The Treasure of El Pensamiento (including Ruminahuis stash)

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

No Chinese AMY ? You surprise me, one of the dominent languages - I don't either, since most ot the people were refugees when I was there and spoke different dialects, not Mandarin.. Did you read my post about spending Christmas eve teaching a pore lady of the night, written Chinese ? and NO. I didn't partake. was just trying to keep warm and that was the only place available.

As I mentioned, your English is almost perfect, far better than our own citizens. I admire you gal. Beauty & Brains.

 

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[Corporate Investigations]

No Chinese AMY ? You surprise me, one of the dominent languages - I don't either, since most ot the people were refugees when I was there and spoke different dialects, not Mandarin.. Did you read my post about spending Christmas eve teaching a pore lady of the night, written Chinese ? and NO. I didn't partake. was just trying to keep warm and that was the only place available.

As I mentioned, your English is almost perfect, far better than our own citizens. I admire you gal. Beauty & Brains.

Hello Don Jose

Thanks for the compliment, Yes you are correct the Chinese as a language is a very ambiguous term.

Western mis perceptions of the Chinese language is one unified language across china?

In fact there is about 154 languages and many Chinese cannot understand each other because each have their own regional dialect. While mandarin is the predominate language of the north and Communist Party, Cantonese is more predominate in the South. Australia had a fair amount of Australian, Chinese who came to Australia in the 1850's gold rush and stayed. Most of them was Cantonese. Many of their descendants now have thick Aussie accent as deep as any Cow Cockie. Many have never been able to speak any Chinese as they have been in Australia 8 or so generations. Chinese is a very difficult language to learn to write, unless you have learned to read language as child as their thousands of characters to remember.

Hardluck Told me of a joke to tell the different of a Mandarin speaker and a Cantonese Speaker.

The Mandarin speaker is very abrupt with their words like if they are angry the word snaps off really quick.. Cantonese speaker is like if they are singing or falling off a cliff with their words ending in Ahhhhh. There are 11 or so more predominate languages in china while the rest are small region dialects based off those dialects.

If I said do you speak Mandarin to a Mandarin they would look at you blankly as because Mandarin is a western name of their language which is actually called Pŭtōnghuà Mandarin is spoken by possibly more people than any other language: over 1.3 billion. It is the main language of government, the media and education in China and Taiwan, and one of the four official languages in Singapore.


Cantonese which is actually called Yuè is spoken by about 70 million people in Guangdong and Guangxi provinces and Hainan island in China, and also in Hong Kong, Macau, Singapore, Malaysia and many other countries.

But there several dialect below you might find interesting.

Wú is spoken in Zhejiang and Jiangsu provinces and in Shanghai and Hong Kong by about 90 million people. Major dialects of Wu include Shanghainese and Suzhou.

Mĭn Nán is in the south of Fujian province, Guangdong province, southern Hainan Island, in the south of Zhejiang and Jiangxi provinces, and also in Taiwan, Singapore and many other countries.

Jinyu is spoken mainly in Shanxi province and also in Shanxi and Henan provinces by about 45 million people. It used to be considered as a dialect of Mandarin, but is now thought to be a separate variety of Chinese.

Hakka is spoken in south eastern China, parts of Taiwan and in the New Territories of Hong Kong. There are also significant communities of Hakka speakers in such countries as the USA, French Guiana, Mauritius and the UK.

Xiang (Hunanese) is spoken by about 25 million people in China, mainly in Hunan province, and also in Sichuan, Guangxi and Guangdong provinces.

Gan is spoken by about 20.5 million people in Jiangxi province and in parts of Hubei, Anhui, Hunan and Fujian provinces.

Mín Bĕi has about 10.3 million speakers mainly in Northern Fujian Province and Singapore. Mín is the Classical Chinese name for Fujian province and Bĕi means 'north' or 'northern'.

Mín Dōng is spoken mainly in east central Fujian Province and also in Brunei, Indonesia (Java and Bali), Malaysia (Peninsular), Singapore, Thailand. The approximate number of native speakers is 9.5 million.

Dungan is spoken by the Muslim Hui people in China, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan. There are approximately 50,000 speakers. Dungan is the only variety of Chinese not with Chinese characters. Instead it is written with the Cyrillic alphabet.

Pŭ-Xián is spoken by about 2.6 million people mainly in east central Fujian Province, and and also in Malaysia, Singapore, Indonesia and the USA.

Huīzhōu is spoken in southern Anhui and northern Zhejiang provinces. It used to be considered as a dialect of Mandarin, but is now thought to be a separate variety of Chinese.



As you can see Chinese is very difficult to learn as in fact it is several languages. Beside I have trouble remembering the five I have I have been taught.

Amy

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ah has Amy, so you are not the perfect Goddess that I had in mind, but until I find one you'l do nicely

Chinese written language is simpler. It is catalogued in a Chinese dictionary by the no of strokes along with it's classifier.

I never touched that poor gal. where I spent the night was about the last level for her - on the Chinese docks - what more could a red blooded yanke guy do but allow her to stay in the rom where it was warm - course there was that damn charcoal stove which amost killed me from the fumes

The bed was two panks laid over a supporting frame works,with one blanket as a matress and two pillows filed with rice hulls, just as hard as sand.

 

[InAustralia.Jones]

IJ, 'Don' in ole Mexico comes automatically with age not necessarilly from intelligence.

Italians in general are lovely people.

Hi Don Jose,

When i wrote the above i was in a hurry, doing 50 things at once and concentrating on all at the same time.

Yes I agree with you, given the fact I was taught to respect my seniors. Some people may not understand what "Don" stands for, In the Italian culture we used to use quite often as Respect, I believe it was widely used from the Late Antiquity period, and then evolved.

To translate it into English for the younger generation would be the same as the prefix "Mr", though "Don" is more an Honorific term.


Jones

 

[InAustralia.Jones]

Hello Don Jose you just about some it up. I can speak English, Finnish, Russian, French and Spanish. Some times words get mixed up.

Amy

That is amazing!!

Hello Amy, sinun melko талантливые женщины, pour comprendre , lire et écrire en todos los idiomas únicos.做得好, "Джонс".


Jones

 

[Corporate Investigations]

That is amazing!!

Hello Amy, sinun melko талантливые женщины, pour comprendre , lire et écrire en todos los idiomas únicos.做得好, "Джонс".


Jones

Hei kiitos kohteliaisuudesta in English Hello thank you for your compliment.

My apologies J.J.A we have drifted of a little from the original topic of the Pensamiento story?

Just with the Pensamiento story as case in question for an Hypothetical example you discover the truth behind such a legend and make the discovery of a life time? What next? How do exploit it to your advantage without all the claims from all countries with vested interest in such a discovery, taking it all away from you in the courts?

Finders is not always keepers especially when there is obscene amount of treasure at risk. Even if you decide on stealth moving it from one country to the next...How do you move such a treasure and convert to liquid assets without being busted? Even collaborators in such an undertaking can became a nightmare. I like hear opinions on what problems that would eventuate with such a discovery like the Pensimento story?

Amy

 

[tintin_treasure]

Hei kiitos kohteliaisuudesta in English Hello thank you for your compliment.

My apologies J.J.A we have drifted of a little from the original topic of the Pensamiento story?

Just with the Pensamiento story as case in question for an Hypothetical example you discover the truth behind such a legend and make the discovery of a life time? What next? How do exploit it to your advantage without all the claims from all countries with vested interest in such a discovery, taking it all away from you in the courts?

Finders is not always keepers especially when there is obscene amount of treasure at risk. Even if you decide on stealth moving it from one country to the next...How do you move such a treasure and convert to liquid assets without being busted? Even collaborators in such an undertaking can became a nightmare. I like hear opinions on what problems that would eventuate with such a discovery like the Pensimento story?

Amy

Amy,,
I have commented several times about my concept of ''soft'' treasure hunting instead of ''hard'' treasure hunting when the situation becomes complicated to benefit from an actual find. Hard treasure hunting is actually grabbing the treasure and seeking a finders' fortune from the authorities.But soft treasure hunting is locating and documenting the location (with gps info, photos etc) the treasure without touching it.Then trading the information at a premium for anyone that offers a good price.Courtesy demands to first offer the government of the country the chance to buy the info .But if they dont offer a good price , sell it to an international corporate company(salvage company, etc) and you are out of the hassle.Whatever happens next with the company and the government in question is not your problem.One can decide whether to go for hard or soft treasure ,case by case depending on the prevailing laws and past experiences of the country in question.Unfortunately officials in many countries are corrupt to benefit from hard finds ( with some exceptions like Germany, Austria etc where the rules are explicit and finders' reward is generous),,in other countries where corruption prevails or the rules are not 'treasure hunter friendly' including the USA, one better opt for soft treasure hunting and sell the information at a premium.There is no law to prohibit anyone to enter a country as a tourist and explore the country.You locate your treasure with a proper document desk research(longer time) and just go to explore place to locate it using your tourist card(last mile of the research).Then document the place, leave the country and from the comfort of your home trade your info .Of course some treasures are buried to see them easily but your research and boots on the ground in any case would help you to narrow the search.But for treasures that are hidden in caves etc these approach is very straightforward.
TT

 

[InAustralia.Jones]

Hi J.J.A, we went off topic. I searched my files on this topic as i remembered i conducted a back ground search and family history search on "John Doig". Here is what i have.... starting with -

Of more import is the strange but true claim made upon the Royal Bank of Scotland in 1965. The story of a ship named the ‘El Pensamiento’ (The Thought) and its fantastic cargo gives a fascinating demonstration
of how the cross pollination of details can occur from one story to another. However unlike most associated stories where a treasure ship is said to go to some unknown location this one has a mysterious treasure
arriving at a very well known location.

In 1965, a legal action was raised by Senora Violeta Aguilar de Caceras of Lima, Peru, who claimed from the bank "598 large merchant bags which were dispatched from Lima, Peru, in 1803 by the ship El Pensamiento
under Captain J Fanning and J Doigg to the Royal Bank of Scotland and delivery entrusted to Castillo de Rosa".

Another simultaneous claim of the treasure said it had been shipped from Lambayeque, Peru by a Corregidor named Antonio Pastor y Marin de Segura, Marques de Llosa. John Fanning and John Doig jointly commanded
the ship, ‘El Pensamiento’. It was the descendants of de Segura, who died in 1804, that were also laying stake to the treasure pursuant to a 5th generation will. Contained in 90 wicker baskets the treasure was
said to be deposited in the bank by a Sir Francis Mollinson or Mollison.

Bank of Scotland officials had to deal with solicitors, South American banks, the Peruvian consul, the Procurator Fiscal of Edinburgh and tellingly the Masonic Grand Lodge of Scotland acting for its South
American brothers.

A search made of the bank’s vault and strongrooms in Edinburgh and Glasgow did not turn up the missing treasure but enabled the bank to say they had checked. Safe custody books were of no use either in
settling this strange case as these only went back to 1860.

No treasure or settlement was forthcoming and all ended up viewing the incident as an ‘experincia simpatico’, an interesting shared experience.

De Segur and Fanning are all real persons and along with Doig were well known seafarers.

----------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

The following article refers to John Doig and his brother William:

The Cocos Island Pirates: Excerpt from book 'Romance of the Sea,' (National Geographic Society, Washington: 1981) chapter 'Fortunes from the Spaniards,' page 57-58:

The story of the Cocos Island treasure dump begins about the year 1818 when a British pirate, Bennet Graham, or Benito Bonita as he preferred to call himself, brought the loot from Peruvian churches and merchant ships to be buried on Cocos Island until he could collect it later. It is fairly certain that more wealth was added to this dump later.

With Bonita was William Thompson, who turned up at Cocos Island again in 1824. The Spaniards had managed to get away much of their treasure from Lima when Peru was in revolt against the rule of Spain. Lord Cochrane, then in command of the Chilean Navy and giving help to Peru, went to the port of Callao, to which the treasure had gone, and demanded two-thirds of the money with which to pay his men. On the scene appeared Thompson, now in command of a trading brig 'Mary Read.' He arranged to take off some of the Spanish grandees with their enormous fortune and avoid Lord Cochrane's attentions. What had happened to Bennet Graham nobody apparently knew. It may be that William Thompson knew, but, if he did, he certainly never revealed anything.

As soon as the 'Mary Read,' with the escaping Spaniards and their wealth, was well clear of the port the helpful Captain Thomson killed the Spaniards and flung them overboard, then set sail for Cocos Island to bury his share of this additional loot. Unfortunately it was many years before Thompson had a chance of returning to collect his vast wealth. When he did at last manage the return voyage he took a partner with him and discovered that both the treasure of Bonita (Graham) and Thompson's own were untouched. It was too risky to take away just then and Thompson and his partner, Doig, made careful preparations for another voyage.

Thompson died without ever seeing his treasure again, but in due course some years later, his partner, Doig, with his son, went out to Cocos once more, all prepared to bring home their great fortune. Unfortunately a landslide had occurred and made the recovery of the treasure a serious engineering task. They were totally unprepared for anything of that sort and had to return home to consider their plans.

The elder Doig died and the son never had a chance of going out again, but he left clear directions regarding the location of the treasure hoards. Many expeditions have been made and a few coins and ornaments have been found in circumstances which certainly help to confirm the story. Most of the seekers, however, have done just as much to obliterate helpful landmarks as have the storms and natural changes through the long years which have elapsed since Thompson buried his loot.

----------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

John Doig, born 24 Jun 1792 in Maybole, Ayr, Scotland; died after 1865 in Peru. He married 1824 in Peru to Mercedes Astigarraga, born 1804 in Peru.

Notes for John Doig

1817, July 9 - Extracted Processes, National Archives of Scotland, CS32/15/47

Decreet in absence, David Stewart, junior, WS, as factor on the estates of the deceased Hugh Doig Hutchison v John Doig.

John appears to have left home before his father's death in 1819. He was a weapons merchant. He arrived in Carabobo, Venezuela in 1820, then moving on to Columbia. He soon moved to Lambayeque, Peru where he lived until his death.

One family document mentions: 'John Doig el Corsario y su hermano William que se va a Chile' which translates 'John Doig the Privateer and his brother William who goes away to Chile.' The story goes that John served the Peruvian Navy in their bid for freedom from Spain, and he commanded a privately owned warship that preyed on the commercial shipping or warships of Spain.

----------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

The Lost Treasure of the El Pensamiento,' by Jim Gilchrist in 'The Scotsman' dated 24 Dec 2003. J.A.A this is the story you posted.

----------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

Treasures are made to frustrate people,' he remarks, and introduces into the story a tantalizing document known as the Derrotero, a document presented to King Carlos IV of Spain by a man named Valverde before his death in 1792, which gave directions established by another, earlier Valverde, to a vast cache of Inca treasure, reputedly hidden in a cave in Ecuador's wild Llanganati region. It is said to have been dispatched there by Ruminahui, one of Atahualpa's generals, after the Inca leader had been baptized then strangled by the good Christian invaders of his country. De Segura, he says, would have used the Derrotero in obtaining his treasure.

Hall, 67, is no stranger to caves: in fact he has one named after him, one of the mysterious Tayos caves to which he led a British-Ecuadorian expedition in 1976, which included as patron and member the astronaut and moon walker Neil Armstrong. The treasure of the Llanganti he regards as a side-issue, if an intriguing one, to his real interest, the ancient civilizations of South America, but believes the treasure almost certainly exists - and that some of it may have come to Scotland.

So far as its subsequent disappearance, he believes 'the defining hand' could be the eminent Scots banker Thomas Coutts, another Montrose man, who may well have known Doig, and certainly Mollien. Coutts, says Hall, became banker to George III - and was known to assist the Bourbons. Hall, as did Gilhooley and other researchers, points to a 'mysterious absence' of Leith cargo manifests for the years 1795-1805, and suggests that as Coutts is thought to have disposed of George lll's financial ledgers after the monarch's death, well, perhaps he turned his attention to cargo manifests.

In Ecuador, countless explorers have tried to find that Llanganati cave, sometimes with fatal consequences, while following copies of the Derrotero (which Hall believes to have been altered to confuse treasure-hunters), along with a map of the Llanganati region, made in 1827 by a pharmacologist, Atanasio Guzman, who himself perished in the area.

That didn't stop the veteran Scottish mountain man, Hamish MacInnes, from making three trips to the Llanganati, also equipped with the Derrotero and the Guzman map. MacInnes also made fruitless enquiries about the El Pensamiento and has tried, so far without success, to trace the Spanish royal warrant which would have authorized the original expedition into the Llanganati to procure the treasure, ostensibly for Spain but also for de Segura.

You won't find MacInnes's Glencoe home crammed with Inca gold - he didn't find any, but he does believe that Atahualpa's riches may well lie within the Llanganti. In his book Beyond the Ranges, he expresses his belief that the Valverde Derrotero is genuine, however, he warns that the Llanganati, high on the Altiplano and near the Equator, is unforgiving country: 'Not a place for a bucket-and-spade visit.'

But what about those who believed they were the rightful inheritors of de Segura's treasure? In Quito, capital of Ecuador, an old friend of Hall's, Dr Michel Merlyn spoke last week to Cesar and Hector Pástor, the sons of Hector Plaza Salvador, who directed the family committee formed to make the claims in 1965. 'They said they didn't feel cheated or enraged at all,' recounts Merlyn. 'Most of the Pástors, the two of them included, were not disillusioned, although some were, of course. 'They described the whole affair as an experiencia simpática - an interesting and funny experience. They haven't been investigating since the 1965-1966 episode, but I'm sure they are still interested.' But the story of the lost Pástor millions won't lie down and die. Another story in El Comercio in May 1965 added a further, intriguing element by recounting how, as far back as 1686, an infamous pirate, Eduardo David, plundered the mansion of the Obaya family in Lambeyeque, stealing, among other things, 598 bags or containers of gold and silver.

Then, as this article was going to press, a Peruvian woman living in Edinburgh, who had helped MacInnes translate the Llanganati documents, told her version, which mentioned Doig and Fanning, and a fast British ship laden with treasure, but had one of the partners taking his third of the treasure to France - where it was used in the purchase of Louisiana. And, she claimed, the treasure was still lying in the Royal Bank: 'But the descendants of the man who put it there cannot prove they are his real descendant, because in Peru there was a fire in the registry office. *****"Notice how tracks are covered when treasure is involved!"*****

So, amid blazing documents and ricocheting conspiracy theories, the lost treasure of the El Pensamiento sails into the sunset - and seems likely to stay there, unless someone locates some vital documents.

----------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

I have much more on the subject but reluctant to release as i'm still researching

----------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

food for thought, are there vital documents or a "Certain Cave"? for the Brave......


Jones

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

IJ, it's remarkable how Spanish allows a 'general' interpretation of most of the European languages. but I am stumped on Finnsh and Russioan..

 

[InAustralia.Jones]

IJ, it's remarkable how Spanish allows a 'general' interpretation of most of the European languages. but I am sttumped on Finnsh and Russioan..

Hi Done Jose,

Over the years i have taught myself many languages.


Jones

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

TT, they will always require some proof, they are not going to " stick their heads out " without it.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Jones, or Esperanta for example ? One is sufficient except for scientific etc, work.

 

[tintin_treasure]

TT, they will always require some proof, they are not going to " stick their heads out " without it.

Real da Tayopa
True,,That is why I said photos of the treasure if you find it hidden in a cave,,,otherwise you can always agree to be on the spot to show them once the necessary deal had been struck,,,
TT

 

[J.A.A.]

Hello J.J.A and TT

That's just one of magic attractions of the trio. They just keep you guessing and you never know for sure even when they claim they found nothing....with a wink.

I suppose all of us get admiration for the cockiness of it all brazenly flying in face of establishments with a 1 finger salute to officialdom waltzing in and out of countries..... with innocent shrug "what who me!" act?

Even in high places there is little soft spot for them. The innuendo absolutely torments the crap out of officials and the elites....

Sadly there is to too many other people in their best interests that they do not publish book.

Amy

I totally understand. I wouldn't want anybody to get hurt simply because we here on Tnet yearn for the "details" of their adventures. It's just that the trio appears to be living the treasure hunting dream and we'll never get to know the facts, some of which I'd imagine could potentially change what's written in history books!

And by the way, Amy & IA.Jones, no apologies necessary if the topic has kinda veered from where it started. I always enjoy all the dialogue here!

All the best to you all-
-Justin

 

[J.A.A.]

"food for thought, are there vital documents or a "Certain Cave"? for the Brave......"

InAustralia.Jones-
Please elaborate on your teaser question!
Thank you in advance.
-JAA

 

[J.A.A.]

Hi J.J.A, we went off topic. I searched my files on this topic as i remembered i conducted a back ground search and family history search on "John Doig". Here is what i have.... starting with -

Of more import is the strange but true claim made upon the Royal Bank of Scotland in 1965. The story of a ship named the ‘El Pensamiento’ (The Thought) and its fantastic cargo gives a fascinating demonstration
of how the cross pollination of details can occur from one story to another. However unlike most associated stories where a treasure ship is said to go to some unknown location this one has a mysterious treasure
arriving at a very well known location.

In 1965, a legal action was raised by Senora Violeta Aguilar de Caceras of Lima, Peru, who claimed from the bank "598 large merchant bags which were dispatched from Lima, Peru, in 1803 by the ship El Pensamiento
under Captain J Fanning and J Doigg to the Royal Bank of Scotland and delivery entrusted to Castillo de Rosa".

Another simultaneous claim of the treasure said it had been shipped from Lambayeque, Peru by a Corregidor named Antonio Pastor y Marin de Segura, Marques de Llosa. John Fanning and John Doig jointly commanded
the ship, ‘El Pensamiento’. It was the descendants of de Segura, who died in 1804, that were also laying stake to the treasure pursuant to a 5th generation will. Contained in 90 wicker baskets the treasure was
said to be deposited in the bank by a Sir Francis Mollinson or Mollison.

Bank of Scotland officials had to deal with solicitors, South American banks, the Peruvian consul, the Procurator Fiscal of Edinburgh and tellingly the Masonic Grand Lodge of Scotland acting for its South
American brothers.

A search made of the bank’s vault and strongrooms in Edinburgh and Glasgow did not turn up the missing treasure but enabled the bank to say they had checked. Safe custody books were of no use either in
settling this strange case as these only went back to 1860.

No treasure or settlement was forthcoming and all ended up viewing the incident as an ‘experincia simpatico’, an interesting shared experience.

De Segur and Fanning are all real persons and along with Doig were well known seafarers.

----------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

The following article refers to John Doig and his brother William:

The Cocos Island Pirates: Excerpt from book 'Romance of the Sea,' (National Geographic Society, Washington: 1981) chapter 'Fortunes from the Spaniards,' page 57-58:

The story of the Cocos Island treasure dump begins about the year 1818 when a British pirate, Bennet Graham, or Benito Bonita as he preferred to call himself, brought the loot from Peruvian churches and merchant ships to be buried on Cocos Island until he could collect it later. It is fairly certain that more wealth was added to this dump later.

With Bonita was William Thompson, who turned up at Cocos Island again in 1824. The Spaniards had managed to get away much of their treasure from Lima when Peru was in revolt against the rule of Spain. Lord Cochrane, then in command of the Chilean Navy and giving help to Peru, went to the port of Callao, to which the treasure had gone, and demanded two-thirds of the money with which to pay his men. On the scene appeared Thompson, now in command of a trading brig 'Mary Read.' He arranged to take off some of the Spanish grandees with their enormous fortune and avoid Lord Cochrane's attentions. What had happened to Bennet Graham nobody apparently knew. It may be that William Thompson knew, but, if he did, he certainly never revealed anything.

As soon as the 'Mary Read,' with the escaping Spaniards and their wealth, was well clear of the port the helpful Captain Thomson killed the Spaniards and flung them overboard, then set sail for Cocos Island to bury his share of this additional loot. Unfortunately it was many years before Thompson had a chance of returning to collect his vast wealth. When he did at last manage the return voyage he took a partner with him and discovered that both the treasure of Bonita (Graham) and Thompson's own were untouched. It was too risky to take away just then and Thompson and his partner, Doig, made careful preparations for another voyage.

Thompson died without ever seeing his treasure again, but in due course some years later, his partner, Doig, with his son, went out to Cocos once more, all prepared to bring home their great fortune. Unfortunately a landslide had occurred and made the recovery of the treasure a serious engineering task. They were totally unprepared for anything of that sort and had to return home to consider their plans.

The elder Doig died and the son never had a chance of going out again, but he left clear directions regarding the location of the treasure hoards. Many expeditions have been made and a few coins and ornaments have been found in circumstances which certainly help to confirm the story. Most of the seekers, however, have done just as much to obliterate helpful landmarks as have the storms and natural changes through the long years which have elapsed since Thompson buried his loot.

----------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

John Doig, born 24 Jun 1792 in Maybole, Ayr, Scotland; died after 1865 in Peru. He married 1824 in Peru to Mercedes Astigarraga, born 1804 in Peru.

Notes for John Doig

1817, July 9 - Extracted Processes, National Archives of Scotland, CS32/15/47

Decreet in absence, David Stewart, junior, WS, as factor on the estates of the deceased Hugh Doig Hutchison v John Doig.

John appears to have left home before his father's death in 1819. He was a weapons merchant. He arrived in Carabobo, Venezuela in 1820, then moving on to Columbia. He soon moved to Lambayeque, Peru where he lived until his death.

One family document mentions: 'John Doig el Corsario y su hermano William que se va a Chile' which translates 'John Doig the Privateer and his brother William who goes away to Chile.' The story goes that John served the Peruvian Navy in their bid for freedom from Spain, and he commanded a privately owned warship that preyed on the commercial shipping or warships of Spain.

----------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

The Lost Treasure of the El Pensamiento,' by Jim Gilchrist in 'The Scotsman' dated 24 Dec 2003. J.A.A this is the story you posted.

----------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------

Treasures are made to frustrate people,' he remarks, and introduces into the story a tantalizing document known as the Derrotero, a document presented to King Carlos IV of Spain by a man named Valverde before his death in 1792, which gave directions established by another, earlier Valverde, to a vast cache of Inca treasure, reputedly hidden in a cave in Ecuador's wild Llanganati region. It is said to have been dispatched there by Ruminahui, one of Atahualpa's generals, after the Inca leader had been baptized then strangled by the good Christian invaders of his country. De Segura, he says, would have used the Derrotero in obtaining his treasure.

Hall, 67, is no stranger to caves: in fact he has one named after him, one of the mysterious Tayos caves to which he led a British-Ecuadorian expedition in 1976, which included as patron and member the astronaut and moon walker Neil Armstrong. The treasure of the Llanganti he regards as a side-issue, if an intriguing one, to his real interest, the ancient civilizations of South America, but believes the treasure almost certainly exists - and that some of it may have come to Scotland.

So far as its subsequent disappearance, he believes 'the defining hand' could be the eminent Scots banker Thomas Coutts, another Montrose man, who may well have known Doig, and certainly Mollien. Coutts, says Hall, became banker to George III - and was known to assist the Bourbons. Hall, as did Gilhooley and other researchers, points to a 'mysterious absence' of Leith cargo manifests for the years 1795-1805, and suggests that as Coutts is thought to have disposed of George lll's financial ledgers after the monarch's death, well, perhaps he turned his attention to cargo manifests.

In Ecuador, countless explorers have tried to find that Llanganati cave, sometimes with fatal consequences, while following copies of the Derrotero (which Hall believes to have been altered to confuse treasure-hunters), along with a map of the Llanganati region, made in 1827 by a pharmacologist, Atanasio Guzman, who himself perished in the area.

That didn't stop the veteran Scottish mountain man, Hamish MacInnes, from making three trips to the Llanganati, also equipped with the Derrotero and the Guzman map. MacInnes also made fruitless enquiries about the El Pensamiento and has tried, so far without success, to trace the Spanish royal warrant which would have authorized the original expedition into the Llanganati to procure the treasure, ostensibly for Spain but also for de Segura.

You won't find MacInnes's Glencoe home crammed with Inca gold - he didn't find any, but he does believe that Atahualpa's riches may well lie within the Llanganti. In his book Beyond the Ranges, he expresses his belief that the Valverde Derrotero is genuine, however, he warns that the Llanganati, high on the Altiplano and near the Equator, is unforgiving country: 'Not a place for a bucket-and-spade visit.'

But what about those who believed they were the rightful inheritors of de Segura's treasure? In Quito, capital of Ecuador, an old friend of Hall's, Dr Michel Merlyn spoke last week to Cesar and Hector Pástor, the sons of Hector Plaza Salvador, who directed the family committee formed to make the claims in 1965. 'They said they didn't feel cheated or enraged at all,' recounts Merlyn. 'Most of the Pástors, the two of them included, were not disillusioned, although some were, of course. 'They described the whole affair as an experiencia simpática - an interesting and funny experience. They haven't been investigating since the 1965-1966 episode, but I'm sure they are still interested.' But the story of the lost Pástor millions won't lie down and die. Another story in El Comercio in May 1965 added a further, intriguing element by recounting how, as far back as 1686, an infamous pirate, Eduardo David, plundered the mansion of the Obaya family in Lambeyeque, stealing, among other things, 598 bags or containers of gold and silver.

Then, as this article was going to press, a Peruvian woman living in Edinburgh, who had helped MacInnes translate the Llanganati documents, told her version, which mentioned Doig and Fanning, and a fast British ship laden with treasure, but had one of the partners taking his third of the treasure to France - where it was used in the purchase of Louisiana. And, she claimed, the treasure was still lying in the Royal Bank: 'But the descendants of the man who put it there cannot prove they are his real descendant, because in Peru there was a fire in the registry office. *****"Notice how tracks are covered when treasure is involved!"*****

So, amid blazing documents and ricocheting conspiracy theories, the lost treasure of the El Pensamiento sails into the sunset - and seems likely to stay there, unless someone locates some vital documents.

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I have much more on the subject but reluctant to release as i'm still researching

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food for thought, are there vital documents or a "Certain Cave"? for the Brave......


Jones

Jones-
Is this "certain cave for the brave" in question the one 5 cordas below the egg-shaped rock that took 500 Indians 2-1/2 years to hollow out that Prodgers supposedly destroyed

-Justin

 

[InAustralia.Jones]

Jones-
Is this "certain cave for the brave" in question the one 5 cordas below the egg-shaped rock that took 500 Indians 2-1/2 years to hollow out that Prodgers supposedly destroyed

-Justin

You Found It - Well Done!!!

Hint: The Cave for the Brave has an Animals name attached to it!

Jones

Edit 10.12am Friday April 8: J.A.A: your next question would probably be, do i know were it is? Answer: My research hasn't extended that far, and as some people know I stopped researching this topic for quite awhile.

Jones

 

[InAustralia.Jones]

"food for thought, are there vital documents or a "Certain Cave"? for the Brave......"

InAustralia.Jones-
Please elaborate on your teaser question!
Thank you in advance.
-JAA

.....see Above

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

TT, unfortunately you have to 'prove' your point since so many have claimed to have found 'the tresures' over the years, that they are understandably wary of such claims

There-in lies the pit fall.

 

[Corporate Investigations]

Hello Don Jose

Exactly! You have to be very careful as these days we are confronted with the chicken and Egg problem?

Photographs and Films etc have no baring as prove these days as most people a Photoshop programs on their computer and pictures can and does get manipulated as evidence. so we have the problem for authorities to give you the time of day you have provide physical evidence, that cannot be disputed by experts. However here is the problem once you have removed the artifact from the site you make be liable for prosecution as your in breach of most countries archeological protocols.

As of late we had the Malaysian treasure cave debacle, the Polish treasure train disaster, The Templar tomb in south of France hoax, The ex porn queen claim of treasure being found on Cocos island. just to name a few....This is why the authorities as insanely suspicious of such claims being made...In fact if you look back through the 20th century there has been a whole host of such claims.

The problem is even if you make the find of the century you might not even take serious.

Amy