The Peralta Stones

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I know you are very good at rock signs. It's said that the Jesuits were only interested in mining the Native American souls. Getting them to pray was important to the priests. Is this man made or created by Mother Nature?

Many thanks,

Joe

 

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[gollum]

Mike,

I know you are very good at rock signs. It's said that the Jesuits were only interested in mining the Native American souls. Getting them to pray was important to the priests. Is this man made or created by Mother Nature?

Many thanks,

Joe

Joe,

From your previous post, you are wrong, but what time I did spend in the Supers was mostly before I had much interest in the Stone Maps.

Regarding your picture: It COULD be man made, but there are also a ton of COMPLETELY NATURAL formations that look like that. If it were of Spanish origin, there would be marks on it to confirm it as being man made.

It could also be totally natural and still used as a marker because of its shape.

Best-Mike

 

[Springfield]

.... No I don't say that Bob Corbin is a liar, in fact I believe that he is remembering it very well - but we have only his third-hand overheard remark, and which we have NO idea how they got the "at least 100 years old" and it could have been just a WAG based on seeing the '1847' on them. ....

Corbin's statement is probably reliable hearsay in this instance. The problem is with the FBI's statement. With no documentation, the '100-year' comment is no more reliable than any other whiskey talk. I've known a couple FBI agents in my day, and I can assure you that the agency has as many blowhards on board as any other bureaucracy.

 

[Jim Hatt]

Do you have the slightest idea what is involved in opening a mine then putting it into production? It generally takes 5 - 10 years to complete the various studies, in addition to completing the infra structure. Besides I never intend to open it up. It is to be kept as it is, and the surrounding land as a monument for the future. I will be content with the main deposit and my other mines.

I sure do Don Jose... There are 8 mines, and a Mill that will process 8 tons/day on the property where I have lived for the last 11 years. I am very familiar with every stage of the process.

I have seen some pretty good studies completed in a week. What are you calling a study that takes 5 - 10 years amigo?

My question was specific to the Tayopa, since that seems to be your main claim to fame. Where is the study for it, and how can you say for certain that you found it, if you have never opened it? (I am not saying that it did but...) The assay report you posted could have come off the internet somewhere. I see noting on it that links it to anything. Assay reports normally have a lot of traceable information on them, like who did them, when, and a description of the property involved. Why isn't any of that information included?

Evening Jim my friend; you posted -->Who are you, to announce what I have deciphered, and what I have not?
************

Cause I am ME, hehe,

Don Jose de La Mancha

Because you are YOU amigo? Just exactly WHO would that be? You do have a lot of different aliases, and apparently self appointed titles, but I have never seen you sign your name to anything. Could it be that you are trying to sell us a "pig in a poke" with all this "I found the Tayopa" thing? Possible even that you have sold yourself a "pig in a poke"?

You posted --> ... I will thank you to leave any posting of announcements about what I may or may not know to me.
*********
Perhaps I am naive, but doesn't that apply to your opinion of others in the LDM / Peralta stones search also?

It appears that you have switched the subject from ANNOUNCEMENTS to OPINIONS here Don Jose. It may or may not apply. Which specific opinions are you referring to my friend?

Finding the Tayopa would be a wonderful thing Don Jose, and the person who found it would certainly deserve his place in history for that accomplishment. I think that since you own title to the property it sits on, and nobody can jump your claim... You should be able to present a much stronger case for having found the Tayopa than you have.

Under the circumstances... You will excuse, and forgive me, if I personally continue to consider the Tayopa lost?

Just something to be considered... Big mining companies will go anywhere in the world, and do anything necessary, to get gold out of the ground, when it can be mined at a profit. The owners of the claims I live on, have been approached many times by large companies wanting to lease the claims, and the best assays I have seen from the property, only come in at 8 Oz/ton.

Somehow... It does not appear that you have been able to present enough evidence, to the big companies that you have located the Lost Tayopa Mine, or I would expect that they would be trying very hard to lease your property?
Best,

Jim

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Jim: I loved the post heheheh

Frankly I don't have to defend my self, my record for telling the truth in here hasn't been challenged by anyone, except swr, hehheh The old quote still holds true, "If you tell the truth you don't have to remember anything".

However, you must have made a few typos.


You posted --> There are 8 mines, and a Mill that will process 8 tons/day on the property where I have lived for the last 11 years. I am very familiar with every stage of the process.
***************

A) shucks 8 tons a day from 8 mines? heck, even Oro can do that alone, especially with Beth ramrodding him.
====================================================

B) You posted --> I have seen some pretty good studies completed in a week. What are you calling a study that takes 5 - 10 years amigo
***************

When was that? 1860? There are multiple studies that have to be made in today's world, in 'sequence' and all are expensive and time consuming.
====================================================

C) You posted --> how can you say for certain that you found it, if you have never opened it?
*************

Long story there, however a crude example, I know where the local bank vault is, however, I have never opened it, so how can I be sure ?
====================================================

D) You posted -->The assay report you posted could have come off the internet somewhere. I see noting on it that links it to anything.
**********

I completely agree, however if you are actually interested, go to the state of Sonora mining office on the net, and do your research. The title is attached.
====================================================

E) You posted -->Because you are YOU amigo? Just exactly WHO would that be? You do have a lot of different aliases, and apparently self appointed titles, but I have never seen you sign your name to anythin
****************

Correct, however I have never hidden my em addresses, etc. they always have been open to contact me with questions

My em nick has undergone a bit of metamorphus, from Tropical Tramp-> Tayopa-> then, as I saw so much bullying in here, it was changed to Till Eulenspiegle, a mischievous Germanic character that loved to play practical jokes to expose one to their inner egos and faults -> this was then changed to Don Jose de La Mancha, another mythical character that challenged the forces of evil and rescued the fair maidens, Don Juan de La Mancha .
====================================================

F) You also posted -->Possible even that you have sold yourself a "pig in a poke"?
**********

Of course, just as some may have sold themselves on solving the Peralta stones.
====================================================

G) You also posted -->Under the circumstances... You will excuse, and forgive me, if I personally continue to consider the Tayopa lost?
***********

Granted my friend, with the reservation that I may say the same about the interpretation of the Peralta stones.

I have always welcomed questions and criticisms on Tayopa having been found, if I can't answer them satisfactorily then I have more work to do, so feel free to probe, ask etc, but not where "X" is.

Incidentally this might say a bit about my character, past, and how others may see me.

MI 03

www.explorers.org

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

.... No I don't say that Bob Corbin is a liar, in fact I believe that he is remembering it very well - but we have only his third-hand overheard remark, and which we have NO idea how they got the "at least 100 years old" and it could have been just a WAG based on seeing the '1847' on them. ....

Corbin's statement is probably reliable hearsay in this instance. The problem is with the FBI's statement. With no documentation, the '100-year' comment is no more reliable than any other whiskey talk. I've known a couple FBI agents in my day, and I can assure you that the agency has as many blowhards on board as any other bureaucracy.

Roy and Springfield,

I highly doubt the FBI Agent's statement to Corbin was just the result of the FBI pulling a date out of their as$es. Remember, the result of the FBIs Opinion was that the AZ Court forced MOEL to donate the Stone maps to a Non-Profit (AL Flagg/AM&MM). If their opinion was based on nothing but "anal conjecture" (pulling a date out of their as$), that would have left the court's decision to be overturned and the FBI to be sued in a Civil Court. In this action, the Court forced the owners of what had been private property for twenty years to GIVE/DONATE the stones. Mitchel/MOEL did not donate them as part of any tax deal as was previously thought.

If your OPINION is going to be the cause of someone losing their private property that they consider to be VERY valuable, you had better have your ducks in a row, and a VERY GOOD basis for forming your OPINION!


Best-Mike

 

[Jim Hatt]

Don Jose,

I have made no attempt to attack your character amigo.

I just question your claim to have found the Tayopa, based on the evidence you have provided.

The land title just shows that you hold title to some land in Mexico. I do not see anything on it that is evidence that the Tayopa is located on that land.

I cannot see where your Explorer's card shows what level member you are. Anyone can join the Explorer's Club by simply paying an annual fee.

My work on the Stone Maps is a very enjoyable sideline for me. I have never claimed to have fully solved them, and found the location of the "Pot of Gold" at the end of the trail. (And make excuses for why I cannot dig it up) I could present a lot of circumstantial evidence that I understand how they work, but that could be taken by some that I have solved them, and that would put me in the same boat you are in, trying to prove that you are right without any gold to show.

That is why I am always careful to speak in terms of theories and ideas, instead of making the big "I FOUND IT" statement.

Anything I may HAVE found is between Me, Myself and I, (My business only) as long as I am not trying to convince the world that I have found it.

You have made the announcement to the world that you have "FOUND" the Tayopa. That lays the burden of proof squarely in your lap. I don't think an Explorer's card, (No matter what level it may be) or a title to some land (somewhere) in Mexico meets that burden.

As my amigo Roy who does not believe in "Treasure maps" always says... "Show me some GOLD"!

I apologize if I appear to be overly skeptical here, and I fully appreciate whatever time, sweat, and blood you have invested in your search for the Tayopa, but I do not hear the "Fat Lady" singing the "The Tayopa has been Found" song yet.

Best,

Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"I highly doubt the FBI Agent's statement to Corbin was just the result of the FBI pulling a date out of their as$es. Remember, the result of the FBIs Opinion was that the AZ Court forced MOEL to donate the Stone maps to a Non-Profit (AL Flagg/AM&MM). If their opinion was based on nothing but "anal conjecture" (pulling a date out of their as$), that would have left the court's decision to be overturned and the FBI to be sued in a Civil Court. In this action, the Court forced the owners of what had been private property for twenty years to GIVE/DONATE the stones. Mitchel/MOEL did not donate them as part of any tax deal as was previously thought."


I would be interested in seeing the FBI's report on the dating of the Stone Maps. Right now, I don't believe any such documentation exists. If it was used in a court decision, as you believe, that report would be available. The court ruling would also be a matter of documented record, not hearsay.

I don't know why you are accepting that hearsay as "evidence" of truth, as it only suggests that the story may be true.

We are told that no story will be believed or trusted until we see physical gold or ore. Until that time, any claims of "solving" the Stone Maps or finding the LDM are just so much talk.

In other words, my friend, show me the documentation.

Don Jose,

You have a long record on this Forum. In that time you have provided more "evidence" for your claims than anyone I have seen in recent memory.
It could very well all be "manufactured", but you have made numerous offers to some members to visit your claims. I don't know if anyone has taken you up on those offers......but it says something about your sincerity/honesty.

Few people are ready to back up their claims with any offers to eyeball the evidence. IMHO, That takes you out of the realm of talk and into reality.

Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Mike,
.....
I would be interested in seeing the FBI's report on the dating of the Stone Maps. Right now, I don't believe any such documentation exists. If it was used in a court decision, as you believe, that report would be available. The court ruling would also be a matter of documented record, not hearsay.

I don't know why you are accepting that hearsay as "evidence" of truth, as it only suggests that the story may be true.

We are told that no story will be believed or trusted until we see physical gold or ore. Until that time, any claims of "solving" the Stone Maps or finding the LDM are just so much talk.

In other words, my friend, show me the documentation.
....
Take care,
Joe

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Jim Hatt]

I would be interested in seeing the FBI's report on the dating of the Stone Maps. Right now, I don't believe any such documentation exists. If it was used in a court decision, as you believe, that report would be available. The court ruling would also be a matter of documented record, not hearsay.

Joe,

You (and Springfield) appear to be overlooking the fact that the case never went to trial.

The weight of the FBI's "opinion" was used as leverage against Mitchell and the others, to get them to settle without a formal trial, and avoid the possibility of being prosecuted for violation of the Antiquities Act.

It resulted in a Judge simply issuing an order that the stones being turned over to the Flagg Foundation. That is probably the only documentation about the matter that ever existed.

More details can be found at: http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=345&p=13704&hilit=Corbin#p13704

Below is some of the information I presented in that discussion:

Another misconception is that Mitchell donated the stones to the Flagg Foundation for a tax write off. According to a conversation I had with Bob Corbin, that donation resulted from something more similar to a plea bargain.

ie: Although not word for word. This is basically what Bob told me....
A dispute arose between Mitchell and people that had invested in his efforts to solve where the maps lead to. When all efforts failed to find the treasure, one of the main investors wanted SOMETHING to show for the money they had invested in the project, and demanded that Mitchell give them the stone maps in return for their investment.

Mitchell refused, and a legal dispute was filed with the State Attorney's Office where Bob Corbin was a Deputy Attorney. The stones were eventually confiscated, when someone in that office began to look at them as possibly being covered by the Antiquities Act because of where Mitchell claimed that Tumlinson had found them. (On Government land). The FBI was asked to examine the stones to determine if they were old enough to be covered by the Antiquities Act, giving the Government the right to claim ownership to them, ending the legal dispute over ownership.

Edited on June 23rd, 2010 for the purpose of clarification for future readers, who might mistake every word of this post as coming from Bob Corbin.

Nothing in the two paragraphs above, or anywhere in this post, are direct quotes from Bob Corbin, and are only a paraphrasing of the story he told me. The story from this point on, (with the exception of anything relating to the FBI investigation) comes from the written history pertaining to Clarence Mitchell and the stone maps. My apologies for not putting the Bob Corbin source information in quotes, (to separate it from information from other sources), but I did not want it to be taken as direct quotes, since as I stated it was only from memory. Hope this clears up any misunderstandings. Jim Hatt

The conclusion reached by the FBI was that (in their opinion) they were at least 100 years old (Back in the 1960's when the evaluation was made). Since this was only an OPINION and not a proven FACT the State Attorney's Office was weary of confiscating the stones under the Antiquities Act, because they were unsure if the FBI's OPINION would hold up in court if it came to that. Mitchell was facing the possibility of being prosecuted for violation of the Antiquities Act.

The State was faced with coming up with more evidence than just the FBI's “opinion” about the age of the stones, and was perusing that avenue in order to move in that direction, when everyone agreed that it would be simpler to just donate the stones to a non-profit organization, and avoid a lengthy and expensive court trial for both sides.

Mitchell may, or may not have received a tax deduction for the donation. In either case, that would not be relevant to the authenticity of the stone maps.

The bottom line is... Yes Mitchell donated the maps to the Flagg Foundation, but it was done under duress, to avoid the possibility of a lengthy court trial, and legal fees to defend himself against possible charges of violation of the Antiquities Act.

Since it was actually Tumlinson that was "supposed" to have found them and perhaps removed them illegally, the State's case would have been difficult to prove against Mitchell, but he was in possession of them, and therefore considered accountable.

It was a big mess with a number of possible outcomes in the end, and a lot of legal expenses on both sides if it went to trial. It should be easy for anyone to see why in the end, everyone agreed to the idea of donating the stones to the Flagg Foundation and avoiding litigation.

It is unfortunate for all of us that trial never took place. It would have included a lot of testimony made under oath, about who, what, when and where the stone maps were found, and the history about them from that point on, and prevented most of the speculation, and false information being circulated today.

Jim Hatt

Sometimes things are not as simple as they seem, without the full knowledge of the circumstances at the time.


Best,

Jim

 

[BILL96]

Jim,
It seems that the "main investors" still ended up with nothing. How did donating the stones to a non-profit satisfy those investors?

Bill

 

[Jim Hatt]

"seriously, if you had, you certainly wouldn't be playing around in here chancing a slip, or calling undue attention to it or yourself".

In my case, I have the property titled.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

I have no fear of making a "Slip" in a public forum about anything that will lead someone to finding the end of the trail on the stone maps.

The only public statement I have ever made about them, is that I believe they are authentic treasure maps. I do not see how that is going to lead anyone any closer to solving them.

Have you considered the idea that it could be an indicator, of the strength of my belief that the stone maps are so heavily coded, and cleverly designed, that nobody is going to even come close to solving them, by using anything I have said in public?

If I were to convince 1000 people that the maps were authentic… How many do you think would actually go into the mountains and try to solve them? 2 maybe 3? The rest would sit down and look at Google Earth, or Topo maps and form theories about how they think they fit out there, with no intention of ever going in to verify their theory.

Of the 2 or 3 that might actually go in the mountains and look around one time… How many of them would ever return for a second trip? I was making weekly trips in there for 2 years, before I even began to learn my way around, and 5 years before things started to fit any of the legends, and landmarks on the stone maps.

I have no fear of any serious competition in trying to solve the stone maps, no matter how many people might become convinced they are authentic. That is how strongly I believe in the deceptive nature of the maps, and the idea that nobody is just going to stroll in there and solve them, before I do.

Very few people have even invested the time tracking down the history of the maps, as much as Mike has. Fewer yet have invested as much time in the mountains following trail as I have. (and most of them are already in their graves) I am very confident that anyone starting to follow that trail tomorrow, will take 20 years to get to where I am today.

Hope that answers your question.

Best,

Jim

 

[Jim Hatt]

Jim,
It seems that the "main investors" still ended up with nothing. How did donating the stones to a non-profit satisfy those investors?

Bill

Hello Bill,

Good to see you back in the discussion!

My guess would be that the investors were not at all satisfied with the end result, but they did not have much to say about it once agreement was made, and the order was issued! The intent of that order was not to satisfy anyone. It was to avoid a lengthy and expensive trial for everyone involved.

Best,

Jim

 

[BILL96]

Jim,
Is it your understanding that this was an "off the record" aggreement or shouldn't there be some offical court documents outling the finial disposition of the stones and if so have you ever seen any?

Bill

 

[Jim Hatt]

Jim,
Is it your understanding that this was an "off the record" aggreement or shouldn't there be some offical court documents outling the finial disposition of the stones and if so have you ever seen any?

Bill

I did not say "Off the record" agreement Bill. I said "Out of Court" agreement. (meaning that there was no trial. Just a hearing in front of a Judge to determine if a trial was necessary) I believe Mike has already tracked down the court order (if I remember correctly) and a copy of it (That came with the maps) exists in the Mineral & Mining Museum files.

It never mattered enough to me to go searching for it. I concluded that the maps were authentic based on other information. It does not really matter to me who found them, where they were found, or who lied, and who told the truth. My main interest lies in the information that is inscribed on them, and how to use it.

Best,

Jim

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good afternoon Jim: We had better slow this down soon, or they will tar and feather us for hijacking the thread.
You posted --> I have made no attempt to attack your character amigo
**********
I agree, nor I your's. and I appreciate the courtesy.
==================================================

You posted -->I just question your claim to have found the Tayopa, based on the evidence you have provided
*************
And you rightly should, this is why I encourage everyone to question me, if I can't come up with the correct or logical answers, then I need to get back to my homework. You should have seen the working over that Oro gave me. hehehh
===================================================

You posted -->I cannot see where your Explorer's card shows what level member you are. Anyone can join the Explorer's Club by simply paying an annual fee
************
I see that you didn't actually read that addy that I posted. You don't just join the Explorers club. a board of your peers votes on it after reviewing your credentials and experience. I was voted in because of my explorations in the Quintana roo / Guatemala jungles looking for Mayan ruins. Tayopa and the Jesuit plot to take over North America, came later. There are no grades, other than fellow or member. We rate with the Smithsonian in prestige, and often work together.
====================================================

You posted -->Anything I may HAVE found is between Me, Myself and I, (My business only) as long as I am not trying to convince the world that I have found
********************
Then why so sensitive when it was merely suggested that since you haven't actually found it, that you might readjust your thinking, and drop any Shibboleths?
====================================================


You also posted -->You have made the announcement to the world that you have "FOUND" the Tayopa. That lays the burden of proof squarely in your lap. I don't think an Explorer's card, (No matter what level it may be) or a title to some land (somewhere) in Mexico meets that burden.
***************
Agreed, but the proof lies in here in TN files on Tayopa. It has been discussed, cussed, and yelled at, both pro and con, I have gone through this many times so if you 'are' interested in proving me mistaken, be my guest, go review them. I will happily answer any questions that you have, within reason. However, like you, I do have a certain bit of data that is highly secret, and it will remain so. someday when I am free to talk about this you will understand, it is beyond Tayopa itself.
====================================================

You also posted -->but I do not hear the "Fat Lady" singing the "The Tayopa has been Found" song yet.
***********
Nah, no singing, but a poem about Roy el Oro and Tayopa?
:::::::::::::::
A bunch of the boys were whooping it up in one of those Mexican bars,
When along came Roy, who stopped upon seeing all of those cars.

After listening to the sounds of wild good cheer, he entered on the chance of a free beer.

and on, to where he first hears of Tayopa to when he finally finds it.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Jim Hatt]

I think you are right Don Jose,

We have hijacked this tread enough.

I am not interested in the Tayopa enough to go searching for what you have posted about it in other places. The only topic I follow on T-Net is the stone maps.

I wish you luck in your pursuit of the Tayopa, and sincerely hope you someday succeed in convincing the world that your efforts were not in vein.

In the mean time... Please do not underestimate, or make unqualified assumptions about my abilities, or knowledge related to the stone maps.

Best,

Jim

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good afternoon Joe, I thank you for that vote of confidence, I owe YOU that cup of coffee if I can make the Dutchmen junta.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

I am, somewhat, hurt that you didn't use my own poem, so I will refresh you memory, which seems much worse than my own:

Real de Tayopa


Tayopa lay resting behind the veil, It's legend grew to quite a tale.

Searchers came from far and wide, but the Jesuit treasure continued to hide.

Jose appeared from out of the mist, his mind held the map that could not miss.

For years he fought to make it his prize, but it stood protected by a thousand lies.

The door creaks loudly as he pushes it back, he peers inside and his smile cracks,

The bones of the padres are piled inside, they crumble to dust as if trying to hide.

Jose is in awe as he gazes at their treasure, the souls of the natives too many to measure.

The Jesuits had mined this land too well, their leaving had opened the gateway to hell.

He steps back in fear and closes the door, leaving Tayopa and its souls, to return no more.

Joe Ribaudo
__________________________________

I spent the better part of fifteen minutes composing that thing, and what did I get for it......ignored.

Take care,

The Reale Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"I wish you luck in your pursuit of the Tayopa, and sincerely hope you someday secede in convincing the world that your efforts were not in vein."

Surely this can't be true. Tell us that you are not going to "secede" from making your case for Tayopa. To withdraw after all this time and work, would be sad indeed.

Take care,

Joe