The Peralta Stones

Roger made another interesting observation as well.

"I used a magnifying glass (2X, 4X, and 6X) to examine the stones and saw no evidence of tooling marks or drill starter holes at the beginning of each letter on the stones."

There are other mineral inclusions evident on the Heart,likely of the same type as that which he noticed as the fault which weakened the one lobe of the heart.

Here is a closeup,from one of my own pics ,taken recently,of the Santa Fe to which Roger refers in the post.

Regards:SH.
 

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Bill96,

This was our home at Vallecito. Next time your up there, take a look at the view from the front porch:

image0-15.jpg


There's a very knowledgeable Dutch Hunter living at Vallecito right now.

Take care,

Joe
 

Was looking on a language forum (WordReference.com) and found the following post from 'Tignas', 12/14/2005:

Esta Bereda es Peligroza - Yo Boy 18 Lugares - Busca el Mapa - Busca el Coazon
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The above phrase appears on a document which dates from 1650. The language is Castilian, as spoken in the Americas during the Spanish Colonial period. Can anyone accurately translate this to English? Thanks.

The only other posts by 'Tignas' on the forum came a couple years later. These refer to a 1900 document, but whether the later document references the 1650 document referred to above isn't clear:

3/19/2008: Jongo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While reading a family history, recorded in 1900 by an 86 year old Spanish gentleman, I encountered the word "jongo." The word was used with regard to an alignment of stones and a fruit tree. I'm confused as to the meaning of jongo. Has anyone encountered this word? 3/20/2008: I suspect it might refer to a triangle arrangement.

3/20/2008: Los Mirays
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While reading through a family history, written in 1900 by an old Spanish gentleman, I encountered a place name "Los Mirays." It is believed to be located in the United States, north of the Grand Canyon. Is anyone familiar with this place name?

It would be interesting to see the 1650 document 'Tignas' refers to (and possibly the 1900 as well, if they are related). If the 1650 document truly exists, much of the text appearing on the 'Peralta stones' seems to have been copied from it.
 

"Most of the additives just leave me with a feeling of later graffiti, or an attempt to simple confuse factors. I sincerely doubt that the orig. author would add them to help decipher the data, on the contrary, data would be eliminated to increase the confusion."

Indeed,Don Jose,the many scratchings and shallow engravings do add to the confusion that results from viewing the stones.But only if one attempts to individually study the stones.There may have been some lettering added to the stones post discovery,in order to suggest a "mexican" origin,possibly by one of the early custodians who felt that they were maps to the Peralta mines.The majority of the less prominent symbols and letters could have been there from the beginning as well.They do seem to assist in guiding the map reader from the first stone to the last IMO.They also appear to provide orientation information,crucial for pathfinding ones way to the end of the trail that the stones represent.
There is one theme, symbolized throughout the entire set of stone maps and represented on every map from the Perficio stone,to the Stone Crosses,to the Stone Maps (I consider the H/P stone to be a single map),and last but not least, the Latin Heart.

Regards:SH.
 

SH my friend--

Esta Bereda es Peligroza - Yo Boy 18 Lugares - Busca el Mapa - Busca el Coazon
****************

this trail is dangerous - I go to 18 places - look / search the map - look for the heart

Don Jose de La Mancha
 

Don: That is a phrase that Springfield quoted in his post.I am well aware of the translation,and believe as well,that I have walked and climbed that very trail.
It is indeed,difficult and dangerous.The last half,of the section on the lower trail map, can only be negotiated by traversing a very steep slope of loose rock in a zig zag manner.There is a sheer drop off waiting below for the unwary who happen to lose their footing.

Springfield:
It would be also very interesting to know the context of the passage that the phrase appeared in,as well as who the author was.

Regards:SH.
 

The replies that "Tignas" received also seem to make moot any question as to the veracity of the language inscribed upon the stones.

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Re: Esta Bereda es Peligroza - Yo Boy 18 Lugares - Busca el Mapa - Busca el Coazon
Hi, tignas, and welcome to the forum.

orgullomore did it perfectly. let me add the modern spelling:

Esta vereda es peligrosa - yo voy (a) 18 lugares - busca el mapa - busca el corazón

Saludos.

SH.
 

somehiker said:
... Springfield:
It would be also very interesting to know the context of the passage that the phrase appeared in,as well as who the author was.

Regards:SH.
Click to expand...

Very interesting, if not monumental, it seems. Could be a good project for a capable ferret.
 

Springfield said:
somehiker said:
... Springfield:
It would be also very interesting to know the context of the passage that the phrase appeared in,as well as who the author was.

Regards:SH.
Click to expand...

Very interesting, if not monumental, it seems. Could be a good project for a capable ferret.
Click to expand...

One result.... a search of "Busca el Coazon/1690" turns up many literary examples of a religious nature.....Mostly in Spanish.
A search of "the Jesuits/1690 turns up many more potential leads.

Regards:SH.
 

Somehiker wrote
Even the most ardent of the "modernist" proponents had offered no thoughts regarding this detail.It does seem,however,now that Jim Hatt has pointed out a possibility of dating the bonding substance,that they now have no shortage of ideas,(including the threat of a "petition" against the sampling),as to why this should not be done
Click to expand...

In case you mis-read or mis-understood what I wrote, I said I SUPPOSE that I COULD start writing EMs, and at the time, the substance was not mentioned, only a "chemical test" and most tests are destructive; I am still against any kind of destructive testing, but the glue (an ingenious idea IMHO that had never occurred to me, however this has issues as well) is not original to the stone, and presumably not original to the carvings either. Side note but I don't make threats. If I were going to "petition" I would do it, not say "I suppose I could".

The glue - it is possible that the glue may have been an OLD glue when used. I have some hide glue that is nearly 100 years old, and still good to use; obviously it would not be hide glue, for that will let go when wet. If there was an OLD repair, as in 163 years old, it is possible that it was not holding when found, was then cleaned off and re-glued with NEW glue. So it doesn't give hard and fast answers, but a smart idea and I credit Jim for thinking outside the box.

I don't know why so many people are dead-sure the Peralta Stones even apply to the Superstitions; there is reason to suspect it is supposed to apply to a very different area altogether. For one thing, "El Paso" of the North is in Texas; the known Jesuit (and later Franciscan) missions are all located out of the Superstitions, so the spot where the 'witch-priest' stands may be referring to Dolores or Arizpe. The fact that geographic locations can be matched with the stone maps really doesn't prove they are supposed to be maps of those mountains! Look at the maps; do they look like they were drawn by a master cartographer? A map drawn by someone NOT so expert, will not be SO well done as to match the topography very well. Scale is one problem, hand-drawn maps almost always are OFF in scale at various places on them. These stone maps seem to "fit" a modern topographic map TOO well, to have been drawn in the 1800's even. Who is to say that the scale of the stone maps is of a size as to fit the Superstitions, and not several STATES?

The more I look at these things, the more I suspect they don't actually refer to the Superstitions at all. Maybe the Dillmans were on to something? Can someone point out some specific mark/symbol/sign ON the stone maps, that absolutely and undeniably MUST refer to a specific geographic/topographic feature in the Superstitions? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco
 

Roy,

IMHO, the maps are of the Superstitions to the exclusion of any other location.

Testing the glue was a good idea. There are any number of people who might have been able to get that test done, but I don't believe that Jim Hatt is one of them. The general consensus of those who have custody of the maps, is that they are not the real thing. That is seldom an opinion that you will hear publically.

As I have been saying since Jim floated this little mystery game here, it ain't gonna happen. On the other hand, as I have also said, I would like to see him get it done. I assume the reason he gave it up here, is that he knows there is little chance such testing will be approved.

Since that's just my opinion, I could be wrong, :dontknow:.....but I seriously doubt it.

Take care,

Joe
 

If the stones WERE to be tested, in any way, it would be against all odds that, if they were real - that they would make those conclusions known.

They make millions holding on to those stones and letting people see them, and letting them go on tour, etc. If they were proved to be fakes, we would never know. It would be monetary suicide for the owners and handlers. If they said they were real, after testing, I would question, very highly, who did the testing, what was tested and what relationship that person(s) had to former owners, current owners, current or future investors.

Nothing on the stones could be tested anyway. Anything that was tested on the stone that was not there when the original pictures were taken is an addition, and could be at least 60+ years old already. I mean, look how long ago they were "found". Heck, if we just wait another 40 years, we can say, without a doubt, that they are 100 years old, and be confident that we are right.

Beth
 

Springfield,

[3/19/2008: Jongo
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
While reading a family history, recorded in 1900 by an 86 year old Spanish gentleman, I encountered the word "jongo." The word was used with regard to an alignment of stones and a fruit tree. I'm confused as to the meaning of jongo. Has anyone encountered this word? 3/20/2008: I suspect it might refer to a triangle arrangement.]

That seems a strange question, as you can find the word with a simple search. Jongo is a music/dance style or, it can be a song in riddle form, used to hide the meaning of slaves singing it when the "masters" were near. (I think in South Amer.) If we are talking Mexico, Jongo was a hacienda in the 1800s. I don't think you can google that hacienda thingie.

Oops.....Scratch that last comment. I didn't realize "Wealth and power in provincial Mexico: Michoacán from the late colony......" By Margaret Chowning was on line. It looks like Peru is in the "hacienda" mix as well.

I know you didn't ask the question.

Take care,

Joe
 

Good Morning Beth,

"They make millions holding on to those stones and letting people see them, and letting them go on tour, etc. If they were proved to be fakes, we would never know. It would be monetary suicide for the owners and handlers. If they said they were real, after testing, I would question, very highly, who did the testing, what was tested and what relationship that person(s) had to former owners, current owners, current or future investors."

The Stone Maps have never been a big money making item.......for anyone. They are on loan, for two years, to the Superstition Mountain Museum.

Take care,

Joe
 

Morning, Joe,

I know they are on loan - but the loanee and the loaner, are collecting money - they brought them to Sioux Falls for exhibition awhile ago - the charge - to get in - $20.00 per adult. We didn't go. (Sioux Falls is a few hours away). They were only there for one day - on their way to somewhere else.

Also, they charge to see them at the Supe Museum - actually, they charge to go in. Plus, they have all that wonderful stuff for sale, AND, let's
be frank - there is also the Don's Club and every single other institution and business who depends on the LDM ALSO depends on the Stones
in a big way.

Also, the Arizona Mining and Mineral Museum has traveling exhibits - including the Stones (before they were lent out). There are people making money from the Stones. (and of course, everybody buys stuff when they get there - including me)

Nobody who profits from any "well-known story", whether it is the LDM, or the Peralta Stones, or Roswell, NM or the like, would EVER want to have the stories unproven.

Rosewell New Mexico has what to see when you go there? Nothing, but a sign. But an entire city makes more than 75% of their living on a piece of ground with a sign on it. How would that go if Roswell was "proven" to be a hoax, or whatever? It would dry up and blow away, much like it was many years ago before the "sightings".

That's the kind of money I'm talking about. It's like any other tourist thing - nobody would go to Niagra Falls if it dried up, or go to Sturgis South Dakota if they stopped the Bike Rally, and what would Indianapolis be without a racetrack - or some major races - or Daytona? Certain things draw people - if you lose that "thing", you no longer draw the tourists.


Beth
 

If I had to guess, I would say that if the analysis is done, it will simply bolster one sides position (whether they are truly old or of fairly recent origin). I'm certain it won't prove anything beyond a shadow of a doubt, and I'm just as certain that the "other side" will have plenty of ways to poke holes in the conclusions.

That said, I still believe it's worth the shot and is a very good "outside the box" thought that has merit.

I know to some of you this will sound like a very silly reason for NOT really getting involved in researching and studying the Stone Maps, but what if - just what if - there are more parts to the map that haven't been found? One could easily spend an entire lifetime trying to follow a map without the full map if that makes sense?

Personally I think they are very interesting and I'd love to know the true history of them including who made them, why and what they lead to, but I have other paths I want to follow, and I would have a difficult time focusing all my time on one thing like this.

That said however, I would love to see proof positive answers to some of the questions above during my lifetime and as Oro so often says, I hope those who follow the Stone Maps find the end of the rainbow someday.
 

Good morning Roy:

"I don't know why so many people are dead-sure the Peralta Stones even apply to the Superstitions; there is reason to suspect it is supposed to apply to a very different area altogether. For one thing, "El Paso" of the North is in Texas; the known Jesuit (and later Franciscan) missions are all located out of the Superstitions, so the spot where the 'witch-priest' stands may be referring to Dolores or Arizpe. The fact that geographic locations can be matched with the stone maps really doesn't prove they are supposed to be maps of those mountains! Look at the maps; do they look like they were drawn by a master cartographer? A map drawn by someone NOT so expert, will not be SO well done as to match the topography very well. Scale is one problem, hand-drawn maps almost always are OFF in scale at various places on them. These stone maps seem to "fit" a modern topographic map TOO well, to have been drawn in the 1800's even. Who is to say that the scale of the stone maps is of a size as to fit the Superstitions, and not several STATES?

The more I look at these things, the more I suspect they don't actually refer to the Superstitions at all. Maybe the Dillmans were on to something? Can someone point out some specific mark/symbol/sign ON the stone maps, that absolutely and undeniably MUST refer to a specific geographic/topographic feature in the Superstitions? Thank you in advance;
Oroblanco "

These last two paragraphs demonstrate the confusion that so many have experienced while

attempting to understand the Stone Maps.They often base their arguments on conflicting

theories that previous analysts have published,such as combining Joe's Topo-match theory

with the "Aztlan/Montezuma's Treasure" theory of the Dillman family's DVD as a foundation on

which to build their own theories.Thus your statement "These stone maps seem to

"fit" a modern topographic map TOO well, to have been drawn in the 1800's even

",which is an obvious reference to Joe's theory,is at odds with your following

statement "The more I look at these things, the more I suspect they don't

actually refer to the Superstitions at all. Maybe the Dillmans were on to something?

".

Beth:
Your last two posts suggest that you believe the SMHS museum exists primarily to make money.You also stated..."If the stones WERE to be tested, in any way, it would be against all odds that, if they were real - that they would make those conclusions known.".Do you really believe that the motives of........
President, Gregory E. Davis
Vice President, Jim Geil , Past President, Rene Lesieutre
Secretary/Treasurer, Lanna Mesenbrink
Recording Secretary, Shirley Baer
President Emeritus, George E. Johnston
President Emeritus, Clay Worst
Director Library, Research & Acquisitions, Gregory E. Davis
Director, Edward Birmingham
Director, Bob Biava, Director, Jack D. Harmon
Director, Duane Kreckow, Director, Patricia McNamara,
Director, Phillip Reinhardt, Directorr, Barry Sutter, Director, Thomas Smith
....are based on collecting money from "tourists"....
"Nobody who profits from any "well-known story", whether it is the LDM, or the Peralta Stones, or Roswell, NM or the like, would EVER want to have the stories unproven."

Personally,I feel that those listed above,as well as those at the Arizona Mining and Mineral Museum, would rather know and disseminate the truth,than hide it in order to increase the money flow.

Your recent defence of the Lost Dutchman State Park,in the face of it's announced closure by the State,was admirable.The park also depends on many of these same "tourists" and the money they bring.
These Stones sure do sow confusion,don't they?

Regards:SH.
 

Beth and Wayne,

While the primary purpose of museums is NOT to make money, it goes without saying that they all need money to survive. In modern times those numbers have risen dramatically, while interest from the public has not risen in proportion to the populations.

A number of years ago, the Arizona Mineral and Mining Museum advertised the public showing, not behind glass cases, of the Stone Maps. Carolyn and I decided to go down after talking to some of the directors of the museum.

The maps were on display in a room upstairs. We went into and out of the room a number of times in the four hours we were there. There was no additional charge to see and photograph the stones. In the entire time we were there, as I recall, only two other people even came into the room.....that we saw. Both were Dutch Hunters.

The interest in the stones, that day, was at a fever pitch.......among the four of us. ::) Well, actually, Carolyn didn't really have much of a fever and was more interested in the jewelry. :) For most of the world, outside of Dutch Hunters, I believe the stones are simply a little known curiosity. Wow! Did you see the Native American Jewelry??? :o, kind of thing.

The charge for photographing the maps, is a $40.......donation. It's not really a fee, as you wouldn't have to donate, if you didn't want to.That being said, they will make some money, but the stones have never generated "millions". Here is a little current information on the AMM Museum:

http://minmumad.blogspot.com/2010/06/whats-happening-to-arizona-mineing-and.html

Your first clue as to the earning power of the Stone Maps, is the fact that they were loaned to our museum for two years. It's possible, that loan will stretch into...........forever. :o

On the other hand, Phil Rhinehardt (goldbugpr) and Greg Davis deserve our thanks for being the men "behind the curtain" on this deal, as the Superstition Mountain Museum is, IMHO, the proper home for the maps.

MAXIMUM KUDOS :hello2: to both of them.

Take care,

Joe
 

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