The Peralta Stones

[Oroblanco]

Mike your logic is impeccably, twisted. Tumlinson could have been a totally 100% honest person, who found those stones exactly as he claimed he did. I have no reason to think otherwise. They could still have been modern creations when he found them. Roots grow pretty fast amigo, it doesn't take a century for them to grow onto a rock in the ground. If they are modern, that doesn't make Tumlinson a liar, cheat or participant in the scam - it makes him a victim.

Gollum wrote

So........who duped Tumlinson?

The creator of the stones, if they are modern works instead of 163 years old. Isn't that part obvious to you?

Gollum also wrote

....................and YES! For me to disbelieve the story as told by the first known owner of the Stone Maps, who has NEVER been shown to have lied about anything regarding the Stone Maps (JEEZUS, how many times have I repeated that statement), I would definitely have to see evidence that either he was mistaken or he lied. Nobody's maybes, what ifs, might haves, and coulda beens won't do the trick.

You are repeating un-necessarily, read above statements; Tumlinson could have been utterly honest and forthright, and have been the first VICTIM. No need for Tumlinson to lie about anything!
Oroblanco

 

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[Jim Hatt]

Something to consider Roy,

If "someone" buried the "fake" (for loss of a better word) maps where Tumlinson found them. How do we explain the Latin heart that Charlie Miller found (some unspecified distance north of where Tumlinson said he found the maps) years after Tumlinson gave up looking for more pieces of the maps?

How do we also explain that it takes both... The original heart stone and the Latin Heart stone to fill the heart shaped cavity in the upper trail map?

If the cavity were made for only one heart stone, then why was it carved deep enough (a lot of extra work) for both stone hearts?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm There has to be some kind of clue there somewhere

Best,

Jim

 

[gollum]

Mike your logic is impeccably, twisted. Tumlinson could have been a totally 100% honest person, who found those stones exactly as he claimed he did. I have no reason to think otherwise. They could still have been modern creations when he found them. Roots grow pretty fast amigo, it doesn't take a century for them to grow onto a rock in the ground. If they are modern, that doesn't make Tumlinson a liar, cheat or participant in the scam - it makes him a victim.

Gollum wrote

So........who duped Tumlinson?

The creator of the stones, if they are modern works instead of 163 years old. Isn't that part obvious to you?

Gollum also wrote

....................and YES! For me to disbelieve the story as told by the first known owner of the Stone Maps, who has NEVER been shown to have lied about anything regarding the Stone Maps (JEEZUS, how many times have I repeated that statement), I would definitely have to see evidence that either he was mistaken or he lied. Nobody's maybes, what ifs, might haves, and coulda beens won't do the trick.

You are repeating un-necessarily, read above statements; Tumlinson could have been utterly honest and forthright, and have been the first VICTIM. No need for Tumlinson to lie about anything!
Oroblanco

Jim,

I see now that Roy is saying the stones may have been made in the 1920s or 1930s. Who do you think made them Roy? You still working on Ted De Grazia? I did an exhaustive search of every De Grazia piece of art I could find, but not one of his pieces that contain horses look ANYTHING like the horse on the stone. Ted De Grazia had a very distinctive style. I can't see a bit of him in anything on the stones...................or maybe Roy is hitting us with an entirely new angle?

Best-Mike

 

[Jim Hatt]

Whatever he comes up with Mike, it is still going to be very hard to include the Latin Heart into the scenario.
It was found in a different place, by a different person and at a different point in history.
But... I it was just the right thickness to fill the extra space in the heart shaped cavity with the original heart stone.


If anyone in this discussion, goes up to the SMHS Museum when the stones will be laying out on the open later this month.
Place the heart stone in the cavity and look at all the empty space left over. Now... There will not be enough space for another heart the same thickness as the original heart. But the according to the taped interview I have. The Latin heart was just a bit thinner than the original heart stone, and together they both would have filled the cavity perfectly.

That's a real head-scratcher!

Best,

Jim

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola Jim,
I am not 100% convinced the Latin Heart is even supposed to go with the Peralta Stones. It is after all a different type of stone from the "heart map" where the insert presumably goes, which begs the question "why"? Why make the heart of a different type of stone? There are many more questions than answers, and every proposed answer only leads to more questions. The depth of the heart engraving may just be done after the fact, to fit those stones - in other words it is possible that the heart is genuine and the rest are made to go along with it, by an 'enthusiastic promoter' whose motive was not profit or humor but a belief. I can think of a person offhand whom has done things not very different from this, in the time period shortly before Tumlinson found the stones.

Jim Hatt wrote

Who do you think made them Roy? You still working on Ted De Grazia?

No, I have never taken the position that DeGrazia made the Peralta Stones, that is CJ's theorem not mine. I have said several times, that IF I must point a finger at someone, it is someone whom was active in the Superstitions in the 1930's & 40's, someone whom was an enthusiastic promoter of the treasure lore and legends of the Superstitions, someone who was seen making fake "Spanish heiroglyphics" <carved in stone, even "ORO"> in the Superstitions, someone who had the backing and (shall I use that word?) connivance of powerful Arizona figures like Senator Goldwater and the Dons club; this person is well loved by many treasure hunters so it irritates them when I even suggest it, but Barry Storm, aka John T Clymenson is the person I would point the accusing finger at, and I don't believe he made his fakes for profit or to get laughs, it was because he thought they should be there. So far I haven't seen anything that will acquit Storm, and even his initials are "B S"

Lets turn this around - Jim & Mike, who do you think made the Peralta Stones? Can you pin a name for the creator? Thank you in advance.

Oroblanco

 

[Jim Hatt]

Roy,

I do not see where the burden of proof is on Mike and/or myself to provide evidence of who made them.
The stones EXIST. Somebody made them that's for sure. We are only presenting evidence that supports the train of thought that they were not fabricated as some kind of hoax. You are not presenting any kind of evidence at all! Only "Gut Feelings" and ideas that are not supported by anything.

Do you have any supporting evidence that Storm or anyone else made them?

As far as the Latin heart is concerned... Your lack of knowledge about it's history or reluctance to accept it, is not evidence of anything.
The physical fact that the original heart will not fill the cavity it sits in, without the Latin Heart under it cannot be ignored.

Best,

Jim

 

[coazon de oro]

Mister Jim, To me, the psm's present no doubt that they were made by an average mexican, possibly a Peralta. Even if they have spelling errors, they got the gender right. Even el mapa, which is an exception to the rules of gender. The crosses and latin heart on the other hand indicate they are gringo made, and copy catted, as they do mistake gender, and came years after the discovery of the psm's. The copy cat knew the size of the heart. As Mike says actions speak louder than words, so who may have made them? I would say the same man that destroyed the heart. Even the place of discovery is unspecified. There is also no law that states that the original heart had to fill the cavity. Homar P. Olivarez

 

[somehiker]

Ladies & Gentlemen: since I have no iron in the fire, I am free to speculate with no previous commitments mentally to prove.

The Jesuits were famous for misleading data. ¿ suppose , just suppose, that the
8 Th marker is the key take off point, not the end of the line?

Don Jose de La Mancha

I concur Don,on all points.I have previously given my reasons for the importance of the "8" relative to the beginning and end points of the trail map.
The "eighth" marker on that trail could be the most important clue,depending on your point of view.For the mapmaker it was,IMHO.On the map,beside the eighth dot,is an "X".There are three X's in total,all to the right hand side of the trail.The local topography is the reason for that.Each "X" represents an object that is relatively close to the trail,is highly visible,and....can be found on the Map Cross.At each object is an intersection,IMO the meaning of "X".From each intersection,a secondary trail begins.The trail from the second "X" leads to the most important of the caches....El Tesoro De Los Eglesia de Santa Fe.
Of course,thats just my interpretation.That trail,which I only followed part way in April,will have to wait.It's not likely to to be destroyed,or be "covered up" in the meantime.

Regards:SH.

 

[Cubfan64]

Cubfan ref your question about the car: based on the side grills and hood ornament , it could be a 39 Oldsmobile, give or take

Ralph Johnson

rfjj - thanks very much - from the images I've looked up, I'd say a 1939 Oldsmobile is a very likely target! Now I need to find someone who owns one and wouldn't mind me taking some photos and maybe even setting something on the front bumper :P

 

[Cubfan64]

Ralph,

"based on the side grills and hood ornament , it could be a 39 Oldsmobile, give or take"

The 39 Old's is very close, but the side grill is different in all the pictures I have seen.

Nice call and you could be right.

Joe Ribaudo

I think it's spot on Joe - I'll post an image from online

 

[gollum]

Hola Jim,
I am not 100% convinced the Latin Heart is even supposed to go with the Peralta Stones. It is after all a different type of stone from the "heart map" where the insert presumably goes, which begs the question "why"? Why make the heart of a different type of stone? There are many more questions than answers, and every proposed answer only leads to more questions. The depth of the heart engraving may just be done after the fact, to fit those stones - in other words it is possible that the heart is genuine and the rest are made to go along with it, by an 'enthusiastic promoter' whose motive was not profit or humor but a belief. I can think of a person offhand whom has done things not very different from this, in the time period shortly before Tumlinson found the stones.

Jim Hatt wrote

Who do you think made them Roy? You still working on Ted De Grazia?

No, I have never taken the position that DeGrazia made the Peralta Stones, that is CJ's theorem not mine. I have said several times, that IF I must point a finger at someone, it is someone whom was active in the Superstitions in the 1930's & 40's, someone whom was an enthusiastic promoter of the treasure lore and legends of the Superstitions, someone who was seen making fake "Spanish heiroglyphics" <carved in stone, even "ORO"> in the Superstitions, someone who had the backing and (shall I use that word?) connivance of powerful Arizona figures like Senator Goldwater and the Dons club; this person is well loved by many treasure hunters so it irritates them when I even suggest it, but Barry Storm, aka John T Clymenson is the person I would point the accusing finger at, and I don't believe he made his fakes for profit or to get laughs, it was because he thought they should be there. So far I haven't seen anything that will acquit Storm, and even his initials are "B S"

Lets turn this around - Jim & Mike, who do you think made the Peralta Stones? Can you pin a name for the creator? Thank you in advance.

Oroblanco

Roy,

As you know, HEIROGLYPHS are what are found in Egypt, and are quite difficult to make. What I believe Storm was caught doing was pecking PETROGLYPHS into rocks. Just pecking the desert varnish off exposing the lighter rock underneath. THAT is a far cry from engraving the Stone Maps. I will say that he did have the brains to dream up something like that, AND LIKE EVERY OTHER THEORY, I must admit it is possible (unless someone shows up with an historical document describing the stones or a wagon full of loot).

Let me explain to you why I think that theory is not very likely:

Where the stones were found is not the best place to hide them so they will be found. A hundred or so feet off a deserted stretch of country highway would not be the best place. If Storm made them, and wanted everybody to think they belonged in the Supers, he could have hidden them in a cave/mine SOMEWHERE INSIDE THE SUPERS! If you want to advertise the Superstition Mountains, you don't want there to be ANY doubt as to where they apply. Storm undoubtedly knew the locations of old Spanish Mines and Arrastras in the Supers. That would have been the best place to hide the stones, not several miles to the South.

Where they were found is right along the path the Peralta / Gonzales Families would have taken every year coming North to work their mines. It is also a great location for Jesuits on their way North to recover Church Adornments and such after their suppression ended. It is also possible that it was where the saddle fell off the mule after a massacre.

Its all a question of "MOST LIKELY" right now, or what you believe is most likely. I can promise you one thing that I absolutely believe throws your Storm Theory out: If he would have hidden the stones, he would have made sure they were found and publicized. Likely by he himself or someone he knew. Not by someone from Oregon that would keep them a secret for twelve years. Maybe you can explain to me how keeping them a secret publicizes or promotes the Superstition Mountains? What would have happened if Clarence Mitchell had not been the one to get the maps, or if he had kept them a secret for more than three years? What if he kept them a secret and passed them on to a family member who had kept them a secret? How does that promote tourism in the Supers?

Beth thinks that the old timers and the museum have it in their best interests to keep people believing that the Stone Maps are authentic for the tourist dollars. There is only one problem with that idea: Talk to the people at the AM&MM. They will tell you they think the stones are hoaxes. Tom Kollenborn even came out and said he doesn't think they are authentic. Sorry Beth, but that dog don't hunt either.

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

Mike your logic is impeccably, twisted. Tumlinson could have been a totally 100% honest person, who found those stones exactly as he claimed he did. I have no reason to think otherwise. They could still have been modern creations when he found them. Roots grow pretty fast amigo, it doesn't take a century for them to grow onto a rock in the ground. If they are modern, that doesn't make Tumlinson a liar, cheat or participant in the scam - it makes him a victim.

Gollum wrote

So........who duped Tumlinson?

The creator of the stones, if they are modern works instead of 163 years old. Isn't that part obvious to you?

Gollum also wrote

....................and YES! For me to disbelieve the story as told by the first known owner of the Stone Maps, who has NEVER been shown to have lied about anything regarding the Stone Maps (JEEZUS, how many times have I repeated that statement), I would definitely have to see evidence that either he was mistaken or he lied. Nobody's maybes, what ifs, might haves, and coulda beens won't do the trick.

You are repeating un-necessarily, read above statements; Tumlinson could have been utterly honest and forthright, and have been the first VICTIM. No need for Tumlinson to lie about anything!
Oroblanco

Jim,

I see now that Roy is saying the stones may have been made in the 1920s or 1930s. Who do you think made them Roy? You still working on Ted De Grazia? I did an exhaustive search of every De Grazia piece of art I could find, but not one of his pieces that contain horses look ANYTHING like the horse on the stone. Ted De Grazia had a very distinctive style. I can't see a bit of him in anything on the stones...................or maybe Roy is hitting us with an entirely new angle?

Best-Mike

There was a remarkable explosion of interest in 'lost mines and buried treasure' ca 1930's (late 20's to early 40's). Many have attributed the phenomenon to the Depression and the hangdog attitude of Americans who needed a boost of spirit, if only a fantasy. Yeah, maybe. Others have offered conspiratorial explanations beyond the scope of this wandering thread. For the sake of brevity, let's just look at four 'legends' that rest at 33° north latitude (more or less):

• Victorio Peak/Caballo Mountains. The Doc Noss/Willy Daught saga, which caused a sensation after Noss' 'discovery' in 1937 (and had roots back to the late 20's). We still don't know exactly what happened, but it seems lots of gold was involved.
• The Lost Adams Diggings. Well-known by locals for years. Became a 'legend' after the A.M. Tenney El Paso Herald article in 1928, and Dobie's book in 1931. Lots of hearsay, lots of theories, lots of books, lots of discovery claims, lots of never-say-die true believers, but no cigar.
• Santo Nino de Atocha Mountain. Well-known by locals for years after 'Aztec' rumors brought National Geographic to study Map Cave in the 1930's. Fortunately, it's not a 'legend', except to a limited group. Lots of hearsay, lots of theories, lots of circumstantial evidence, some 'big hitters' hush-hush interest, but no cigar.
• Lost Dutchman Mine/Peralta Stones. Well-known by locals for years. Became a 'legend' after Storm's book in 1939 (and an earlier one by Arnold in 1934). Lots of hearsay, lots of theories, lots of books, lots of discovery claims, lots of never-say-die true believers, but no cigar. Has created a cottage industry, however, which has benefitted a number of folks, especially after the Peralta stones appeared.

The common thread here and at a very large number of similar other sites elsewhere (you can look at Texas and Oklahoma for starters): 1930's; big story; 'lost' riches; public awareness; no verified recovery (Victorio Peak notwithstanding). Harrrump! Just more 'coincidences'? Something is happening here, and we don't know what it is. My belief is that the riches do exist, but the 'legends' and 'evidence' are smoke screens. And, Mike, before you ask, I don't know 'who' and 'why'. I wish I did. Just my opinion, and of course I could be wrong.

 

[gollum]

Mike your logic is impeccably, twisted. Tumlinson could have been a totally 100% honest person, who found those stones exactly as he claimed he did. I have no reason to think otherwise. They could still have been modern creations when he found them. Roots grow pretty fast amigo, it doesn't take a century for them to grow onto a rock in the ground. If they are modern, that doesn't make Tumlinson a liar, cheat or participant in the scam - it makes him a victim.

Gollum wrote

So........who duped Tumlinson?

The creator of the stones, if they are modern works instead of 163 years old. Isn't that part obvious to you?

Gollum also wrote

....................and YES! For me to disbelieve the story as told by the first known owner of the Stone Maps, who has NEVER been shown to have lied about anything regarding the Stone Maps (JEEZUS, how many times have I repeated that statement), I would definitely have to see evidence that either he was mistaken or he lied. Nobody's maybes, what ifs, might haves, and coulda beens won't do the trick.

You are repeating un-necessarily, read above statements; Tumlinson could have been utterly honest and forthright, and have been the first VICTIM. No need for Tumlinson to lie about anything!
Oroblanco

Jim,

I see now that Roy is saying the stones may have been made in the 1920s or 1930s. Who do you think made them Roy? You still working on Ted De Grazia? I did an exhaustive search of every De Grazia piece of art I could find, but not one of his pieces that contain horses look ANYTHING like the horse on the stone. Ted De Grazia had a very distinctive style. I can't see a bit of him in anything on the stones...................or maybe Roy is hitting us with an entirely new angle?

Best-Mike

There was a remarkable explosion of interest in 'lost mines and buried treasure' ca 1930's (late 20's to early 40's). Many have attributed the phenomenon to the Depression and the hangdog attitude of Americans who needed a boost of spirit, if only a fantasy. Yeah, maybe. Others have offered conspiratorial explanations beyond the scope of this wandering thread. For the sake of brevity, let's just look at four 'legends' that rest at 33° north latitude (more or less):

• Victorio Peak/Caballo Mountains. The Doc Noss/Willy Daught saga, which caused a sensation after Noss' 'discovery' in 1937 (and had roots back to the late 20's). We still don't know exactly what happened, but it seems lots of gold was involved.
• The Lost Adams Diggings. Well-known by locals for years. Became a 'legend' after the A.M. Tenney El Paso Herald article in 1928, and Dobie's book in 1931. Lots of hearsay, lots of theories, lots of books, lots of discovery claims, lots of never-say-die true believers, but no cigar.
• Santo Nino de Atocha Mountain. Well-known by locals for years after 'Aztec' rumors brought National Geographic to study Map Cave in the 1930's. Fortunately, it's not a 'legend', except to a limited group. Lots of hearsay, lots of theories, lots of circumstantial evidence, some 'big hitters' hush-hush interest, but no cigar.
• Lost Dutchman Mine/Peralta Stones. Well-known by locals for years. Became a 'legend' after Storm's book in 1939 (and an earlier one by Arnold in 1934). Lots of hearsay, lots of theories, lots of books, lots of discovery claims, lots of never-say-die true believers, but no cigar. Has created a cottage industry, however, which has benefitted a number of folks, especially after the Peralta stones appeared.

The common thread here and at a very large number of similar other sites elsewhere (you can look at Texas and Oklahoma for starters): 1930's; big story; 'lost' riches; public awareness; no verified recovery (Victorio Peak notwithstanding). Harrrump! Just more 'coincidences'? Something is happening here, and we don't know what it is. My belief is that the riches do exist, but the 'legends' and 'evidence' are smoke screens. And, Mike, before you ask, I don't know 'who' and 'why'. I wish I did. Just my opinion, and of course I could be wrong.

Buddy,

Please tell me we're not going down the Ophir, Ancient Ones, Solomon's Mines, or Templar Treasure Road?

At least with the Victorio Peak Story, we have a very detailed description of much of the contents of the vaults/caves. My guess for that would be either Indian Raiders Storehouse over a couple of hundred years, or loot from the Mexican Revolution.

Best-Mike

 

[BenThereDoneThat]

Cubfan ref your question about the car: based on the side grills and hood ornament , it could be a 39 Oldsmobile, give or take

Ralph Johnson

rfjj - thanks very much - from the images I've looked up, I'd say a 1939 Oldsmobile is a very likely target! Now I need to find someone who owns one and wouldn't mind me taking some photos and maybe even setting something on the front bumper :P

Good One Paul...
I though the stones maps displayed on the bumper looked to be much larger then the maps in the museum! Just by the size of the headlight alone..................

 

[Springfield]

.....

Buddy,

Please tell me we're not going down the Ophir, Ancient Ones, Solomon's Mines, or Templar Treasure Road?

At least with the Victorio Peak Story, we have a very detailed description of much of the contents of the vaults/caves. My guess for that would be either Indian Raiders Storehouse over a couple of hundred years, or loot from the Mexican Revolution.

Best-Mike

We're not going anywhere - we're stuck in the LDM/Peralta stones loop. Not much traction, but fun anyway.

As far as the Victorio Peak (actually, it's Soledad Peak) deal goes, your guess is as good as any. Some of the stuff displayed by the Nosses did seem to match the catagories you mentioned. The Army stole the deeper stuff and of course, they're not talkin'.

 

[Cubfan64]

Cubfan ref your question about the car: based on the side grills and hood ornament , it could be a 39 Oldsmobile, give or take

Ralph Johnson

rfjj - thanks very much - from the images I've looked up, I'd say a 1939 Oldsmobile is a very likely target! Now I need to find someone who owns one and wouldn't mind me taking some photos and maybe even setting something on the front bumper :P

Good One Paul...
I though the stones maps displayed on the bumper looked to be much larger then the maps in the museum! Just by the size of the headlight alone..................

By any chance do you or anyone else know the exact length/width dimensions of the stones displayed at the Museum which are supposed to be the originals?

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

As I have said, I looked into this a couple of years ago, trying to find the diminsions of the headlights so I could compute the width of the Stone Maps on the bumper. They are very close to what has been said.

I looked at the very picture that Mike has posted from the Internet. There is a bit of a difference in the side grill:

In my research, I found that there were many cars that were close. I think I finally found one that matched, but don't remember what car it was.

The important thing that I discovered was that all of the headlamps of that style were the same size.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI peeps, I waited patiently for the id of the vehicle. but ---- it is a 1939 Plymouth voyager. No honest policeman in that period could afford an Oldsmobile.

Sides, sniff, I remember seeing them.

http://www.hubcapcafe.com/ocs/pages01/plym3901.htm

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

.....

Buddy,

Please tell me we're not going down the Ophir, Ancient Ones, Solomon's Mines, or Templar Treasure Road?

At least with the Victorio Peak Story, we have a very detailed description of much of the contents of the vaults/caves. My guess for that would be either Indian Raiders Storehouse over a couple of hundred years, or loot from the Mexican Revolution.

Best-Mike

We're not going anywhere - we're stuck in the LDM/Peralta stones loop. Not much traction, but fun anyway.

As far as the Victorio Peak (actually, it's Soledad Peak) deal goes, your guess is as good as any. Some of the stuff displayed by the Nosses did seem to match the catagories you mentioned. The Army stole the deeper stuff and of course, they're not talkin'.

Did you read the two part article from Freedom Magazine? Most people have. A great read. I talked to Tom Whittle several times. He is a really good guy, but says he is writing a book on the subject and not too forthcoming with privileged info. He also has a bunch more pics that he has never published. He's also a bit paranoid about people's motives until he gets to know them. HAHAHA He lived with the family for 6-9 months while he wrote the story. He talked to many of the people who were there and actually saw and helped remove the gold bars from the tunnels.

Best-Mike

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

As I have said, I looked into this a couple of years ago, trying to find the diminsions of the headlights so I could compute the width of the Stone Maps on the bumper. They are very close to what has been said.

I looked at the very picture that Mike has posted from the Internet. There is a bit of a difference in the side grill:

In my research, I found that there were many cars that were close. I think I finally found one that matched, but don't remember what car it was.

The important thing that I discovered was that all of the headlamps of that style were the same size.

Take care,

Joe

Joe - I didn't mean to question what you discovered, but I thought it wouldn't hurt to look into it myself rather than take anyone else's word for it and see what I came up with for a conclusion and then ultimately compare it with not only what you found by using the headlamps, but also with the exact dimensions of the stones on display.

If possible, I want to nail the exact make and model of vehicle rather than use the headlamps - the angle of the photo and shadows makes it difficult imo to accurately do it with just the lamps - not that it can't be done, but I'd rather get closer to the actual if possible.

It's hard to get to the right resolution on the photo I added here of the 1939 Olds - take a look at these 3 links though and check out the grills in the area you are talking about - they look the same to me.

http://multimedia.detnews.com/pix/ab/92/bf/e3/7b/3d/20091124231502_39olds.jpg

http://www.hassinen.eu/1939oldsmobile_L39-Series 80.jpg

http://www.velocityjournal.com/images/full/2009/448/ol1939series60sedan44829267.jpg

RDT - It doesn't look to me like a match to your 1939 Plymouth