The Peralta Stones

[Jim Hatt]

You have not acknowledged the HORSE that Kino is standing on Roy.

I'm not trying to rule out the Franciscans, I am just trying to answer your question about a connection between the Jesuits and a HORSE.

Does that answer your question or not?

Jim

 

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[Oroblanco]

I see a HORSE HEAD under Kino amigo, and no that doesn't answer my question.

 

[Jim Hatt]

re: I see a HORSE HEAD under Kino amigo, and no that doesn't answer my question.

Well Google Kino then. You will learn all about his fondness of horses, and how it became his trademark.



Jim

 

[Oroblanco]

Actually Jim I am pretty familiar with good Father Kino, and yes he is even depicted (in statue form) seated ON a horse, which is not exactly the same thing as a horse with no one on it - as it is shown on St Francis coat of arms. Then there is the timeline - the Jesuits left 1767, the Franciscans 1827, and the date (which may NOT be a date of course) of 1847 - so,... is not 1827 closer to 1847 than 1767? Both are years apart of course, but eighty years is more than twenty.

I still fail to see what rules OUT the Franciscans?
Oroblanco

 

[Jim Hatt]

I repeat AGAIN am not trying to rule out the Franciscans. I am trying to show you the connection between the Jesuits and a HORSE that you asked for.

I suppose you will eventually get around to asking me if I can put the Jesuits in the Superstitions prior to that 2009 photo, since a lot of Authors and Historians "Experts" I am sure... (might have even had letters behind their names ) claim that the Jesuits never got any farther north than Casa Grande.

From a book published by the Arizona Historical Society about the life of Fr. Jacobo Sedlemayr (A Jesuit who came right after Fr, Kino and followed in in footsteps) A map of his travels which puts him going North to the Salt River (via a route that could go right through the Superstitions) in 1744.

re: the Jesuits left 1767, the Franciscans 1827, and the date (which may NOT be a date of course) of 1847 - so,... is not 1827 closer to 1847 than 1767?


When you have studied the stone maps for about 20 more years Roy, you may begin to understand the Astronomy and Trigonometry associated with them. By then you will know, as I do, that they were updated in 1767, (The only time in recorded history when true North was 8 degrees off the Pole star) which means that they would have had to have been made prior to that date. The "1847" on the maps has nothing to do with a date.



Jim

 

[Oroblanco]

Jim what is with the attitude? Yes OK you made A connection horse-to-Jesuit, which does not rule OUT Franciscans; Not trying to be a comedian amigo and I will explain what I thought was obvious;

When we rule OUT things, what ever remains MUST BE THE TRUTH.

Hence if we can rule out Franciscans, Dominicans, etc what is left? Jesuits right? The only padres who operated in AZ are what have to be excluded, and it won't settle the case absolutely but may help.

Have a pleasant evening, must sign off.
Roy

 

[Jim Hatt]

No attitude Roy,

If I appear to be losing my patience with you, it is because I am dumping FACTS and Photos on you one after the other, and you are responding with FANTASY questions.

It's late, I am signing off too!

Jim

 

[somehiker]

It would have been more clear if RT had also explained the meaning of the symbols on the coat of arms.A link to the site where he obtained the illustration may provide some clues.
I have examined many alternate and possible theories for the origin of the stones.I also tend to look long and hard at my own ideas.I am not questioning the use of many differing symbols popular with various christian denominations.That is a subject easy to research and relatively free of controversy.It is mainly because of the maps themselves,and their probable relationship to the Superstitions area,that some of us consider the possibility of Jesuit/Franciscan involvement in the history of the area and perhaps the stones as well. For myself,that possibility represents a challenge and opportunity to sharpen both cognitive and physical skills.
To date,my own research effort has failed to find any use of a heart as a symbol of faith by the Franciscan order,or any other faith associated with the area.I have seen many of the symbols used on seals and shields by both competing orders and it was common for many who later were cannonized,to adopt an animal or other symbol such as the "Crux commissa" as their personal emblem.The Crux commissa was the symbol used frequently by the Franciscans in the same manner as the Latin heart by the Jesuits.
The "coat of arms" provided as an example features the personal emblems of several "saints",with only the "flock of singing birds" applicable to St.Francis.The horse was the personal emblem of St.Paul who,by coincidence,was also persecuted as one of the first christians.
The heart is a feature common to all of the Stone Maps,the most prominent on three of them.It also appears to symbolize the final destination.There has been some debate over the years as to the meaning of the conical "witches" hat that rests upon the head of the priest.It has been suggested that this hat may provide a clue to the origin of the maps.
It is possible that the map maker,as a man of religion, may have known the history of the Salem Witch Trials and how false accusations were at the heart of the persecutions.There even may be a connection with the history of the Jaina culture of Mexico,a people associated by a time that coincides with the fall of Teotihuacan.They had hats that were identical,as do the Navajo depicted in many of DeGrazia's works, who were closely associated with the Franciscans. Therein remain a few avenues of research to travel.
I have no doubt whatsoever that the Horse Stone incorporates,as the primary focal point seen from eye level,a natural geological formation.This formation requires very little in the way of imaginative thinking to recognize that from head to tail,it was the basis (IMHO) for the horse that was carved on the stone.Nor does it require much in the way of interpretation to locate many of the other markings that are depicted on the stone in proximity to the horse carving.It is also my opinion that the horse was chosen simply because it made an excellent visual waypoint along the route to the Heart.Only two people,outside of family and two close friends have viewed my photos of the horse,the location of the mound,as well as other photos that I cannot publish as yet.Those two are part of this community and I consider them worthy of my trust.Their reactions have provided me a partial answer to some of my own questions....

Regards:SH.

 

[somehiker]

Jim has made some valid observations supporting the greater likelyhood of the Stone Maps being of Jesuit origin.
He and I may be following different interpretations of what many of the markings on the stones apply to,in the field,but we do agree on the the Jesuit connection's that we have studied.We both have good reason to.

I once mentioned a series of programs hosted by James Burke called "Connections".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connections_(TV_series)
Individual episodes are available on U-Tube and they illustrate the type of thinking required, to find the answers to our questions.

The connections to the horse may extend well beyond the Maps themselves.Beyond even the Jesuits and the Pima in fact.
The horse on the mountain may even explain the degree of acceptance and cooperation that Fr. Kino received during his travels.It couldn't have gone unnoticed to those that created the petroglyphs that adorn so many places.Not likely that the difference in appearance between it and the native deer would have gone unnoticed either. It may also provide an answer (but in this I may be stretching a bit) to the expected arrival of men on such animals that was predicted long before the apparition actually arrived.

Regards:SH.

 

[Springfield]

.... The connections to the horse may extend well beyond the Maps themselves.Beyond even the Jesuits and the Pima in fact.....
Regards:SH.

Now you seem to be thinking outside the box. "EL COBOLLO (sic) DE SANTA FE", or, Horse of the Holy Faith, seems similar to the phrase "Horse of God", or "Bearer of Light", or "Deliverer of Truth", a concept understood by the Jesuits, the Franciscans, all other Catholic orders and also associated with a number of the great knight orders of the Crusades. The symbology between the knights and the horse is obvious. We won't delve into the direct connection between the phrase "horse of god" and the mega treasure mysteries in the south of France, but I wouldn't be shocked if there isn't some sort of link to the Peralta stones.

I think you are correct, SH - the Horse of the Holy Faith may well be a deliverer of truth in central Arizona. I would venture that the manmade horse symbology located in the hills is a key. Who, why, when, where and what remain to be seen.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Ladies gentlemen: It was posted --> It would have been more clear if RT had also explained the meaning of the symbols on the coat of arms.A link to the site where he obtained the illustration may provide some clues.
*************
Am I the RT referred to?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

some times one tends to make things too complicated. If the stones are genuine treasure maps, not hoaxes, their only purpose was to lead someone else back to something of value. They were made to hide this data from an uneducated / semi educated group.

Post operative psychoanalysis, with very limited, or non existant data of the source, can lead to many a mudhole of confused thinking.

Possible example -->When you have studied the stone maps for about 20 more years Roy, you may begin to understand the Astronomy and Trigonometry associated with them. By then you will know, as I do, that they were updated in 1767, (The only time in recorded history when true North was 8 degrees off the Pole star) which means that they would have had to have been made prior to that date.
***********
I believe that at that time the concept of longitude declination, and variation was still almost unknown as indicated by their sailing directions to return to Spain. The Astra lab was incapable of measuring altitude to any degree of accuracy. They had no time pieces, so they used the sun and moon azimuths for establishing their location. Under these conditions, I rather suspect that any correction on the stones was coincidental.

Besides, if one was to persue that train of thought, they could have simply resorted to a series of coded mathematical equations to indicate precisely where the goodies were. Except for themselves, no one on the frontier would have been able to solve them. Figures and lines are far less secure.

Incidentally, it was posted "that they were updated in 1767" , k, how do you update stone maps??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[gollum]

Good morning Ladies gentlemen: It was posted --> It would have been more clear if RT had also explained the meaning of the symbols on the coat of arms.A link to the site where he obtained the illustration may provide some clues.
*************
Am I the RT referred to?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

some times one tends to make things too complicated. If the stones are genuine treasure maps, not hoaxes, their only purpose was to lead someone else back to something of value. They were made to hide this data from an uneducated / semi educated group.

Post operative psychoanalysis, with very limited, or non existant data of the source, can lead to many a mudhole of confused thinking.

Possible example -->When you have studied the stone maps for about 20 more years Roy, you may begin to understand the Astronomy and Trigonometry associated with them. By then you will know, as I do, that they were updated in 1767, (The only time in recorded history when true North was 8 degrees off the Pole star) which means that they would have had to have been made prior to that date.
***********
I believe that at that time the concept of longitude declination, and variation was still almost unknown as indicated by their sailing directions to return to Spain. The Astra lab was incapable of measuring altitude to any degree of accuracy. They had no time pieces, so they used the sun and moon azimuths for establishing their location. Under these conditions, I rather suspect that any correction on the stones was coincidental.

Besides, if one was to persue that train of thought, they could have simply resorted to a series of coded mathematical equations to indicate precisely where the goodies were. Except for themselves, no one on the frontier would have been able to solve them. Figures and lines are far less secure.

Incidentally, it was posted "that they were updated in 1767" , k, how do you update stone maps??

Don Jose de La Mancha

Jose,

No way of knowing for certain, but the most likely way for the Stone Maps to have been updated would be by a series of secondary engravings. Since the beginning, most people who are very familiar with the Stone Maps believe that several of the engravings were added after the originals. This is due to the quality of the engravings. The older (presumed) engravings are deeper and look more professionally cut, while there are other engravings that are very shallow and not of the same quality as the others.

Look at the pictures of the Stone Maps to see what I am talking about.

Joe,

While Travis Marlowe/Clarence Mitchell was there in almost the beginning, there are a couple of things that bother me about what he says (not necessarily in only his book). Here is a link to the Time Life Website where you can read the 1964 Article on the Stone Maps. Pay careful attention to the section regarding "The Horse of Santa Fe". The article runs from page 90 - 94.

http://books.google.com/books?id=W0...A#v=onepage&q="the horse of santa fe"&f=false

Best-Mike

 

[somehiker]

Good morning Ladies gentlemen: It was posted --> It would have been more clear if RT had also explained the meaning of the symbols on the coat of arms.A link to the site where he obtained the illustration may provide some clues.
*************
Am I the RT referred to?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

some times one tends to make things too complicated. If the stones are genuine treasure maps, not hoaxes, their only purpose was to lead someone else back to something of value. They were made to hide this data from an uneducated / semi educated group.

Post operative psychoanalysis, with very limited, or non existant data of the source, can lead to many a mudhole of confused thinking.

Possible example -->When you have studied the stone maps for about 20 more years Roy, you may begin to understand the Astronomy and Trigonometry associated with them. By then you will know, as I do, that they were updated in 1767, (The only time in recorded history when true North was 8 degrees off the Pole star) which means that they would have had to have been made prior to that date.
***********
I believe that at that time the concept of longitude declination, and variation was still almost unknown as indicated by their sailing directions to return to Spain. The Astra lab was incapable of measuring altitude to any degree of accuracy. They had no time pieces, so they used the sun and moon azimuths for establishing their location. Under these conditions, I rather suspect that any correction on the stones was coincidental.

Besides, if one was to persue that train of thought, they could have simply resorted to a series of coded mathematical equations to indicate precisely where the goodies were. Except for themselves, no one on the frontier would have been able to solve them. Figures and lines are far less secure.

Incidentally, it was posted "that they were updated in 1767" , k, how do you update stone maps??

Don Jose de La Mancha

Yes ,Don Jose de La Mancha and RT are one and the same.DJ for short may be even more confusing.

If you have a look at this reference,it will address your claim regarding timepieces.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athanasius_Kircher#Technology
Other revelations can be found by researching names and topics such as Nicholas Copernicus,Galileo,Jesuit Geometers,The Jesuits and calculus(for navigation and accurate timekeeping),Heinrich Scherer(map making),Evangelista Torricelli (inventor of the barometer),Fr. Ferdinand Verbiest (astronomy).

There are many more historical references to the degree of early Jesuit influence in the arts and sciences out there.
Applied mathematics was just one area in which they excelled.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Many thanks for the link to the June 12, 1964 issue of Life. I have read it many times, as I have my own copy:

I have been up on Elephant Butte a few times, nice rocks up there, but don't believe that is the rump of the horse on the Stone Maps. That particular business end of the horse is located on the northeast corner of Black Top Mesa. Once you have figured out the maps, it is easy enough to confirm that fact.

Triangulation between the landmarks on the Stone Maps and the same landmarks on a topographic map should convince anyone, unless they are blinded by there own conclusions. Perhaps that also applies to me, but I like to think not.

See my map

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Jim,

I was sent that picture of the two priests at the trailhead some time ago. It was in a public place, so I don't see any reason for blocking out their heads. I imagine a number of people took their picture.

Is it your opinion that, because they are wearing black robes, they are Jesuits?

Did you take the picture?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Jim Hatt]

Incidentally, it was posted "that they were updated in 1767" , k, how do you update stone maps??

Don Jose de La Mancha

Good morning Don Jose,

I could "bicker" over a few of your opinions, but to spare everyone from it, I will reply to the one question you asked.

It is well accepted by stone map aficionados that there are two authors on the maps. The original one who made the nicely carved lines deeply and consistently cut into the surface. Then there are the "scratchings" that are obviously not as intricately done. Many believe (as I do) that someone came along at a later date, and added information that was not available at the time the stones were carved. Or... When the stones were passed from one owner to another, extra information was added, to aid the new owner in understanding them, and locate what they applied to.

There are mathematical formulas, and calculations all over them, that applied to conditions at the time the maps were made. (Based on magnetic compass readings) Slight variations of magnetic North at the time the additional information was scratched in, required a correction factor to make the calculations precise enough to mark the spot where one was to "dig".

I personally believe that the correction factor was determined at the time the Jesuit Caches were made, just prior to the expulsion 1767. The 8-N-P lightly scratched in near the bottom of the Priest map, is that correction factor based on the difference between true north and magnetic north at that time. That correction factor has only occurred one time in recorded history. The late spring early summer of 1767.

Other information on that map (The Priest map) show you exactly where those bearings were shot from, and where they lead you to if the correction factor is properly applied.

If I told you anymore... I would have to shoot you!

Jim

 

[Jim Hatt]

Jim,

I was sent that picture of the two priests at the trailhead some time ago. It was in a public place, so I don't see any reason for blocking out their heads. I imagine a number of people took their picture.

Is it your opinion that, because they are wearing black robes, they are Jesuits?

Did you take the picture?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,

It was late when I wrote that and I may have done a little unintended embellishing of the facts by calling them "Jesuit Priests" when I did not know that to be the case. (My apologies if I did) I cannot testify to the fact they were, or were not not Jesuit Priests, as I did not take the photo or talk to them myself. What the photographer (You know him and he knows you. If he wishes to make himself known to you as the photographer, that is between him and you) told me is that they refused to allow their faces to be photographed, and that they were also accompanied by another "Black Robe" who would not let himself be photographed even from behind.

Positive ID of the two Priests in the photo can, and was made from the partial profile of their faces in the photo I uploaded. (That is why I blotted them out). Those two Priests were identified as being from a Jesuit Parish in downtown Phoenix. Whether they are actual Jesuit Priests is of no concern to me. The fact that they were from a Jesuit Parish, is far more than most people would need to perk their interest, and form some logical conclusions. That only being that... They were obviously interested in "something" out there enough to go out there and have a look around. Now... It was springtime, and they could have only been interested in the spring blossoms. In consideration of some other "unspoken circumstances" that occurred just prior to them being photographed out there, I lean towards believing that they had more than the spring blossoms on their minds. You may conclude anything you wish.

Like I just told Don Jose a few minutes ago...

If I told you any more I would have to shoot you.

Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

Just for the record: Jacobo Sedelmayr's route from just northeast of Casa Grande to the Salt river, took him to the west of the Superstition Mountains. He admits he was limited in his explorations because of the Apache.

Approaching the Superstitions from the south, it only makes sense to skirt them to the west. That would be especially true in Sedelmayr's time, as the mountains were where the Apache held the ground.
They would have looked impassable to Sedelmayr.

The book that Jim got his map from is an excellent account of Jacobo Sedelmayr's journeys. I have Lawton Kennedy's copy, which is marked 1 of 600. The pages were uncut when I received it.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Jim Hatt]

re: Just for the record: Jacobo Sedelmayr's route from just northeast of Casa Grande to the Salt river, took him to the west of the Superstition Mountains. He admits he was limited in his explorations because of the Apache.


I would hesitate to form any hard and fast conclusions based on that map, and anything written in the book Joe. Like everything else concerning the stone maps, and any possible connection between them and the Jesuits. A little "teaking" of things here and there for the good of the Church, would have been considered acceptable at the time.

Year by year, there is a growing amount of "circumstantial" evidence pointing to long ago covert Jesuit actives in the Superstition Mountains.

All we can do is wonder, and search for the physical evidence required to prove it.

Every year, more and more people join in the search. Maybe someday...................

Jim

 

[cactusjumper]

Jim,

No doubt there are better sources for this information, but right now Sedelmayr's written word remains the only tangible contemporaneous evidence. It's also possible that he did a little "teaking" in his writings, but that is pure speculation based on personal biases.

His "Relacion, 1746" remains the "best evidence". For those interested, that begins on page 15 and ends, including notes, on page 53.

There were a number of years there, where I let my own biases influence my conclusion. Years of research, with an open mind to both sides, have led me to other conclusions. I was not predisposed to disbelieve the Jesuit treasure legends. Many are predisposed to believe them, IMHO, as I once was.

One of those driving forces, in my opinion, is the desire to profit with books, copies of artifacts......etc.
The other might be to become an authority on the subject......EGO.

It's good to see that you have read Dunne's book. Shows a sensible approach to difficult question.

Joe Ribaudo