The Peralta Stones

[Cubfan64]

Welcome Goldbugpr,

I think I'm missing a picture you posted somewhere. From your post, I assume it is the pic of the Stone Maps on the bumper of Tumlinson's Car.

Roy,

FIRST of all, I consider you a friend as well. Once again, you read too much into my posts sometimes. I HAVE NEVER USED HAHAHA SARCASTICALLY. Whenever I have used it, I meant the preceding statement to be funny.

WHENEVER I have said "Go back and reread" it was NEVER meant to be disrespectful. It was only said because whatever you posted gave me distinct impression that you only picked parts of my post to comment on. For example:

FIRST SENTENCE of my post:

By using the word "HOAX", you are stating that the Stone Maps were created in order to defraud somebody. For whatever reason (money, fame, joke, whatever), a HOAX is an attempt to defraud.

Your very next post referring to mine:

Mike I have to respectfully disagree with your definition of "HOAX" you are taking it as meaning an attempt to defraud for money, which is not the meaning of the word. Hoax has a very different meaning from what you are claiming;

Main Entry: 1hoax
Pronunciation: \ˈhōks\
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: probably contraction of hocus
Date: circa 1796
: to trick into believing or accepting as genuine something false and often preposterous
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hoax

It is a hoax when someone carves wooden feet and makes fake Bigfoot tracks, it is a hoax when someone fills a plastic dry-cleaning bag with hot air and attaches a candle to make people see a "UFO" light in the sky, and it is a hoax if someone creates fake Spanish maps and inscriptions, even when they do not make a CASH profit on the deal. Gosh Mike is everything about money value to you? tongue3 Not everyone thinks that way, or your definition of "hoax" would be correct.

We can only surmise what benefit or satisfaction a person gets out of perpetrating a hoax, but it is NOT always about money amigo. You also are taking Bob Corbin's stated recollection of overhearing as having greater weight than the published opinions of several experts who examined the stones too. Bob could very well be stating it as he recalls it, without lying at all; and a "belief" that they were "at least 100 years old" can be a MISTAKEN belief. The person making that statement may well have been guessing just by seeing the "1847" date on them, we just DON'T know.

Now, I ask everybody here if it even remotely appears like Roy read what I posted? All anybody has to do is READ MY VERY FIRST SENTENCE!

See Roy, THAT is why I ask you to reread my posts from time to time. Nothing disrespectful. I just don't believe for the life of me that there was any way you actually read what I posted, and I thought that if you went back and reread my post, then you might answer your own question. I may get quite frustrated with you from time to time when you start to pick gnat$hit out of pepper to avoid the main argument, but I never intend any disrespect.

If anybody wishes to see what my being disrespectful and rude looks like, just go into the past and read my back and forths with Rangler, Bill Riley (Wyatt Westwood, Legend Hunter, Blackbeard, and many others), Stildign, Blindbowman, and John Kemm. Whenever I get my blood up with someone, I don't hold a thing back. I give full broadsides. It used to get me a lot of warnings from Jeff and Marc. HAHAHA (See Roy. Funny not sarcastic).

Best-Mike

Mike, Goldbugpr was just answering my question as to where the Priest/Horse map was during the B&W "bumper" photograph (the same one you referred to). I didn't realize that was it under the others. I wish the light and shadows didn't make it so nothing can be seen on that bottom stone.

 

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[gollum]

Hey,

For the longest time, I wondered the very same thing. The story as I knew it was that Tumlinson first tripped over the "DON" stone. He took it back to show his wife. He grabbed a shovel out of the trunk of the car, went back to the spot and dug up the rest.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Hey SH,

Wouldn't the turn out where Tumlinson parked be where I marked?

Best-Mike

 

[Jim Hatt]

Thank you for your kindly advice on how to hunt for treasures, your approach is the "put all your chips on one card" method which many prefer;

Jim, your obvious desire to convince everyone that the Peralta Stones are the genuine article may prove to be an uphill battle amigo. You say that you have "the goods" which will prove the case, but cannot or will not make them public; ergo, you cannot expect that people are going to be swayed withOUT seeing that information you hold.

Good afternoon Roy,
Rain can be a blessing at times!

Since I have already addressed most of what is in your post and find it to be useless to keep telling you the same thing over and over, I will limit my reply to the parts of it that have not already been addressed.



re: Thank you for your kindly advice on how to hunt for treasures, your approach is the "put all your chips on one card" method which many prefer;

I believe you are a bit remote from my search to be concluding what my "approach" to the search is.

Had you been around here for the last 20 years you would know that I came to Arizona to search for the LDM. It is first and foremost on my list of things to do with respect to treasure hunting and always will be. My story has been online at the DUSA website since 2005 and clearly explains how I came to be sidetracked from that search and became interested in the stone maps. I have referred you to that article many times, but it appears that you either have not found time to read it, or you have not taken the time to understand it as you read it. I was well into my search for the LDM by the time I became aware of the existence of the stone maps. because of the time I had already spent in the mtns searching for the LDM, certain things on the stone maps got my attention. Eventually I became convinced that the LDM may have a lot more history involved with it, than just what we got from Jacob Waltz. It may even have more history involved than what the people who came just prior to Waltz (and showed him what we now refer to as the LDM) were aware of.

ie: Jesuit History!

I am far from having all of my chips on the stone map card. But... Just like a half good poker hand... When I see another card that may fit well in the hand I am holding, you bet I am going to pick it up and keep it with the others. That is what the stone maps are to me. A card that fits with the other cards I already had in my hand.


re: Jim, your obvious desire to convince everyone that the Peralta Stones are the genuine article may prove to be an uphill battle amigo. You say that you have "the goods" which will prove the case, but cannot or will not make them public; ergo, you cannot expect that people are going to be swayed withOUT seeing that information you hold.


At the risk of boring everyone else that may be following this discussion, and paying attention to what I have already said... I will repeat myself again just for you.

I have no desire to convince anyone that the stone maps are authentic. My only desire is to let everyone know that "I" believe they are authentic. I said only that I have seen things that have convinced me that they are authentic. I did not say that I had anything that would convince anyone else, and yes... I said that I hold these things precious, and will not make them public simply for the purpose of satisfying your curiosity, or to convince you to believe what I believe.

On many issues, I may have no idea of what the right track is, and I offer no opinions. But when I do know the truth of the matter, I am not a bit shy about getting it out there.

I have defended the authenticity of the stone maps against the frivolous arguments presented against them, by both amateurs and PhD's to the best of my ability and knowledge of the subject.

If this discussion drifts back into the Never-Never-Land distorted version of the story of the stone maps, so be it! Nobody is required or expected, to accept everything I say as "gospel truth" but those who are interested in getting as close to it as possible, would be wise to consider my words very carefully before dismissing them.

I too hope you all find the treasures for which you search!

Busca El Coazon,

Jim Hatt

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul and Phil,

I had the same questions about pictures of the Horse/Priest Map, and asked about it a few years ago. I was told there were no such pictures.

The slab under the two trail maps on the bumper of that car was wood.

You may take that to the bank.

Take care,

Joe

 

[starman 1]

"In an old cabin, Ray found a saddle bag with a diary in it which had been kept by a man named Tumlinson from Texas. The diary told of a trip to Mexico to locate a mining family and it gave a complete run down of the mines they had worked.

"The diary also told of an expedition composed of 500 people, Tumlinson was one of them, who came from Mexico to Arizona in the 1890`s to look for treasure an an exceptionally rich mine. The Mexicans went home empty."

Don Shade, Esperanza page 40.

 

[somehiker]

Shiker ,thanks for your past lengthy reply. As the stones are concerned is it possible some like the Heart are the real deal,and others are faked,like the Horse/1847 stone are latter made as a Ruse. The heart stone and Latin style inscribed crosses look more like Spanish in nature.While the 1847/horse stone,I feel could have been produced by Indians,who we know from Bolton,were educated in reading and writeing by the Jesuits. Why,the 1847,is this a date,or does the #"s pertain to other imformation.If you scramble the #"s you could have
1784,or 1-8-47,or add them up to 20 {varas},could be a birth date,buriel date,anniversay,9-11{nah}.Just some random thoughts here,from my scrambled brain.

Hi GD:
I think that the fact that the Heart Stone matches the size and profile of the pocket in the second Trail Stone eliminates the possibility of a ruse,as does the fact that the lines match from one to the other.It appears to me that the Heart Stone is the "key" to most of the arguments for authenticity.
I do not believe that the 1847 at the bottom of the priest,as well as within the heart pocket,refer to a year.The 18 may apply to the "eighteen places" however.The fact that the 1847 within the heart pocket is oversized may indicate a greater degree of importance,as does the fact that all of the numbers also appear individually on the various stones.I will have to spend more time on site to pursue that riddle further.
The indians would have known about the horse that I know...I believe they even named a canyon after him.He was there long before they were,maybe even before horses of flesh and blood evolved.I suspect that the first appearance of such an animal would have made quite the impression on a people whose religion was based on both the natural and supernatural.Especially if it was the same colour.The maker of the stone(s) could have been a native craftsman as there were more than a few loyal to the order.As I said before...with a handful of tools,a drawing and a slab of stone,there were probably plenty of candidates that could have accomplished such a task.

Regards:SH

 

[Oroblanco]

Somehiker wrote

Quote
" Having had a closeup look at the stone maps in the museum,I too noticed that they are not flat enough to have been "machined" as claimed by these "experts".
I have seen more than one set of the stones,Beth,but my statement was referring to the stones that were on display at the SMM during my visit in April of this year.It has been claimed that these are the original maps.I could be mistaken about the assertions that the stones appeared to have been machined "flat" since I cannot seem to find a copy of the written report that the quoted experts filed with the writer of the article.Perhaps you have a copy in one of those several boxes of materials on the "Peralta Stones" that you could post.I believe that a fella by the name of Gene Botts made a claim of having the original stones examined by another expert stonecutter who made strikingly similar comments.Seems that pretty much anyone who wishes to discount the stone maps has access to an "expert" or two.I am merely stating that my own observations do not reveal any evidence of mechanical "machining" or power drilling of any kind as claimed by these people.

Well Somehiker, I don't claim to be "the expert" on the Peralta Stones or anything else; are you? Does a person have to be an expert on a subject before being able to even talk about them? We wouldn't have much talking going on in these forums if that is the case.

Jim Hatt wrote

I have referred you to that article many times, but it appears that you either have not found time to read it, or you have not taken the time to understand it as you read it.

Is it that you want me to critique/criticize your article, try to find fault, line by line? It is well written, not difficult to follow and a pretty good read - I just don't agree that the evidence proves the stones are the genuine article. You have a more 'positive' approach to this, clearly - even look at the way you phrased your sentences here;

"Eventually I became convinced that the LDM may have a lot more history involved with it, than just what we got from Jacob Waltz. It may even have more history involved than what the people who came just prior to Waltz (and showed him what we now refer to as the LDM) were aware of.

Where you say "may have" it is also possible that it "may NOT have" and without evidence to support the positive, what disproves the negative? In a lot of this we just don't have the answers, as far as I know.

Jim Hatt also wrote

At the risk of boring everyone else that may be following this discussion, and paying attention to what I have already said... I will repeat myself again just for you.

I have no desire to convince anyone that the stone maps are authentic. My only desire is to let everyone know that "I" believe they are authentic.

I think that point is abundantly clear amigo.

Jim Hatt also wrote

With that, my reason for coming into this discussion is completed. I have defended the authenticity of the stone maps against the frivolous arguments presented against them, by both amateurs and PhD's to the best of my ability and knowledge of the subject.

I take it then that you are not going to provide that contrary opinion on the validity/authenticity of the Peralta Stones, signed by PHDs? Is it something that is NOT published, or is published but protected by copyright, etc something that could be read elsewhere? It may not be too important to you, for others to see those opinions or not, but I would appreciate it.

I am sorry if anything I said has ruffed any feathers, keep in mind that my non-belief does not carry more weight than anyone else's belief. and sure don't have any PHD's to lend any more credence to opinions. You may well have "the last laugh" and I will be very happy to congratulate you.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

PS oops almost forgot - WELCOME TO Treasurenet starman 1 !

 

[gollum]

Welcome to TNet Starman.

I have to say that Esparanza was one book I did not have. Needless to say that after reading your post, I went straight to the Sup Mt Museum and ordered a copy. HAHAHA (See Roy, funny not sarcastic).

I know that originally after his death, UC Berkeley received a lot of his research papers and notes. I found that for some reason, not much of them remain. HHHHHHHHHHMMMMMMMMMMMM?

Best-Mike

 

[somehiker]

"Well Somehiker, I don't claim to be "the expert" on the Peralta Stones or anything else; are you? Does a person have to be an expert on a subject before being able to even talk about them? We wouldn't have much talking going on in these forums if that is the case."

It's not about you or I,Roy.I doubt that anyone here thinks that either of us are in any way "experts".
I would suspect that most of us are just learning as we go along.
It's just that there are limitations in the "monkey see,monkey do" way of acquiring knowledge and skills.
Especially for those with letters following their names.
It should not be necessary to be an expert to make a comment,but one should at least be original to some degree.
Anything less,I can go read somewhere else.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Here's my bank deposit :

Take care,

Joe

 

[somehiker]

Certainly looks like a slab of wood,Joe.Too bad there aren't more photos.I'm not sure if Tumlinson took the photo, and when, and there may have been many taken while he had them.I do know that I would have not used any of them like the plank was used,for fear of damage or breakage.Would have probably taken the two down,put the other up,and shot a pic of each side as well.

Regards:Wayne

 

[Oroblanco]

A piggy bank amigo Joe? Sheesh I sure wish I had a piggie bank to put money in (and some money to put in it ) but events forced an un-timely demise to my own piggie bank a while back. And don't ask how big a while amigos, I am 29 just ask anyone or take a look at my 'movie star' (ala Gabbie Hayes) face, available elsewhere online.

The B&W photo is the first taken of the stones right? It would make sense then if we did not see all of the stones in it, for they didn't find them all that first time, correct? If we could see all of the stones in that first image, and the story of their discovery says that Tumlinson went back and dug to find the rest, it would mean that part of the story was false, correct? So we shouldn't see all the stones in that first photo, if I am thinking this through correctly.

If I can avoid ruffing any MORE feathers, I would like one question answered; what specifically on the stones, makes them Jesuit and NOT Franciscan? Thank you in advance, to anyone who cares to answer this one which has bothered me a while now.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Starman 1,

Welcome to our little world.

Don Shade wrote an interesting book. He didn't question the authenticity of, just about, anything.

Jim Hatt wrote:

"With that, my reason for coming into this discussion is completed. I have defended the authenticity of the stone maps against the frivolous arguments presented against them, by both amateurs and PhD's to the best of my ability and knowledge of the subject."

A very good friend who I, and others in the Dutch Hunting community, consider to be "The Dean" of the history of the Superstition Mountains and their many legends, believes the Stone Maps, Crosses and the Latin Heart were modern day creations........1900's. He has been there and done that. He was around when these artifacts were first brought into public view.

Like many who doubt these "artifacts" authenticity, he has been roundly abused for voicing those doubts. I will take his opinion and word over the empty claims of most. On the other hand, that's just me. Any one of you may have another truth that's just as good.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Judging from that knot and the jagged edge on the right side of the object supporting the Stone Maps, I would HAVE to agree that it is definitely a wood plank.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"If I can avoid ruffing any MORE feathers, I would like one question answered; what specifically on the stones, makes them Jesuit and NOT Franciscan? Thank you in advance, to anyone who cares to answer this one which has bothered me a while now."

IMHO, Absolutely nothing! In fact, "El COBOLLO DE SANTA FE" might be construed to hint at Franciscan envolvement.

Good question.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike and Wayne,

Actually I looked into this question back in 2002. This was my post on the LDM Forum:

Joe Ribaudo Post subject: something missing?Posted: Tue Dec 31, 2002 7:24 pm


Expert

Joined: Tue Sep 17, 2002 10:36 pm
Posts: 4571 S.C.,
You have come up with a possible reason for the missing stones and Terry has stated that "The 2 part Map Stones are sitting on top of the Priest/Horse Stone".
Is Bobbies horse in a comic or coloring book? I am not thinking as well as I once did, and am a little confused on this point.

It seems a little illogical, at least to me, that someone would take the considerable time and effort required to manufacture these tablets and then take them to an out of the way, remote, location and bury them. He, I suppose, would then sit in his living room waiting in front of his T.V. with a maniacle grin, waiting for the news that someone had gone to that spot and dug them up. I am assuming that televisions had been invented at this time in my scenario. I am assuming you were not serious and am answering in a manner, which I hope, will bring a smile to your face, rather then having you go for your gun. You going to stick with that story, or have I made a point? If you are going to say that the maps are a hoax, you need to bring Tomlinson into the perpetration of that lie. My guess here, is that you will not there.

Terry,
The object that the two Stone Maps are setting on is not the Priest/Horse Stone, in my opinion. As a guess, I think it is a piece of wood planking. The edges of the object are too sharp and do not conform to the shape and appearance of that item. It would also seem logical, that the picture would show the face of that tablet, along with the others. If you closely compare the object, with the tablet in question, I think you might agree.
Is this one of the things answered in the old forum?

Wiz,
Since I know you are interested in the story of the Stone Maps, I assumed you would jump right into this topic.
Joe
____________________________

As you can see, I was a true believer in the Stone Maps back then. Yes, I was sure they were Jesuit.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

As far as I am concerned, belief or non belief, I can't find anything that directly ties them to the Church at all. Neither can I find a direct relation to any specific family or person.

There are many possibilities, but nothing "set in stone" so to speak HAHAHA.

As I have said several times before, without a treasure being found or some historical provenance coming forward EVERYTHING is a possibility (hoaxes, authentic, and anything else under the sun). I just have my personal beliefs and opinions based on the people I have spoken to and the research I have done.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you for the replies. The religious motifs and date would be (in my non-PHD, non-expert opinion) hinting at Franciscans rather than Jesuits, which may not mean much in the long run but could have subtle difference in the interpretation. A lot of people forget that the Franciscans were in AZ before the Jesuits and were there long after they were gone <until 1827, I think> so it is a possibility that the stones were created by Franciscans, though that date is a puzzle - assuming it is a date.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"Neither can I find a direct relation to any specific family or person."

While admittedly circumstantial, this is one hell of a coincidence:

[Perhaps one of Chuck Aylor's favorite quotes best describes the Aylors and their quest for gold in the Superstition Mountains:

"You would play upon me; you would seem to know my stops; you would pluck out the heart of my mystery; you would sound me from my lowest note to the top of my compass."]

Page 126 from Tom Kollenborn's "Superstition Mountain: A Ride Through Time".

As "evidence" for the Stone Maps goes, I believe this is as close as it gets.

Take care,

Joe