who were those "city men" who kept capturing and tormenting Willie? Why didn't they kill him when they got what they wanted? Knowing that Noss was a career criminal makes it easy to look at Victorio Peak with a very jaundiced eye.

 

[gollum]

I guess I hit a nerve with you guys. Anger and derision about blasphemous ideas is a good indicator.

Okay. We know there are many versions of the GI's finding gold bars at the base of Victorio Peak. The list of their names, their associations, what they did, etc. varies with the telling and it's safe to say we'll never know the exact details. But this much we can say with pretty good confidence: the soldiers found about 100 bars of a heavy metal in a cave at the base of the hill that they assumed to be gold. Period. What happened before or after the soldiers' adventure is not in question, as far as the 100 bars are concerned.

As Mike indicated, deception by Noss is a prominent option on the table. Based on his life history, well documented and attested to by many victims in Oklahoma, New Mexico and Texas, he was essentially a bunco artist- a swindler. You can validate that for yourself if you care to. As Mike indicated, since possession of gold was illegal beginning in 1933, Noss needed a valid reason for owning the gold he allegedly removed in the Caballo Mountains. I suspect he moved a substantial number of bars to Victorio Peak and cooked up his "discovery" there, staging the retrieval of some bars and artifacts (also likely from the Caballos) from his vertical entrance accessed from the top of the hill. This fault structure did exist and led to additional caverns lower in the hill. He filed mining claims and treasure trove claims on the site - important because it validated possession of bullion, pending legal sale of same to the government. Presumably the lower caverns were empty, a fact that he needed to hide from his investors at the time. So he accidentally dynamited the top entrance shut (ooops), covering the lie of thousands of bars in the lower reaches, now inaccessible due to the cave-in. Next comes a period of trying to raise investment money, selling plated lead bars on the black market passed off as gold, etc.

Later, desperate for money and still unwilling to reveal the Caballo location (for which he had filed no claims), he found a shallow cave near the base of the peak and put 100 bars inside. Exactly what his plans were then, we don't know because Charley Ryan killed him. Perhaps the 100 bars were lead and that's what he and Charley were arguing about that day - we'll never know.

Ten years later, the soldiers found the shallow cave and the 100 bars, which they assumed were gold. They didn't remove any to test them. They may have been genuine Caballo bars too, for that matter - we'll never know. They may have been real gold, because the Army apparently confiscated them and later worked over the entire peak looking for more. They apparently found the lower caverns, which I suspect were empty. I don't trust the government any more than any of you guys, but there's a fair chance they were telling the truth - they didn't find any more gold. They would have stolen more gold if they had found any, but there is no proof other than Swanner's affidavit that thousands of bars were removed. If anyone can provide evidence to the contrary, I'd be happy to change my tune - more sworn testimony from equipment operators, drivers, grunts, a single snapshot, any civilian witnesses of heavy traffic on the dirt roads, ranchers aware of the unusual activities, FOIA documents, etc. Anything there? The Noss family is apparently soldiering on keeping the faith, even though they were likely conned by Doc's activities too.

The Caballos is the point of interest and mystery. If Noss was active with Willie in the Caballos, and I think he well may have been, that's where we need to be trying to figure things out. Was Willie just a lucky rube itinerant who just happened to find an accurate treasure map? How was he qualified to successfully interpret and use the map? Who created the map? If it was a copy, how was the copy obtained and by whom? How did Noss enter the scenario? Why didn't Noss and Willie file claims in the Caballos? Who were those "city men" who kept capturing and tormenting Willie? Why didn't they kill him when they got what they wanted? Knowing that Noss was a career criminal makes it easy to look at Victorio Peak with a very jaundiced eye.

While I can agree with some, I really don't see Doc in as bad a light as you and Springfield. If you don't already have it, pick up the "Victoria Peak" Book by Khoury. He goes into some detail about those fake bars he had. He described how Doc had lead bars painted gold and copper bars, and whenever he set up a meeting to sell one and he got a bad feeling about the buyer, he would show up with a copper or lead bar. The buyer would get pissed and leave. That is the source of the fake bar stories. You use the phrase "career criminal" like you knew the man. THAT is what I have a problem with. I am not a Noss apologist, but can you tell me how many times Doc went to jail and for what? To my knowledge, the only criminal activity he committed was to pull the gun on the waitress and abuse Charley Ryan's Bank Account. Hell, I have been arrested more times than Doc, but that was for bar fights when I was in the military (Tijuana, Ft Bragg, Camp LeJeune, Ft Benning). So does that make me a career criminal in your eyes? HAHAHA

Why would Doc need to salt Caballlo Bars into VP? Doesn't make a bit of sense. Just claim and Treasure Trove wherever they came from in the Caballos. Like I said, I think that sometime in the early 1940s (after WSMR kicked them off property), Doc spent a lot of time in the Caballos looking for another cave from Willie's Map. I also believe he found it. After what happened to them at VP, he kept the entire existence of the second cave a secret. This was also about the time he and Ova divorced. With an ex-wife, there's no way he lets any of the family know about the second cave.

Mike

 

[treasminder2]

I'll try once again to dispell the rumour that Doc took bars from the Caballos to Victorio peak

That peak is where his bars came from

what he did was lie too much and drew far too much attention to his drunken self .

I did not ride in his back pocket all his life
so naturally i have no idea if he ever really went into the Cab's

I do know for a fact that Bars were removed by military at the peak in 1961

i was there on the rim watching with my Grandfather Chris brooks

They used DUMP TRUCKS to drive the bars out of the basin

that is FACT

so far
I heard nothing out of the supposed witnesses like swanner about those Dump trucks being used

the trucks wer silver and Green dump beds on them

i can still draqw up the memory of them from that day

also
the flood lights they used and the road graders .

they made a heck of a lot of noise doing this operation up there that night

we never slept.

i was six years old AT THE TIME .

 

[treasminder2]

btw

it was the Fiegie cave they were pilfering

not Docs main cavern

and the count was about 2000 bars

not 100

the cave was lower on the side of the peak right at a leveled off area

where the slope leveled off , about midway along the side of the peak before it dropped down to the spring .

 

[UncleMatt]

I don't see anyone posting here with anger or derision at all, so maybe we should leave those mischaracterizations out of the conversation please.

 

[familyhunter]

What I would give to take awalk around the mountains with you Roger my grampa always has these grand stories about your dad and his eye for stuff it sounds like you have the same eye