The Peralta Stones

[Jim Hatt]

Gee, Jim that sounds sort of like you are politely saying "Shut up, go away and get a life!"
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Geez Roy,

Now WHO's putting words into WHO's mouth?

I would never say that to you (In those words anyway)

What I am trying to tell you is that from where you sit, and with the information you have to work with, and the limited time you have to invest. You are just chasing your own tail, by trying to make any sense out of these maps or their history. There is 10 times as much dis-information in circulation about them as there is truth. Much of this was INTENTIONAL and done by people who are no longer walking in this world.

Additionally... much of the known truth about the maps, is and has been, jealously guarded and protected from the public for a long time. You just do not have the necessary information, and background on the subject of the stone maps, to try to tackle the job of understanding them.

If I saw you trying to rebuild the engine in your truck without owning a single hand tool, and never having done it before. I would give you similar advice. "Let someone do it that has done it before, and has all the tools required for the job". I would do that out of friendship, not out of spite.

I have been working with these maps, and chasing down their history, right here on the ground, where that history was made, for the last 20+ years, and "I" still do not have everything I need to solve them!!!!!!!!!!!!! All I have that might put me a step or two ahead of anyone else, is my time in the field, on the ground that the maps apply to, and some "inside" information that I have a lot of faith in the accuracy of. There is indisputable evidence out there in the field, but I worked very hard for that knowledge, and I intend to jealously guard it as tightly as everyone else guards their hard earned information.

I am not going to post that information on the internet, or anywhere else, just to convince the non-believers that the maps are authentic. I sometimes post things that encourage believers to go on believing, and challenge things that are obviously B.S. but that's all. The stone maps are an Enigma and will remain so until someone solves them. Until that time comes there are no "Experts" on the subject. All there are... are people who stand out above the rest, because of their hard work and dedication to researching the history, and following the trail in the field.

From my point of view... Mike McChesney is a "GIANT" in the area of research about the stone maps. He has constantly amazed me for years, with what he has been able to learn from his distant location, that I have not learned, from being right here where that history was made.

He has paid his dues many times over, and deserves the respect that should come with that effort expended! For you or anyone else deny him that respect, based on nothing but your "Gut Feelings", whim of the moment, or something that you pulled off some other website, really chaps my A$$.

I am close enough to the subject, and have been long enough, to recognize when someone has done their homework, and when they have not.

Maybe I am telling you to go away and shut-up. (jn so many words). But if you have any respect at all, for the time and effort I also have invested into the stone maps, you will give my words some serious thought. Pick a project that you have the knowledge and tools to complete, and leave the stone maps to the people that are prepared to work on them.

Jim Hatt

 

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[Springfield]

.... much of the known truth about the maps, is and has been, jealously guarded and protected from the public for a long time. You just do not have the necessary information, and background on the subject of the stone maps, to try to tackle the job of understanding them.

.... Maybe I am telling you to go away and shut-up. (jn so many words). But if you have any respect at all, for the time and effort I also have invested into the stone maps, you will give my words some serious thought. Pick a project that you have the knowledge and tools to complete, and leave the stone maps to the people that are prepared to work on them.

Jim Hatt

In other words, you don't have an solution either.

I'm sure you are a nice man with plenty of interesting ideas to share about the stones. When you begin to run out of time, you should publish your findings.

 

[Jim Hatt]

In other words, you don't have an solution either.

Hello Springfield,

My words from above...

"I have been working with these maps, and chasing down their history, right here on the ground, where that history was made, for the last 20+ years, and "I" still do not have everything I need to solve them!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

I have never made any claims about having solved the stone maps, but I take every opportunity to shout from the highest stump I can find, that "I" believe they are authentic maps to something of great value, and passionately challenge anyone that suggests otherwise!

I'm sure you are a nice man with plenty of interesting ideas to share about the stones. When you begin to run out of time, you should publish your findings.

I have been openly sharing some of the results of my research, and field work for a long time. Some of it can be fond in an article online at:

http://www.desertusa.com/ldm-1/peralta.html

Don't expect to find anything in there that will give you any clues about WHERE I think the maps lead to. But if you are interested in the history I have collected over the years, and my theories about how to read the maps, you may find it interesting.

Jim Hatt

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Additionally... Much of the known truth about the maps, is and has been, jealously guarded and protected from the public for a long time. You just do not have the necessary information, and background on the subject of the stone maps, to try to tackle the job of understanding them."

You see......Jim is the one who has been "jealously" guarding and protecting this secret information for all these years. He is still using that information to chase down his own dreams, so it won't be made public anytime soon. That seems prudent, but he just wants us all to know........He KNOWS!.

"From my point of view... Mike McChesney is a "GIANT" in the area of research about the stone maps. He has constantly amazed me for years, with what he has been able to learn from his distant location, that I have not learned, from being right here where that history was made."

Mike does know a great deal about the Stone Maps. He has chased down a number of truths and rumors over a number of years. All of his information has come, as far as I know, from others. Unlike Jim, he has not spent years searching the mountains, and yet Jim calls him a "GIANT in the area of research...." As Jim is eons ahead of everyone else on this subject, having all of that "secret information" and years on the ground, he must be a god.

You have no chance of impressing him with your knowledge, as he denigrates those who have spent years learning their trade, and more years earning a living by practicing it in the field. He is, by his own lights, a treasure hunter, so he knows more about their specializations than they do.

While they can back up their opinions with.....Why, Jim's opinions are only backed up by........secret information. Like the rest of us, until he comes up with verifiable proof, we are all in the same boat as bb, Sante Fe.... and David. That would be, empty claims.

Good luck in further conversations with the Stone Map "god".

Take care,

Joe

 

[ghostdog]

Shiker ,thanks for your past lengthy reply. As the stones are concerned is it possible some like the Heart are the real deal,and others are faked,like the Horse/1847 stone are latter made as a Ruse. The heart stone and Latin style inscribed crosses look more like Spanish in nature.While the 1847/horse stone,I feel could have been produced by Indians,who we know from Bolton,were educated in reading and writeing by the Jesuits. Why,the 1847,is this a date,or does the #"s pertain to other imformation.If you scramble the #"s you could have
1784,or 1-8-47,or add them up to 20 {varas},could be a birth date,buriel date,anniversay,9-11{nah}.Just some random thoughts here,from my scrambled brain.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

"I have been openly sharing some of the results of my research, and field work for a long time. Some of it can be fond in an article online at:

http://www.desertusa.com/ldm-1/peralta.html

Don't expect to find anything in there that will give you any clues about WHERE I think the maps lead to. But if you are interested in the history I have collected over the years, and my theories about how to read the maps, you may find it interesting."

What you won't find over in Jim's world, are my theories and the results of my own searches, from over forty years. Jim deleted all of my posts, after I replied to his posts ridiculing my work. He could not see where my map conformed to the Stone Maps, and since they disagreed with Jim's conclusions......they are all gone.

Now Jim will say I was being disruptive, but he has my permission to post the offending posts here. He claims he saved them, so I have no objections. My guess is that he will make excuses as to why he won't do that.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Jim Hatt]

A lot of Joe's posts still remain in the DUSA Forums. Most of his posts that were removed, were done so because of blatant violations to the Terms of use he agreed to when he applied for membership to the DUSA forums. (Much the same as you see him doing here on T-Net) Off topic posts and personal attacks on any member of the DUSA forums are quickly deleted, and the member is warned. (just as Joe was warned in the post I made to him below).

He ignored the warning and was banned from posting shortly after. There are still plenty of his posts remaining in the forums over there. Whether his maps still exist or not, I do not know, but if they are gone it is because they existed in a topic that he made such a "Mess" of (That was impossible to clean up to a level considered acceptable by the management of the website) that I just deleted the entire thing after Banning him. His arguments against the validity of the stone maps, crosses and Latin heart still exist in the pages previous to the the page in the link below. His personal attacks are all gone.

Jim Hatt

From: http://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=370&start=50

"Joe,

The topic here is the stone crosses themselves. Not the trials and tribulations of Michael Bilbrey. That subject has already been covered to a conclusion in another discussion.

Everyone knows and agrees that Michael was convicted and served time for selling some kind of "Snake Oil". Having never heard his side of that story, I reserve judgment on the character of the man himself, and allow for the possibility that he too may have been a victim of this crime. It IS possible that he was sucked into believing that his "Cure" worked. That would make him "Stupid" to say the least, but if so, he has certainly paid for his stupidity.

He served his time for his crime (which by the way had nothing to do with the stone crosses) and is trying to put the matter behind him.

If you want to totally dismiss the stone crosses because of Bilbrey's connection with them. That's fine. Just say so and be done with it.

Once should be enough.

I will not allow you to turn this discussion into a constant Crucifixion of Michael Bilbrey.

I have a copy of the audio tape you keep referring to and have had it for many years. I read many things in it differently than you do. That's how bias works. No doubt everyone that listens to it will arrive at their own unique conclusions about it.

I have no desire to permanently ban you from this site. I think you have a lot to offer, in the way of historical knowledge on some of the subjects being discussed here, but if you are not going to participate in that spirit I will.

I believe the Stone Crosses are Authentic and fabricated by the Jesuit Order.

You believe they are Fakes and fabricated by Michael Bilbrey.

You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine.

We can either agree to disagree on that subject, and move on to something else, or you can go post somewhere else.

Jim Hatt"

 

[Jim Hatt]

Now Jim will say I was being disruptive, but he has my permission to post the offending posts here. He claims he saved them, so I have no objections. My guess is that he will make excuses as to why he won't do that.

If you will think back Joe, I already did that once here in the T-Net forums, and the moderators here also found to be so offensive that they deleted them too.

Jim Hatt

 

[jeff of pa]

back on topic please

The Lost Dutchman's Mine ;
The Peralta Stones

 

[cactusjumper]

And that's as close as any of you will get to my offending posts.

Jeff,

Felt the need to reply to Jim's comments, but will be happy to move back to the topic. Thanks for keeping the site clean.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Jeff,

The Bilbrey Stone Crosses are linked to the Stone Maps (if only by location).

Joe,

Jim is not the only person who jealously guards privileged information on the stone maps. In my research, I have found several people with such knowledge that they will only hint at in private. The quality of that information is up in the air. The only thing I have to go by is the quality of the men that hold that information. Some better, some worse. That's all I will say on that subject.

Regarding the Bilbrey Crosses (this is for Springfield); THIS is a case where I might not be so inclined to give the benefit of the doubt to the original owner/finder due to his having been proven in a Court of Law to be less than honest (polite). It would take a good bit of research and discussion before I would spend any serious time or money on an expedition based on them alone.

I have to bow to others on that subject as I have not spent much time or research effort on them.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

All,

I just received a call from Phil Reinhardt asking me to make the following announcement for the museum:

The Superstition Mountain Museum will have the Peralta Stone Maps on display, outside the building and out of the cases, on June 27th. 8 AM to 10 AM. They will be available to be photographed for those
2-Hours.

There is a $20 fee, and the number of photographers will be restricted to 20 people. It's requested that you RSVP. In the event that they don't get 20 RSVP's, the balance of the 20 will be made up of first come first serve.

4087 N. Apache Trail
Apache Junction, AZ 85119
(480) 983-4888

I would suggest that everyone interested call the museum and confirm the information I have posted.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,
Well, I was trying to "bow out" politely, but now have to reply. We are getting a good rain soaking so find myself with' time to play' during the day, though it means the work is piling up for later. Oh well no rest for the wicked as they say. This is pretty durned long so I have to ask your indulgence again - thank you in advance.

Jim Hatt wrote

Quote from: Oroblanco on Today at 12:06:30 AM

Gee, Jim that sounds sort of like you are politely saying "Shut up, go away and get a life!"
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Geez Roy,

Now WHO's putting words into WHO's mouth?

I would never say that to you (In those words anyway)

What I am trying to tell you is that from where you sit, and with the information you have to work with, and the limited time you have to invest. You are just chasing your own tail,
<snip>
Additionally... much of the known truth about the maps, is and has been, jealously guarded and protected from the public for a long time. You just do not have the necessary information, and background on the subject of the stone maps, to try to tackle the job of understanding them.

<snip>

I have been working with these maps, and chasing down their history, right here on the ground, where that history was made, for the last 20+ years, and "I" still do not have everything I need to solve them!!!!!!!!!!!!! All I have that might put me a step or two ahead of anyone else, is my time in the field, on the ground that the maps apply to, and some "inside" information that I have a lot of faith in the accuracy of. There is indisputable evidence out there in the field, but I worked very hard for that knowledge, and I intend to jealously guard it as tightly as everyone else guards their hard earned information.

I am not going to post that information on the internet, or anywhere else, just to convince the non-believers that the maps are authentic. I sometimes post things that encourage believers to go on believing, and challenge things that are obviously B.S. but that's all. The stone maps are an Enigma and will remain so until someone solves them. Until that time comes there are no "Experts" on the subject. All there are... are people who stand out above the rest, because of their hard work and dedication to researching the history, and following the trail in the field.

From my point of view... Mike McChesney is a "GIANT" in the area of research about the stone maps. He has constantly amazed me for years, with what he has been able to learn from his distant location, that I have not learned, from being right here where that history was made.

He has paid his dues many times over, and deserves the respect that should come with that effort expended! For you or anyone else deny him that respect, based on nothing but your "Gut Feelings", whim of the moment, or something that you pulled off some other website, really chaps my A$$.

I am close enough to the subject, and have been long enough, to recognize when someone has done their homework, and when they have not.

Maybe I am telling you to go away and shut-up. (jn so many words). But if you have any respect at all, for the time and effort I also have invested into the stone maps, you will give my words some serious thought. Pick a project that you have the knowledge and tools to complete, and leave the stone maps to the people that are prepared to work on them.

Jim, I consider Mike a friend and I do have great respect for him; he and I have gone "round and round" on a number of occasions, and about as many times find ourselves on the same side. That said, Mike can be very rude and disrespectful in his words, like the instance mentioned previously ("GO BACK AND RE-READ") or sarcasm (HAHAHA) and I don't appreciate such disrespect. I try to be respectful (I slip too sometimes) and generally think of our group here as EQUALS, not with some "masters" and the rest "beginners". It seems that some of us don't view our little group that way.

Beth has accumulated several boxes of materials on the Peralta Stones, and I have spent many evenings going over it. However as noted by others here - two people can look at the same evidence or text and arrive at two polar opposite conclusions. Some things have never turned up like the court order for the stones to be turned over to the museum, so I still have doubt that is really true - court orders are public domain records and several letters and a couple of phone calls failed to turn up any such order. That doesn't PROVE there was no court order, however until I see it, I now have to assume it never existed.

Thank you for your kindly advice on how to hunt for treasures, your approach is the "put all your chips on one card" method which many prefer; there are other ways, like throwing your resources at one after another, which has proven successful for me. It has also taken us literally to the "ends of the continent" and as beautiful and haunting as the Superstitions are, I would not trade the time spent in the Yukon, Alaska, CA, Montana, Wyoming, Nevada, New Mexico, Utah, Colorado, NC, SC, VA, GA, Ontario, British Columbia, Alberta (where technically it was not legal as a non-resident, but having not found any gold I could say I was just 'playin') and so on for an equivalent number of days in the Superstitions. I have learned something on each and every 'expedition' if I were to term it that way, though that would imply vast resources and a large number of people etc when a LOT was done with only what could be carried on your back and only a tarp for a shelter. I rather hate trying to tell a life story because <to me> it sounds like bragging and I am sure that no one would believe it anyway. We lost a great number of photos (non-digital type) in a home fire some years ago, so much of my "proof" that "heck I wuz dare" went up in smoke. It doesn't matter much to me whether anyone believes my "story" or what Beth & I have found anyway - it is no skin off my nose.

All that is totally OFF-TOPIC anyway and my apologies for going off on that tangent. Jim, your obvious desire to convince everyone that the Peralta Stones are the genuine article may prove to be an uphill battle amigo. You say that you have "the goods" which will prove the case, but cannot or will not make them public; ergo, you cannot expect that people are going to be swayed withOUT seeing that information you hold. I am NOT trying to "push" you into posting it all, I know how hard it is to get information or at least how hard it used to be, today things are improved vastly over thirty years ago when you literally had to travel to the various archives, historical societies, surviving relatives etc to have any hope of locating it, and while letters and phone calls did work in many cases; often you would get the run-around by people who thought they personally owned the public records. I would venture to guess that every single member here has a fair amount of info that they are NOT going to share, ever and I don't ask them to usually. Just pointing out that based on what is public, it is NOT enough to convince everyone (including me) the Peralta Stones are the 'real McCoy' so don't expect that everyone is going to just "shut up and go away".

If you want to consider me a 'rank amateur' full of "disinformation" that is your prerequisite, I don't expect you to give respect just on my say-so. You have published a very good case for the Peralta stones, but I have yet to see those counter-opinions from PHDs to those from Desert Archaeology Inc and I don't generally take what a PHD says lightly. They can be plain wrong, or working from incomplete information etc (there are history subjects I disagree with our PHDs very strongly, but with evidence to support this contention) so if you would care to share those counter-opinions from PHDs on the validity of the Peralta Stones, I would love to see them and it would help sway the 'BS meter' from "false" to at least "neutral". Otherwise, "intimidation" tactics <as in verbal, "who are you anyway" and similar> are not going to get the desired result. Besides, a very GOOD person can have very BAD info, and a very BAD person can possess very GOOD info. As the old prospectors used to say - " You can't judge a mine or a horse by the fellow who is selling it to you. "

We all have different standards for what it takes to convince us that a treasure story (or map) is true. I think many of us here have disagreed with others on various topics, and we can disagree and still be friends. It is not going to change anyone's life based on a disagreement over a treasure story, and we have many common interests. It is good to keep a skeptical mind when approaching any treasure story, for there ARE BS stories in the mix, sometimes deliberate, sometimes innocently done. In general I don't need to see stacks of gold bars to convince me, however with a treasure map <and that is ANY treasure map> it takes more than an ore sample or a carved rock to make the case for me.

Somehiker wrote

Hi Jim:
Having had a closeup look at the stone maps in the museum,I too noticed that they are not flat enough to have been "machined" as claimed by these "experts".

Are those stones in the museum the ORIGINALS or are they COPIES? It does make a difference for many purposes, from matching up the type and origin site of the rock, to whether it has been machined, drilled with a power tool etc. Thank you in advance.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Coffee?

 

[Oroblanco]

Well our local rain has quit, got to get back to 'vork' as McManus put it. Will stop by later this evening, hope you all have a great day.
Roy

 

[Cubfan64]

Question that I should probably know the answer to. The old black and white photograph of the stones on the front bumper of an older vehicle shortly after they were found only shows 2 of the stones. Are there any existing photographs of the Horse/Priest stone from the same time period? Was there ever an explanation around the time of the photograph as to why that one was not displayed?

I apologize for asking this as I'm sure the answer is out there in cyberworld somewhere, but I've never really spent any time on the Stone Maps, so I'm more than just a little unfamiliar with the facts.

Thanks

 

[goldbugpr]

The third stone is under the two you see.

 

[goldbugpr]

Thanks Joe I found my password.
The photo session with the Stone Maps is $40. Sorry for the error.

 

[somehiker]

Quote
" Having had a closeup look at the stone maps in the museum,I too noticed that they are not flat enough to have been "machined" as claimed by these "experts".
I have seen more than one set of the stones,Beth,but my statement was referring to the stones that were on display at the SMM during my visit in April of this year.It has been claimed that these are the original maps.I could be mistaken about the assertions that the stones appeared to have been machined "flat" since I cannot seem to find a copy of the written report that the quoted experts filed with the writer of the article.Perhaps you have a copy in one of those several boxes of materials on the "Peralta Stones" that you could post.I believe that a fella by the name of Gene Botts made a claim of having the original stones examined by another expert stonecutter who made strikingly similar comments.Seems that pretty much anyone who wishes to discount the stone maps has access to an "expert" or two.I am merely stating that my own observations do not reveal any evidence of mechanical "machining" or power drilling of any kind as claimed by these people.
Cubfan:
As I recall,it has been claimed that the first (horse/priest)stone was found in 1949 along with the heart stone.The second and third (trail map) stones were found the following year and the latin heart sometime later.This may or may not be chronologically accurate.Al Reser and Bob Ward are both part of that story.

Here is a photo of the site.

Regards:SH.

 

[Cubfan64]

The third stone is under the two you see.

Thanks Phil - much appreciated

 

[gollum]

Welcome Goldbugpr,

I think I'm missing a picture you posted somewhere. From your post, I assume it is the pic of the Stone Maps on the bumper of Tumlinson's Car.

Roy,

FIRST of all, I consider you a friend as well. Once again, you read too much into my posts sometimes. I HAVE NEVER USED HAHAHA SARCASTICALLY. Whenever I have used it, I meant the preceding statement to be funny.

WHENEVER I have said "Go back and reread" it was NEVER meant to be disrespectful. It was only said because whatever you posted gave me distinct impression that you only picked parts of my post to comment on. For example:

FIRST SENTENCE of my post:

By using the word "HOAX", you are stating that the Stone Maps were created in order to defraud somebody. For whatever reason (money, fame, joke, whatever), a HOAX is an attempt to defraud.

Your very next post referring to mine:

Mike I have to respectfully disagree with your definition of "HOAX" you are taking it as meaning an attempt to defraud for money, which is not the meaning of the word. Hoax has a very different meaning from what you are claiming;

Main Entry: 1hoax
Pronunciation: \ˈhōks\
Function: transitive verb
Etymology: probably contraction of hocus
Date: circa 1796
: to trick into believing or accepting as genuine something false and often preposterous
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/hoax

It is a hoax when someone carves wooden feet and makes fake Bigfoot tracks, it is a hoax when someone fills a plastic dry-cleaning bag with hot air and attaches a candle to make people see a "UFO" light in the sky, and it is a hoax if someone creates fake Spanish maps and inscriptions, even when they do not make a CASH profit on the deal. Gosh Mike is everything about money value to you? tongue3 Not everyone thinks that way, or your definition of "hoax" would be correct.

We can only surmise what benefit or satisfaction a person gets out of perpetrating a hoax, but it is NOT always about money amigo. You also are taking Bob Corbin's stated recollection of overhearing as having greater weight than the published opinions of several experts who examined the stones too. Bob could very well be stating it as he recalls it, without lying at all; and a "belief" that they were "at least 100 years old" can be a MISTAKEN belief. The person making that statement may well have been guessing just by seeing the "1847" date on them, we just DON'T know.

Now, I ask everybody here if it even remotely appears like Roy read what I posted? All anybody has to do is READ MY VERY FIRST SENTENCE!

See Roy, THAT is why I ask you to reread my posts from time to time. Nothing disrespectful. I just don't believe for the life of me that there was any way you actually read what I posted, and I thought that if you went back and reread my post, then you might answer your own question. I may get quite frustrated with you from time to time when you start to pick gnat$hit out of pepper to avoid the main argument, but I never intend any disrespect.

If anybody wishes to see what my being disrespectful and rude looks like, just go into the past and read my back and forths with Rangler, Bill Riley (Wyatt Westwood, Legend Hunter, Blackbeard, and many others), Stildign, Blindbowman, and John Kemm. Whenever I get my blood up with someone, I don't hold a thing back. I give full broadsides. It used to get me a lot of warnings from Jeff and Marc. HAHAHA (See Roy. Funny not sarcastic).

Best-Mike