The Treasure of Captain William Kidd.

[ISmellGold]

That's true. 327 years is a long time. But we'll never know if we don't look, right?
I need to plan my trip as well. Best of luck to you ISmellGold.

"May fortune favor the foolish"

If I lived in Greenwich, I would probably keep a sharp eye for anything unusual found.
Just snap a few pictures before you spend it.


Good Luck

 

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[Bocaj]

I agree why would you have a mirror with a skull and cross bones on it?

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Crow

I beg to differ! We tend to evaluate everything with our Hollywood trained and brainwashed brains.

The skull and bones only got exclusively associated with piracy much later. It is a symbol religious sects and especially Templar and Masons where using, in fact the black flag comes from the Templar fleet's battle flag. To find the symbol in some furniture in the 17th century doesn't really mean that much. In that time it would not have been strongly associated with piracy.

 

[Randawg72]

You are correct Bocaj,
As I noted, the skull and crossbones were most likely carved by later owners of the artifacts. Before 1700, pirates flew a plain black flag with/or without a red flag. The "Jolly Roger" pirate flag did not appear until the early 18th century.
Captain Kidd was a Privateer so the primary flag he flew was the "Red Ensign". Kidd also carried flags of rival nations, so when he approached a ship flying French colors, he flew a French Merchant flag.

 

[AstralDruid]

How come i never seen this section of Tnet before..... Brilliant stuff...
I have an old friend, a diving instructor in the med..... he claims to have a pretty good idea of where Rommel's gold is..WW2 loot.... A bit off topic , sorry, just got excited when i seen these threads ....

 

[Bocaj]

You are correct Bocaj,
As I noted, the skull and crossbones were most likely carved by later owners of the artifacts. Before 1700, pirates flew a plain black flag with/or without a red flag. The "Jolly Roger" pirate flag did not appear until the early 18th century.
Captain Kidd was a Privateer so the primary flag he flew was the "Red Ensign". Kidd also carried flags of rival nations, so when he approached a ship flying French colors, he flew a French Merchant flag.

View attachment 2183731 View attachment 2183735

I wouldn't be so sure it was carved in later but was original made like that. Robert Livingston was the patriarch of founding grand-master of free masons in the New world (New York). And by chance the sponsor together with New York's governor Bellomont (see attached contract)

Both became embarrassed by Kidd's capture of the QM. I personally think there was more to that story. My guess (after a long research) is that he was send to bring Avery's huge treasure to New England and that he found and re-buried it somewhere else after he was a burned man because his crew forced him to take the QM. What a tragedy: he could hardly tell them that the haul he was after was so much more worth!

 

[Randawg72]

Hi Bocaj,
Colonel Robert Livingston was a friend of Kidd's and did help him to secure backers, raise funds, and plan his privateering venture.
Henry Avery's raid and treasure haul on the Grand Mughal fleet was about seven months prior to Kidd's departure in April of 1696. There's no record of Captain Kidd ever meeting or interacting with Avery. Why do you believe Avery buried his loot, and what in your research connects Kidd to Avery and his treasure?

 

[Randawg72]

How come i never seen this section of Tnet before..... Brilliant stuff...
I have an old friend, a diving instructor in the med..... he claims to have a pretty good idea of where Rommel's gold is..WW2 loot.... A bit off topic , sorry, just got excited when i seen these threads ....

Hi AstralDruid,
I'm not exactly sure how brilliant this thread has been, but we could always use a fresh opinion.

"I would rather light a candle than curse the darkness"

 

[Bocaj]

Hi Bocaj,
Colonel Robert Livingston was a friend of Kidd's and did help him to secure backers, raise funds, and plan his privateering venture.
Henry Avery's raid and treasure haul on the Grand Mughal fleet was about seven months prior to Kidd's departure in April of 1696. There's no record of Captain Kidd ever meeting or interacting with Avery. Why do you believe Avery buried his loot, and what in your research connects Kidd to Avery and his treasure?

Logic mostly. He couldn't get his hands on 100k pounds otherwise. His whole story makes no sense otherwise. Also see https://www.treasurenet.com/threads/in-search-of-captain-averys-treasure.695054/page-10 in regard to the Avery letters...

W.K. was tasked to hunt the pirates of Madagascar, which of course Avery was the star of. He just did the heist of the century or more. Imagine the significance of what he did!

There is no record that he ever met Avery neither but why would he need to? Someone of Avery's crew or a confidant with knowledge where he buried his treasure on the way or some map would do it as well. He sailed almost exactly the same spots that Avery did so the probability is quite high. Not a coincidence neither as he was tasked to hunt them.

Also there is the possibility that he just pretended to have that knowledge to save his neck as an act of desperation (which would be bad for us) but somehow I doubt that, for me it seems he was a naive fool being used by people like Livingstone and double crossed in the end. A tragic figure really.

 

[Randawg72]

Interesting take,
But your assumption is a little weak. Unlike most pirates, William Kidd was arrested and put on trial, so the details of his travels are fairly well documented. The stash that Kidd had tried to use as leverage to bargain for his life was valued at £100,000 pounds. This coincides with the estimated plunder taken from the QM. Henry Avery's hoard was reportedly worth over £600,000 pounds (The equivalent of £115 million today). If Kidd actually had access to Avery's treasure, then why didn't he mention it when his life was at stake?
Also, Avery had no reason to bury any of his treasure. After the "heist", Avery was so wealthy that he immediately "retired" from piracy and lived the rest of his life in very comfortable obscurity.

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Interesting take,
But your assumption is a little weak. Unlike most pirates, William Kidd was arrested and put on trial, so the details of his travels are fairly well documented. The stash that Kidd had tried to use as leverage to bargain for his life was valued at £100,000 pounds. This coincides with the estimated plunder taken from the QM. Henry Avery's hoard was reportedly worth over £600,000 pounds (The equivalent of £115 million today). If Kidd actually had access to Avery's treasure, then why didn't he mention it when his life was at stake?
Also, Avery had no reason to bury any of his treasure. After the "heist", Avery was so wealthy that he immediately "retired" from piracy and lived the rest of his life in very comfortable obscurity.

Randawg72 - Many pirates were brought to trial. The records of those cases are some of the best documentation we have about those lives and times. The Library of Congress has over 50 books and pamphlets on-line that make for interesting reading.

As I understand the story, Capt. Avery was cheated out of his ill-gotten plunder and died in poverty.

If Capt. Kidd had access to a vast treasure, why would he have buried it and returned home?

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo

 

[Randawg72]

Hi Bookaroo,
Fair enough. But Kidd's trial was arguably among the most famous and publicized. Everyone knows that Henry Avery's fate is purely speculation, but I'd like to think that the King of The Pirates retired in luxury. And with all of his powerful backers, Kidd obviously expected a full pardon and planned to return for his hidden treasure.
But you skirted the issue. Do you believe William Kidd had anything to do with Avery or his treasure?

 

[Old Bookaroo]

Hi Bookaroo,
Fair enough. But Kidd's trial was arguably among the most famous and publicized. Everyone knows that Henry Avery's fate is purely speculation, but I'd like to think that the King of The Pirates retired in luxury. And with all of his powerful backers, Kidd obviously expected a full pardon and planned to return for his hidden treasure.
But you skirted the issue. Do you believe William Kidd had anything to do with Avery or his treasure?

Randawg72: I did not intend to skirt anything. Yes, Kidd's trial is well-known. Had the British government not hidden the French passes (odd that they kept them for being introduced as evidence, yet didn't destroy them) he might not have been convicted of piracy. The murder charge is, of course, another matter.

I don't believe there is a Captain Kidd hidden treasure. He simply wasn't a successful pirate or privateer - his troubles stem from the fact that he couldn't secure a prize. No purchase, no pay.

As for Avery, I'll accept the story that he returned to England and was cheated out of his plunder. Taken by pirates, if you will...

Good luck to all,

The Old Bookaroo