The Peralta Stones

[gollum]

Wayne,

I think the 18 places may simply be a measurement. It would be up to the person looking at the maps to know the exact distance between place #1 and place #2 (vara, legua, rod, ?). Maybe there aren't 18 markers. Maybe there are. Over the years, as we have said so many times before, people have destroyed markers and monuments and kept their original locations a secret, even if they didn't know their meaning.

Just a thought.

Best-Mike

 

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[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Wayne: If you go to post 1793, you will see that the back of the 'B' is not originally square, but it looks as if an attempt was made later to do so. Also carefully note the curves of the two right hand sides of the B are curved, both in entering and leaving, the horizontal bar, not straight as in the other 'B's..

-->B'<-- '8'

Since no-one has found the secret of the stones, see if it can be made to fit some where.. Who knows?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[somehiker]

Hi Wayne: If you go to post 1793, you will see that the back of the 'B' is not originally square, but it looks as if an attempt was made later to do so. Also carefully note the curves of the two right hand sides of the B are curved, both in entering and leaving, the horizontal bar, not straight as in the other 'B's..

-->B'<-- '8'

Since no-one has found the secret of the stones, see if it can be made to fit some where.. Who knows?

Don Jose de La Mancha

I really don't like to discount anyone's observation Don.There are many varied details on the map set that bear close scrutiny.I made the extra time to visit the Tumlinson discovery site as well as to examine the stones at the museum in order to....see them in person....to get photos of the details that I felt had a special significance....and,in the case of the discovery site,to check on a hunch related to the Priest/Horse map.You have all seen the photos that are related to that hunch...(most of them,anyway).
The words "SANTA FE" are part of that facet of the Stone Maps and Mike is quite right in his suggestion that this inscription refers to the town of the same name.It is also a very good clue as to the origin of the maps.
Paul is most likely correct in his assumption that certain other stones may be yet undiscovered,probably in the same general area as the originals were discovered.
I cannot say for sure that the B did not begin as an eight.I honestly did not notice any irregularity while looking through the glass.The photo that I shot of the whole face is next to useless because of the glare from the flash on the case.Perhaps someone can take a macro, when they are out of the case and outdoors,and post it here or on DUSA.

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

I think the 18 places may simply be a measurement. It would be up to the person looking at the maps to know the exact distance between place #1 and place #2 (vara, legua, rod, ?). Maybe there aren't 18 markers. Maybe there are. Over the years, as we have said so many times before, people have destroyed markers and monuments and kept their original locations a secret, even if they didn't know their meaning.

Just a thought.

Best-Mike

Hello Mike:
I gave a great deal of thought to the meaning of the eighteen places,and how it might relate to the eighteen dots on the Map Stone pair,before I left home for Arizona.Certainly the dots/small holes are spaced rather evenly along the trail line on the map,so they should also be spaced at regular intervals along the trail itself.That makes sense,especially considering the description of the trail as "dangerous".One would not want to be searching for the next marker at an unknown distance,while their attention is better directed towards safe passage.I did not expect that the markers would be large,for reasons mentioned in a previous post.I did suspect that they would be simply holes drilled in single ,probably flat,rocks set low or flush with the ground.What I did find was smaller,but more descriptive than what I expected.If I had found a second marker nearby(marker #2?),I would then have a distance estimate to use for locating the third etc.That didn't happen.I already knew where I was headed,to the top of the mountain,so I chose the easiest route to follow,a game trail that probably follows the map trail fairly well but not exactly.I will give the marker search another shot next time.
One thing that bothers me in a way,however,is that the other marker that I found,same kind and size of rock,with a hole closer to the center but no "V" on it,I found in the nineteenth position....? Where the circle-dot is on the map/heart stone.Haven't figgered out why.

Regards:Wayne

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies & Gentlemen: since I have no iron in the fire, I am free to speculate with no previous commitments mentally to prove.

The Jesuits were famous for misleading data. ¿ suppose , just suppose, that the
8 Th marker is the key take off point, not the end of the line?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Guys,

The eighteen places are monuments. They are not evenly spaced on the terrain, but they tell you that you're are still on the trail to the final location. There is no doubt in my mind as to that fact.

Don Jose,

You are correct.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[gollum]

WEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!

Just had a nice 5.7 quake here about five minutes ago.

Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

Just had a nice 5.7 quake here about five minutes ago.

That was just the Tommyknockers letting you know.

18 spots on the stone maps, 18 holes on a golf course; coincidence? <That is a joke for those who are wondering whether to explain about golf courses to me now.>

SH - I don't know how you got that as "at odds" when the point was, the "fit" for a USGS topo map <Cactusjumper's theorem> is simply too good for 1847 cartography. That means one of two possibilities must be true;

1: They are of modern manufacture, after USGS topo maps became available
2: They are being applied to the wrong geography

I have to respectfully disagree with Cactusjumper about the stone maps being exclusively of the Superstitions on these grounds; they could be used to "fit" with any of several different areas even within Arizona, and that is if we take the scale to be the same!

If they are genuine (circa 1847 or older) then we must expect them to be inaccurate; they should be! Examine some of the Jesuit maps to get an idea, yes they were good FOR THE DAY, and they were good at latitude, not good at longitude; now if the block lettering and mis-spelling are due to an in-experienced or semi-literate carver, then the maps definitely would not be so accurate. The Dillmans claimed to have found another Peralta stone map that goes with the known specimens; is it logical to just ignore that one, and work from the ones remaining only? It doesn't seem logical to me. It may well be the big stumbling block that is preventing the treasures/mines from getting found.

It is even debatable whether all of the Peralta stones belong together - after all, they don't all have some key markings that lines up with the others, which we might expect for a several-piece treasure map. Bilbrey's stone crosses too, do they really belong linked with the Peralta stones at all? Are they marked with a secret symbol that absolutely ties them in? There is a lot of room for thought, on several levels.

I don't expect a good explanation anymore. What I have been saying, is "OK Convince me they are real" but we get everything from a runaround to personal attacks to "I found it with Google Earth now prove that I didn't". That is okay with me too because the final acid test for all treasure maps is if they lead the searcher to a treasure; Tumlinson had them first, had sole possession, used them to search the Superstitions and found zilch. Was Tumlinson just too stupid to use them right? I don't know, but the record is fairly clear.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find that treasure of the Peralta Stones, and will take the time to come back to let us know how totally wrong I was.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

I would like to put the whole misspelling thing to rest if possible here. Even the National Park Service Experts say:

Every ancient Spanish document, without exception, has spelling errors in it.

Nearly every spelling error, or what we would call a spelling error in our day, made by colonial Spaniards was due to the lack of spelling rules and the writer’s lack of understanding of the few there may have been. Since they wrote by phonetics, one can rightly expect the word to sound correct when spoken.

That is from the people who call everything @ Tumacacori regarding treasure fraudulent. They are actually helping prove the case for the Stone Maps.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

...the final acid test for all treasure maps is if they lead the searcher to a treasure;...

 

[coazon de oro]

I would like to put the whole misspelling thing to rest if possible here. Even the National Park Service Experts say:

Every ancient Spanish document, without exception, has spelling errors in it.

Nearly every spelling error, or what we would call a spelling error in our day, made by colonial Spaniards was due to the lack of spelling rules and the writer’s lack of understanding of the few there may have been. Since they wrote by phonetics, one can rightly expect the word to sound correct when spoken.

That is from the people who call everything @ Tumacacori regarding treasure fraudulent. They are actually helping prove the case for the Stone Maps.

Best-Mike

A lot of members do seem to be too concerned about the misspellings. Just look into these forums, and you will find an ample supply of misspelled words by very highly educated members. Homar P. Olivarez

 

[Springfield]

..... The words "SANTA FE" are part of that facet of the Stone Maps and Mike is quite right in his suggestion that this inscription refers to the town of the same name.It is also a very good clue as to the origin of the maps.
....
Regards:SH.

And, of course, the founder of Santa Fe in 1610 was Don Pedro de Peralta. The original name of the city was 'La Villa Real de la Santa Fé de San Francisco de Asís'. Peralta was at odds almost from the beginning with the Franciscans, who were the first beyond the northern frontier in 1539 and who controlled the territory until 1680. The Jesuits, of course, were a complete non-issue in New Mexico.

Another point: as Roy mentioned above, 'I have to respectfully disagree with Cactusjumper about the stone maps being exclusively of the Superstitions on these grounds; they could be used to "fit" with any of several different areas even within Arizona...'. Depending on our level of denial (I'm as guilty, probably more so than most), we will fit map/descriptive clues to our match own theories and explain away all discrepancies. For every 'map' without specific landmark identifications, I'll show you a hundred location possibilities - yes, even on quad sheets.

To me, primarily because of the blatant Tumlinson (conspirator? or dupe?) neon-red flags, I still sense a fundamental problem with these stones. They may well lead (or did at one time) to something of great value somewhere for those who know how to read them, but I haven't seen an explanation yet that I would bank on.

 

[Old Dog]

Well stated Homar,
When looking at the way the Spanish made the maps we have today ...
There are a lot of spelling and grammatical errors. When this was studied by several people it was discovered that the misspelled words were coded into the map or manuscript. The letters all had a numerical value, and gave a number in reference to a verse from the Catholic Bible or when added together referred to a distance to be traveled.

If these stones were made in true Spanish fashion there will be a given number of these kind of coded entries.
There are several Books out that deal with these theories, and I look forward to seeing what everyone comes up with.
One thing to remember is that when measuring in distances the measurement should be in Spanish as well.
A Spanish inch is .914 of the standard inch we use now Making a vara 30 inches.
An example to use ... the map says go 600 varas East. If we use standard inches a vara is 33 inches ...We miss the mark by 150 feet.
That is a lot when chasing Spanish marks.
I am discovering that this is the biggest problem most Spanish hunters Have,
and why the discouragement level is so high.

 

[cactusjumper]

Beth,

There is a bit of a difference between drawing a map of a, relatively, small area and a country. If you are drawing a map of a localized area, and you have some peaks 4-5,000 ft. in that area, you need only do some climbing to see a topographic map laid out below you. I have done that many times. There are specific places on the Stone Maps, where almost every feature on them can be seen.

The first is Superstition Peak. Because of its elevation that portion of the Stone Maps is very accurate and detailed. That fact can be confirmed by anyone who wants to make the climb, or perhaps knows enough about Google Earth to get the same view.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies , gentlemen" don't forget the codo, aprox. 1/2 vara.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

So far, not one person has commented as to why Don Jose was "correct" about the 8th. "place" on the Stone Map Trail being an important location. No guesses......I have talked about it before.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Springfield,

To me, primarily because of the blatant Tumlinson (conspirator? or dupe?) neon-red flags, I still sense a fundamental problem with these stones.

I am still waiting to hear what these red flags are that you keep referring to. There are theories that have been put forth by Azmula, but I have seen ZERO hard evidence that Tumlinson did anything but exactly what he said he did. You still have yet to show anything that could be substantiated.

I have corresponded with Azmula MANY times over the years, and I have all the respect in the world for his research, but have yet to see anything hard to prove his theory. He has shared a lot of information with me (some of which I am still not able to share), but again Springfield, back to your hypothesis:

1. Conspirator: Tumlinson kept the Stone Maps a complete secret (for the most part) from the day he found them in 1949 until after his death in 1961. A SECRET FOR TWELVE YEARS! OVER A DOZEN PRIVATE TRIPS TO THE SUPERS TRYING TO SOLVE THE MAPS! NEVER TRIED TO SELL THEM ONCE IN THOSE TWELVE YEARS! REALLY? CONSPIRATOR? REALLY? NO, those are not the actions of anything like a conspirator in a hoax.

2. Dupe: Who would have duped him? His grandfather? REALLY? A few people claimed to have found the stones and sold them to Tumlinson, BUT NONE OF THEM CAN PROVE ANY OF THEIR ALLEGATIONS! WHO WOULD HAVE DUPED HIM?

Sorry Spring, but that dog don't hunt. You keep trotting him out, but he never brings back a duck! HAHAHA

If you can show me ONE time that something Tumlinson said has been PROVEN to be false, I will give you the benefit over Tumlinson, but so far I have to stick with his word over your postulations. Not trying to be a dick, but facts are facts, and the fact is that Travis Tumlinson by all accounts never got caught in any lies insofar as I have ever seen. Never was busted with some attempt to defraud anyone (i.e. Michael Bilbrey or "Crazy" Jake). He seems for all intents and purposes to be nothing more than a retired Police Officer from Hood River, Oregon who found some very interesting Stone Maps.

Best-Mike

 

[Jim Hatt]

Travis Tumlinson by all accounts never got caught in any lies insofar as I have ever seen. Never was busted with some attempt to defraud anyone (i.e. Michael Bilbrey or "Crazy" Jake).

Great post Mike,

But just as a point of clarification.. Even tho both Bilbrey and "Jake" were strong believers in the authenticity of the stone maps. The maps themselves were not directly involved in the "Scams" they were convicted of. Bilbrey's conviction was for being involved in some kind of "Snake Oil" cure, and Jakes primary source of information that he used to attract inverters, was supposed to have been 2 boxes of information and maps that he claimed to have been given by Erwin Ruth.

Best,

Jim

 

[gollum]

Travis Tumlinson by all accounts never got caught in any lies insofar as I have ever seen. Never was busted with some attempt to defraud anyone (i.e. Michael Bilbrey or "Crazy" Jake).

Great post Mike,

But just as a point of clarification.. Even tho both Bilbrey and "Jake" were strong believers in the authenticity of the stone maps. The maps themselves were not directly involved in the "Scams" they were convicted of. Bilbrey's conviction was for being involved in some kind of "Snake Oil" cure, and Jakes primary source of information that he used to attract inverters, was supposed to have been 2 boxes of information and maps that he claimed to have been given by Erwin Ruth.

Best,

Jim

Jim,

Their personal beliefs regarding the Stone Maps have absolutely nothing to do with my post. The point I was making was strictly as to Tumlinson's Character. If, all you have, is his version of what happened, then you have to look at the person. If anyone could show that he was a less than honest person by having been proven a liar or fraud for anything (not just to do with the Stone Maps), then there would be a good reason to second guess his story.

Take, for instance, Michael Bilbrey. We have nothing but his word regarding how he came to possess the Stone Crosses, SO, we need to look at the person and his character. He WAS convicted of fraud in whatever snakeoil scheme he was involved in (having nothing to do with the Stone Crosses). THAT tells us something about his character, and makes me look much more skeptically at his story.

Same goes for Crazy Jake.

Both of them could be telling the God's Honest Truth regarding their respective stories, BUT, since we have nothing but their word to go by, we can plainly see that they have some character issues that make a rational person read their stories with a large grain of salt. Travis Tumlinson, on the other hand, has never been proven to have any such character flaws, and as such, I am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt as to his version of his story.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

As a quick aside for Springfield,

The map that Tumlinson drew that shows where he found the stones was drawn by him for HIS BROTHER Robert. He told Robert the story about how he found the stones.

If he got them from his grandfather "Pegleg", don't you think Robert would have known the truth? Do you REALLY think Travis would have BS'ed his own brother (who by the way, he gave the stones to when he became ill)? REALLY?

Best-Mike