The Peralta Stones

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI my friend cubber: check the hood ornament, they used a modernized form of a sailing ship.

In any event the lights were interchangeable in those days. I believe they were approx. 7" in dia.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I don't know that they made a 1939 Plymouth "Voyager". In any case, every picture I have seen of the 1939 models, the head lights are in the fender.

So far, everyone is running into the same problem I did, which is shown in the cropped picture I showed a few posts back. The side grill in the hood is not the same.

Paul,

I was just saying I had been down this road before. Believe I posted the results somewhere. If so, that could provide a shortcut for your own search.
On the other hand, I have it on a hard copy.......somewhere. I think everyone who has the time should look into the question.

I will look for the post.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

I guess I don't see what you're seeing in that grill Joe - the 3 links I posted look identical to me - they have the same number of "ridges" and identical shape from what I can tell.

There's a difference in angle and resolution which comes into play, but I don't see the difference between this one and the old B&W photo.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

You are on the money. I just needed to look closer. Bottom line, it's still going to be aroungd 7" across.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

You are on the money. I just needed to look closer. Bottom line, it's still going to be aroungd 7" across.

Take care,

Joe

You're right about the headlamp size, but there's some definite issues with trying to get accurate measurements from that old photo. The angle of the photo if not corrected for in the right way can make a significant shift in the final length and height. For example, can you tell from the photo exactly where the end of the top stone lines up with the right headlamp if the view were from directly in front? I could imagine it being right at the edge or several inches either way. Heck, even the sunlight and shadows caused can make it look one way or another too. Dang them for not taking a photo HEAD ON!!!!

I think my co-worker's dad is a vintage car collector - I may ask around and see if anyone they know has a 1939 Olds and see if I can come look at it with a camera and some "props" and see if I can get a "best" estimate.

Back to the actual stone maps at the musuem - anyone know what their dimensions are exactly? How about some of you that saw the stone maps years ago at the Flagg museum - what were those measurements?

I'm sorry for "hijacking" this thread a little bit and I'm sure most of this is tedium ad nauseum for most of you. I'm trying to work on a theory though, and need a little help.

Thanks

 

[somehiker]

Hi Paul:
Try Roger.He mentioned having done some "rubbings".If he did any...full face...he might be able to give some dimensions.
Any set of reproductions from the original moulds should do as well.

Regards:SH.

 

[BenThereDoneThat]

Paul,

You are on the money. I just needed to look closer. Bottom line, it's still going to be aroungd 7" across.

Take care,

Joe

You're right about the headlamp size, but there's some definite issues with trying to get accurate measurements from that old photo. The angle of the photo if not corrected for in the right way can make a significant shift in the final length and height. For example, can you tell from the photo exactly where the end of the top stone lines up with the right headlamp if the view were from directly in front? I could imagine it being right at the edge or several inches either way. Heck, even the sunlight and shadows caused can make it look one way or another too. Dang them for not taking a photo HEAD ON!!!!

I think my co-worker's dad is a vintage car collector - I may ask around and see if anyone they know has a 1939 Olds and see if I can come look at it with a camera and some "props" and see if I can get a "best" estimate.

Back to the actual stone maps at the musuem - anyone know what their dimensions are exactly? How about some of you that saw the stone maps years ago at the Flagg museum - what were those measurements?

I'm sorry for "hijacking" this thread a little bit and I'm sure most of this is tedium ad nauseum for most of you. I'm trying to work on a theory though, and need a little help.

Thanks

I would think Jim H would have the measurement info sitting right next to him!!!! if I were making reproduction of the originals I would certainly make my self a copy.

Also it appears the hood on the car was propped open slighty, Maybe to make the top stone map sit up straight........

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

If you just enter "headlights for 1939 oldsmobile" in your search engine, you will get quite a bit of information on the headlights. Here is one of the things I picked up:

[Dress up your car with these new chrome headlight rims.The price is for 1 ring/rim.You can buy two for twice the price. Fits right or left side. As you can see they fit nice on my 1939 Oldsmobile headlight buckett. Will fit Chevrolet and probably Pontiac . With the ring closed the side that fits the bucket is 8", the side that fits the lamp is 7 1/8". Allow 2-3 weeks for delivery. You can order more than one.

Street Rod , Rat Rod , Chevrolet, Oldsmobile, Chrysler, Ford ,Pontiac Buick, Truck


Thanks, 39olds.]
_____________________

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies & Gentlemen: I FLATLY, AND ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO ADMIT THAT EITHER RFJJ OR CUBBER IS CORRECT, and they are. hehhehheh

But what honest cop could afford an Oldsmobile in those days? When I entered the military in 41 I received the magnificent sum of $ 21 a month.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. The matter of the Oldsmobile is precisely what I have been talking about in here. NEVER start your search with a preconceived factor, it tends to blind you to others that are dependent upon an open mind.

It is human nature to look for what backs up your idea.

 

[Cubfan64]

Ladies & Gentlemen: I FLATLY, AND ABSOLUTELY REFUSE TO ADMIT THAT EITHER RFJJ OR CUBBER IS CORRECT, and they are. hehhehheh

But what honest cop could afford an Oldsmobile in those days? When I entered the military in 41 I received the magnificent sum of $ 21 a month.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. The matter of the Oldsmobile is precisely what I have been talking about in here. NEVER start your search with a preconceived factor, it tends to blind you to others that are dependent upon an open mind.

It is human nature to look for what backs up your idea.

Hi RDT - maybe he wasn't so honest? :P

And Joe - you should know by now that I already had all that information on the headlamps but thanks

 

[Cubfan64]

Was looking on a language forum (WordReference.com) and found the following post from 'Tignas', 12/14/2005:

Esta Bereda es Peligroza - Yo Boy 18 Lugares - Busca el Mapa - Busca el Coazon
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The above phrase appears on a document which dates from 1650. The language is Castilian, as spoken in the Americas during the Spanish Colonial period. Can anyone accurately translate this to English? Thanks.

The only other posts by 'Tignas' on the forum came a couple years later. These refer to a 1900 document, but whether the later document references the 1650 document referred to above isn't clear:

3/19/2008: Jongo
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While reading a family history, recorded in 1900 by an 86 year old Spanish gentleman, I encountered the word "jongo." The word was used with regard to an alignment of stones and a fruit tree. I'm confused as to the meaning of jongo. Has anyone encountered this word? 3/20/2008: I suspect it might refer to a triangle arrangement.

3/20/2008: Los Mirays
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While reading through a family history, written in 1900 by an old Spanish gentleman, I encountered a place name "Los Mirays." It is believed to be located in the United States, north of the Grand Canyon. Is anyone familiar with this place name?

It would be interesting to see the 1650 document 'Tignas' refers to (and possibly the 1900 as well, if they are related). If the 1650 document truly exists, much of the text appearing on the 'Peralta stones' seems to have been copied from it.

Would it surprise you to learn that the poster was referring to the Peralta Stones as the 1650 "document?"

 

[rfjj]

RDT

That Olds was approximately 10 yrs. old when that picture was taken. T. could have bought it used along that time frame at a price a policeman could afford. It kind of looks like a beater in that picture. Maybe its just the picture thats a beater .

Ralph Johnson

 

[Springfield]

Was looking on a language forum (WordReference.com) and found the following post from 'Tignas', 12/14/2005:

Esta Bereda es Peligroza - Yo Boy 18 Lugares - Busca el Mapa - Busca el Coazon
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The above phrase appears on a document which dates from 1650. The language is Castilian, as spoken in the Americas during the Spanish Colonial period. Can anyone accurately translate this to English? Thanks.

Would it surprise you to learn that the poster was referring to the Peralta Stones as the 1650 "document?"

Yes.

 

[gollum]

Was looking on a language forum (WordReference.com) and found the following post from 'Tignas', 12/14/2005:

Esta Bereda es Peligroza - Yo Boy 18 Lugares - Busca el Mapa - Busca el Coazon
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The above phrase appears on a document which dates from 1650. The language is Castilian, as spoken in the Americas during the Spanish Colonial period. Can anyone accurately translate this to English? Thanks.

Would it surprise you to learn that the poster was referring to the Peralta Stones as the 1650 "document?"

Yes.

Me Too

 

[somehiker]

Not at all.....SH.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

RFJJ: quit being so correct, and logical. heehehehh Another simple but excellent point. gracias my friend.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Going by this picture, I would guess that this stone is no longer than 16-16.5 inches:

I would not be surprised if it wasn't posted by someone who knew the story of the Stone Maps, perhaps in preparation for a future book, promoting a new history for the maps. I keep thinking we are in for a big dose of Santa Fe, NM sometime soon.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Jim Hatt wrote

Roy,

I do not see where the burden of proof is on Mike and/or myself to provide evidence of who made them.
The stones EXIST. Somebody made them that's for sure. We are only presenting evidence that supports the train of thought that they were not fabricated as some kind of hoax. You are not presenting any kind of evidence at all! Only "Gut Feelings" and ideas that are not supported by anything.

Do you have any supporting evidence that Storm or anyone else made them?

As far as the Latin heart is concerned... Your lack of knowledge about it's history or reluctance to accept it, is not evidence of anything.
The physical fact that the original heart will not fill the cavity it sits in, without the Latin Heart under it cannot be ignored.

I am surprised that you won't even venture a GUESS for the name of a maker, but yet, you wanted me to name a maker; I have already told you much of the circumstantial evidence, you can find more on Storm in books and articles, letters etc. I also provided you with three (four if we count Father Polzer) expert opinions on the Peralta Stones, and you have provided only your own assault on the people who did the tests and their methods, no contrary expert opinion (published and tagged with the name(s) of the persons making the opinions). There is a great deal I don't know about the Peralta Stones, and apparently you are not willing to provide a free education. I can't say that I blame you either, for there are people who would love to pick your brain and may well be hoping that you will post some critical info due to this debate so I can understand why you seem reluctant to put everything on the table.

Gollum wrote

<snip>

<read Gollums earlier post above if anyone is lost here>

I put the term "Spanish Heiroglyphics" in quotes, because that is the way they were described by the older USGS maps and several other sources; I am well aware of what real heiroglyphics are, and that the Spanish did not use them. You have made yet another assumption on Storm too - that he would have gone to some effort to make sure they got FOUND, when he did nothing of the sort to help highlight the fake stone inscriptions he made in the Superstitions, and I would really hesitate to call that highway "deserted" BTW. That site was actually a pretty good one to plant such things, after all they did get found. I suggest (if you don't already own it) find a copy of "Thunder God's Gold" by Barry Storm and NOT the 1945 edition but the later 1967 version, you may find it interesting with Storm's version of the stone maps and their meanings. IF he made them, he is telling what they were supposed to mean.

There are many possibilities - it is even possible that the stones found in 1949 were copies of OLDER stone maps! About the only thing we can safely rule out is that they are not made of plastic! <I have to trust you fellows on this particular point too - since I haven't ever held the stones in hand, so could be wrong even on this! >

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[somehiker]

Hi Joe:
" I would not be surprised if it wasn't posted by someone who knew the story of the Stone Maps, perhaps in preparation for a future book, promoting a new history for the maps. I keep thinking we are in for a big dose of Santa Fe, NM sometime soon."

I had had a similar thought.Seems to be a method used for those promoting both new and old "histories".Multiple identities that support and supply corroborating evidence to one theorist or another,especially when they vanish shortly thereafter .Vague references to "rumors" that are floated,then repeated as necessary as probable evidence of "salting".Lots more that I haven't got time to mention....gotta get to work.

I could be wrong,of course,but I will go with the "wrong date" as the likely answer.

Regards:SH.

 

[Cubfan64]

Springfield, Gollum, SH and anyone else interested...

"Tignas" is well aquainted with the Stone Maps (Peralta Stones) and according to him he indeed was referring directly to them as the "documents" on the WorldReference language forum. At this point, the hope that there was another document out there with the same language as the stones appears to be nil.

I pointed out a link to this forum and the posts that led to why I had searched for him. It's strictly up to him if he chooses to post here or not.

That's pretty much all I can say.