The Peralta Stones

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies & Gentlemen: About that "8", I am 'almost' convinced, but, further study gives me the distinct impression that it was originally an "8" , later corrected to a 'B', reasons??

In the horse map, B-2, Under an enlargement, the two intersecting curves of the right , middle side of the 'B' do not meet forming the short horizontal bar until later in the figure going to the left., almost half way to the 'could be' vertical, fore bar of the 'B'.

Also notice the front of the front vertical bar, it definitely shows as a curve for an '8', it does not have the clean lines of the other vertical bars.

None of the others figures, B-3, Witches map, do 'P', 'R', & 'B's show this tendency, on the contrary, they are remarkably consistant in meeting in the beginning quickly forming the a clean, sharp horizontal bar with a definite clean, front edge of the vertical.

My present, bewildered, conclusion is that an '8' was the original figure, with a later attempt to make an 'B' out of it --- to meet a preconceived opinion of what it should be in correct spelling, or to hide the fact that the '8' had a critical factor involved.

Hmmmm I have spent this morning examining every available photograph on the net of these stones. DUH

 

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[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"Ettore" had a serious penchant for Chevas and Mexican Beer. If he was involved in creating the Priest/Horse Stones, I believe he would have been having a good time while doing them. One thing to remember, is that he was an English speaker who learned to speak Spanish/Mexican. That is another important clue to the creator of those particular engravings.

On the other hand, you will have to explain what "El Co"8"ollo De Santa Fe" means.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Don Jose:
As I said previously "If it were an "8",it would probably be calling attention to the "8" on the lower trail map,as well as the small "8" at the rear of the horse."
Those two eights are very important.The small eight on the horse map is the physical point from which one can see both the "E" at the rear of the horse and the ****.
The larger eight is a scraping on a hill side that appears vertical when viewed from the beginning of the trail...and horizontal when viewed from the end of the trail.Where those two lines cross,who knows,maybe DG left us that bottle of 1847 Chevas Regal,along with 18 pieces of art in 10 pvc pipes,painted while studying under Diego Rivera and Jose Clemente Orozco, that he once displayed at Palacio de Bellas Artes.Then again,he was married in the jungles of Mexico in 1947 and bought 10-acres in the early 1950s to build his Gallery in the Sun.....see how easy this is...18 and 47 and 10.
It has been claimed that someone found and dug up those paintings years ago,so I didn't bother to take a shovel with me.There was one piece of DeGrazia style handiwork still there,however.There is a duplicate on the grounds of the Gallery in Tucson.A similar feature can be found at the Little Gallery as well.

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

Although this piece of rock is not the "handiwork" that I mentioned in the previous post,and it lies some distance from the place where Ward claimed the art was buried,at the beginning of a dangerous trail.It "could" have been left by DG I suppose.
Mighta had some pieces of heartstone left over,yknow.

Regards:SH.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Joe,

No, no - please do not understand. Museums, the vast majority, certainly don't exist to make money - I did not mean that, I'm talking about,
which I have already said - all the monetary trades that go on around them. It's not just the museum, its all the places that make money because the museum is there - and because there are folks, like us, who spend money going to see the stones (and other things). I like museums, all the ones I've been to - but, please re-read my previous post.

Tourism is based on the places and things you can go and see. They will never tell us if they are fakes.

And, speaking of fakes - I'm impressed Jim - how you know exactly how to make fakes. Here's a thought, though. You don't HAVE to make fake stone to make fake Stone maps. All you need is some time and REAL STONE - like I've said before, my brother is a stone-man, has been for years, and I would take bets that most folks could not tell a 1700's headstone, from one he make last year.

With the Shroud, the pieces taken off were miniscule, and even in miniscule pieces, over 100 people got a piece. Do you think that they can have over 100 different people test the material of the Stones?

Here is another thought - maybe some of the lightly printed stuff is from people mucking around with them for testing, etc?

The Stones are real, without a doubt- I mean, that is really ridiculous to think a faker would go through all the trouble of making fake rock- what's ON them, and when it was written - is the issue. And it is already over 60 years old since we have had them public - so, I do not
think ANY testing is really valid. (at this point).

SH,
I know your post was aimed at Roy, but the fact of the matter is - many folks think the maps lead to different states - primarily New Mexico, Utah and Nevada. (and they are as convinced as anyone else, who think they are in the Supes).

Actually, I've probably done more research on the stones than Roy - and I have some other issues that have already been discussed, big time, which, of course is the spelling. I found it difficult to think that someone could do all this combination latin, spanish, things like PI and omega
and drawings (which, by the way, looks nothing like Ted D., ever made), and cannot spell correctly, even at the supposed "slow" pace of hand
depiction. Then the Busca el coazon - if it was a spelling mistake, really kind of means search the heart (if heart was spelled correctly).

I don't have several copies of the Time Mag article, but I'm probably one of the few that has an original from 1964 (I've always been a treasure bug, even when I was a teen,), and I've spent a fair amount of time, over the years, "deciphering" - but, and I keep coming back to it, time after time - it is difficult for me to get over the misspellings. Making the assumption that they are real - and made by the folks who did much of the teaching of the times - there is absolutely NO explanation that I have found - for the misspellings. Which leads me to - did someone make them over 100 years ago as a "fraud" back then? (I know, Reavis does leap to mind).

How can one be so worried about depictions when the actual spelling is incorrect? Even if they are real, if you can make such a major mistake as spelling (and no, I do not believe it was misspelled on purpose), how many other mistakes have been made on the stones?

One more question - what other things have the supposed makers of the Peralta Stones made out of stone? (besides natural structures that people think are Jesuit-made)

Beth

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

As I see it, the 8 has drawn all the attention it needs.....on its own. That's like the small crosses are saying, HEY! did you see the big cross? The 8-N-P has been a major focus point for everyone trying to "read" the Stone Maps.......including us.

For the area the maps lead you into, I realize that my map overlay is just way too simple. It has to be harder than that. I find that very much akin to changing the "B" to an 8. Perhaps they are telling us to change the 8 to a "B".

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Well, if the stones are real, nothing on them can get "too much" attention.

If they are real, why would the makers put anything unnecessary on them? They wouldn't, imo. If real, everything is vital, and missing one simple part, like the 8 or whatever, would be a BIG mistake if you are trying to "read" them.

B

 

[Jim Hatt]

And, speaking of fakes - I'm impressed Jim - how you know exactly how to make fakes. Here's a thought, though. You don't HAVE to make fake stone to make fake Stone maps. All you need is some time and REAL STONE - like I've said before, my brother is a stone-man, has been for years, and I would take bets that most folks could not tell a 1700's headstone, from one he make last year.

Beth,

Please grab your nearest dictionary and look up the difference between the meaning of the words "Fake" and "Reproduction".

I think you are terribly confused about the difference.

My reproductions are "REAL"... Even if they were to turn out to be reproductions of "fakes".



Best,

Jim

 

[Cubfan64]

Mrs. Oro said...

With the Shroud, the pieces taken off were miniscule, and even in miniscule pieces, over 100 people got a piece. Do you think that they can have over 100 different people test the material of the Stones?

I doubt they would do that, but there are non-destructive tests that could be done by several unbiased laboratories on the SAME small samples (say 3 or 4 from different spots?).

There are more than a few things that can and should be done to maintain the integrity of the stones as well as any samples taken. For something like this, if the approval goes through, the absolute first thing I would do is get an expert to put together a statistical analytical sampling plan - we have a saying in the analytical world I'm sure alot of you are familiar with - crap in, crap out. Without a good sampling and testing plan before ANYTHING else is done, you leave yourself open to way too many different interpretations of the final results. At best, you aren't able to make statistically valid conclusions, at worst, you've wasted your time and possibly made incorrect conclusions.

I'm really interested to see where this goes - I'd love to see this done right!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Cactus Joe: You posted --> On the other hand, you will have to explain what "El Co"8"ollo De Santa Fe" means.
************
He he I have a vivid spatial imagination, how about ----->

El Co 8 ollo de Santa Fe

El va a COntar al 8 hoyo " " "
He counts/continues to the 8 th hole. of Sainted faith (Cross)??

First try, how many do I get?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

If you just add George into the mix, we have come full circle back into Utah. I don't know why I never considered the eighth hole at the St. George Golf Course. The perfect place for the Jesuits to hide their treasures.

I think you are getting much closer.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

I think there are some folks who know a bit more about that glue, than any of us, and they are not going to do any talking. It may happen, but I would not hold my breath. No matter how many board members Jim has "interested", it's not their decesion to make.

My guess is that Jim coming over here is nothing more than a trial baloon trying to gain support for his theory. After all, he already has you on board. A few more and this thing could snowball into a no brainer.

Just my opinion, so I could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Jim Hatt]

Must be difficult to go through life seeing conspiracies every where you look Joe.

Some things just... "are what they are".... Nothing more... Nothing less.

I entered this conversation to give Mike a chance to catch his breath, and gather his thoughts between attacks on the authenticity of the stone maps.

It was someone here that posted the nice clear photo of the maps on the car bumper, that caught my attention when I noticed that I could see the break in the heart in it. If the break was there then, then something must have been holding it together at that time.

Simple power of observation. No conspiracies, no hidden agendas and no theories involved. Just one of those "Ah Ha"!!! moments that happen to everyone every now and then. Well... Most everyone anyway. Some people never have them because they suspect everything is a conspiracy.

Best,

Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

Jim,

No doubt Mike appreciates your efforts. I know you feel you are royalty, but it takes more than one person to make a conspiracy. Unless you bring in Lone Wolf, Jan or any of your other identities, even with that giant ego of yours, you are unable to form a conspiracy by yourself.

No one was "tag teaming" Mike. We were all expressing our opinions. Unlike you, Mike doesn't have a problem with opposing opinions. He can take care of his own back, and debate.

You come here to attack me and stir up trouble. It happens each and every time you arrive, no matter what identity you show up as. Same as in the old days on the LDM Forum. There is no supreme ruler here Jim, if you want to continue in that roll, DesertUSA is the place.

As long as you continue to post your nonsense, I will continue to state my opinion.

Good luck with the test on the glue.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Jim Hatt]

Jim,

it takes more than one person to make a conspiracy. Unless you bring in Lone Wolf, Jan or any of your other identities, even with that giant ego of yours, you are unable to form a conspiracy by yourself.

Joe Ribaudo

You are chasing ghosts Joe. Someday you will understand that, and realize how much of your life you have wasted in the process.
If you're lucky that is...


I have dealt with more Jan's and Lone Wolves in my life than you could ever hope to imagine. That's life. Learn to cope with it.
Best,

Jim

P.S. The "Glue Test" is out of my hands. I had the idea and passed it on. It's up to someone way above my pay grade to "Make it happen".

 

[SGnAZ]

Interesting conversation taking place here.
Joe,great avatar photo

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Steve,

Hope all is well with you and Kathi.

I agree that it's interesting.

Are you guys going to make it to the Rendezvous? We certainly hope so.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

One result.... a search of "Busca el Coazon/1690" turns up many literary examples of a religious nature.....Mostly in Spanish.
A search of "the Jesuits/1690 turns up many more potential leads.

Regards:SH.

I guess the point is that the poster 'Tignas' refers to a document dated 1650, not 1690, that quotes exactly the same language as that which is carved into the stones. This quote, if Jesuit in origin, predates Kino, et al, and if Jesuit, seems to have had to originate in Sonora, their northern frontier at that time. If the quote itself originated in Sonora, one might wonder if the inspiration for the quote also originated in Sonora - after all, the 'dangerous trail', '18 locations', sounds site specific. Another option, of course, is that the inspiration originated in the Superstitions, but would require Jesuit knowledge of '18 locations' far to the north of their mid-17th century location. 'Santa Fe', also refered to on the stones, was firmly established in 1650, but it was located in New Mexico, not Arizona. Makes you wonder.

Many would immediately disregard the obscure 'Tignas' post as a mistake, irrelevent, a typo, etc., and it may well be one of these or something else. However, if it was me who had a deep interest or obsession in these stones, I would certainly want to get to the bottom of the 'Tignas' post, one way or another. I wouldn't be surprised if 'Tignas' was impossible to find, but you never know.

 

[somehiker]

Hi Springfield:
I started my brief search with the date,1650,then 1660....to....1690.Thats where I found the most references to"Busca el Coazon".Thats why the /1690.
I haven't done any searching since,but I failed to find any references to 18 places,trails,or maps on line that may have been relevant.Could be that the "document" that he was referring to was the Priest map,or an article about the stones where he just got the date wrong.Not much to go on,really.

The "eighteen" places is somewhat puzzling to me,despite my belief that I have hiked and climbed that trail.As I said before,much of it is loose rock and very steep.Although I was probably off of the original trail by as much as fifty feet or so in places due to recent rock slides and heavy brush,I failed to find any other stones similar to the one at the beginning and the one at the end.I was more concerned with maintaining my footing at the time to look for any.The trail also runs perilously close to a couple of shear cliffs so indeed,I would call it dangerous.The rest of the time,I used two other routes,longer but safer to travel.

What has me curious,though,is that 18 markers appear to be a case of overkill,for this trail does not seem to be long enough to require that many.The markers are very small,though,and not that prominent.That curiosity is one of the reasons that I have suggested that,perhaps the trail maps were meant to be re-used for each stage of the journey.They..together..IMO give greater detail than the trail depiction on the Horse Stone,which only goes as far as the horse itself,as I understand it.


Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

Wayne,

As I see it, the 8 has drawn all the attention it needs.....on its own. That's like the small crosses are saying, HEY! did you see the big cross? The 8-N-P has been a major focus point for everyone trying to "read" the Stone Maps.......including us.

For the area the maps lead you into, I realize that my map overlay is just way too simple. It has to be harder than that. I find that very much akin to changing the "B" to an 8. Perhaps they are telling us to change the 8 to a "B".

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe:
I personally do not think that the B is,or was originally an "8".The upper and lower left corners are too squared off for it to have been an eight that was changed to a B.I have already expressed my thoughts regarding both of the "8's" on the lower trail map,as well as my favoured understanding of the meaning of the "8-N-P".I would be interested to read yours.

I would also like to know what your opinion is,regarding the Perficio Map.As I understand it,the Perficio map was the first map of this type,discovered in the early 1900's by Abe Reid.

Regards:Wayne