The Peralta Stones

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi curt: I am looking forward to jim's recovery of the treasure aren't you? Course, I have been reading remarks like this since the 1940's. May be I had better be nice to Cj also? but then I do have it from the infallible rumor mill that the one that actually has it solved is DEJUICY.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[Jim Hatt]

LOL@Kurt!

Yeah right amigo! Figuring them out is the easy part.
It's all that darn leg work to prove you are right that's so hard.

Best,

Jim

 

[Jim Hatt]

So closes the chapter of the "Broken Heart". (My input to it anyway) The rest of you should have a lot to consider and discuss for quite a while.

I think I will do the next chapter "The Chemical Test" in a forum where I will not have to put up with a peanut gallery.

Best,

Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

silent hunter,

Welcome to TreasureNet. Hopefully you didn't join the site just to make clever? remarks about someone you know nothing about.

My knowledge of Jim goes back to 2002. That gives us both some insight into the character of the other. You, on the other hand, are basing your remarks on what you have seen here, and what Jim has been filling your head with.

I told Jim back when he first tried schooling me about the Stone Maps, that I already knew where he was working, as did everyone else. He knew everything there was to know more than eight years ago.
Now you know everything there is to know in one post. Like him, in eight years you will still be trying to convince everyone you have a clue to what you are talking about.

I look forward to being enlightened......again.

Thanks for including me in your thought process,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Hey Kurt,

Welcome to TNet. After that, I will have to bow out of all the personal stuff as long as none of it is directed at me.

Jim and Joe are both grown and smart guys.

Best-Mike

 

[somehiker]

It has been an interesting read this past couple of days....The reactions of the members who have proven to themselves that the Stone Maps are of modern fabrication,certainly less than 100 yrs. old at the date given for the discovery.
I ,as I am sure most of you with an interest in the stones had,long ago noticed the apparently broken and subsequently repaired Heart Stone.I can honestly say that I never gave it another thought.Throughout the many discussions regarding the stones,on this forum as well as others,past and present,I can not recall anyone suggesting that the material used for that repair could be sampled for analysis.

I would note,that the experts employed to examine the stones failed,as well,to consider the repair substance as a possible indicator of age.

Even the most ardent of the "modernist" proponents had offered no thoughts regarding this detail.It does seem,however,now that Jim Hatt has pointed out a possibility of dating the bonding substance,that they now have no shortage of ideas,(including the threat of a "petition" against the sampling),as to why this should not be done.Such an analysis of the substance,requiring very small amounts of sample,could indeed identify the material as well as date the repair(s).It seems to me that their sudden concern for the "sanctity" of the stones and opposition to such a test has revealed nothing more than their own lack of conviction.

Jim deserves our congratulations for his having found a means by which we may gain further knowledge regarding the history of the Stone Maps.I for one,think that such a test is an excellent idea,regardless of how the results may affect my own beliefs.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Good Morning Wayne,

"I would note,that the experts employed to examine the stones failed,as well,to consider the repair substance as a possible indicator of age."

Just for the record, the experts were not "employed". They were also not allowed to take any samples from the stones.

Despite what you have read, you can't tell if the heart was broken from the original picture. I have a very good copy of that picture, that can be blown up quite a bit, and the breaks that are easily visible today are not so obvious.

My picture is an 8 X 10 that came from Dr. Glover. It's from the same one that he used for his book.

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Good Morning Wayne,

"I would note,that the experts employed to examine the stones failed,as well,to consider the repair substance as a possible indicator of age."

Just for the record, the experts were not "employed". They were also not allowed to take any samples from the stones.

Despite what you have read, you can't tell if the heart was broken from the original picture. I have a very good copy of that picture, that can be blown up quite a bit, and the breaks that are easily visible today are not so obvious.

My picture is an 8 X 10 that came from Dr. Glover. It's from the same one that he used for his book.

Take care,

Joe

Mornin Joe:
By "employed",I did not mean "hired",although I have no idea if they were paid for their time or not.
I am merely pointing out that,unless their report mentions the bonding material as a possible means of dating the stones,that their analysis falls short.They could,after all ,have prudently suggested in their report that further examination/testing could have been done.

If the break is at all evident in your copy of Dr.Glover's photo,regardless of it's visibility,it merely proves that the damage had occurred prior to the photography.Many substances darken with exposure to both light and air,making them much more visible.Lighting conditions and exposure factors can also give varying results to a photograph as well.Unless someone,Greg perhaps?,can provide an account of breakage and subsequent repair, post discovery,I tend to think that a test is a good idea.

Perhaps you could scan the 8x10 and link it to a photoshare site.That way we can all see the difference.At each end of the break,there should be some edge damage(chipping) visible,at the least.

Regards:
Wayne S.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies & Gentlemen: ?? No one has seen fit to answer my questions ?? Don'y leave me hanging on a very frayed rope !

Dn Jose de La Mancha

********************

I also missed where the "8" in CA8ALLO is discussed?

Another factor that bothers me is that the curves are all too smoothly, and consistently executed to be done freehand with a chisel. hmm

For what its worth, I have never seen that type of script until the 1800's

Most of the additives just leave me with a feeling of later graffiti, or an attempt to simple confuse factors. I sincerely doubt that the orig. author would add them to help decipher the data, on the contrary, data would be eliminated to increase the confusion.

Don Jose La Mancha

 

[gollum]

COME ON JOE,

Are you telling me that you REALLY can't see the breaks in the stone that are EXACTLY in the same place they are now? REALLY?

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Wayne,

Notice where the break starts at the center of the top of the heart and how far it drops on the side.

This picture, from the original, has been lightened:

One of the folds of the photograph goes right through the area of break mentioned above.

I am of the opinion that someone was told when and how the heart was damaged. I am thinking maybe......Roger. I believe we can find out.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

I echo Somehiker's comments - I don't care who thought of the idea or what kind of past history is associated with any of it. It's an idea that has merit imho, and if the "powers that be" decide to proceed with any testing, I would think everyone would look forward to a fresh approach to this mystery of the stone maps. It may turn out that any results will be inconclusive, but I personally think it's worth trying.

As far as whether the bumper photograph shows the crack/break/repair, it's obviously open to interpretation, but I'd say it looks like it's there.

RDT - I've always thought it looked like an 8 as well, but it's just my opinion and I have no clue what it could mean.

 

[somehiker]

Ladies & Gentlemen: ?? No one has seen fit to answer my questions ?? Don'y leave me hanging on a very frayed rope !

Dn Jose de La Mancha

********************

I also missed where the "8" in CA8ALLO is discussed?

Another factor that bothers me is that the curves are all too smoothly, and consistently executed to be done freehand with a chisel. hmm

For what its worth, I have never seen that type of script until the 1800's

Most of the additives just leave me with a feeling of later graffiti, or an attempt to simple confuse factors. I sincerely doubt that the orig. author would add them to help decipher the data, on the contrary, data would be eliminated to increase the confusion.

Don Jose La Mancha

YO Don Jose:
It is hard to see in some of the photos,but the left side of the "B" appears to be a straight line when the stone is viewed from "front center".
This is evident in some of the other photos,as well as the ones that I shot this april.
If it were an "8",it would probably be calling attention to the "8" on the lower trail map,as well as the small "8" at the rear of the horse.
The missing crossbar in the "A" of P(A)STO is a much more interesting clue.

Although a chisel was likely used to begin the deeper markings and lettering,a sharp instrument would have been used to smooth and blend the lines.A rubbing block or tool of some sort would have been used for further smoothing of the lettering and symbols.Similar techniques were used by sculptors dating back to at least the ancient Egyptians and Greeks.You won't find much in the way of chisel marks on their work either.

I am certainly not an expert on the subject,but I have recently been studying a number of papers relating to the 1600 to 1800 period of Sonora.
The similarities of lettering styles varies somewhat,but does include all of the letters found on the stones...ie:an A looks like an A,an E looks like an E etc.
The stones may have been carved by someone other than a professional who was merely copying a drawing supplied to him.That drawing could have been supplied by another person untrained in the "classic" lettering of a stonemason.

Regards:SH.

 

[gollum]

Joe,

You are seeing an optical illusion.

I cut and oriented the hearts from the two pics so you can see the breaks are exactly the same.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

It seems clear in that picture. What is unclear, is if those lines are cracks in the rock, which later became broken, or if they are the mended breaks as they are today. There is never a mention of the breaks in any of the early writings, that I know of or can remember.

At this point, I am with you that it's possible it was broken when Tumlinson found the heart stone. If not, the question becomes....when was that picture taken?

Jim's test then becomes a, good, possible answer.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Mike,

It seems clear in that picture. What is unclear, is if those lines are cracks in the rock, which later became broken, or if they are the mended breaks as they are today. There is never a mention of the breaks in any of the early writings, that I know of or can remember.

At this point, I am with you that it's possible it was broken when Tumlinson found the heart stone. If not, the question becomes....when was that picture taken?

Jim's test then becomes a, good, possible answer.

Take care,

Joe

I agree Joe.

Q:Was the heart broken when Tumlinson found it?

A: The dark stains all along both cracks seem to indicate the heart was cracked and repaired long before T. found it.

Qid he get some glue and glue it up before taking the picture?

A: Nothing was EVER written stating anything like that.

Q:Was it glued when Tumlinson found it?

A: See answer to #1


Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

It looks like a "B" to me:

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

I will agree that the "bumper photo" is debatable on this point.By virtue of the poor resolution of the photo and the damage to the image as a result of the folding/creasing.Perhaps the heart within the pocket is actually the "Latin Heart"? After all,it is difficult to make out any of the markings that appear on the Heart stone.The heart in the photo also seems to be a much "looser" fit than the Map Heart.

SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

Here may be a clue from a very well respected Dutch Hunter:

______________________________________________


Roger Post subject: The Original Peralta Stone MapsPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2006 1:29 pm


Part Timer

Joined: Wed Dec 31, 1969 5:00 pm
Posts: 314 I posted the following info in an earlier thread back in March on the Peralta Stone Maps and though I would bring it forward:'

"I also saw the Stone Maps on display in the Mesa Southwest Museum in the early 1990's that were in a glass display case. After talking with the Museum staff, I learned that the ones on display were replica's and the real stones were kept in a locked vault in the back of the Museum. I inquired if I could see the real ones and they said yes, but I would have to pay $15/hr for an observer (read college student) to watch me all the time. I did this and took about 2 hrs looking at the stones in the back room on a bench. I made several etchings or rubbings of areas of the stones that I wanted to have more detail on. I also found in this examination that the words "Santa Fe" were scribed into the left hand side (not top, but the edge) of the Horse Stone and that the two "river" lines actually ran around the edge of the stone onto the side. "Santa Fe" was written between these two lines on the left side of the stone. It is obvious that if the two rivers on the Horse Stone are related to the Superstitions, then Santa Fe has to be on the right of these two rivers - not the left. However, since the word lays between the two rivers and the word Rio is shown, one has to reverse the location of "Santa Fe" in mirror fashion which puts it on the correct side. "

These were the original stone maps that I got to examine before they were moved to the Arizona Mineral & Mining Museum in Phoenix. I used a magnifying glass (2X, 4X, and 6X) to examine the stones and saw no evidence of tooling marks or drill starter holes at the beginning of each letter on the stones. The stone with "DON" on it was the most wornon that side and the Horse stone also showed signs of wear. The Heart had been cracked in two along a natural fault in the stone and later glued back. I am certainly not trained in archaeology, but from a novice's eye - - these did not look like forgeries.

In a phone discussion about the Stone Maps with Chuck Kenworthy, he acknowledged that he had also seen the "Santa Fe" marking on the stones so he must have worked with the originals that he photographed. I have placed his photo's of the Stone Maps in the Members Archive section if you want to see them.

There have been a number of reproductions made on the Stone Maps - some back in the 1970's and another group in 2002 or so. I don't know if they are all from the same set of molds, but suspect they were.

My 2 cents on the subject.

Roger
______________________________________

Roger's post also answers Roy's question if anyone had ever done rubbings. So are we looking at the "natural fault", or the actual mended breaks?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

The "B" vs. "8" question may just be a case of shadows. In this one from the LIFE magazine it looks like an 8, but it could certainly just the the photo.