The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

[BennyV]

Well don't get upset. I am sometimes a bit sarcastic, that comes from too much swashbuckling I suppose. And yes I was a bit taken back by your post telling you already know where that island is without telling. I don't like to be teased here. I come like most people to learn from others and grandstanding isn't helpful.

If you think you know keep that to yourself and then everyone will continue the discussion in a friendly manner.

That’s the problem we sometimes have on websites/text messages/emails. At times we can’t deduce sarcasm/humor/emotion(s) from the text.

 

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[Randawg72]

Well don't get upset. I am sometimes a bit sarcastic, that comes from too much swashbuckling I suppose. And yes I was a bit taken back by your post telling you already know where that island is without telling. I don't like to be teased here. I come like most people to learn from others and grandstanding isn't helpful.

If you think you know keep that to yourself and then everyone will continue the discussion in a friendly manner.

False claims are annoying. That's why I choose my words carefully, as in: "I already found what I believe to be Kidd's island." rather than: "I already found Kidd's island."
Everything that I post is truthful to the best of my knowledge and perceptions. And I openly retract comments that I have posted in error.
Maybe you can elaborate on your "a lot of contradictions in what you are claiming in the first post" statement?

 

[Bocaj]

False claims are annoying. That's why I choose my words carefully, as in: "I already found what I believe to be Kidd's island." rather than: "I already found Kidd's island."
Everything that I post is truthful to the best of my knowledge and perceptions. And I openly retract comments that I have posted in error.

Well it means you have an idea where it could be but you keep it t yourself (why would you mention it apart to tease everyone here). No one is complaining that it isn't truthful, it is simply not polite to tell "I know already but I won't tell". Please keep it to yourself until you are ready to introduce us to your ideas.

Maybe you can elaborate on your "a lot of contradictions in what you are claiming in the first post" statement?

As mentioned in you first post you think the island is not in the Americas. But in a further discussion you claim Kidd's treasure being around 100k from the sale of QM goods. As those goods were sold in the Caribbean he could not buried the treasure outside of the Americas as he was imprisoned there shortly after.
If you look for the island in the Indian ocean it would very much advance my idea that he somehow got his hand on Avery's treasure as the huge sum can hardly explained otherwise.

 

[BennyV]

So where’s the island? What ocean is it in?

 

[wilfin]

I have a great interest in the treasure "Lodged" by Captain Kidd. I believe the treasure exists, and that the "Kidd/Palmer" charts are authentic, and I do Not believe the treasure is located anywhere near the America's nor the China Sea. I may (or may not) have solved some of the clues in this 328 year old mystery, and am interested in the opinions and input of like minded treasure hunters.

View attachment 2179722

Hello I’m in nz have read a lot about Robinson Crusoe island lately and as a pirate strong hold doesn’t get much mention of treasure only the English late arrival on the seen a lot about refitting ships probably the odd cash on land owned by Argentinian govt now land maps in the Harlian library in England a good place to look also the dag register Indonesia of lost ships Chek words MAR DEL …SOL might be missing discription off map more likely the Solomon is or near by??

 

[Randawg72]

Well it means you have an idea where it could be but you keep it t yourself (why would you mention it apart to tease everyone here). No one is complaining that it isn't truthful, it is simply not polite to tell "I know already but I won't tell". Please keep it to yourself until you are ready to introduce us to your ideas.

An Internet forum, or message board, is an online discussion site where people can exchange opinions and ideas on topics in the form of posted messages.
Why would sharing (or not sharing) my opinion be considered "not-polite"?
Sorry, but if you expect me to disclose all of my findings to you and the world, get ready for more disappointment.

As mentioned in you first post you think the island is not in the Americas. But in a further discussion you claim Kidd's treasure being around 100k from the sale of QM goods. As those goods were sold in the Caribbean he could not buried the treasure outside of the Americas as he was imprisoned there shortly after.

Records show that Kidd sold 132 chests of Opium and 122 bales of silk and other goods for gold and Rupees before leaving India at the ports of Cochin and Kalliquilon. Where is it written that Kidd sold any of his plundered goods in the Caribbean?

 

[Bocaj]

Why would sharing (or not sharing) my opinion be considered "not-polite"?
Sorry, but if you expect me to disclose all of my findings to you and the world, get ready for more disappointment.

No one expect that from you - don't twist my words. Please stay with facts and opinions - what you did above was neither.

Records show that Kidd sold 132 chests of Opium and 122 bales of silk and other goods for gold and Rupees before leaving India at the ports of Cochin and Kalliquilon. Where is it written that Kidd sold any of his plundered goods in the Caribbean?

He sold some and left the crew with the QM to sell more of it. They sold the rest, burned the ship. He and Bellomont got nothing apart from what he buried at Gardners island.

He sold some of the goods in India to be able to continue the voyage. Then his crew deserted him taking their share with them. Would he salvage the Adventure Galley for its metal parts if he already carried 100k in gold and stones?

He paid out the shares of almost all the crew (100) after the mutiny. He kept the investors part, his own and 15 crew's part. Then subtract the goods they sold in Mona Island and what he buried in Gardners island. Please make the calculation. How in the world he be able to bury 100k even if the rest of the crew let him do that without their knowledge? (he had to take on new crew who I guess wouldn't part with their share neither)

If he buried a treasure (not in the Americas) that came from the ships he took in India he must have at least greatly exaggerated its value!

 

[Randawg72]

No one expect that from you - don't twist my words. Please stay with facts and opinions - what you did above was neither.
So you didn't write " simply not polite", and "Please keep it to yourself"?
He sold some and left the crew with the QM to sell more of it. They sold the rest, burned the ship. He and Bellomont got nothing apart from what he buried at Gardners island.
Kidd left Henry Bolton in charge of the Quedagh Merchant and its "Leftover" cargo. The bulk had long been sold, and Kidd's £100,000 pound treasure was already safely hidden.
He sold some of the goods in India to be able to continue the voyage. Then his crew deserted him taking their share with them. Would he salvage the Adventure Galley for its metal parts if he already carried 100k in gold and stones?
Iron was more valuable in the 17th Century. Ships were always stripped before scuttled.
He paid out the shares of almost all the crew (100) after the mutiny. Kidd divided a small portion of gold to his crew. They never knew the total amount of treasure Kidd had. He kept the investors part, his own and 15 crew's part. Then subtract the goods they sold in Mona Island and what he buried in Gardners island. Please make the calculation. How in the world he be able to bury 100k even if the rest of the crew let him do that without their knowledge? (he had to take on new crew who I guess wouldn't part with their share neither)
After the sell-off, Kidd had acquired 75 pounds of gold, 150 pounds of silver, And more than 70 Rubies, Emeralds, Sapphires, and Diamonds. (Ref: The Pirate Hunter, page 220).
If he buried a treasure (not in the Americas) that came from the ships he took in India he must have at least greatly exaggerated its value!
I believe the £100,000 pound quote is accurate. Kidd always raided the Captain's quarters and secreted this plunder for himself. The Captain of the QM (John Wright's) treasure was worth tens of thousands of pounds on its own.

 

[Randawg72]

Hello I’m in nz have read a lot about Robinson Crusoe island lately and as a pirate strong hold doesn’t get much mention of treasure only the English late arrival on the seen a lot about refitting ships probably the odd cash on land owned by Argentinian govt now land maps in the Harlian library in England a good place to look also the dag register Indonesia of lost ships Chek words MAR DEL …SOL might be missing discription off map more likely the Solomon is or near by??

Hi Wilfin,
A lot of people believe that Juan Fernández is possibly Kidd's Island (see post #123). I just think it's too geographically out of range. The same with the Solomon Islands.

 

[Randawg72]

So where’s the island? What ocean is it in?

Well Kidd says it's in the China Sea, and it's called Yunnan Island.

 

[ISmellGold]

Just watched Pirates Behind the Legends: William Kidd
not bad,
Honestly never knew the Gist of the story untill watching.
To me it seems Kidd was pretty much based out of the American Colonys and had little to do with England.
The Sory pretty much made sense, up until the explanation of Madagasgar where the haul was supposedly split up.
Personally I think he stopped in Madagascar for provisions before he sailed back acoss the Atlantic.
Not sure if any booty was ever split up there.
Barbados might be a spot where there is something burried. You would probably have to do some research on the West Indies to get an exact island,
Most likely Hateras was the Island that was widely circulated as far as the map, and apparently something was recovered on Gardiners Island?
Wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple locations.
The thing that gets me about the story is, There are no details of the exact capture? In the documentary the say he was held for 2 years in prison, when I had heard 6 months? before he was shipped back to England? Strange. That at his trial men that were on the ship testified against Kidd? Where did these Witnesses materialize from, how did they make their way to England for the trial?
The Book about the Trial just seems fabricated to me, just to sell books.

Maybe I will research it further one day but most likely anything he burried has been recovered long ago.
Probablt the most interesting thing to find would be the French Passes that he suposedly?took as proof. Pretty Intersting Maybe I will do a little Research on Barbados.
😜

Happy Holidays
He was probably a fool for returning to Boston.
I guess it is possible something could be burried anywhere between Hateras and Barbados?
🤔
If ther is any ofKidds Treasure out there this would probably be my first Island I would start looking

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Probably take some time to dial it in though.

😁

 

[ISmellGold]

Just watched Pirates Behind the Legends: William Kidd
not bad,
Honestly never knew the Gist of the story untill watching.
To me it seems Kidd was pretty much based out of the American Colonys and had little to do with England.
The Sory pretty much made sense, up until the explanation of Madagasgar where the haul was supposedly split up.
Personally I think he stopped in Madagascar for provisions before he sailed back acoss the Atlantic.
Not sure if any booty was ever split up there.
Barbados might be a spot where there is something burried. You would probably have to do some research on the West Indies to get an exact island,
Most likely Hateras was the Island that was widely circulated as far as the map, and apparently something was recovered on Gardiners Island?
Wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple locations.
The thing that gets me about the story is, There are no details of the exact capture? In the documentary the say he was held for 2 years in prison, when I had heard 6 months? before he was shipped back to England? Strange. That at his trial men that were on the ship testified against Kidd? Where did these Witnesses materialize from, how did they make their way to England for the trial?
The Book about the Trial just seems fabricated to me, just to sell books.

Maybe I will research it further one day but most likely anything he burried has been recovered long ago.
Probablt the most interesting thing to find would be the French Passes that he suposedly?took as proof. Pretty Intersting Maybe I will do a little Research on Barbados.
😜

Happy Holidays
He was probably a fool for returning to Boston.
I guess it is possible something could be burried anywhere between Hateras and Barbados?
🤔
If ther is any ofKidds Treasure out there this would probably be my first Island I would start looking

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Probably take some time to dial it in though.

😁

After thinking about it, word of the capture of the ship would not of reached the Caribean, so Kidd would of had free reign among any of the Islands claimed by the British.
Most Likely his first stop after Madagascar most likely would of been Barbados, He probably was heading to Port Royal, would be my guess. He seemed to have a line of communication with Boston as well as England? So he must of Been Getting information from Port Royal.
I seem to remeber somebody posted a Kidd map of a Round Island, I pretty much dismissed it. But Nevis seems to fit the bill.

Nevis · St Kitts & Nevis

★★★★★ · Island

www.google.com

Probably would of stopped in Nevis on his way to Port Royal.Probably not a bad place to Bury some plunder for a rainy day?

I doubt he would of unloaded everything in Port Royal.

I am smelling Nevis
😁

 

[Bocaj]

Happy for

After thinking about it, word of the capture of the ship would not of reached the Caribean, so Kidd would of had free reign among any of the Islands claimed by the British.
Most Likely his first stop after Madagascar most likely would of been Barbados, He probably was heading to Port Royal, would be my guess. He seemed to have a line of communication with Boston as well as England? So he must of Been Getting information from Port Royal.
I seem to remeber somebody posted a Kidd map of a Round Island, I pretty much dismissed it. But Nevis seems to fit the bill.

Nevis · St Kitts & Nevis

★★★★★ · Island

www.google.com

Probably would of stopped in Nevis on his way to Port Royal.Probably not a bad place to Bury some plunder for a rainy day?

I doubt he would of unloaded everything in Port Royal.

I am smelling Nevis
😁

Good you can smell Nevis from that distance! In any case its has nothing in common with any of the maps. Treasure maps are primarily done for two reasons: to remind yourself or others where to find something hidden or to sell books or antiquities to make some money or fame. They are normally not done to confuse people! So if they are authentic the information on them is valid date to give the right place. You have to confirm every detail on that maps to make sure you are right.

No wishful thinking, otherwise you join the endless stream of looser who spend fortunes to find nothing.

People do mistakes when doing maps but not more than a few. So the island will have more or less the shape, the bays, the rocks, shallows, lagoon as described. if it says Turtles than they mean it. if it says 360 yards it will be more or less so. if the compass give a general NE orientation you can count on it to be true. W.K. was a quite experienced master of navigation, you won't find any error here. Some stuff like vegetation can change over 300 years but stones don't move and the direction of the island certainly not.

So do your homework take whatever island you look at and apply the maps, explain all the drawings and written text. Some of it you won't be able to verify without actually going there but many details can be checked out by satellite maps. Also narrow your search by the information provided:

• 'Turtles' means it's close to tropics and got sandy beaches.
• Single places marked with 'Wood(s)' means the rest of the island is quite dry so its rather in the subtropics with limited rainfall.
• 'Lagoon' means limited tidal range
• The general shape with the lagoon in the middle and lots of reefs on the outside of the 'U' shape almost certainly points to a volcanic origin with the island being part of a crater and most probable the structure will continue below the water.
• there are no houses etc marked so the island was probably uninhabited.
• The size of the lagoon and the marked stones etc points to a length between 1 and 3miles.
• 'smugglers cove' points to a populated trade center in the vicinity in those days.
• 'China sea' means either the name of the island (or island group) being known as 'China' in those days (S th China sea means the southern part of the island) or it is actually south China (never seen the name 'China sea' in any old map!)
• at least three wrecks means the island was close to a navigational route, the West of the island being shallow and with swells being able to break a ship that runs aground. Also probably used as shelter and to stock up (Turtles being a quite important source of fresh durable and tasty food) before a longer sea voyage
• the Lat and Longitude data points at least to a place in the northern hemisphere and east from whatever null-meridian they have used (most navigators used the Canary Islands as zero those days). It will be most definitely not in the Americas!
• the anchorage in the SW points to a sheltered and not to deep part with easy landing on a beach that is protected from the main swells. Seafloor being probably partly 'sand and coral' ('Turtles' mean sand beaches). Wind probably mostly from N to NE.

If you find any island that fulfills most of the above then its worth to look deeper..

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Just watched Pirates Behind the Legends: William Kidd
not bad,
Honestly never knew the Gist of the story untill watching.
To me it seems Kidd was pretty much based out of the American Colonys and had little to do with England.
The Sory pretty much made sense, up until the explanation of Madagasgar where the haul was supposedly split up.
Personally I think he stopped in Madagascar for provisions before he sailed back acoss the Atlantic.
Not sure if any booty was ever split up there.
Barbados might be a spot where there is something burried. You would probably have to do some research on the West Indies to get an exact island,
Most likely Hateras was the Island that was widely circulated as far as the map, and apparently something was recovered on Gardiners Island?
Wouldn't be surprised if there were multiple locations.
The thing that gets me about the story is, There are no details of the exact capture? In the documentary the say he was held for 2 years in prison, when I had heard 6 months? before he was shipped back to England? Strange. That at his trial men that were on the ship testified against Kidd? Where did these Witnesses materialize from, how did they make their way to England for the trial?
The Book about the Trial just seems fabricated to me, just to sell books.

Maybe I will research it further one day but most likely anything he burried has been recovered long ago.
Probablt the most interesting thing to find would be the French Passes that he suposedly?took as proof. Pretty Intersting Maybe I will do a little Research on Barbados.
😜

Happy Holidays
He was probably a fool for returning to Boston.
I guess it is possible something could be burried anywhere between Hateras and Barbados?
🤔
If ther is any ofKidds Treasure out there this would probably be my first Island I would start looking

Google Maps

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.

www.google.com

Probably take some time to dial it in though.

😁

The French passes are real. They were hidden by the British government and found by Ralph D. Paine in the archives many, many years after Kidd's trial. Read his book for the details. While they might have saved Kidd from piracy charges (and if they wouldn't, why would the prosecution suppress them?) they wouldn't have absolved Kidd from the murder charge.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[ISmellGold]

The French passes are real. They were hidden by the British government and found by Ralph D. Paine in the archives many, many years after Kidd's trial. Read his book for the details. While they might have saved Kidd from piracy charges (and if they wouldn't, why would the prosecution suppress them?) they wouldn't have absolved Kidd from the murder charge.

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

Been thinking about the "Documentary" on Kidd. I Noticed how much they mentioned alot of Pirates were in the slave trade. I think most likely Kidd was mostly a Slave Trader. Probably crossed the Alatantic with Melasses from Jamaica and traded it for Slaves in Madagascar.
I think what got him in trouble is he probably got into Piracy without exactly knowing what he was doing. Probably hit a few East India Trading Company ships and pissed some pretty heavy hitting stockholders off.
After looking at it, looks like he almost certainly ended up raiding trade ships, mostly cargo probably very little Gold & Silver.
From what happened to Henry Morgan, he probably unloaded most of his goods in Port Royal or North Carolina (Hateras Island). He was probably eventually captured by the Virginians much like Henry Morgan.
Probably did'nt have the loot to get out of the situation.
So after really thinking about it, I doubt Kidd ever burried anything. He was too fresh to the business,

As far as other pirates?

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Been thinking about the "Documentary" on Kidd. I Noticed how much they mentioned alot of Pirates were in the slave trade. I think most likely Kidd was mostly a Slave Trader. Probably crossed the Alatantic with Melasses from Jamaica and traded it for Slaves in Madagascar.
I think what got him in trouble is he probably got into Piracy without exactly knowing what he was doing. Probably hit a few East India Trading Company ships and pissed some pretty heavy hitting stockholders off.
After looking at it, looks like he almost certainly ended up raiding trade ships, mostly cargo probably very little Gold & Silver.
From what happened to Henry Morgan, he probably unloaded most of his goods in Port Royal or North Carolina (Hateras Island). He was probably eventually captured by the Virginians much like Henry Morgan.
Probably did'nt have the loot to get out of the situation.
So after really thinking about it, I doubt Kidd ever burried anything. He was too fresh to the business,

As far as other pirates?

I suggest you underestimate Capt. Kidd's experience as a mariner. As for pirates and the slave trade, some were former slaves (just as some of the buccaneers were Maroons). Capturing a slave ship and then disposing of the cargo would be a messy business. Captain Morgan was in Jamaica. I did not know he was in Virginia. Are you thinking of Blackbeard?

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[ISmellGold]

I suggest you underestimate Capt. Kidd's experience as a mariner. As for pirates and the slave trade, some were former slaves (just as some of the buccaneers were Maroons). Capturing a slave ship and then disposing of the cargo would be a messy business. Captain Morgan was in Jamaica. I did not know he was in Virginia. Are you thinking of Blackbeard?

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

Just going by one of the Supposed maps he left of Hateras Island. I figured he must of Raided or tried to raid another merchant ship closer to the American Colonies, and that is how he was captured.

You never hear the story of how he was captured?? I heard that the actually even arrested his wife to try and get to him??
He must of pissed the Stockholders of the East India Company off Fierce when he took that ship or ships??
An Interesting story, but teribly incomplete.
I dont think I undersestimated him.
The guy does look like a slave trader, looks more like he spent most of his time behind a desk, inside or something, not like a mariner??

That man kept his money in a bank, not burried on a beach.

 

[Randawg72]

Just watched Pirates Behind the Legends: William Kidd
not bad,

Hi ISG,
I watched it too. It's an interesting documentary, but too short (42 min) and inconclusive on some of the details.

 

[Randawg72]

• 'Turtles' means it's close to tropics and got sandy beaches.
• Single places marked with 'Wood(s)' means the rest of the island is quite dry so its rather in the subtropics with limited rainfall.
• 'Lagoon' means limited tidal range
• The general shape with the lagoon in the middle and lots of reefs on the outside of the 'U' shape almost certainly points to a volcanic origin with the island being part of a crater and most probable the structure will continue below the water.
• there are no houses etc marked so the island was probably uninhabited.
• The size of the lagoon and the marked stones etc points to a length between 1 and 3miles.
• 'smugglers cove' points to a populated trade center in the vicinity in those days.
• 'China sea' means either the name of the island (or island group) being known as 'China' in those days (S th China sea means the southern part of the island) or it is actually south China (never seen the name 'China sea' in any old map!)
• at least three wrecks means the island was close to a navigational route, the West of the island being shallow and with swells being able to break a ship that runs aground. Also probably used as shelter and to stock up (Turtles being a quite important source of fresh durable and tasty food) before a longer sea voyage
• the Lat and Longitude data points at least to a place in the northern hemisphere and east from whatever null-meridian they have used (most navigators used the Canary Islands as zero those days). It will be most definitely not in the Americas!
• the anchorage in the SW points to a sheltered and not to deep part with easy landing on a beach that is protected from the main swells. Seafloor being probably partly 'sand and coral' ('Turtles' mean sand beaches). Wind probably mostly from N to NE.

If you find any island that fulfills most of the above then its worth to look deeper..

Hi Bocaj,
Comprehensive list. It's hard to fault your logic, although I'm sure you would be quick to poo-poo my list of island criteria. You should also factor in Magnetic Declination.

 

[Bocaj]

Hi Bocaj,
Comprehensive list. It's hard to fault your logic, although I'm sure you would be quick to poo-poo my list of island criteria.

It would still be interesting to read you criteria else it's of no use to only say so.

View attachment 2186881

Can you show the whole map or at least the date?

You should also factor in Magnetic Declination.

It isn't really that significant close to the equator! Give it one point to the east or west and maybe another as margin of error on the maps compass you can get a maximum of 22.5deg variation.

In any case the general orientation will be NE and that discards almost all hypothetical Skeleton Islands suggested so far.

There are some places of extreme magnetic anomalies but those are known and marked on nautical charts. But even those wouldn't turn the island upside down like some suggestions!