The True Story of Victorio Peak

[Not Peralta]

You still have not demonstrated how these mules trains would have maneuvered past the Apache shooting gallery known as New Mexico's lower Rio Grande Valley. This would have required a substantial military escort, say from the Janos presidio. That would also imply a partnership of sorts with Spain, quite a can of worms to also explain.

I don't see the Jesuits being involved in any contemporary activities moving precious metals to the Caballos during their watch. They may have been aware of existing caches there prior to their arrival in the New World, however. Another possibility is that the Caballo caching was accomplished after American acquisition of the territory by persons currently unidentified.

Removal of alleged Jesuit precious metals from Sonora and Chihuahua must have gone SE or SW, not NE.

sdcfia, you said apache shooting gallery known as new mexico's lower rio grande valley. I would like to know what exactly they were shooting when the jesuits were there, not all Jesuits were traveling with treasure, but when they were, they were escorted with a huge force, I believe you would need to show examples of attacks of traveling Jesuit parties being attacked at that time period.np

 

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[treasminder2]

Quote from Sam who set up the 1972 expedition to the peak for Ova ,

" There's another Squirrel , ( referring to Willie ) We paid hios way , heard his story as it changed with each recounting ,
and set him at his supposed location of his cave ,,, he shook his head and said : " So much has changed , the lay of the land ain't
right ,, I doubt we'll find it "


Quote U.S. Treasury Classified Document from the period of Willies antics : " Interview with said subject inconclusive , owing
to extreme nervousness of subject and non-consistent story line , obscure details , subject obvious in withholding information


~~~~~ End ~~~~~~~~~

As I stated , there are indeed facts collected within Gov. Docs .

These I did not request , the Documents were brought to my home and handed to me for review

to what purpose this was done , may be assumed as a spoof operation covered under : " Project : Rumplestilskin .

Which was a Large Project/Operation run by the OSO out of the Pentagon .

To set meme for the screen memories , as Orchestrated theatrics .

The U.S. Intel Agencies do not as course or by any such rote , for purpose of obfuscating , compile Documents directive of Higher
managing levels .

Although they do indeed compile spoof / mock documents for the general public .

Given this known fact , I can feel well assured the Documents were very clear , concise , and as well candid in the text
thereof .

In the matter of the Apache who gave Doc a map while in prison

This is a very concise document and can be obtained F.O.I.A as two separate agencies were investigating the
event simultaneously ,,,
1 , TREASURY DEPARTMENT .

The second was and still is an agency without exact public designation .

The Office of Special Services as well as the directorate of science and technology are very active in
ongoing attempts at recovery of ancient lost treasure .

The Newest Technologically advanced sensing devices are currently applied to such .

and it was a lone nut gunman with a Magic Bullet ,,, right ?

and Manifest Destiny was not a U'S Conspiracy to genocide indigenous across the Western Half of the American Continent ,,,

right ?

Nope , conspiracies are but a theory ,,,

Tin Hats are everywhere ,,, right ?

 

[gollum]

Quote from Sam who set up the 1972 expedition to the peak for Ova ,

" There's another Squirrel , ( referring to Willie ) We paid hios way , heard his story as it changed with each recounting ,
and set him at his supposed location of his cave ,,, he shook his head and said : " So much has changed , the lay of the land ain't
right ,, I doubt we'll find it "


Quote U.S. Treasury Classified Document from the period of Willies antics : " Interview with said subject inconclusive , owing
to extreme nervousness of subject and non-consistent story line , obscure details , subject obvious in withholding information


~~~~~ End ~~~~~~~~~

As I stated , there are indeed facts collected within Gov. Docs .

These I did not request , the Documents were brought to my home and handed to me for review

to what purpose this was done , may be assumed as a spoof operation covered under : " Project : Rumplestilskin .

Which was a Large Project/Operation run by the OSO out of the Pentagon .

To set meme for the screen memories , as Orchestrated theatrics .

The U.S. Intel Agencies do not as course or by any such rote , for purpose of obfuscating , compile Documents directive of Higher
managing levels .

Although they do indeed compile spoof / mock documents for the general public .

Given this known fact , I can feel well assured the Documents were very clear , concise , and as well candid in the text
thereof .

In the matter of the Apache who gave Doc a map while in prison

This is a very concise document and can be obtained F.O.I.A as two separate agencies were investigating the
event simultaneously ,,,
1 , TREASURY DEPARTMENT .

The second was and still is an agency without exact public designation .

The Office of Special Services as well as the directorate of science and technology are very active in
ongoing attempts at recovery of ancient lost treasure .

The Newest Technologically advanced sensing devices are currently applied to such .

and it was a lone nut gunman with a Magic Bullet ,,, right ?

and Manifest Destiny was not a U'S Conspiracy to genocide indigenous across the Western Half of the American Continent ,,,

right ?

Nope , conspiracies are but a theory ,,,

Tin Hats are everywhere ,,, right ?

Rog,

Tell you what. If you find a treasure cave, then murder several people trying to keep its location a secret, then have government officials asking about it, my guess is that you would play stupid and not remember the "lay of the land" either. God knows he didn't want anybody else going into his cave and finding dead bodies with bullet holes in them. No Statute of Limitations on murder.

Just like my friend that found the 82 pounds of gold bars in Az said; "If anybody comes after me asking about the find, I will say I was lying and the bars weren't real. Who can prove me wrong?"

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

sdcfia, you said apache shooting gallery known as new mexico's lower rio grande valley. I would like to know what exactly they were shooting when the jesuits were there, not all Jesuits were traveling with treasure, but when they were, they were escorted with a huge force, I believe you would need to show examples of attacks of traveling Jesuit parties being attacked at that time period.np

There are no reports of Jesuit packtrain attacks in that region because, since New Mexico was a Franciscan-dominated stronghold since the late 1500's, there were never any Jesuits there. That's the point. There are plenty of accounts of Apaches attacking Spaniards, Mexicans, Anglos, trappers, Santa Fe Trail traders and anyone else traveling there, but not one that mentions Jesuits.

If you are attempting to rewrite history based solely on that supposed Noss map, you'll need more evidence to back it up.

 

[Not Peralta]

sdcfia, I am not trying to rewrite or prove anything, in my past I have already been there and done that, so what were the apaches shooting and what were they shooting with in that time period, just curious. why are you so concerned about the supposed noss map, does it interfere with a theory you have. np ps.have you ever been in that area.

 

[Not Peralta]

sdcfia, you would really be shocked at what different cultures have left there marks in that area, theres a lot of history there that has never been acknowledged by main stream archeologist , np

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi sdcfia; interesting, but have you studied the Apache way of fighting? They almost never attacked frontally, except with element of surprise in their favor. they were well aware of a thing called Attrition rate -- every warrior killed or crippled meant 16 or more years to recuperate,

So since a mule train of 40 or 50 mules would require a large no of men, and in the case of the Jesuit mule trains, also soldiers. Most of their successful raids were on a ranch, a small mule train or an isolated settlement or outlying mines.

The Apache also was known for making 'deals', they needed food etc. They were not hunters, foragers, but essentially lived off of their victims resources. so they would accept a bribe..

For a broad over view - Apache?Mexico Wars - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Incidentally, the Jesuits are still playing their little games. -- Inside The Vault Of The Vatican Bank

I believe they have 1/3 of the worlds Gold stored in their vaults.

Incidentally, in 1942 while on Guadalcanal, we shot down Japanese planes with US manufactured instruments of that year. When I brought up the obvious question, I was told to keep quiet, You like rubber tires on your aircraft no?-

There is no other logical explanation for that amount of metal to be explained.in that area, especially with Spanish artifacts..

SE ??

 

[Not Peralta]

sdcfia, or maybe the apache shooting gallery, was just a figure of speech for you. np

 

[sdcfia]

sdcfia, I am not trying to rewrite or prove anything, in my past I have already been there and done that, so what were the apaches shooting and what were they shooting with in that time period, just curious. why are you so concerned about the supposed noss map, does it interfere with a theory you have. np ps.have you ever been in that area.

The Apaches' history is available from many sources, including themselves.

That Noss map is just another treasure map in my opinion. Treasure maps are a dime a dozen. This map doesn't interfere with my theory about Caballos gold because I don't know where the gold originally came from, and neither does anyone else. As I said before, the gold could have come from Pre-Columbian American sources, or the Spanish period, or the post-Civil War period or some other time. If I ever have a strong enough opinion about it, I'll provide a plausible argument to support it. I do believe Noss was involved in the Caballos, but I suspect that his Victorio Peak antics were a complete scam.

Yes, I have been in that area.

 

[somehiker]

There are no reports of Jesuit packtrain attacks in that region because, since New Mexico was a Franciscan-dominated stronghold since the late 1500's, there were never any Jesuits there. That's the point. There are plenty of accounts of Apaches attacking Spaniards, Mexicans, Anglos, trappers, Santa Fe Trail traders and anyone else traveling there, but not one that mentions Jesuits.

If you are attempting to rewrite history based solely on that supposed Noss map, you'll need more evidence to back it up.

What makes you assume they would have traveled as Jesuits ? That they couldn't have been given safe passage by the Apache and Tin Ne ah in those areas ?
By harassing every other group in these areas, the Apache may have actually been helping a recovery operation to remain undiscovered, IMO. It might be worth looking into who was where during this time. This map is probably the best for research purposes...1862 Johnson_Map of Mexico and Texas
Or is this conversation, for you, more about what you call "alleged" Jesuit treasures ??

 

[sdcfia]

sdcfia, you would really be shocked at what different cultures have left there marks in that area, theres a lot of history there that has never been acknowledged by main stream archeologist , np

I wouldn't be shocked at all, np. I've seen "impossible" cultural things from the Rio Puerco down the Rio Grande, both sides, into Texas.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SDCfia, hnmm Franciscan territory meant nothing to them, since this was a business deal only. Incidentally do you think that they ran around in typical Jesuit garb

Also the Jesuits liked to keep their hands clean, so never heard of the trusted members of the Jesut society that hadn't taken their vows yet ?abjuctors ??

The Jesuits were , and still are, the masters of secrecy.

 

[sdcfia]

What makes you assume they would have traveled as Jesuits ? That they couldn't have been given safe passage by the Apache and Tin Ne ah in those areas ?
By harassing every other group in these areas, the Apache may have actually been helping a recovery operation to remain undiscovered, IMO. It might be worth looking into who was where during this time. This map is probably the best for research purposes...1862 Johnson_Map of Mexico and Texas
Or is this conversation, for you, more about what you call "alleged" Jesuit treasures ??

I believe you'll find that "tin'ne'āh" is what some ethnologists regard as the term that the Apaches used to refer to themselves. Others claim they used "dinē". Means " the people". After the Anglos arrived, they used "indeh", which means " the dead". Seems they saw the writing on the wall. Why that "Noss map" uses two separate words for the tribe is puzzling.

Now, somehiker, what period of history are you referring to? From your recent posts, it seems as if it's post-1861. That being the case, then yes, I agree the Jesuits may well have had business in the Caballos. This idea opens the door for some intriguing speculation about associations and alliances.

If you're referring to the pre-1767 times, with packtrains of gold moving from Sonora to the Caballos, then count me out.

 

[somehiker]

I am well aware of the association between the names. Both go way back, and were used interchangeably, depending on circumstances or personal preference.
When I hear "Dinē", I think "Navajo" rather than Apache. I have also noted the use of "tin'ne'āh" by the Yavapai/Tonto group.
My interest in the map applies mainly to the post 1861 period, but I am open to Jose's idea of a eastern route to the gulf in use by the Jesuit's prior to their expulsion. It may not have been the shortest way back to Rome, or wherever else they may have established a treasury or needed to send valuable commodities, but it may have been the best way to avoid royal oversight. Also that the map may be evidence of remote warehouses having been established to the north and east in rugged country, beyond where others would think to look, as longer term treasuries.
But on this, I will be happy to count you out.

 

[gollum]

The Apaches' history is available from many sources, including themselves.

That Noss map is just another treasure map in my opinion. Treasure maps are a dime a dozen. This map doesn't interfere with my theory about Caballos gold because I don't know where the gold originally came from, and neither does anyone else. As I said before, the gold could have come from Pre-Columbian American sources, or the Spanish period, or the post-Civil War period or some other time. If I ever have a strong enough opinion about it, I'll provide a plausible argument to support it. I do believe Noss was involved in the Caballos, but I suspect that his Victorio Peak antics were a complete scam.

Yes, I have been in that area.

SDCFIA,

Its not likely that VP was any kind of a scam. To say so, you have to ignore Capt Orby Swanner's sworn statement (that he held to his death bed), that in 1961, he personally witnessed the US Military flatbed about 93,000,000 (ninety-three million) ounces of gold from VP. The US Government said he was never there, and he was a liar. When the Noss's got access to VP under "Operation Goldfinder" they found Swanner's name, service number, and date sooted onto a wall in one the sealed lower caves.



You also have to ignore the stories of Captains Fiege and Berlette who personally witnessed several very large stacks of gold bricks in a cave near the base of VP. They both passed polygraph tests regarding their find.

Ignore what you want. Its a free country.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

SDCFIA,

Its not likely that VP was any kind of a scam. To say so, you have to ignore Capt Orby Swanner's sworn statement <cut> the Noss's found Swanner's name <cut> Captains Fiege and Berlette <cut> both passed polygraph tests <cut>

Ignore what you want. Its a free country.

Mike

I don't ignore these things. I just don't believe them. You can believe what you wish to. If I were a believer, I would have felt much better seeing one road leading to the cavern.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SDCFIA, quote -- If you're referring to the pre-1767 times, with packtrains of gold moving from Sonora to the Caballos, then count me out.

? why ? I am curious, that was the quickest and most logiical route, 1/2 by water. and they were at the peak of their influence.

Post 1861 is rediculous, too many eyes.

 

[gollum]

I don't ignore these things. I just don't believe them. You can believe what you wish to. If I were a believer, I would have felt much better seeing one road leading to the cavern.
View attachment 1062662

So, you're, saying, you, don't, believe, pictures, and, documents? I know several people that were there at the time, and can attest to that sooted autograph being there. We also have copies of the polygraph results for Captains Fiege and Berlette. So, you can choose not to believe documented evidence, but that's on you.

All the roads leading to VP are from many different times. The Noss's had roads going up there. The Military built roads up there. The first Noss expedition in the seventies, and Operation Goldfinder in 1992.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

SDCFIA, quote -- If you're referring to the pre-1767 times, with packtrains of gold moving from Sonora to the Caballos, then count me out.

? why ? I am curious, that was the quickest and most logiical route, 1/2 by water. and they were at the peak of their influence.

Post 1861 is rediculous, too many eyes.

To quote your statement from post 459, "So since a mule train of 40 or 50 mules would require a large no of men, and in the case of the Jesuit mule trains, also soldiers". My question would be, whose soldiers were these? Are you suggesting an alliance between the Crown and the SJ?

 

[treasminder2]

http://books.google.com/books?id=csAHAwA...ca&f=false

give that a read

written in 1750 or so.

if you do not wish to pay for the book

you can read a PDF for free at the next link I post .

The land of Ophir

who said that Peak treasure traveled from any where during the times of the Spanish , jesuit /Franciscan or other Rome
controlled knob heads ?

I stated it years ago

the first initial deposit was laid in there thousands of years ago .

~~~ End

Gully
I am talking about the Secret Service questioning Willie
Treasury Agents as well

and Sam Scott of Expeditions unlimited .

Why the Secret Service ?

before the Federal Bureau of Investigation , that was just about the only Federal Law enforcement agency
for internal federal crime investigation .

Why a federal investigation

at the time of Willies find
the U.S. Dollar was backed by a species referred to as Gold ,

any find that superseded in extant the quantity in repository of said Species , could collapse the U.S. Economic scale .

Whereas today it is all Fiat and Backed pretty much by Oil trades , which must as per the International agreement
of 1923 , be traded in U.S. Dollars solely .



Question : Was there a society that KNEW the land of Ophir had been found by Columbus ?

I'll give you a hint ,,, The location of Ophir had always been known , even in Europe before Columbus .

This Hemisphere was Known to exist , far far back in History .