The Peralta Stones

[gollum]

Mike,

"Neither can I find a direct relation to any specific family or person."

While admittedly circumstantial, this is one hell of a coincidence:

[Perhaps one of Chuck Aylor's favorite quotes best describes the Aylors and their quest for gold in the Superstition Mountains:

"You would play upon me; you would seem to know my stops; you would pluck out the heart of my mystery; you would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass."]

Page 126 from Tom Kollenborn's "Superstition Mountain: A Ride Through Time".

As "evidence" for the Stone Maps goes, I believe this is as close as it gets.

Take care,

Joe

So,

Is it your or TK's belief that Chuck Aylor was the perpetrator of the Stone Maps?

Mike

 

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[cactusjumper]

Mike,

It's my belief that he was involved, but I won't speak for Tom. When you add the profile of the priest and the profile of Chuck Aylor to the mix, you might come up with your own answer. Way too many coincidences for me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evenng SH You posted -->
There are a few nay sayers that do seem to devote an inordinate amount of time,usually in a very repetitious manner,to their interest in proving that the stones were faked as part of a conspiracy to commit some kind of fraud.Often these same folks have made claims of discovery themselves which,partly out of common respect for a fellow enthusiast,most of us have accepted despite a shortage of descriptive or photographic evidence.They would gladly share this evidence,but.....excuse,excuse etc.Yet they become experts on the topic of others' treasure hunts,presenting mainly the opinions of others to support their case.I really wonder if they shouldn't find another hobby.

**************

For 400 years the specialists and experts failed to find Tayopa, it took a bit of thinking outside of the normal and disregarding the previous thinking to solve it. This may well be the future for the stones. So far the 'experts' have failed to solve their story in over 20 + years, time to change the line of thought.. Incidentally what defines an expert on the stones?? Their history of discovery?? As a matter of fact that area is fascinating for being devoid of any useful land marks for locating them. I would hate to try to send someone say from Spain to recover them.
*********

SH, up at Tayopa they simply scraped and removed the soil on a 60* slope down to bed rock in a circle of about 200 ft in dia. x a 25 ft wide ring. Even today with plant growth almost covering it, it is still plainly visible as you enter the complex from the East.

*********

On the triangle in front of the caves, frankly it looks like a fenced pasture / corral for the animals of whoever was living in the caves.

Quien sabe?

Don Jose de La Manacha

 

[somehiker]

The triangle is very sharply defined.I didn't bother to measure ,with it being on a very steep slope,but it looked to have equal sides.
The density of the cholla,which gives it the lighter colour,would make further investigation very uncomfortable.There is few cholla outside of the border.No fencing of any kind anywhere in the area.Only two or three horses or mules could be sheltered within the cave.About twenty feet back,the ceiling height drops to about three feet or even less.
As for the suggestions that the creators of all of the stones may have been Franciscan?
Why?...Would they have had a motive for doing so?
Were they being accused of something that could have led to their arrest and expulsion as well?
Did the Franciscans use the heart anywhere as a symbol of their faith?
The Jesuits did,in books and on "trade rings".
Were they and the Jesuits adversaries...in the southwest?
Did Chuck Aylor create the heart at Twin Buttes?Did DeGrazia,the Don's or the Franciscans?
Not to mention any of the things in the photographs that I have shared.
If I should start using a quote that I feel applies to my own search,will that become "evidence" that I was in cahoots with any of these folks? If I do,I will just have to make sure that it does not include hearts or horses or crosses or trails or circles or or or.

Regards:SH.

 

[Cubfan64]

I didn't think the horse/priest stone was the one under the 2 stones photographed for the same reason you stated Joe that the edges are too sharp and the overall size didn't appear to be right either, but thought I'd ask here in case someone had the answer. I didn't realize the same question had been asked well before I got interested in all of this - I should have spent more time searching, but admittedly I just am not THAT interested in the Stone Maps.

Based on the photograph, I find myself forced to believe that the horse/priest stone was NOT found at the same time as the trail stones. I just can't find a good reason to believe they wouldn't have been included in the photograph.

That said, I'm getting confused now as to when each stone was claimed to be found? I doubt we'll get everyone to agree here, but is there any way to get some timing as to when the stones were CLAIMED to be found

I'm talking about all the stones we know of - including the heart inserts (2).

Anybody up for the challenge? Keep in mind, I'm not looking necessary for the TRUTH of when they were each found or where - I just want to know what the general concensus is for when they were each CLAIMED to have been found.

Thanks

 

[gollum]

I didn't think the horse/priest stone was the one under the 2 stones photographed for the same reason you stated Joe that the edges are too sharp and the overall size didn't appear to be right either, but thought I'd ask here in case someone had the answer. I didn't realize the same question had been asked well before I got interested in all of this - I should have spent more time searching, but admittedly I just am not THAT interested in the Stone Maps.

Based on the photograph, I find myself forced to believe that the horse/priest stone was NOT found at the same time as the trail stones. I just can't find a good reason to believe they wouldn't have been included in the photograph.

That said, I'm getting confused now as to when each stone was claimed to be found? I doubt we'll get everyone to agree here, but is there any way to get some timing as to when the stones were CLAIMED to be found

I'm talking about all the stones we know of - including the heart inserts (2).

Anybody up for the challenge? Keep in mind, I'm not looking necessary for the TRUTH of when they were each found or where - I just want to know what the general concensus is for when they were each CLAIMED to have been found.

Thanks

Travis Tumlinson stated that he tripped over the "DON" Stone, dug it up and took it to his wife. He then took a shovel out of the trunk, went to the same spot and dug up the other three. That is the version I have seen in the most trusted places.

There are other versions:

1. Horse/Priest Stone found first. Other stones found a year or two later.

2. Stones found in 1952 or 1953

3. Found the Don Stone and the rest were found a year later.

It is my belief that the reason the two map stones were photographed as such with out the Horse/Priest is because with the maps stacked on top of each other there was no place for any others. Who knows how many other pictures are possibly out there? Maybe he gave them to his brother who lost them. Maybe they are still in the possession of the family. Remember, they were on vacation at the time. Chances are they had film for their camera.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I don't know if you knew the man or not, but do you know what kind of a guy Charlie Miller was? Honest guy? BS'er?

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

You need a copy of the original book explaining the chronology of diging up the maps. I'm at work, but will quote the sequence of events when I get home, assuming no one else provides it first. Jim seems to be on here a lot lately, so he probably has the information at hand.

As I recall, they did not find all of the maps the same day. Could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Jim,

Don't know if you have already done it, but you might want to post the announcement for the Stone Maps viewing date on your Forum. I imagine there are a lot of your members who might be interested.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Cubfan64]

Mike - you said...

It is my belief that the reason the two map stones were photographed as such with out the Horse/Priest is because with the maps stacked on top of each other there was no place for any others. Who knows how many other pictures are possibly out there? Maybe he gave them to his brother who lost them. Maybe they are still in the possession of the family. Remember, they were on vacation at the time. Chances are they had film for their camera.

Nobody will ever know for certain, so we're all just speculating, but if I place myself in the shoes of Tumlinson who found the stones, I would have taken a photograph of all of them together - it doesn't seem as though it would have taken much effort to place the priest/horse stone next to the 2 we see on the same bumper and take a couple extra steps back.

You're absolutely correct that we don't know how many photos are out there, or how many they actually took, or heck for that matter if perhaps some of them didn't develop well. It just bugs me a little to see a photograph obviously meant to display the finds with one not there. I'd almost rather just see one stone in that old photo - at least that way in my mind I could imagine the photographer wanting to take individual photos of each stone which to me would more strongly imply that there are definitely photos missing.

I guess in the end it's all neither here nor there, but I do believe that photograph is a circumstantial bit of evidence that may indicate that the Stone/Horse stone was fabricated later - I know I've heard that rumor going around since first hearing about the stone maps. Again, I'm not saying that's what happened because I have no clue, but although this photo proves nothing, it certainly brings that question to mind.

 

[Cubfan64]

Paul,

You need a copy of the original book explaining the chronology of diging up the maps. I'm at work, but will quote the sequence of events when I get home, assuming no one else provides it first. Jim seems to be on here a lot lately, so he probably has the information at hand.

As I recall, they did not find all of the maps the same day. Could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

Heck Joe - I may even have the book in my ever growing pile. Which one is it? By the way, that little voice in my head is giving me advice to stay out of the Stone Map discussions and not even "go there" in starting to educate myself at least a little on them. I'm lousy at taking advice :P

 

[gollum]

Paul,

You need a copy of the original book explaining the chronology of diging up the maps. I'm at work, but will quote the sequence of events when I get home, assuming no one else provides it first. Jim seems to be on here a lot lately, so he probably has the information at hand.

As I recall, they did not find all of the maps the same day. Could be wrong.

Take care,

Joe

Heck Joe - I may even have the book in my ever growing pile. Which one is it? By the way, that little voice in my head is giving me advice to stay out of the Stone Map discussions and not even "go there" in starting to educate myself at least a little on them. I'm lousy at taking advice :P

HAHAHA Me Too!

It all started for me when someone asked me a question about the Stone Maps several years ago. I don't even remember now what the question was, but it was seemingly a simple one. I went to look up the answer, and found several different versions. I HATE THAT! I figured a little more in depth poking should quickly reveal what I was looking for.

Well, needless to say............several years of frustrated banging my head on my keyboard later, I have found some very interesting things.

A lot of the misinformation that is out there is intentional. When someone knowledgeable mentions they are looking in a certain area, most sheeple start beating that area to death.

I have come across a couple of people who publicly state they think the stones are fakes, but have been working hard at them for many years.

I have also come across some who seem knowledgeable, but have no clue.

When it comes to the Stone Maps, there are a few bits and pieces of their known history that are fact beyond doubt. They are little known facts, but absolute facts nonetheless. If you know these, and run across someone who claims great knowledge, you can find out pretty quick if they are full of it. I keep those questions close to my chest, but they are out there for anyone to find.

I don't know if they are real or fakes. I can only go by what I have found out, and the actions of all the previous known owners.

Joe,

I completely agree that the coincidence of the similarity between the "Priest" and Chuck Aylor's profiles being odd, but there just happens to be that place in the mountains that has the same profile.........hhhhmmmmmm. Are you also saying that Chuck Aylor cut that in the mountains to look like himself?

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

As I have also said many times before;

I don't know that I would sell the ranch to go looking for either the DLM or a solution to the Stone Maps. The old timers have destroyed most of the monuments and markers in the mountains over the years. I can't imagine how in God's Name you could make everything fit together.

There is also so much BS mixed in with what little truth there is, it is difficult to know which is which. Especially since the BS has been around almost since the time of old Jacob Waltz.

I guess that's why the Dutchman's Mine is still lost and why nobody has gotten rich off the Stone maps yet (unless they are fakes).

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Don't believe I am saying any such thing.

There is a great difference between a man-made profile and a nature-made profile. If you have enough rocks, you can find anything you can dream up, in the mountains. I think that's something most folks have encountered, if they had an image in mind......or even if they didn't. I don't equate the two at all.

You have the heart connection, the profile, Palamino Mt. with the eye of the horse, and you have Aylor's Caballo Camp located smack dab in my version of the Stone Map Trail.

Taken one at a time, who cares? Taken as a whole, it's turning into the weight of the evidence. There may be more.

As far as I'm concerned it beats any other kind of evidence for who created the Stone Maps. If someone has something better, I'm more than willing to hear it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

.... There is also so much BS mixed in with what little truth there is, it is difficult to know which is which. Especially since the BS has been around almost since the time of old Jacob Waltz)....

Best-Mike

Quite true. Many obsessed searchers have gone to their graves not realizing that their dearest beliefs were someone else's disinformation.

 

[gollum]

The only thing I have an issue with is WHY? WHY go to all that trouble to fake not only the four stones commonly known, but the Latin Heart. I always throw that in, because the person I asked you about was the person that reportedly found then destroyed it. He stated he found it near where the other stones were found. If you would prefer not to answer my question publicly, please PM me.

If it was to keep tourists interested in the Supers, then okay, I can understand that.

I still have another BIG problem with the Chuck Aylor/Ted De Grazia Motif:

Bob Corbin and the FBI. If it was the late 1960s and the FBI had the Stone Maps, then it would have to have been in conjunction with the lawsuit over ownership of the stones between Boyd and Ruth Cochrane and Mitchell/Kriewald/MOEL. Period. End of story. No other alternative. The result of that lawsuit was a court order for the Stone Maps to be donated to a non-profit organization. That version has been corroborated by three different sources so far.

If the FBI had possession of the stones, it was only at the behest of the State of Arizona, and it could have only been for the FBI to have them tested for age somehow. If they were just being held pending the outcome of the lawsuit, then they would have been held by the State Attorney's Office in an evidence locker, not the FBI. The second thing (besides reasonable assumption) that corroborates the FBI having the stones tested is the fact that the agent told Corbin that it was the opinion of the FBI that the stones were "at least 100 years old".

Now, if Bob Corbin was a liar or drug addict, I may be willing to accept the possibility that this was not true. From everybody that I have spoken to regarding his character, neither is the case. Since that is so, then you have to believe his story. You also SHOULD believe that the FBI had the stones tested (in some manner), and the result of that testing was that the Stone Maps were engraved in "at least" (latest date) the 1860s. That pretty much shoots down any notion that the Stone Maps were made in the 1940s.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I would trust Bob Corbin with my checkbook or, maybe, even my dogs. His recollection of what took place with the FBI Agent may be as precise as he has repeated it to me......more than once. One word that is "misremembered" could change the entire perception of what was said.

For instance, what if the agent said "we" believe it's at least 100 years old. That could be himself and two friends in another office. It seems to me, that the real question is if the FBI ever had "possession" of the stones for examination......in any of their facilities. The second question would be, did they have the knowledge to date the Stone Maps? That would require the kind of expertise that the folks in Tucson had.

The reasons for them examining the maps has been debunked some time ago. The records seem clear that MOEL's problem was late or not filing with the SEC. That had nothing to do with the Stone Maps. If they were being investigated for suspicion of fraud, involving the sale of shares in the company, using the Stone Maps as a hook, where are those records?

I looked into this and could only find the filing problem. Obviously, I could have just not looked far enough. These kinds of things leave copious paper trails. Show us a single document that backs up any of your claims from the "legal" side of this history.

I believe most of this comes from rumors that morphed into "Hell I Was There" speculation. As our friend Roy often says......kinda, Show us the ore/money/documents. These are not some kind of documents from the Spanish era that could have been sequestered away in Spain, Mexico City, or eaten by someone's dog, but official U.S. court documents.

Just my personal opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

..... If it was the late 1960s and the FBI had the Stone Maps, then it would have to have been in conjunction with the lawsuit over ownership of the stones between Boyd and Ruth Cochrane and Mitchell/Kriewald/MOEL. Period. End of story. No other alternative. The result of that lawsuit was a court order for the Stone Maps to be donated to a non-profit organization. That version has been corroborated by three different sources so far.

If the FBI had possession of the stones, it was only at the behest of the State of Arizona, and it could have only been for the FBI to have them tested for age somehow. If they were just being held pending the outcome of the lawsuit, then they would have been held by the State Attorney's Office in an evidence locker, not the FBI. The second thing (besides reasonable assumption) that corroborates the FBI having the stones tested is the fact that the agent told Corbin that it was the opinion of the FBI that the stones were "at least 100 years old". ......

Best-Mike

If the lawsuit was to determine ownership of the stones, why did their age matter? Their reported discovery predated the Arizona Antiquities Act (1960 as I recall?), and the location of their discovery exempted them from the US Antiquities Act of 1906, so their true age seems to be a moot point. If the FBI was holding the stones (for whatever reason seems unclear), then their opinion of age sounds more like an off-the-hip comment rather than a true scientific opinion. I wouldn't hang my hat on the FBI comment without a copy of their examination.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

It would seem that you need to reread your own conclusions:

http://1oro1.com/Hidden Caches/stonemaps.html

I believe they, pretty much, agree with what I have been posting.

Here are some of your more pertinate comments:

[At some point in time in the 1960's, Mitchell met a California Geologist from CSULA (Cal State University Los Angeles) named Martin L. Stout, and asked him to try and authenticate or age the stones. Stout went to an old colleague of his at Redlands University in Redlands, Ca. The man's name was Steve Dana. Professor Dana was supposed to have dated the Stone Maps to the mid 1800s. The only problem with this is that there is no written evidence (that I have found), and both Professors Stout and Dana have passed on. I am waiting on a response from Professor Dana's Wife as to her having any knowledge of his assessment of the Stone Maps.

Next comes a very contentious phase of the Stone Maps modern history; The SEC Trial. Many versions of the story say that MOEL was using the Stone Maps to generate Stock sales, so the Feds wanted to make sure they were authentic. They confiscated the stones from MOEL and had them tested. I used to believe this as well, but have evidence that shows this not to be the case.

Here is the truth about the SEC Case against MOEL Inc:

MOEL was indeed selling stock in the company. They had failed to register one form that would allow them to legally sell stock. This trial was to make certain that no fraud had been committed and to rectify the situation. Here is the SEC Litigation Release that details the charges: .........

As anyone can plainly see, there is no mention of the Stone Maps anywhere in the litigation release. They played absolutely no part in the SEC Investigation.

Below are the results of the SEC Trial. As you can also see, only Clarence and Grace Mitchell were enjoined (stopped) from selling stock in the company.]

I have trusted your research in this matter, especially since most of them agreed with mine, plus you have the copies of the documents.

I agree with almost every word in your own conclusions concerning MOEL and the Stone Maps, but could find nothing showing they were forced to sell the stones by a court order. Can you tell us your source for that information?

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

You wrote:

.......but could find nothing showing they were forced to sell the stones by a court order. Can you tell us your source for that information?

I have posted that information a few different times. It came from Ray Grant. A curator at the Az Mining & Minerals Museum. He told me that while nobody is still alive at the Museum from the time when the Stone Maps were donated, there are some papers and the "in house" story that goes with them, though not in writing.

Our conclusions are far from being similar. While I do admit where there are gaps in what can be proven beyond doubt, I look at every previous owners' actions, and what I have found through research and contacts, and have come to the conclusion (unless I find something solid to the contrary in the future) that they are authentic Treasure Maps.

While I have my conclusions and beliefs, I am not so tied into them that I will ignore evidence to the contrary. Granted, it would take evidence that was beyond reproach to sway me THAT much! HAHAHA

Best-Mike