The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

[ISmellGold]

That's true. 327 years is a long time. But we'll never know if we don't look, right?
I need to plan my trip as well. Best of luck to you ISmellGold.

"May fortune favor the foolish"

If I lived in Greenwich, I would probably keep a sharp eye for anything unusual found.
Just snap a few pictures before you spend it.


Good Luck

 

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[Bocaj]

I agree why would you have a mirror with a skull and cross bones on it?

View attachment 2180124


Crow

I beg to differ! We tend to evaluate everything with our Hollywood trained and brainwashed brains.

The skull and bones only got exclusively associated with piracy much later. It is a symbol religious sects and especially Templar and Masons where using, in fact the black flag comes from the Templar fleet's battle flag. To find the symbol in some furniture in the 17th century doesn't really mean that much. In that time it would not have been strongly associated with piracy.

 

[Randawg72]

You are correct Bocaj,
As I noted, the skull and crossbones were most likely carved by later owners of the artifacts. Before 1700, pirates flew a plain black flag with/or without a red flag. The "Jolly Roger" pirate flag did not appear until the early 18th century.
Captain Kidd was a Privateer so the primary flag he flew was the "Red Ensign". Kidd also carried flags of rival nations, so when he approached a ship flying French colors, he flew a French Merchant flag.

 

[AstralDruid]

How come i never seen this section of Tnet before..... Brilliant stuff...
I have an old friend, a diving instructor in the med..... he claims to have a pretty good idea of where Rommel's gold is..WW2 loot.... A bit off topic , sorry, just got excited when i seen these threads ....

 

[Bocaj]

You are correct Bocaj,
As I noted, the skull and crossbones were most likely carved by later owners of the artifacts. Before 1700, pirates flew a plain black flag with/or without a red flag. The "Jolly Roger" pirate flag did not appear until the early 18th century.
Captain Kidd was a Privateer so the primary flag he flew was the "Red Ensign". Kidd also carried flags of rival nations, so when he approached a ship flying French colors, he flew a French Merchant flag.

View attachment 2183731 View attachment 2183735

I wouldn't be so sure it was carved in later but was original made like that. Robert Livingston was the patriarch of founding grand-master of free masons in the New world (New York). And by chance the sponsor together with New York's governor Bellomont (see attached contract)

Both became embarrassed by Kidd's capture of the QM. I personally think there was more to that story. My guess (after a long research) is that he was send to bring Avery's huge treasure to New England and that he found and re-buried it somewhere else after he was a burned man because his crew forced him to take the QM. What a tragedy: he could hardly tell them that the haul he was after was so much more worth!

 

[Randawg72]

Hi Bocaj,
Colonel Robert Livingston was a friend of Kidd's and did help him to secure backers, raise funds, and plan his privateering venture.
Henry Avery's raid and treasure haul on the Grand Mughal fleet was about seven months prior to Kidd's departure in April of 1696. There's no record of Captain Kidd ever meeting or interacting with Avery. Why do you believe Avery buried his loot, and what in your research connects Kidd to Avery and his treasure?

 

[Randawg72]

How come i never seen this section of Tnet before..... Brilliant stuff...
I have an old friend, a diving instructor in the med..... he claims to have a pretty good idea of where Rommel's gold is..WW2 loot.... A bit off topic , sorry, just got excited when i seen these threads ....

Hi AstralDruid,
I'm not exactly sure how brilliant this thread has been, but we could always use a fresh opinion.

"I would rather light a candle than curse the darkness"

 

[Bocaj]

Hi Bocaj,
Colonel Robert Livingston was a friend of Kidd's and did help him to secure backers, raise funds, and plan his privateering venture.
Henry Avery's raid and treasure haul on the Grand Mughal fleet was about seven months prior to Kidd's departure in April of 1696. There's no record of Captain Kidd ever meeting or interacting with Avery. Why do you believe Avery buried his loot, and what in your research connects Kidd to Avery and his treasure?

Logic mostly. He couldn't get his hands on 100k pounds otherwise. His whole story makes no sense otherwise. Also see https://www.treasurenet.com/threads/in-search-of-captain-averys-treasure.695054/page-10 in regard to the Avery letters...

W.K. was tasked to hunt the pirates of Madagascar, which of course Avery was the star of. He just did the heist of the century or more. Imagine the significance of what he did!

There is no record that he ever met Avery neither but why would he need to? Someone of Avery's crew or a confidant with knowledge where he buried his treasure on the way or some map would do it as well. He sailed almost exactly the same spots that Avery did so the probability is quite high. Not a coincidence neither as he was tasked to hunt them.

Also there is the possibility that he just pretended to have that knowledge to save his neck as an act of desperation (which would be bad for us) but somehow I doubt that, for me it seems he was a naive fool being used by people like Livingstone and double crossed in the end. A tragic figure really.

 

[Randawg72]

Interesting take,
But your assumption is a little weak. Unlike most pirates, William Kidd was arrested and put on trial, so the details of his travels are fairly well documented. The stash that Kidd had tried to use as leverage to bargain for his life was valued at £100,000 pounds. This coincides with the estimated plunder taken from the QM. Henry Avery's hoard was reportedly worth over £600,000 pounds (The equivalent of £115 million today). If Kidd actually had access to Avery's treasure, then why didn't he mention it when his life was at stake?
Also, Avery had no reason to bury any of his treasure. After the "heist", Avery was so wealthy that he immediately "retired" from piracy and lived the rest of his life in very comfortable obscurity.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Interesting take,
But your assumption is a little weak. Unlike most pirates, William Kidd was arrested and put on trial, so the details of his travels are fairly well documented. The stash that Kidd had tried to use as leverage to bargain for his life was valued at £100,000 pounds. This coincides with the estimated plunder taken from the QM. Henry Avery's hoard was reportedly worth over £600,000 pounds (The equivalent of £115 million today). If Kidd actually had access to Avery's treasure, then why didn't he mention it when his life was at stake?
Also, Avery had no reason to bury any of his treasure. After the "heist", Avery was so wealthy that he immediately "retired" from piracy and lived the rest of his life in very comfortable obscurity.

Randawg72 - Many pirates were brought to trial. The records of those cases are some of the best documentation we have about those lives and times. The Library of Congress has over 50 books and pamphlets on-line that make for interesting reading.

As I understand the story, Capt. Avery was cheated out of his ill-gotten plunder and died in poverty.

If Capt. Kidd had access to a vast treasure, why would he have buried it and returned home?

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[Randawg72]

Hi Bookaroo,
Fair enough. But Kidd's trial was arguably among the most famous and publicized. Everyone knows that Henry Avery's fate is purely speculation, but I'd like to think that the King of The Pirates retired in luxury. And with all of his powerful backers, Kidd obviously expected a full pardon and planned to return for his hidden treasure.
But you skirted the issue. Do you believe William Kidd had anything to do with Avery or his treasure?

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Hi Bookaroo,
Fair enough. But Kidd's trial was arguably among the most famous and publicized. Everyone knows that Henry Avery's fate is purely speculation, but I'd like to think that the King of The Pirates retired in luxury. And with all of his powerful backers, Kidd obviously expected a full pardon and planned to return for his hidden treasure.
But you skirted the issue. Do you believe William Kidd had anything to do with Avery or his treasure?

Randawg72: I did not intend to skirt anything. Yes, Kidd's trial is well-known. Had the British government not hidden the French passes (odd that they kept them for being introduced as evidence, yet didn't destroy them) he might not have been convicted of piracy. The murder charge is, of course, another matter.

I don't believe there is a Captain Kidd hidden treasure. He simply wasn't a successful pirate or privateer - his troubles stem from the fact that he couldn't secure a prize. No purchase, no pay.

As for Avery, I'll accept the story that he returned to England and was cheated out of his plunder. Taken by pirates, if you will...

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[Randawg72]

I appreciate your opinion,
But it is very well documented that William Kidd did capture a treasure ship and cargo worth millions today. His only failure was in trusting evil men who sacrificed his life to appease the King and the Indian government.

The story of Avery being swindled of his riches was created to placate those who felt that a pirate shouldn't escape justice and live in luxury, but should instead be punished by suffering in poverty for his criminal deeds.
Don't you find it odd that even though there was a worldwide man-hunt, and King William III offered a substantial bounty for his capture, these savvy money loving swindlers didn't think to report Avery's location, nor attempt to collect this reward?

 

[Bocaj]

I appreciate your opinion,
But it is very well documented that William Kidd did capture a treasure ship and cargo worth millions today. His only failure was in trusting evil men who sacrificed his life to appease the King and the Indian government.

The story of Avery being swindled of his riches was created to placate those who felt that a pirate shouldn't escape justice and live in luxury, but should instead be punished by suffering in poverty for his criminal deeds.
Don't you find it odd that even though there was a worldwide man-hunt, and King William III offered a substantial bounty for his capture, these savvy money loving swindlers didn't think to report Avery's location, nor attempt to collect this reward?

The QM's treasure was mainly goods not gold and those had to be sold first. As his crew did (probably getting much less of its value from the fence) and then burned the ship (and run away with the lot). In any case his and his backers part of it would hardly be 100k pounds so where else if true does this treasure come from?
Please read the "Avery the Pirate" letter from the Avery thread which some W.K. told some interviewer! Kidd's and Avery treasure (if the letter is genuine that is) are one and the same!
How he came to it is of course speculation - he either reburied it or simply did know its location. I tend to the first assumption which would explain why Avery died a poor man. It would also explain the "coded" letter. That no one mention it in the trial is easy to explain: no one had any interest to do so as that would mean they had to return it to India if found! and also as it is not related to the accusations there was no formal need the mention it at all!

In any case if someone can link the trial's protocols that would be an interesting read...

 

[Randawg72]

If I follow you correctly,
You believe that the £600,000 Grand Mughal haul taken by Avery, and the £100,000+ Quedagh Merchant prize taken by Kidd (nearly 2-1/2 years later), are somehow "one and the same" treasure?
And that a secret coded letter written and signed by "Avery the Pirate" claiming that he received a royal pardon and went into service as a spy for King William III is true and authentic?

 

[freeman]

If I follow you correctly,
You believe that the £600,000 Grand Mughal haul taken by Avery, and the £100,000+ Quedagh Merchant prize taken by Kidd (nearly 2-1/2 years later), are somehow "one and the same" treasure?
And that a secret coded letter written and signed by "Avery the Pirate" claiming that he received a royal pardon and went into service as a spy for King William III is true and authenti

If I follow you correctly,
You believe that the £600,000 Grand Mughal haul taken by Avery, and the £100,000+ Quedagh Merchant prize taken by Kidd (nearly 2-1/2 years later), are somehow "one and the same" treasure?
And that a secret coded letter written and signed by "Avery the Pirate" claiming that he received a royal pardon and went into service as a spy for King William III is true and authentic?

Not sure what the point of this extended thread is. Some guy trying to convince himself he's right?

He gets told that images do exist of the Kidd maps he claimed didn't and when he is shown one it's more denial.

To finish this off for anyone else scratching their heads here:

The Palmer 'Kidd" maps were drawn in the 1930s by an associate of Harold T Wilkins. How do I know? I have images of the other maps and handwritten 'documents' drafted by the associate that were similarly fed/planted elsewhere on another chump like Palmer. They are the same drafting and in the same handwriting as appears on the 'Kidd maps' .

The OP has constructed his grand answer totally unaware these other versions exist as his research never went deep enough to find them.

One of two possibilities may now happen:

A. The OP goes into denial again that these exist and just keeps going on with this junk.

B. He realises that, as was warned last time, perhaps there is more out there he didn't know about so it may be prudent to do some more work and learn of their existence before basing your entire theory on things drafted as part of a hoax in the 1930s.

Which possibility happens will give you an indication how much worth the OP's 'Kidd map' research has.

One other thing that will definitely happen is I find and press the TNet 'unwatch' button.

 

[Randawg72]

Hi freeman,
You are a glutton for punishment. Could you please share your proof that the Kidd/Palmer charts that I referenced were drawn in the 1930's by an "associate" of Harold T Wilkins?

One of two possibilities may now happen:
A. You will completely ignore my question, just like you did in post #91.
B. You will realize that I already proved you wrong in post #23. (Just add "or his associate").

 

[Old Bookaroo]

The QM's treasure was mainly goods not gold and those had to be sold first. As his crew did (probably getting much less of its value from the fence) and then burned the ship (and run away with the lot). In any case his and his backers part of it would hardly be 100k pounds so where else if true does this treasure come from?
Please read the "Avery the Pirate" letter from the Avery thread which some W.K. told some interviewer! Kidd's and Avery treasure (if the letter is genuine that is) are one and the same!
How he came to it is of course speculation - he either reburied it or simply did know its location. I tend to the first assumption which would explain why Avery died a poor man. It would also explain the "coded" letter. That no one mention it in the trial is easy to explain: no one had any interest to do so as that would mean they had to return it to India if found! and also as it is not related to the accusations there was no formal need the mention it at all!

In any case if someone can link the trial's protocols that would be an interesting read...

Ahoy, Bocaj:

If by "trial protocols" you mean the legal procedure(s) of the day, read any reliable account of Captain Kidd's trial. There is, for example, a volume in the Notable British Trials series about Kidd's trial. For example, Kidd was denied counsel as was the custom of the day. The judge assured him he would answer any legal questions Kidd had - therefore Kidd had no need for representation.

If you are seeking an account of the trail of the Every (Avery) pirates, there is one in the excellent Library of Congress pirate trial colllection available at the LoC website. Highly recommended!

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[Randawg72]

Interesting British Pathé newsreel video of Elizabeth Dick showing off some of the pirate relics that she inherited after Hubert Palmer's passing in 1949.

Link:

 

[Bocaj]

If I follow you correctly,
You believe that the £600,000 Grand Mughal haul taken by Avery, and the £100,000+ Quedagh Merchant prize taken by Kidd (nearly 2-1/2 years later), are somehow "one and the same" treasure?

No I do not claim that but the conclusion of both "Avery the Pirate" letters (with the fist one told by "W.K.") describing exactly the same treasure. If and I think the possibility is high that "W.K." means "William Kidd" than with very high probability they are the same treasure. Also it means that KIdd's lost treasure isn't from the Quedagh Merchant merchant as we already know it couldn't come close to 100k pounds. The Gardiners island and the sold goods on the QM account for most of the haul already.
In any case I do not claim with any certainty but try to give conclusions on the base that those document are authentic and "W.K." is Kidd!

And that a secret coded letter written and signed by "Avery the Pirate" claiming that he received a royal pardon and went into service as a spy for King William III is true and authentic?

The letter doesn't say anything about a pardon or him working as a spy - this is just an interpretation of others and not mine. I can't even see why they speak of a complicated encryption that not even coding experts could decider. Its a children's code with the only complication that we have only a few words encoded so we have some numbers and letters that do not repeat.
When it comes to authentic or not - I am not expert in 18th century English documents so what do I know. People post them and before not seeing the originals no serious expert would confirm or deny it neither.
All we can do is to speculate. Means apply logic to assumed conclusions. Its dead reckoning and if you have experience with that nautical term you know that it can go very wrong if not used with caution.