The Peralta Stones

[Cubfan64]

This is from my 8 X 10 copy of the original picture used for Dr. Glover's book. As you can see, it's before the picture was "cleaned up" for publication:

I looked into the dimensions of the headlight and found that the stones in the picture are around eighteen inch's across......as I recall. I have the information around here, somewhere.

Hope this information helps everyone.

Take care,

Joe

Any car experts out there have an idea what make/model/year the vehicle is?

 

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[Jim Hatt]

Take, for instance, Michael Bilbrey. We have nothing but his word regarding how he came to possess the Stone Crosses, SO, we need to look at the person and his character. He WAS convicted of fraud in whatever snakeoil scheme he was involved in (having nothing to do with the Stone Crosses). THAT tells us something about his character, and makes me look much more skeptically at his story.

Same goes for Crazy Jake.

Best-Mike

Point well taken Mike

I may have read too much emphasis on your comments about Jake and Bilbrey offered only as a character comparison. I understand your skepticism about Bilbrey's story about finding the crosses. But if you ever have the opportunity to spend some time on the ground that the crosses apply to. You might not be so skeptical about THEM.

Best,

Jim

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

To me, primarily because of the blatant Tumlinson (conspirator? or dupe?) neon-red flags, I still sense a fundamental problem with these stones.

I am still waiting to hear what these red flags are that you keep referring to. There are theories that have been put forth by Azmula, but I have seen ZERO hard evidence that Tumlinson did anything but exactly what he said he did. You still have yet to show anything that could be substantiated.

.... Sorry Spring, but that dog don't hunt. You keep trotting him out, but he never brings back a duck! HAHAHA

If you can show me ONE time that something Tumlinson said has been PROVEN to be false, I will give you the benefit over Tumlinson, but so far I have to stick with his word over your postulations. Not trying to be a dick, but facts are facts, and the fact is that Travis Tumlinson by all accounts never got caught in any lies insofar as I have ever seen. Never was busted with some attempt to defraud anyone (i.e. Michael Bilbrey or "Crazy" Jake). He seems for all intents and purposes to be nothing more than a retired Police Officer from Hood River, Oregon who found some very interesting Stone Maps.

Best-Mike

Mike, fortunately I don't have a duck in this race. I know that many dedicated searchers have spent years pondering these stones and their purported link to the so-called 'lost Dutchman' mine allegedly located in the Superstitions or thereabouts. I also know that those who have strong feelings about the subject will defend their investment vigorously, filtering out opposing ideas that don't fall in line with the lore, or at least with their personal beliefs. It's human nature and understandable. I've looked at the subject curiously with pretty much a clean slate, but with enough experience in other areas to form some observations. I can't 'prove' any of my current opinions any more than you or anyone else can 'prove' your conclusions, no matter how ardently you support them. Hard for me to ignore:

• Tumlinson family connection. Pegleg Tumlinson's earlier treasure hunting exploits in Texas and Mexico, his association with J. Frank Dobie, etc. may be a 'coincidence', but all coincidences of this magnitude bear scrutiny and lots of it.
• Travis Tumlinson's fortunate toe-stub in the middle of the night on an exposed treasure map protruding from the desert. Another 'coincidence'. Lucky events like this are big in treasure magazines, but not so likely in real life.
• The 'Dangerous trail, 18 locations' text passage, complete with the inexcusable spelling error, all of which may well have originated in other earlier documents, possibly referring to something in Sonora.
• The 'Santa Fe' reference, again with a fundamental spelling error. What does Santa Fe have to do with central Arizona? People brilliant enough to create a series of unsolvable 'treasure maps' such as these stones would seemingly not make simple spelling errors.
• The horse and witch artwork. It just plain looks phony for a 'Jesuit treasure map' to me. Why the graphics? Seems out of period, out of place and contrived.
• One of the biggest questions troubling me is why the stones were buried in the desert in the first place. I simply don't accept your earlier rationalization that it was a security issue. Logistically, I really don't see the advantage, but I certainly see the drawbacks. If such a 'treasure map' needs to be permanently recorded on stone tablets by the Jesuits, it seems to me that under the floor of a mission would be a more secure resting place than out in the desert. By the way, isn't there some talk about Pegleg finding the stones at a mission in Mexico?

These stones are puzzling and it seems, one way or another, someone wanted them to see the light of day in Arizona near the 'lost Dutchman mine' venue. My working model is that the stones either 1) Are a coded message leading to something of value located somewhere in Sonora, Arizona or New Mexico; 2) or a prank of some sort pulled off by persons unknown for reasons unknown.

Mike, your defense of Travis Tumlinson is admirable if not irrelevent. I can't prove anything about the man, and all you can offer is circumstantial evidence and hearsay. Granted, you build a strong case, but you may be wrong. Those pesky 'coincidences' remain tough to swallow. As I said above, I'm not vested with this yarn at all - just a curious bystander.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

Lake Havasu City is a hotbed of classic car collectors. I asked that question of some of them and did some searches on the Internet as well. It turns out that all of the headlights from that era and style were the same dimensions.

Mike,

People keep using the term "snake oil", which promotes a "harmless" image of what Bilbrey was selling. He was selling a "cancer cure" to people who were dying from the disease.

Having taken care of many patients dying from cancer, pedelling that kind of false hope is as low as it can get, IMHO.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Jim Hatt]

Springfield,,


you said: "Tumlinson family connection. Pegleg Tumlinson's earlier treasure hunting exploits in Texas and Mexico, his association with J. Frank Dobie,"

This subject has always bothered me. My research has disclosed that there were almost as many "Pegleg's" as there were "Dutchman" back in the "day".

Do you ... (or anyone else) have any evidence that the "Pegleg" Dobie wrote about, was the same one that was "supposed" to be related to Travis Tumlinson?

Thanks,

Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

As far as I know, Dobie wrote about "Pegleg Smith". Travis' grandfather was John Jackson "Peg Leg" Tumlinson. His father was John Jackson, Jr.

This information has been posted any number of times on most of the forums that deal with the LDM and the Stone Maps.

Take care,

Joe

 

[rfjj]

Cubfan ref your question about the car: based on the side grills and hood ornament , it could be a 39 Oldsmobile, give or take

Ralph Johnson

 

[gollum]

Spring,

I don't know where you got the "in the middle of the night" part of Tumlinson finding the stones from?!? I have NEVER read any version of the find that said anything that could remotely be construed as finding them at night. A simple look at the picture of the stones on his bumper that were supposed to have been taken right after the find says it was daytime.

I think you read too much into the Dobie subject as well (but Joe already hit that one).

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

As far as I know, Dobie wrote about "Pegleg Smith". Travis' grandfather was John Jackson "Peg Leg" Tumlinson. His father was John Jackson, Jr.

This information has been posted any number of times on most of the forums that deal with the LDM and the Stone Maps.

Take care,

Joe

My copy of Coronado's Children refers to 'Peg Leg Tumlinson', and a numer of his exploits.

 

[Springfield]

Spring,

I don't know where you got the "in the middle of the night" part of Tumlinson finding the stones from?!? I have NEVER read any version of the find that said anything that could remotely be construed as finding them at night. A simple look at the picture of the stones on his bumper that were supposed to have been taken right after the find says it was daytime.

I think you read too much into the Dobie subject as well (but Joe already hit that one).

Best-Mike

I don't want to become an advesary. I know you are defending the faith, and I'm sure you feel you are on solid footing. I'm merely looking at this thing as an outsider, noticing 'problems' from my perspective. I could be way off track and I can be swayed with a conclusive arguement, but I haven't seen it yet. This is a common dilemma with the 'lost treasure' legends - you follow the well-beaten path or you seek out the roads less traveled. The proof is in the pudding, and so far, to my knowledge, the Peralta stones have not been solved. That tells me there is something wrong with the data.

Dobie was an interesting person who certainly did a fine job of putting 'lost treasure' legends into our hands. See post #1841.

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,,


you said: "Tumlinson family connection. Pegleg Tumlinson's earlier treasure hunting exploits in Texas and Mexico, his association with J. Frank Dobie,"

This subject has always bothered me. My research has disclosed that there were almost as many "Pegleg's" as there were "Dutchman" back in the "day".

Do you ... (or anyone else) have any evidence that the "Pegleg" Dobie wrote about, was the same one that was "supposed" to be related to Travis Tumlinson?

Thanks,

Jim

No, but some genealogical research might turn up the association. I wouldn't be surprised if some tenacious researcher hasn't looked into it - in fact, I'd be surprised if someone hasn't.

 

[gollum]

Spring,

I don't know where you got the "in the middle of the night" part of Tumlinson finding the stones from?!? I have NEVER read any version of the find that said anything that could remotely be construed as finding them at night. A simple look at the picture of the stones on his bumper that were supposed to have been taken right after the find says it was daytime.

I think you read too much into the Dobie subject as well (but Joe already hit that one).

Best-Mike

I don't want to become an advesary. I know you are defending the faith, and I'm sure you feel you are on solid footing. I'm merely looking at this thing as an outsider, noticing 'problems' from my perspective. I could be way off track and I can be swayed with a conclusive arguement, but I haven't seen it yet. This is a common dilemma with the 'lost treasure' legends - you follow the well-beaten path or you seek out the roads less traveled. The proof is in the pudding, and so far, to my knowledge, the Peralta stones have not been solved. That tells me there is something wrong with the data.

Dobie was an interesting person who certainly did a fine job of putting 'lost treasure' legends into our hands. See post #1841.

Nothing adversarial at all,

Not defending the faith either. ALL I am doing is using facts and logic to look at a situation. Two simple things. BOTH your theory and what is currently believed have no facts to back either of them. Does not matter if Pegleg and Travis are related or not. There is absolutely ZERO verifiable proof that Travis Tumlinson didn't find the stones exactly how and where he said he did. There is actually loads of circumstantial evidence that says he did just what he said.

I am not hung up on what I believe. If you had ANY verifiable evidence that showed Tumlinson lied about how, when, or where he got the stones, I would change my beliefs. Simple as that, but the fact is you don't. Nobody else does either. If you read everything that I have stated over the last six years or so regarding the Stone Maps, you would see that my beliefs have dramatically changed based on FACTS I have found and corroborated from other sources.

Like I stated previously, I use simple logic and facts to arrive at what I believe.

Best-Mike

 

[Cubfan64]

Springfield,,


you said: "Tumlinson family connection. Pegleg Tumlinson's earlier treasure hunting exploits in Texas and Mexico, his association with J. Frank Dobie,"

This subject has always bothered me. My research has disclosed that there were almost as many "Pegleg's" as there were "Dutchman" back in the "day".

Do you ... (or anyone else) have any evidence that the "Pegleg" Dobie wrote about, was the same one that was "supposed" to be related to Travis Tumlinson?

Thanks,

Jim

No, but some genealogical research might turn up the association. I wouldn't be surprised if some tenacious researcher hasn't looked into it - in fact, I'd be surprised if someone hasn't.

For anyone that has an Ancestry.com membership, here's something to at least get you started...

http://trees.ancestry.com/tree/7880688/person/-358272061

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

I looked into Tumlinson's ancestry some time ago. There is the story in Coronado's Children, by Dobie, but it's actually a single story centered around a hole he helped dig at "Espantosa Lake". Some kind of date around that story would be helpful, or a first and middle name.

You would think that John Jackson Tumlinson would be a good bet to be Dobie's "Pegleg", but the evidence needs a little fleshing out for me. Quien sabe?

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Ralph,

"based on the side grills and hood ornament , it could be a 39 Oldsmobile, give or take"

The 39 Old's is very close, but the side grill is different in all the pictures I have seen.

Nice call and you could be right.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

Ladies & Gentlemen: since I have no iron in the fire, I am free to speculate with no previous commitments mentally to prove.

The Jesuits were famous for misleading data. ¿ suppose , just suppose, that the
8 Th marker is the key take off point, not the end of the line?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

Just to the east of the eighth marker, there is an X. By one of those strange coincidences that occur with regularity on my map, there is a sealed mine at that location.

Nice catch,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote <to our amigo Springfield>

If you had ANY verifiable evidence that showed Tumlinson lied about how, when, or where he got the stones, I would change my beliefs.

Is that the only thing that could change your beliefs? Is it not possible that Tumlinson honestly and earnestly believed the stone maps were genuine, but was duped? Or is that scenario just not possible? Was Tumlinson just too smart to be fooled by a set of hoax maps? I find it interesting that you key your belief on Tumlinson so heavily, if not wholly.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI cholla butt, my friend: Is it still sealed?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Gollum wrote <to our amigo Springfield>

If you had ANY verifiable evidence that showed Tumlinson lied about how, when, or where he got the stones, I would change my beliefs.

Is that the only thing that could change your beliefs? Is it not possible that Tumlinson honestly and earnestly believed the stone maps were genuine, but was duped? Or is that scenario just not possible? Was Tumlinson just too smart to be fooled by a set of hoax maps? I find it interesting that you key your belief on Tumlinson so heavily, if not wholly.
Oroblanco

Sorry Roy,

But you seem to be ignoring a major part of the story for Travis to have been duped. He FOUND the stones. He took them to Charlie Miller's House where Charlie helped him clean them. Miller even mentioned that the grooves still had little roots sticking out of them when he saw them.

So........who duped Tumlinson? If he said that he found them buried in the ground, then, THAT would mean he lied about where he got them from. Are you suggesting his grandfather duped him? I don't understand. WHO? Are you saying that they were made and buried in the 1800s, and he found them and believed they were real. That's not being duped.

JEEEEEEEZUS ROY,

I think I have explained it QUITE sufficiently SEVERAL TIMES:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,41448.msg2373744.html#msg2373744

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,41448.msg2373855.html#msg2373855

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,41448.msg2373863.html#msg2373863

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,41448.msg2374474.html#msg2374474

I would ask you to read those posts, but you seem to take offense when I ask you to do that, buuuuuut those posts will answer your question.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

....................and YES! For me to disbelieve the story as told by the first known owner of the Stone Maps, who has NEVER been shown to have lied about anything regarding the Stone Maps (JEEZUS, how many times have I repeated that statement), I would definitely have to see evidence that either he was mistaken or he lied. Nobody's maybes, what ifs, might haves, and coulda beens won't do the trick.

Best-Mike