The True Story of Victorio Peak

[Rawhide]

S Hiker. The reason that I have a distinct advantage is that the Tayopas co-ordinates, VC and the Cabollos are well known, '

so we have a map with two known points with a crudely drawn trails connecting them, 'yes'. it IS a genuine map. but o whose handiwork and when? There are many questions remaining, but it has done it's intended work already. and well.


View attachment 1060078 - - - 32*55 N, 106* 38'24W

I have a question. Since you link the Caballo's with Tayopa, do you own the rights to them too? I mean the trail goes on for hundreds of mile with many spurs.

 

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[somehiker]

Pedro Navarez ("El Chato") was a noted bandit active in Chihuahua, Mexico, in the early 1800's. Much folklore surrounds his memory as a Robin Hood character who cached robbery proceeds all over the Satevo-Parral-Delicias country south of Chihuahua city. Reports of his death are highly romanticized in Mexico, but the waybills to his treasures were apparently disclosed by his daughter in the 1840s and consisted mainly of coins buried in clay pots on several ranches. There is little reason to believe he was in New Mexico, where the pickings for roadside bandits were very slim along the Rio Grande, especially compared to the riches available in Chihuahua at the time.

The famous New Mexico Navarez waybill has many variations, and as can be seen from the above quoted example, are fraught with egregious errors. First, the time period is wrong by 200 years. Second, in the 17th century, there was no mountain range upstream from Paso del Norte known as the Caballos. That's two amateurish mistakes by the time the first sentence is read. That's about all a fact checker needs to close the book on this story. The Caballos are an interesting subject, but Navarez doesn't belong in the conversation.

Well put. I've wandered through many of the treasure websites and blogs over the years, cross referencing many of the tales which often are traceable back to dead ends in old treasure magazines. Many of these stories began as some bit of rumour printed in a local newspaper, which was never mentioned again until some enterprising magazine writer years later pulled it from his files and fattened it up a bit for the market.

 

[UncleMatt]

I agree SH, and what I notice is that the authors of such tales, like Maurice Kildare (Gladwell Richardson) for example, did just enough research to add names, dates, and places that would make their treasure tale ring true to the reader or casual researcher. As they say, the best lie is one built on a grain of truth...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Yes Casca, I have the mining rights to Tayopa, nothing in Victoria Peak or the Caballo, in fact the cordinate For Tayopa just posted showed the Sgnture of the Engr, was from the surveying statmnt on Tayopa...

My primary interest is in establishing it as a Route for Tayopa, and the others via the Rio Grande to the Atlantic.

Originally I had postulated that they had a string of small missions all of the way to the Atlantic, then NP's map changed all of that , months of research down the drain . unless there is a parallel path

NP you owe me a cuppa coffee for losing my hard work..

AS for Victoria Peak & The Caballo and their caches..I have noi interest in looking for them, they are "yours" leave that to you collectively ,

 

[Not Peralta]

Real, here is your hot its free, as for the other, its free to, already been there done that, I will leave all that to the younger lads, I just hope I am helping others
by sharing what has inspired me over the years. have another hot or iced np

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

np gracias, that, and te new anti biotic fxed me up fine.

 

[Rawhide]

Yes Casca, I have the mining rights to Tayopa, nothing in Victoria Peak or the Caballo, in fact the cordinate For Tayopa just posted showed the Sgnture of the Engr, was from the surveying statmnt on Tayopa...

My primary interest is in establishing it as a Route for Tayopa, and the others via the Rio Grande to the Atlantic.

Originally I had postulated that they had a string of small missions all of the way to the Atlantic, then NP's map changed all of that , months of research down the drain . unless there is a parallel path

NP you owe me a cuppa coffee for losing my hard work..

AS for Victoria Peak & The Caballo and their caches..I have noi interest in looking for them, they are "yours" leave that to you collectively ,

Thats a lot of ground to cover lol. Wish there was more landmarks for me to visit. I wonder why the use of the fox in the first place? Why did they include the Caballos on the map?

If your able, did you find the iron door?

 

[somehiker]

S Hiker. The reason that I have a distinct advantage is that the Tayopas co-ordinates, VC and the Cabollos are well known, '

so we have a map with two known points with a crudely drawn trails connecting them, 'yes'. it IS a genuine map. but o whose handiwork and when? There are many questions remaining, but it has done it's intended work already. and well.


- - - 32*55 N, 106* 38'24W

I agree the map, if authentic, does show that the author did know where Tayopa, the Caballos,and VP were located in relationship to each other.
As you say, the co-ordinates of all three are well known to many treasure seekers who share the same distinct advantage of knowing they have found a true location, and will one day be able to open their lost mine or treasure vault. Others, who also may have filed legal claim to their chosen X, and have the documents complete with latitudes and longitudes to prove it, work their finds as individuals,JV's, or sell outright.Seeking profit in leu of fame or bragging rights, they may have chosen other names for their projects rather than cope with any form of unwanted publicity or other forseeable complications which can follow the re-opening of such legendary and well known sites.

I have little interest in any of the Tayopas, other than what the story may have in common with those X's which I myself search for, the translated descripcion and existencias or inventario of Fr. Orosco for example, where many objects in bags or wrappings of paper and cowhide are mentioned but other important valuables discussed amongst the padres in their correspondences are not.

Perhaps this map, as crudely drawn as it is, actually illustrates a recovery operation for the treasure caches shown. The date of 1861, when the French became involved in Mexico may actually have closed the door on the caches of Sonora.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Some Hiker you hit on an interesting point, the 'French connection'. Napoleon was interested in Mexico for various reasons, not the least, was Tayopa to help on the debts of France. He installed Maximilian as Emperor and his egrs had drawn up plans for a RR to the foot of the Mesa Obscuro, spedifically for Tayopa, He had close ties with the Vatican. ( Jesuits )

His engr's were actively looking for it with Jesuit documents when the revolution broke out, canceling his plans..

There is no doubt that if they had had more time they would have found it.

Massimiliano's personal adviser was a Belgium mining engr

My entire interest has been Proving that I have Tayopa and to flesh out the entire story from The trip ftom the mines to eventually Rome.

This is where Victorio Peak etc became important as a 'way' station (holding vaults) for transport to an irregular JESUIT ship on the coast by using the Rio Grande for the final transport.

The caches in Sonora, are still intact, I intend to change that.

 

[Rawhide]

While the map does appear to be a possible copy. Words such as APACHE didnt seem necessary unless to mark Ruidoso. The scale is off. The dots are not so much trails as references. There is a map within a map here. There is also some funky stuff going on with the symbols. VP is on here I just didnt recognize it at first. Im not sure why the mountain range is mispronounced but does seem important to the map maker he combined several different areas and labeled them as one place. This is very cool. I wonder why the paper is shaded? I enjoy the fact the map maker figured out a way to cover hundreds of miles on one sheet of paper. I dont get to work with maps often so this was a very nice surprise.

 

[Rawhide]

I was told by someone whose family was close to all this business back in the day that Noss was given the location by an Apache who he was serving time with at the state pen in Santa Fe in the '30's. I've never had the inclination to verify Noss's history before the discovery, but it might prove interesting if one could verify his alleged prison record. The 'lucky deer hunter' story never quite sat right with me.

Very interesting

 

[gollum]

Spring and Casca,

I have heard that as well, but I don't put a great deal of stock in it. The story according to Doc and Willie Daughitt is that after Doc got Willie away from his kidnappers, Willie let Doc take a good look at his map. Its very possible that NP's Rabbit Eared Heart Map is what Doc drew from memory.

From most of my contacts with the people that dealt with the Noss Family, they readily admit where info came from and who gave it. They never talk about this Indian. Is it possible? Yes. Probable? Not to me.

Mike

 

[Rawhide]

My understanding is Noss got one of his leads from a ranch hand he worked with.

 

[somehiker]

Some Hiker you hit on an interesting point, the 'French connection'. Napoleon was interested in Mexico for various reasons, not the least, was Tayopa to help on the debts of France. He installed Maximilian as Emperor and his egrs had drawn up plans for a RR to the foot of the Mesa Obscuro, spedifically for Tayopa, He had close ties with the Vatican. ( Jesuits )

His engr's were actively looking for it with Jesuit documents when the revolution broke out, canceling his plans..

There is no doubt that if they had had more time they would have found it.

Massimiliano's personal adviser was a Belgium mining engr

My entire interest has been Proving that I have Tayopa and to flesh out the entire story from The trip ftom the mines to eventually Rome.

This is where Victorio Peak etc became important as a 'way' station (holding vaults) for transport to an irregular JESUIT ship on the coast by using the Rio Grande for the final transport.

The caches in Sonora, are still intact, I intend to change that.

Given that 1646 was the date of Orosco's document makes it obvious that the 1861 date was equally significant to the person who made this map, IMO.
Unfortunately I cannot see any other purpose for the drawing, given the date and the charted and graphical list of treasure caches, as anything but a kind of "flow chart" detailing a recovery operation in progress. That Victorio Peak still contained inventory when Noss showed up, suggests the operation did run into trouble at some point during the tumultuous period of 1861-1868. I think that with the port of Matamoras/Bagdad under French control by 1864, there would have been plenty of time to recover and transport what is shown on the drawing. Especially if the Jesuit documents made the locations easier to find.
Maximilian was an archduke from the Royal House of Austria, where some of the more familiar Jesuit padres who lived and died or were expelled from Mexico were from as well.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

For one, Hike,r Most of New Mexico became US territory in about 1849, the 1861 I'll have to think on it. The American Cvil war from 1860 - 1865 includes that date.

From the start of the Mexican war there was no way that they could move it'

Perhaps that was the inclusive dates when they were active ? The invatory included production from other Mines in Sonora, other than than Tayopa.

Incidentally, To go from Sonora to New Mexico by passes two N/S nountain ranges on the trail to Matamoros, something that gave me trouble originally. tt also took advantage of the Rio Grande.

 

[somehiker]

For one, Hike,r Most of New Mexico became US territory in about 1849, the 1861 I'll have to think on it. The American Cvil war from 1860 - 1865 includes that date.

From the start of the Mexican war there was no way that they could move it'

Perhaps that was the inclusive dates when they were active ?

Sure did, but the US civil war left most of the territory unguarded, and it was sparsely populated in the AZ-NM area shown on the map at this time anyways.
Even the few Union Troops that were there were busy chasing them sneaky Confederates around the countryside. Noss may have found the original drawing/map in VP. I recall something about documents on a table which, if in poor condition may have lead him to make a copy.
This map and the 1861 doesn't mean the Jesuits didn't use much the same routes to move their stuff. They probably did until 1768. But what worked for them would have worked just as well for the French, especially if Maximilian knew about the Jesuit routes/trails and used the same ones. The Mexicans quickly lost control, and it was mainly French, English and Confederate traffic in and out of Matamoros after 1861. It became a very busy port during that time.

 

[somehiker]

For one, Hike,r Most of New Mexico became US territory in about 1849, the 1861 I'll have to think on it. The American Cvil war from 1860 - 1865 includes that date.

From the start of the Mexican war there was no way that they could move it'

Perhaps that was the inclusive dates when they were active ? The invatory included production from other Mines in Sonora, other than than Tayopa.

Incidentally, To go from Sonora to New Mexico by passes two N/S nountain ranges on the trail to Matamoros, something that gave me trouble originally. tt also took advantage of the Rio Grande.

I'm looking at the map as a "battle plan", drawn up in 1861. It does show the targets, caches and mines, six of which are mentioned along with the heading above ...."Sonora". In other words, a "come see guys, this is how we are going to do this" sketch. What might be the one with the solid line that is not labeled like the others...an unknown cache or mine ?? The Vatican and the Jesuits may have been the guides, so following the trails around or over obstacles may have not been a problem. Entire armies have done so many times. The other targets may have been in the Caballos, VP, a church cache in Mexico City and the cache shown by what marius is calling the "fox". The Rio del Norte would have been the way down to Matamoros. From there the goodies could have been shipped to either France or Rome, or to both.

 

[sdcfia]

I'm looking at the map as a "battle plan", drawn up in 1861. It does show the targets, caches and mines, six of which are mentioned along with the heading above ...."Sonora". In other words, a "come see guys, this is how we are going to do this" sketch. <cut>

This seems highly unlikely, considering the fact that the Apaches had essentially waged war against all Mexicans in today's Arizona and New Mexico since the early to mid 1700's, and against Anglos since the Mangas incident about 1850 on the Mimbres River in southern NM and the Bascom affair in southern AZ about 1860. How were the Jesuits going to run this gauntlet to the Caballos?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning SDCFIA. Coffee? That is very true, until you consider the Apachi MO.. Because of attrition factors they seldom made a frontal attack, so a mule train with perhaps 10 - 15 soldiers stopped any frontal attack. As Far as Rome was concerned, they only worried about the cargo being delivered - mule drivers and soldiers were expendable.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd morning S Hiker, you have a valid point however, The French were tippy toeing with the US at the time, culminating with the Monroe document. They had already ceded a huge amount of territory in the Louisiana Purchase in 1804. For armed French troops to patrol inside of the US was unthinkable in those days.

Traffic on the rio grande was highly controlled from the Civil war on until ithe river was finally reduced to a trickle .- I spent many an hour patrolling it while in the BorderPatrol. Those Texas skeeters are Hungry.

I feel that that map was a sort of offhanded copy of another, it certainly wasn't up to usual Jesuit work, but the important thing to me is that it DID 'indicate' the travel route, a journey of perhaps several months by heavily loaded animal.

My theory in the past, because of data and ruins that I have found, is that a string of small missions were set up one day apart - where the rep of the Jesuits could account for the cargos feed and rest both the animals and men , then send them on their way with the approp. paper work. but -- this would involve a distance of over 1000 miles. too many missions to my way of thinking at the present.

Some of that trail was so barren that feed and water for the animals would have to be carried or provided at a certain no of missions. This theory is still on the board for revision.

What we now have is that Silver & Gold left northern Sonora and ended up at the Victorio Peak, & Caballo region. which were holding vaults for the Jesuit bi yearly (?) Ships. This, coupled with that crude map is the only explanation for the immense amount of materiel ( bars & Spanish Artifacts) that has been reported to have been recovered or seen.