The Peralta Stones

[cactusjumper]

Jim,

There is only one "substance" that might be tested from the Stone Maps. That would be the glue that is holding the heart together. Everything else is.....rock. I heard, years ago, that someone from the museum broke it. If that is true, there is not much point in trying to "date" it.

On the other hand, your efforts to have the age of the maps confirmed is to be commended, misguided as they may be. It will be interesing to see how much weight the owners/museum will give to your theory. In that regard, I wish you luck.

Having said that, I don't believe testing of the Stone Maps will be done any time soon, or anytime at all. Phil, who is on the site now, would be the one who would have the best information on that, as I believe he was the "prime mover" in getting the maps for the Superstition Mountain Museum.

Years ago, when you were a "Lone Wolf", you sent me pictures of your "heart"......and stuff. You had found everything except a treasure using your theory of the Stone Map trail. Why do you feel the need to authenticate the maps now?

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Cubfan64]

I learned that you will never be able to change a guys theory about the Stone Maps so I don't bother to present one.

Those are definitely true words! Wish I could come by to see the stones in person, but that's a bit too far for me to travel for that

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

The maps will still be at tha museum in Oct. The loan is for two years, at this time. You should be able to eyeball them while you and the wife are visiting. The museum would be something she might find interesting as well.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

....
Why don't the forum members join me at the Photo Session on June 27 @8AM it will cost you $40 bucks but it will be well worth it to see them in the sun light.

At least someone is making some dough with these things.

 

[Jim Hatt]

Jim,

There is only one "substance" that might be tested from the Stone Maps. That would be the glue that is holding the heart together. Everything else is.....rock. I heard, years ago, that someone from the museum broke it. If that is true, there is not much point in trying to "date" it.

Years ago, when you were a "Lone Wolf", you sent me pictures of your "heart"......and stuff. You had found everything except a treasure using your theory of the Stone Map trail. Why do you feel the need to authenticate the maps now?

Take care,

Joe

Well you are beginning to get some focus on the whole thing Joe, but the most important part of the big picture is still a little "Fuzzy" for you. Keep focusing.. sooner or later, it will jump right out at you like it did for me.



re: "Years ago, when you were a "Lone Wolf", you sent me pictures of your "heart"......and stuff."

I have no recollection of ever sending you anything like that Joe. I quit using the name Lone Wolf years ago when that email address was compromised, by someone who hacked their way into it. I suspect what you are referring to is something that resulted from that situation. If you will fwd me the information, I will tell you if I personally sent it out or not.

Impostors and ID Thief's are something that has always been a problem, when dealing with someone over the internet, or via email that you have never met in person. You should always verify information like that before jumping to conclusions. I cannot imagine any reason I would ever have wanted to send you any of my photos.

Best,

Jim

 

[Jim Hatt]

Jim,
This conversation sure does move quickly, very interesting. I just wanted to comment, I have been a mold maker for 20years and mold making rubber has come a long way. New Silicone rubbers can pick up fingerprints, they are very good. It would be possible to make very good reproductions of those stones in just a couple of days and the only reason you would need to use any kind of a release would be to keep from "staining" the bare stone.

Thanks,
Bill

Thanks for update on silicone rubbers Bill. The only thing could find back in 2002 when I was making my molds was the liquid latex.
I hated the idea that it took so long to completely dry before another coat could be applied, but the instructions said do not apply another coat for at least 24 hours so I complied.

If I ever attempt to do it again, I will certainly look into the silicone rubber.

Also, I did not know at the time that the latex rubber molds were going to start to disintegrate over time. A couple of them were still in usable condition when I packed them away, but after sitting for a couple of years, I looked at them again and found them to be not only degrading, but brittle and had no more flexibility, like they had when they were new.

What do you know about plaster of paris Bill? I found that stuff to be the hardest thing to work with. I carefully measured the plaster and water, but every batch seemed to come out different. Like I said... I threw away a lot more pieces than I was able to keep. Tripled my cost of materials for making a set of maps. Of course... I didn't have a teacher. I was learning everything by the trial and error method.

Is there anything better/easier to work with these days? I still get calls from people wanting a set of maps now and then, but I haven't made any more because of all the time and hassle involved with making them.



Jim

Bill96,

Why have you abandoned me on this conversation Amigo?

My supplier for the latex rubber has never heard of silicone rubber for making molds.
(maybe they just don't like the competition? )

Who makes it, and where do you buy it?



Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

Jim,

There is only one "substance" that might be tested from the Stone Maps. That would be the glue that is holding the heart together. Everything else is.....rock. I heard, years ago, that someone from the museum broke it. If that is true, there is not much point in trying to "date" it.

Years ago, when you were a "Lone Wolf", you sent me pictures of your "heart"......and stuff. You had found everything except a treasure using your theory of the Stone Map trail. Why do you feel the need to authenticate the maps now?

Take care,

Joe

Well you are beginning to get some focus on the whole thing Joe, but the most important part of the big picture is still a little "Fuzzy" for you. Keep focusing.. sooner or later, it will jump right out at you like it did for me.



re: "Years ago, when you were a "Lone Wolf", you sent me pictures of your "heart"......and stuff."

I have no recollection of ever sending you anything like that Joe. I quit using the name Lone Wolf years ago when that email address was compromised, by someone who hacked their way into it. I suspect what you are referring to is something that resulted from that situation. If you will fwd me the information, I will tell you if I personally sent it out or not.

Impostors and ID Thief's are something that has always been a problem, when dealing with someone over the internet, or via email that you have never met in person. You should always verify information like that before jumping to conclusions. I cannot imagine any reason I would ever have wanted to send you any of my photos.

Best,

Jim

Jim,

I am not just "beginning to get some focus". This was obvious from your first hints. The only thing that might be behind the curtain, so to speak, is that you might think that the repair that is visible was not the first. That being said, you would be looking for older glue beneath the new.

Now I may not have any idea what I am talking about here, that's always possible these days, and when you shoehorn the possibility that I may have only been in the Superstitions "two times" in the last 52 years, that would compound the problems.

Now about that "Lone Wolf" thingie......I knew who you were before you made that first contact. I still have our exchanges, on and off the Forum. I started, from the first, calling you Jim in our emails and you just ignored it.

Since you say it was not you, I assume you have no problem with my posting your email and private messages, along with the pictures you sent me. To be sure, I would not do that, even with your permission, but I would send them to other members privately, if you like.

It is well know that Jim Hatt is the "Computer Guy". Hard to believe you would let your email get hacked, but that's not the case with our exchanges. It was you start to finish.

I have no doubts that you are also the "Stone Map" guy to go to. You are accepted as being very knowledgeable on the subject by, just about everyone, including me. Problem is, that has never seemed to be enough for you.

There was no good reason for you to start hawking this proposed test, without saying what you wanted to test. It boils down, once again, to I know something you folks don't.

That's just my personal opinion as to what has taken place on this topic. Like all opinions, I could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Jim Hatt]

Joe,

You can fwd your private email to anyone you care to. All I am telling you is that no matter what it may appear to be... I have no recollection of ever sending you any photos of any kind, and can't imagine any circumstances, under which I would ever have been compelled to do so.

My reputation for my time invested in researching the history of the stone maps, and working with them in the field is well known, and documented. AND... highly respected in some circles. If that bothers you, I can't see how it would be considered anything but a personal problem. Which could explain your attitude about a number of issues.

In all walks of life... Whenever someone works long and hard to climb the ladder. There is always a sniper or two out there that would like to blow them off of it. The creation and distribution of false evidence, is an old concept that goes back to the beginning of mankind. I am not saying that you have been involved in anything like that, but from where I stand it certainly appears that you may have fallen for some of it.

I am not an easy target to take out Joe. Mainly because I keep my ducks in a pretty tight row. If you happen to see some ducks wandering around aimlessly. Do not jump to the conclusion that they are my ducks just because they are the same color as mine. There are a lot of ducks out there!

Best,

Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

Jim,

"In all walks of life... Whenever someone works long and hard to climb the ladder. There is always a sniper or two out there that would like to blow them off of it. The creation and distribution of false evidence, is an old concept that goes back to the beginning of mankind. I am not saying that you have been involved in anything like that, but from where I stand it certainly appears that you may have fallen for some of it."

I agree with much of what you just wrote. In particular I am reminded of your comment that I may have only been in the Superstitions "twice" in the last 52 years, Beyond that, you are correct about your history. It is well known and documented.

To be sure, I came to many of my conclusions about you through personal Internet contact. Beyond that, the people in the Dutch Hunting Comunity have been warning me about you since 2002, when we first started exchanging words on and off the Forum.

I don't need to jog your recollections, you remember quite well. On the other hand, it's possible that someone out there assumed your identity, personality and habits. They did a fine job, as it completely fooled people who had known you personally for many years.

I look forward to hearing how your efforts to date the Stone Maps progresses.
I don't believe they will be a secret, so you may as well be the first to post what is coming down the pike. If you get it done, I will be the first to heap praise on that achievement.

Good luck, and I mean that,

Joe

 

[BILL96]

Jim,
Wow things sure move quickly, sorry I missed your question. One of the best sources for all types of molding rubber is a www.smooth-on.com
Plaster of paris is really not very good for making large mother molds, a plaster product called FGR95
is much better, very very hard.

Bill

 

[Jim Hatt]

Thanks Bill,

I will look into both of them.

Best,

Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

Jim,

"I am not an easy target to take out Joe. Mainly because I keep my ducks in a pretty tight row. If you happen to see some ducks wandering around aimlessly. Do not jump to the conclusion that they are my ducks just because they are the same color as mine. There are a lot of ducks out there!"

From the start of this particular conversation, I have stuck to the facts. It's not what you think I know that's important, it's what I know. I am a number of steps ahead of what you are announcing here about testing the heart. Fact is, I know that the results of that test is not what you are after. It's a foregone conclusion that the film will show that the tests were "inconclusive".

From an advertising position, that seem like a winning situation for the museum,
and possibly your new book. In fact, I think it's a brilliant project. If you can pull it off, you deserve a great deal of credit.

My other thought is that you may have floated it here a little too early. You may be seeing that now. At this point, silence might be the best thing you can do.

Once again, I wish you luck,

Joe

 

[Jim Hatt]

Always looking for the most negative possible answer to any situation aren't you Joe?
Some of us are much more interested in looking for the truth, rather than discussing all the possible untruths, and conspiracy theories.

Why don't we just wait to see if the test is even approved, and if so what the results are before forming conclusions, or trying to plant the idea of some kind of conspiracy into everyone's minds.?

I know that is a difficult concept for you to understand, and doesn't fit with your personal agenda, but you might consider giving it a try just this one time.

If you really believe it's all just hype to get advertising for the museum, or a book (that I do not foresee coming out any time within the next 10 years or so) I think you are overlooking the fact that the break in the heart stone, is clearly visible, in the photo of the maps sitting on the front bumper of the car, taken on the day, and possibly within the hour that Tumlinson found the maps.

To me... That strongly suggests that that break, and repair, could have been done by the previous owners, or even the creators of the maps.

Still to be considered, is the idea that the original repair could have failed, and the heart was repaired again by Tumlinson, Mitchell or someone else, using a modern glue, but even if that should prove to be the case. There IS still the possibility that some of the original substance from the original repair may still remain deep within the break.

And... That it could be identified, and possibly dated to a certain time period.

Interesting possibility isn't it? Kinda lets a lot of the hot air out of your conspiracy theory too, doesn't it?

Best,

Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

Jim,

Yes it does.

Seems to me you could have just given us the facts from day one. Did I mention a conspiricy?

I did mentioned the early glue theory to Roy last night. On the other hand, I am probably all wrong about many aspects of this little soap opera. Happens to me more and more often.

On the other hand......You do manage to bring out the worst in me.

At least we did manage to stay on topic......kinda.

Take care,

joe

 

[Jim Hatt]

Did I mention a conspiricy?

It sure sounded like a "Conspiracy Theory" to me when you suggested, that I may be in cahoots with the museum for some free advertising, and a chance to promote a new book, (which is no where even close to being finished yet).

Others may see it differently.

Agreed... I could have just dumped it all out there in my first post. But just look at all the fun I would have missed bringing out the worst in in you!

Actually that last line is intended to be a joke. Nothing wrong with someone testing the temperature, and depth of the water, before they jump all the way in.

Best,

Jim

 

[Cubfan64]

That's a pretty interesting idea and one I hadn't thought of. Reminds me of how often something can be so obviously in plain sight and yet is easily missed.

It may prove to be totally inconclusive, but it's certainly outside of the box thinking and at least has a chance to identify something of value.

Looking forward to hearing whether it progresses.

 

[cactusjumper]

Jim,

In this case, it would have to be a "conspiracy" of one. Doubt the museum would get involved in such an affair with you, but I could be wrong.

As I said, I kind of admired that angle, if it's true. Good marketing all the way around. I can see where your book would not be a big factor for you right now.

Are you considering making more "artifacts"?

I probably need to put a little distance between myself and whatever is going on with Jim Hatt. It's just that I love a mystery/puzzle.

Take care,

Joe

 

[BILL96]

Just a thought but I compared the photo of the stones on the bumper with the apparant crack in the heart with later photos of the heart and unless I am mistaken later photos of the heart have the crack on the other side, maybe the heart is simply "turned over" in the original photo on the bumper but the crack is not in the same as in later photos, it's probably just turned over.

Bill

 

[Jim Hatt]

Are you considering making more "artifacts"?

I don't know if you will be able to follow this or not Joe, but "Artifacts" cannot be manufactured at will. Look up the definition sometime.


Assuming you are sloppily referring to stone map reproductions, the answer is no. Haven't made any in 8 years, do not have any left to sell, and have no intentions of ever making any more at this time. I was just interested in the information about the silicone rubber Bill was talking about, in case I ever did decide to make more at some time in the future.

So you can drop that idea from your "Conspiracy Theory" too!

It is really not gentlemanly for someone sitting there with egg all over his face, to be tossing cheap insults at someone else.
But nobody has ever accused you of being gentlemanly anyway have they?

Best,

Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

Jim,

[I don't know if you will be able to follow this or not Joe, but "Artifacts" cannot be manufactured.]

Maybe that's why I typed it like this: "artifacts".

"It is really not gentlemanly for someone sitting there with egg all over his face, to be tossing cheap insults at someone else.
But nobody has ever accused you of being gentlemanly anyway have they?"

Why yes, they have.

On the other hand, I have never been accused of being "cheap".

I have often ended up with egg on my face. It's part of being human.....ya know? Sorry, that was foolish of me.

Which part was the egg? Was that where I knew what your "can't tell you" test was all about?

Like I said, good luck,

Joe