The Peralta Stones

[somehiker]

Hey SH,

Wouldn't the turn out where Tumlinson parked be where I marked?

Best-Mike

I would think so,Mike.
Added some of the other,approximate but pretty close as to, locations.

Nice to see a few original ideas being posted.
One thing,regarding the worn side of the "DON" stone.
Such a stone,hidden in plain sight by it's double duty as a threshold stone, would show such wear.
Another,at an entryway meant for women only,would have "DONA" carved upon it.
But that one hasn't turned up yet.If such a stone were possible.
The "cross" stone may have been likewise "hidden" over a door at one time.The bevel around that side makes me wonder.
These are just a few thoughts that I have had recently.

Regards:SH.

 

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[Springfield]

The only thing I have an issue with is WHY? WHY go to all that trouble to fake not only the four stones commonly known, but the Latin Heart. I always throw that in, because the person I asked you about was the person that reportedly found then destroyed it. He stated he found it near where the other stones were found. If you would prefer not to answer my question publicly, please PM me.

If it was to keep tourists interested in the Supers, then okay, I can understand that. ....

Best-Mike

There are many possibilities and combinations of possibilities regarding the motivation behind faking alleged historical artifacts. As you've mentioned, in the case of the Peralta Stones/Latin Heart (some or all of them), their 'discovery' would focus attention on the Lost Dutchman Mine legend and promote the Superstition Mountains/Apache Junction area. This would certainly be low-down behavior, but would only affect a small number of TH-types while benefiting the tourist industry to some limited extent. A few more heads on pillows and butts in restaurant booths. A few 'experts' become well known, at least to the small audience that we belong to. A few more books sold.

These things happen, but the collateral damage is not nearly as serious as, say, trying to validate an entire belief system based on the faking of documents and artifacts. This is a tactic the LDS church or their agents have earned particularly notorious reputations for in order to further their cause. Many thousands of people are vulnerable in cases such as this, and long-term damage can occur for the duped. Any number of older religious artifacts from around the world are also suspect, the Shroud of Turin being in the news lately. I guess you'd say the motivation here is mind control.

Other reasons for artifact hoaxing: personal monetary gain, personal attention or just plain mischievous humor for the perpetrator.

In the case of the Peralta stones, it's my belief that the carvings are 'authentic' and relate to something of great value. I suspect the truth behind the mystery is entirely different than the lore surrounding them and that the secret is camoflaged, 'an enigma within an enigma', as they say. Of all the dead ends thoroughly researched by many on this subject, the one guy who has been somewhat left behind, IMHO, is Pegleg Tumlinson. He seems like the joker in the deck - it seems to me we ought to know a lot more about him than we do.

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

I just received a call from Phil Reinhardt asking me to make the following announcement for the museum:

The Superstition Mountain Museum will have the Peralta Stone Maps on display, outside the building and out of the cases, on June 27th. 8 AM to 10 AM. They will be available to be photographed for those
2-Hours.

There is a $20 fee, and the number of photographers will be restricted to 20 people. It's requested that you RSVP. In the event that they don't get 20 RSVP's, the balance of the 20 will be made up of first come first serve.

4087 N. Apache Trail
Apache Junction, AZ 85119
(480) 983-4888

I would suggest that everyone interested call the museum and confirm the information I have posted.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Just received this clarification from Greg Davis, which is why I suggested anyone interested in going to the museum confirm the information I passed along:
_____________________________________________

"Hello Joe: I have a correction to make to Phil's statement to you regarding the Stone Map Photo Section at the Superstition Mountain Museum. There is no fee for $20.00. It's a donation and it's for $40.00 per person. We will extend the time after the 10A.M. cut off if there are still photographers there that need to finish their pictures, but no later than 11A.M.. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis"
______________________________________________

Hope they have a good turnout, as the Museum deserves everyone's support.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

I agree with:

"The only problem with this is that there is no written evidence (that I have found), and both Professors Stout and Dana have passed on."

"Next comes a very contentious phase of the Stone Maps modern history; The SEC Trial. Many versions of the story say that MOEL was using the Stone Maps to generate Stock sales, so the Feds wanted to make sure they were authentic. They confiscated the stones from MOEL and had them tested. I used to believe this as well, but have evidence that shows this not to be the case."

"MOEL was indeed selling stock in the company. They had failed to register one form that would allow them to legally sell stock."

"As anyone can plainly see, there is no mention of the Stone Maps anywhere in the litigation release. They played absolutely no part in the SEC Investigation."

"As you can also see, only Clarence and Grace Mitchell were enjoined (stopped) from selling stock in the company.]" Eventually the third party was also stopped from selling stock.

It seems to me that we are, pretty much, on the same page concerning MOEL and the Stone Maps.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Goodyguy]

Another view of the maps displayed on the bumper, that puts there size into perspective.
Those babies were not meant to be carried on your person.


The size of the two stones vary across sources: between 18"x12"x2" and 22"x17"x3".

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

The chronology of the finding of the Stone Maps is as follows:

The first stone found was the Horse/Priest stone. They then drove to the nearest service station to wash it off. They left Arizona and continued on to Texas. After his visit and a great deal of research and purchasing of books about the Superstition Mountains, they headed back home, by way of the route that took him back to the location of the find.

He walked back and forth over the area where he found the first stone for two days. He found a ledge projecting up from the desert floor, and discovered that it had carvings of signs and symbols. He walked by a large Saguaro and saw that it had a hole drilled completely through it.
Looking through it, he was surprised to see that it pointed directly to the hole he had dug to get the first stone out of the ground. It was around a quarter of a mile away.

He went back and copied the signs and symbols he had seen on the ledge. They headed for home. Many months went by until his next vacation came. They went back to the location site. He spent the first day trying to use the directions on the Priest/Horse map to find.....something. He didn't know what.

He figured it out during the night and found the two trail maps the next day. The following day he went back to the hole he had dug the trail maps out of and dug deeper. He found the heart stone. They left for home. They don't mention anyone's name from the area or showing it to anyone in Arizona.

More months passed and "Jack" eventually showed the stones to his friend, Travis Marlowe. Travis said: "I would like to work with you on this." "No," Jack said, "I want to work alone, at least for awhile, but if I ever change my mind, you will be the one that I choose to work with me, or, I will give you the treasure maps." At that time Travis was given pictures of the maps. Around a year later his friend died and "Jack's" wife gave the Stone Maps to Marlowe.

That is how Travis Marlowe learned of and eventually acquired the Stone Maps, and how he came to write "Superstition Treasures". Three copies of the book can be found here:

http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/Sea...7&sts=t&tn="superstition+treasures"&x=93&y=11

That's the chronology of the finds according to the Marlowe book. I have three copies myself, two pretty rough and one "fine".

That's the best I can do. Don't think I made any mistakes.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HIO: that picture puts the question "were they set one on top of the other" to rest. They were too narrow to place between the car frame and the bumper, so he placed a section of a wooden plank on top of the bumper for base to place the stones upon.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

This is from my 8 X 10 copy of the original picture used for Dr. Glover's book. As you can see, it's before the picture was "cleaned up" for publication:

I looked into the dimensions of the headlight and found that the stones in the picture are around eighteen inch's across......as I recall. I have the information around here, somewhere.

Hope this information helps everyone.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

For those who are beginning to think they are getting a handle on the history of the Stone Maps, I will now throw a sizeable monkey wrench into the mix. Marlowe's book was published in 1965. Thirty-five years later, along comes Dr. Thomas Glover and includes 12 pages in his book, "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz......", devoted exclusively to the Stone Maps.

The story that he tells, will have your head spinning. It is significantly different than that told by Travis Marlowe. In fact, he does not even mention Marlowe or his book/pamphlet. Is the Marlowe account such a known work of fiction that it was not worth mentioning? It seems that Dr. Glover's book includes every questionable story or claim ever told about the Stone Maps, but not a whisper about Travis Marlowe.

Just to add a little more to the story, in case there are some folks out there who don't know, Marlowe was actually Clarence O. Mitchell.

To be sure, Dr. Glover made some serious mistakes about the Stone Maps. I will only point out one: "Then he went and retrieved a shovel from his truck, came back and really started digging, finding three other stones-the Priest Stone, the Horse Stone and the small heart Stone".

To be fair, sources are probably the key to the mistakes. An author is only as good as his sources, and it becomes obvious from the above quote that Thomas had not seen the Stone Maps or read the Marlowe/Mitchell pamphlet. Thomas is a meticulous researcher and must have trusted the people who were giving him this information.

Can we assume that Clarence Mitchell was pretty close to the original story? I do.

Perhaps that's all I have to give you. I know that most of you know everything that I have posted, but it's obvious to me that some do not.

Good hunting,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

Somehiker wrote

As for the suggestions that the creators of all of the stones may have been Franciscan?
Why?...Would they have had a motive for doing so?
Were they being accused of something that could have led to their arrest and expulsion as well?
Did the Franciscans use the heart anywhere as a symbol of their faith?
The Jesuits did,in books and on "trade rings".
Were they and the Jesuits adversaries...in the southwest?
Did Chuck Aylor create the heart at Twin Buttes?Did DeGrazia,the Don's or the Franciscans?
Not to mention any of the things in the photographs that I have shared.
If I should start using a quote that I feel applies to my own search,will that become "evidence" that I was in cahoots with any of these folks? If I do,I will just have to make sure that it does not include hearts or horses or crosses or trails or circles or or or.

Yes the Jesuits and Franciscans were adversarial to some degree in the southwest, through much of their history. The Franciscans were the first to plant missions within Arizona, starting with Awatobi in 1629 and adding four more within a couple of years. They remained until the Pueblo revolt in 1680, which resulted in 21 of 33 Franciscan padres among the dead. The Jesuits accused the Franciscans of "poaching" (of souls) in "their" assigned territory, and technically this was correct. The Franciscans arrived in southern AZ by 1768 after the Jesuits expulsion, and took over (literally) the former Jesuit missions, building most of the missions we see today in that region. The Franciscan missions were secularized 1827- 1834 by order of the Mexican govt, and the friars were replaced by secular clergy largely by 1830. So yes, there was reason for them to hide treasures of the Church from the grasping hands of the Mexican government before they were sent out and replaced by secular clergy - secular meaning governmental, not the same as the priests who formerly ran the missions for they answered to the government FIRST. It is likely that they had the assistance of Amerindians in this protecting of Church property too - think of how you would react, if the Feds announced that they were going to take over YOUR church and all its assets, would you not think of perhaps helping to prevent those assets from vanishing into govt coffers?

The symbols on the Peralta stones you refer to, the heart, the cross, the dagger, and used by Catholics in many Orders not just the Jesuits. I can't see anything on the Peralta stones that definitely makes them Jesuit and rules out Franciscans, which doesn't PROVE that Franciscans made them either, just means they can't be ruled out. That "horse of Santa Fe" has been linked to Franciscans as a saying, which does sort of point to them. Horses, as well as several other livestock are associated with St Francis, founder of the Order. The Franciscans being much closer in the timeline to the 1847, <being present in AZ til 1827-30> than the Jesuits who left circa 1767 also does suggest them as somewhat more likely than the Society of Jesus.

I don't have the answers to the rest of your questions.

Gollum wrote

Now, if Bob Corbin was a liar

Why do you keep going there? Who is saying that Corbin lied? Are you saying that if the overheard statement was wrong, that means Corbin MUST have lied, been on drugs or was drunk? Can not an honest man, simply repeat what he has heard, which may or may not have been a correct statement? He could be repeating it verbatim, and the statement still be wrong, which does not make Corbin a liar, drug addict or alcoholic for that matter. You tend to see a lot of things in black and white, don't you amigo? You must also know that if this were a court case (it is not) then Corbin's recollection is not even admissible as evidence since it is HEARSAY. I have a lot of respect for Mr Corbin and his wife, and do not suspect even a tiny bit that he is lying or misrepresenting what he overheard, just that this overheard statement is really a thin bit of ice to go a skating on. If we were on the other sides of this discussion, you would refuse to accept it on the basis that it is hearsay, I would bet.

One more thing, I am NOT locked into the idea that the stone maps MUST be fakes or modern creations, that position isn't exactly proven 100% either.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I know the circumstantial evidence for the stones being modern-day creations, as well as the opinions of the experts who put their names to their opinions, but can you tell me about the evidence that points to them being legitimate? Can anyone?

Two sides. One for them being legitimate, one against. Seems like a logical exercise.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Please read my previous post regarding the FBI, Bob Corbin, Az Courts, and the Mining Museum. It is VERY logical to assume that if the FBI had the stones for examination, and concluded that they were "at least 100 years old", the stones would have fallen under the Antiquities Act. That seems like a good reason for the court to have ordered MOEL and the Cochranes to donate the stones rather than assign ownership through the lawsuit.

I am already pursuing that line with the FBI right now. As always, I'll let you know what I find out.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I know the circumstantial evidence for the stones being modern-day creations, as well as the opinions of the experts who put their names to their opinions, but can you tell me about the evidence that points to them being legitimate? Can anyone?

Two sides. One for them being legitimate, one against. Seems like a logical exercise.

Take care,

Joe

I am sure that others here can present the case much better than I, but we have covered some such as the statement heard by Corbin, the fact that they can be matched with landmarks (though this is true with many treasure maps) plus I think we can safely say that Tumlinson certainly believed them to be genuine (never heard of anyone who spent time out searching with maps they knew to be fakes) and the fact that the types of stone they are made of, can be found within 'ye olde Superstitions' at least says they were not made in NY state and hauled to AZ to pull a prank, though the origin of the stone may not be too important either way. I don't have anything you DON'T already have, that helps prove them to be genuine. Whoops - sorry, I see that our amigo Gollum has already addressed this question.

I was just browsing the net for symbols used by the Franciscans, not that I am trying to say they MUST be the makers but just for an example, the symbol for St Francis,

<HOPE this is not a copyright infringment, if so then I claim Fair Use for we ARE discussing the Franciscans and the symbols predate copyright law>
...in this very symbol we see the horse.

Maybe I will go off on a tangent with this idea, just for the heck of it. The Franciscans seem to get little notice from our treasure hunting community, or at least the AZ-focused community and this may not be justified. They certainly had a hand in the history and shaping of Arizona, certainly longer-lasting if far less famous.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

Dang it, PS - it has been a long and rather tough day (poor excuse, I know, but won't say the real reason - senility creepin' in on me) I forgot to say, about the HORSE - we can definitely link the horse as a symbol with St Francis and the Franciscan Order, but can anyone show me where the Jesuits utilize the horse as one of their symbols? Thank you in advance, and apols for slipping!
Roy, aka "Needmore-Kaffe"


PPS - Mike, those particular errors are likely the work of the editor at the publishers, not to cast stones but this type of error most commonly occurs at that stage of the book production, regardless of how carefully the author catalogs & marks each illustration, they DO get mixed up sometimes with hilarious results. No reflection on the author, though that is how it is perceived by many readers.

 

[gollum]

For those who are beginning to think they are getting a handle on the history of the Stone Maps, I will now throw a sizeable monkey wrench into the mix. Marlowe's book was published in 1965. Thirty-five years later, along comes Dr. Thomas Glover and includes 12 pages in his book, "The Lost Dutchman Mine Of Jacob Waltz......", devoted exclusively to the Stone Maps.

The story that he tells, will have your head spinning. It is significantly different than that told by Travis Marlowe. In fact, he does not even mention Marlowe or his book/pamphlet. Is the Marlowe account such a known work of fiction that it was not worth mentioning? It seems that Dr. Glover's book includes every questionable story or claim ever told about the Stone Maps, but not a whisper about Travis Marlowe.

Just to add a little more to the story, in case there are some folks out there who don't know, Marlowe was actually Clarence O. Mitchell.

To be sure, Dr. Glover made some serious mistakes about the Stone Maps. I will only point out one: "Then he went and retrieved a shovel from his truck, came back and really started digging, finding three other stones-the Priest Stone, the Horse Stone and the small heart Stone".

To be fair, sources are probably the key to the mistakes. An author is only as good as his sources, and it becomes obvious from the above quote that Thomas had not seen the Stone Maps or read the Marlowe/Mitchell pamphlet. Thomas is a meticulous researcher and must have trusted the people who were giving him this information.

Can we assume that Clarence Mitchell was pretty close to the original story? I do.

Perhaps that's all I have to give you. I know that most of you know everything that I have posted, but it's obvious to me that some do not.

Good hunting,

Joe Ribaudo

Hey Joe,

Look on page 341 at the text under the picture:

The reverse of the Priest and Horse Stones placed together for a map with the heart stone set into the heart shaped depression on the Priest Stone.

That is something very obvious that if I were writing a book about, I would want to get right. HAHAHA

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
To continue on the Franciscan tangent, recall the image of the 'witch' or 'priest'? Compare with the pose of Father Juniperro Serra, Franciscan founder of missions in Alta California,
http://imgs.sfgate.com/c/pictures/2009/03/20/dd-144_publicart_0499919677.jpg

No 'witch' hat of course, but certainly a suggestive pose which is somewhat similar to the 'witch'.
Roy

 

[Jim Hatt]

I forgot to say, about the HORSE - we can definitely link the horse as a symbol with St Francis and the Franciscan Order, but can anyone show me where the Jesuits utilize the horse as one of their symbols?

Roy,

The HORSE was the well known trademark of Fr. Kino. Just as the BELL was the trademark of Fr. Rojas.
Note that in the photos below Kino (Left) stands upon a horse and Rojas (Right) stands upon a bell.

Jim

Also... I don't think anyone has ever seen any Franciscans in the Superstition Mountains, but Jesuits have been photographed out there. Seen here taking in the view of weaver's Needle after returning from a hike. (Heads blocked out for privacy reasons)

Then there's that "pesky" story about Rojas' silver bell to call the miners to services.

http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1527

 

[Oroblanco]

Hmm, they had color photography in 1847 amigo? How can we tell those are Jesuits, and NOT Franciscans? I don't see if they have the three knots on the rope or not.

As for a Franciscan entrada into and/or through the Superstitions, Fr Garces made a trip to the Moqui and his route may have taken him through them, or at least along the Salt river. Also, quite circumstantial evidence for sure, but the Franciscan padres of the mission at Bicuner (San Pedro y San Pablo de Bicuner) were believed to have hidden a treasure of gold from the placer mines there on the Colorado river before they were massacred by the Indios, and Mexicans later came and searched for it. (Un-succesfully, sorry to report) Jesuits are not the only folks who hid treasures nor are believed to have had gold and silver mines.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Jim Hatt]

You asked about a connection between the Jesuits and a horse Roy.
I just threw in the rest for you to think about.


The photo was not taken in 1847. It was taken in 2009. Now what would a couple of Priests (Jesuit or Franciscan) have been interested in out in the Superstition Mountains? These two (by the way) were be traced to a JESUIT parish in Phoenix. (Note that there is more than one Jesuit parish in Phoenix)

Jim

 

[Oroblanco]

Well amigo, should we lend more weight to a symbol tied with a saint and founder of an Order, or a symbol tied with what was at the time a famous padre?

Before I forget this, the old Salero mine which is (of course "allegedly") first discovered by Jesuits, was later re-discovered and worked by Franciscans, which helped to decorate their missions - sort of like the $20,000 in silver that decorated San Xavier del Bac. <This is of course hotly disputed, as we are all supposed to believe that none of the padres ever went near any kind of mine.>

So what rules OUT the Franciscans?
Roy