The Peralta Stones

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening mr oro: You posted -- >> <meds, to keep those danged voices quiet and reduce those psychotic episodes >
********
Is this a chronic condition of LDM seekers from too much sun in the deep canyons? Hmm maybe I had better reconsider looking for the Dutchman, I certainly wouldn't want to end up like You, joe, gullum., or horrors, like Djuicy. sheesh.

Be forwarned Bear. could be "Et Tu Bear".

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[Oroblanco]

Good evening mr oro: You posted -- >> <meds, to keep those danged voices quiet and reduce those psychotic episodes >
********
Is this a chronic condition of LDM seekers from too much sun in the deep canyons? Hmm maybe I had better reconsider looking for the Dutchman, I certainly wouldn't want to end up like You, joe, gullum., or horrors, like Djuicy. sheesh.

Be forwarned Bear. could be "Et Tu Bear".

Don Jose de La Mancha

Chronic, well yes but like its southern variant Tayopa-fever, it is "treatable". Those deep canyons are often the only places to find any shade after all. Besides, it does help keep those pharmaceutical stocks going along well! I am fairly safe from any further deterioration, being over 1000 miles away, but can't speak for our other amigos here.
Oroblanco

 

[Quinan Bear]

Oroblanco;

No, I have not found any ball court to say, but I have found ruins. May I point out, that if there is a ball court ? there would not be a mine or vault near by. Well If it were I? the gold and mines, would be far from a place where many people gather to play a game. I would have the mine and vault at least a mile away.

QUESTION?
Have you considered that idea that this "ball court" is not that at all, but a coral or even the foundation of another type structure.? (just I thought)
Did you all get my file for the stone overlays? Speak up if you didn't or if you want it. thanks.

I don't see a ball court. I believe that if it were a ball court then the walls would be slanted in towards each other. This way the people could all see better. This place looks more similar to a water tank or food storage or a coral. These places are built where a large population lives. A large group would need lots of food (could include animals) and water and in order to acomplish this in times of drought. you would need a place of storage.

Water most likely was kept in undrground reservoirs, Animals would be kept in corals and food in cold cellars or underground like the water.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Bear: no corral ever needs such thick and wide walls. Notice the fine rock handwork and earth fill in. It would serve no other purpose except for a gathering.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Quinan Bear]

Yes I agree, not a coral. Has the center been checked with Earth Penetrating Radar? could be a shaft below? It would take many hours of study, just to figure that out so all we can do really is speculate.

I like the pics and the subject and do have interest in these things and have looked at many life styles of people throughout the ages. The begining of mankind to present, is a good subject to have some knowledge of. But, it is just as important to learn about the begining to present of the Earth as well. These two subjects are needed to understand how signs,markers and symbols of BOTH Man and Mother Earth, use by them to show you where the precious minerals could be found.
The cross is a good symbol to use to understand this conection. The cross represents a place of congregation. A place where you go to see what is most precious. The place to look for, if your looking for precious metals is where you see "The finger of God". A congregation of faults or bedrocks.

 

[Quinan Bear]

To All;

I have reread my posts and it seams that I may have announced my in-tensions in a way that insinuates that I want to take an opportunity away from those that have searched and researched these Stones. So, if you will permit me? I will try to put this the way I intended.

I have searched, researched, studied and analyzed (in my own way) the Peralta Stone maps. I believe strongly, that I am on to something real. I am not interested in the mines or their contents ( a souvenir or two would be nice). I am in search of someone with stern integrity and honor, in whom I can trust in completing the task of documenting these areas ( not to disturb them) and record the journey. A person or persons that will follow state laws, acquire the necessary permits if needed and to do this upon my behalf but as equal partners in the discovery.

Here is a little about me ;
I come from a small village, set back in the woods about 23 miles from the nearest town. We grew up, traveling the woods gathering berries,herbs,plants,fish and meat for the year. As the seasons changed the land changed and I was told how to read the land. I was taught the ways of the native people. You see, I am a Metis in the eyes of the government, but a true man of the earth. I have studied geology,volcanism,plants,rocks,gems,mountain formation....etc... many things that have to do with life itself, including Nature.
I would appreciate anyone's help in aiding me or to find someone who will. If you have any questions or want to know more? ask and I will try to help as much as I can, but the maps speak for themselves.
I also have knowledge that may help you all out as well .




Now that that's out of the way, let's continue

 

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco;

No, I have not found any ball court to say, but I have found ruins. May I point out, that if there is a ball court ? there would not be a mine or vault near by. Well If it were I? the gold and mines, would be far from a place where many people gather to play a game. I would have the mine and vault at least a mile away.

QUESTION?
Have you considered that idea that this "ball court" is not that at all, but a coral or even the foundation of another type structure.? (just I thought)
Did you all get my file for the stone overlays? Speak up if you didn't or if you want it. thanks.

I don't see a ball court. I believe that if it were a ball court then the walls would be slanted in towards each other. This way the people could all see better. This place looks more similar to a water tank or food storage or a coral. These places are built where a large population lives. A large group would need lots of food (could include animals) and water and in order to acomplish this in times of drought. you would need a place of storage.

Water most likely was kept in undrground reservoirs, Animals would be kept in corals and food in cold cellars or underground like the water.

Hola amigo Quinan Bear,

First, you are mistaken in thinking that because a ball court is located in a particular spot, that a mine would not be located near by, even right under it. Mines are located where the minerals are found, and ball courts like all man-made structures are built wherever man gets a notion to build them, without necessarily taking into account any minerals which might be there. Gold is where you find it amigo.

Next, our mutual amigo Don Jose de la Mancha has already addressed your proposition of the ball court perhaps being a livestock corral; I would add only that the ancient Amerindians were not herding livestock into corrals as cattle, sheep and horses were all introduced by European explorers and colonists. Do not make the mistake of using modern Western (American) logic to decide how a ball court ought to be constructed, ancient Amerindians had quite different ideas of how they should be built and different purposes for the "game" too - it was not simply a sport for the entertainment of the masses! In some cultures, the losers of the "game" were sacrificed or executed; in others, the WINNERs were the sacrificial victims; the logic being that to be sacrificed was a very high honor, so you see our "modern" logic flies right out the window when dealing with ancient Amerindians.

As for locating a VAULT - well, think about other ancient Amerindian ruins; have not many of them been found to have secret, buried vaults and chambers? Some obviously were tombs, others......? I would point out that in virtually every case where it has been explored, ancient pyramids in the Americas have been found to have secret tombs/chambers/vaults deep inside them, or even deep beneath them! Some were built literally on top of natural caves or caverns too!

Like several have tried to tell you amigo, you see we have heard all this before, you are not the first. You need something more than satellite photos amigo, in my opinion a sample of the ORE is the key piece of evidence but you are un-willing to make that trip to get samples so unfortunately some of us (like me) will remain un-convinced that you have it all figured out.

***For our readers, I would point out that the post from our amigo Quinan Bear on mineral deposits is incorrect. The agent which is responsible for the great majority of metallic mineral deposits is water, not volcanic rock; volcanic <igneous> rock is notoriously poor for metallic minerals. Gold, silver, copper etc are dissolved deep in the earth by extremely hot waters under tremendous pressures; as these mineral-rich waters circulate beneath the surface, faults, cracks and voids are found and these waters are forced upwards into the voids. As it rises into the voids, it loses pressure and cools, which results in the water suddenly not being able to carry the minerals in a dissolved state and they are deposited in the voids. This is how metallic minerals are deposited amigos, not by melted rocks flowing or twisting and then cooling, these form very different types of rock such as basalt, which is not a good ore of any metallic mineral. There are many good books on geology and prospecting, some are online free just do a search on Google books.***

To All;

I have reread my posts and it seams that I may have announced my in-tensions in a way that insinuates that I want to take an opportunity away from those that have searched and researched these Stones. So, if you will permit me? I will try to put this the way I intended.

I have searched, researched, studied and analyzed (in my own way) the Peralta Stone maps. I believe strongly, that I am on to something real. I am not interested in the mines or their contents ( a souvenir or two would be nice). I am in search of someone with stern integrity and honor, in whom I can trust in completing the task of documenting these areas ( not to disturb them) and record the journey. A person or persons that will follow state laws, acquire the necessary permits if needed and to do this upon my behalf but as equal partners in the discovery.

Here is a little about me ;
I come from a small village, set back in the woods about 23 miles from the nearest town. We grew up, traveling the woods gathering berries,herbs,plants,fish and meat for the year. As the seasons changed the land changed and I was told how to read the land. I was taught the ways of the native people. You see, I am a Metis in the eyes of the government, but a true man of the earth. I have studied geology,volcanism,plants,rocks,gems,mountain formation....etc... many things that have to do with life itself, including Nature.
I would appreciate anyone's help in aiding me or to find someone who will. If you have any questions or want to know more? ask and I will try to help as much as I can, but the maps speak for themselves.
I also have knowledge that may help you all out as well .




Now that that's out of the way, let's continue

This is called "bird-dogging" amigo, and surely you will find someone or several whom are happy to do your leg-work for you. Some of us are not able to nor willing to however, for obvious reasons.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[BenThereDoneThat]

To All;

I have reread my posts and it seams that I may have announced my in-tensions in a way that insinuates that I want to take an opportunity away from those that have searched and researched these Stones. So, if you will permit me? I will try to put this the way I intended.

I have searched, researched, studied and analyzed (in my own way) the Peralta Stone maps. I believe strongly, that I am on to something real. I am not interested in the mines or their contents ( a souvenir or two would be nice). I am in search of someone with stern integrity and honor, in whom I can trust in completing the task of documenting these areas ( not to disturb them) and record the journey. A person or persons that will follow state laws, acquire the necessary permits if needed and to do this upon my behalf but as equal partners in the discovery.

Here is a little about me ;
I come from a small village, set back in the woods about 23 miles from the nearest town. We grew up, traveling the woods gathering berries,herbs,plants,fish and meat for the year. As the seasons changed the land changed and I was told how to read the land. I was taught the ways of the native people. You see, I am a Metis in the eyes of the government, but a true man of the earth. I have studied geology,volcanism,plants,rocks,gems,mountain formation....etc... many things that have to do with life itself, including Nature.
I would appreciate anyone's help in aiding me or to find someone who will. If you have any questions or want to know more? ask and I will try to help as much as I can, but the maps speak for themselves.
I also have knowledge that may help you all out as well .




Now that that's out of the way, let's continue

Now had you started out that way I would have joined in on the discussion (and maybe a hike or two to check your theory's) rather then just sit in the background and laugh at the side show.

 

[ghostdog]

David ,even though my last post was mostly tongue/in cheek 75%, I do respect imformation you have posted , and believe you have pinpointed some positive viable search locations.Put together a notebook/application, and send it to Scott Woods for permit approveal. You definetly have done the legwork,even if from afar,and you deserve to search. If denied put a petition together, with signature supporters,I will sign also,and try ,try again...Geranimo is waiting in the clouds, your friend , Jon

 

[Quinan Bear]

Ghostdog;

Thanks for the post. I am still working on it my friend

I think that if this does happen for me? Geronimo will have alot more to do with it, then you may realise. lol (inside joke) .


Oroblanco;

If you read my post I did mention a penatence area for the guilty.

you said;
***For our readers, I would point out that the post from our amigo Quinan Bear on mineral deposits is incorrect. The agent which is responsible for the great majority of metallic mineral deposits is water, not volcanic rock; volcanic <igneous> rock is notoriously poor for metallic minerals. Gold, silver, copper etc are dissolved deep in the earth by extremely hot waters under tremendous pressures; as these mineral-rich waters circulate beneath the surface, faults, cracks and voids are found and these waters are forced upwards into the voids. As it rises into the voids, it loses pressure and cools, which results in the water suddenly not being able to carry the minerals in a dissolved state and they are deposited in the voids. This is how metallic minerals are deposited amigos, not by melted rocks flowing or twisting and then cooling, these form very different types of rock such as basalt, which is not a good ore of any metallic mineral. There are many good books on geology and prospecting, some are online free just do a search on Google books.***

I have one statement to make; These minerals would have to already have been on the earth's crust in order for the water to be able to do what you just stated? Your discription is only of one way that gold is found on the earth but not the only way.

 

[Cubfan64]

*sits back with a bag of popcorn to watch the fun with TJ*

 

[Quinan Bear]

This is one of those "What came first" kinda question but here is my reply, just in case you don't understand my version? Here is something I found that will do just fine.


How Is Gold Formed
"How is Gold Formed Gold, like all other soupcon in the universe heavier other than lithium, is created in stars, by the process of nuclear fusion. Though, the turn of irregular elements varies according to their atomic number. Smidge* lighter than iron are formed by "helium capture" fusion, where nuclei capture a helium-4 sprig and fuse with it into a greater elment. For example, a carbon-12 nucleus could collide with helium-4 and produce oxygen-16 and energy. The iron nucleus is more thoroughly bound than any other nucleus,
and so there is basically "no room" for the helium-4 to fuse with it. Smidge* besides than iron are formed by neutron capture, or s-process, fusion. In this type of fusion, nuclei pinch stray neutrons -- it is called s-wrap as it happens much slower too helium capture. This process is pious for all elements from array to bismuth, like blonde. Rudiments heavier than bismuth are thought to be formed in supernovae, indefinitely long period pressures and temperatures are much higher exclusive of possible in a just polar star"


Gold is formed as the result of molten rock, called magma,
being intruded into solid rock. As the magma cools and
solidifies, water and other volatile substances separate
out from the magma under high pressure. The high pressure
of hot water and steam force open fissures in the
surrounding solid rock, through which these hydrothermal
solutions travel. When the hydrothermal solutions cool,
deposition of material occurs, especially quartz in the
form of quartz veins.

Because gold has a relatively low melting temperature, it
is sometimes carried by these hydrothermal solutions through
the fissures in the rock and solidifies inside the quartz
veins. Thus, the place to look for gold is usually in
quartz veins near the intrusion of a magma body. One example
is the so-called Mother Lode of the Sierra Nevada in
California. If these quartz veins are eroded, the gold
may be found in streams and rivers; this explains why
the 49-ers of the last century were able to pan for gold
in the foothills of the Sierra Nevada.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

------------5th------------------- While it lasts.

Don Jose de la Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

Quinan Bear wrote

Gold is formed as the result of molten rock, called magma,
being intruded into solid rock. As the magma cools and
solidifies, water and other volatile substances separate
out from the magma under high pressure. The high pressure
of hot water and steam force open fissures in the
surrounding solid rock, through which these hydrothermal
solutions travel. When the hydrothermal solutions cool,
deposition of material occurs, especially quartz in the
form of quartz veins.

The "magma" generally has no gold and this whole post is somewhat deceptive amigo. It is partially right however. There are unusual gold deposits which may fit this description, like the famous South African mines, but it is - unusual - not the normal. Water is the key, quartz is the host; the quartz is deposited by the actions of water, not magma. As you are a prospector, you know this - you don't waste time and money getting samples of lava rock to have them assayed.

Are you aware that several geologic studies have been done on the Superstition Wilderness? Some are online (free) if you are interested. The basic geology of most of the Superstitions is volcanic igneous rock, not the most promising type of geology for finding gold or silver deposits. In fact only one test out of a number, done by govt actually showed indications of a large gold deposit, and also mentioned that it is likely "deeply buried".

You would probably know this if you did some prospecting IN the Superstitions of course, however after a few dozen sample pans turned up crap you might just decide to look elsewhere for gold. Don't get me wrong though. There IS gold in the Superstitions, but finding it is the trick.

I am surprised that you also didn't address the "Templar Knight" which can be seen from the highways. Are you sure you would not like to make the trip and spend some "boots on the ground" time there?

Don Jose, el gringo de la Mancha wrote

------------5th------------------- While it lasts.

Don Jose de la Mancha

Ah-HA! Taking the fifth eh amigo? Well then what is a suspicious mind to conclude?

I think I will join those whom are sitting back with the popcorn. No ore sample, no cigar, this time.
Oroblanco

 

[Quinan Bear]

Oroblanco;

I will say that you are right about the water being ONE of the most popular ways of gold forming. Is it not posible that a vein as rich as the LDM's or other mines listed on the Stones are from that rare time when gold is found amongst vocanic rock?

I recall something about gold being from a wide 18 inch vein of 80% gold. In a place where no miner would think to look.

Although I could exchange thoughts on how gold is formed. It's not something I will butt heads on with you. I have a different way of putting my knowledge to pratice, compared to you. Now you have the advantage of being there but it don't mean that my method is any better then yours or that either one of us has the right solution.
I believe in what I know. I will prove it when I show you the heart stone but that will not be shown anytime soon. I never even showed this place to Scott yet. I'm going to sit on this one for just a while longer. Gold has also been found in granite around vocanic rocks, just so you know.

 

[Oroblanco]

Oroblanco;

I will say that you are right about the water being ONE of the most popular ways of gold forming. Is it not posible that a vein as rich as the LDM's or other mines listed on the Stones are from that rare time when gold is found amongst vocanic rock?

I recall something about gold being from a wide 18 inch vein of 80% gold. In a place where no miner would think to look.

Although I could exchange thoughts on how gold is formed. It's not something I will butt heads on with you. I have a different way of putting my knowledge to pratice, compared to you. Now you have the advantage of being there but it don't mean that my method is any better then yours or that either one of us has the right solution.
I believe in what I know. I will prove it when I show you the heart stone but that will not be shown anytime soon. I never even showed this place to Scott yet. I'm going to sit on this one for just a while longer. Gold has also been found in granite around vocanic rocks, just so you know.

Hola amigo,

I don't mean to pick nits here buddy, but I don't live there. I live in South Dakota, about 1000 miles as the crow flies from the Superstitions. It is not too handy for me to get there. I have done a fair bit of prospecting in the Superstitions and looking for the Lost Dutchman there but don't live close enough to just trot up there any time I feel like it.

One more thing amigo, the gold sold by Jacob Waltz and the specimens purported to have come from his mine are quartz host with gold in it, large particles of gold in large quartz particles, generally white in color. If you would just read over some of the other threads here on T-net you would find photos of it. It is not gold in granite or some other exotic ore type, it is a common type if uncommonly rich. This ore doesn't match up with any other known ore, which is not to say that it is made of kryptonite, only that it is not a match; all gold ores are different. The other mines of the Superstitions are mainly legendary, no known ore to compare any sample with, not even descriptions. We could say the Apache Jack ore and the Joe Deering ores could be at least compared since we have a description in these cases, for folks have seen these ores and left us fair descriptions if no photos. Showing me the Heart stone is not what I have been asking for, and won't prove anything either way to me.

I did not mean to discourage you Quinan Bear - just because I am not convinced does not mean you are wrong, only that one person was not convinced. If you are going to give up just because someone on the internet was not convinced, then you will not make it through the permit process for you will have to convince folks whom are more skeptical than I am, for sure. I think you should pursue your idea, just hope you will either go to the Superstitions or get a partner to do the legwork. Good luck and good hunting to you Quinan Bear, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[The "magma" generally has no gold and this whole post is somewhat deceptive amigo. It is partially right however. There are unusual gold deposits which may fit this description, like the famous South African mines, but it is - unusual - not the normal.]

While I have always maintained, truthfully, that I don't know $#It about rocks, I have to agree with David......in this case. The gold fields of California are a direct result of "magma". Jacob Waltz's description of his mine/vein is a perfect description of a chimney deposit. In the Superstitions, the most likely cause for such a formation, IMHO, would be molten rock working its way through cracks in the earth and finding its way to the surface in an outcropping.

The same action that brings the gold to the surface, can also bring quartz, silver and other metals along with it. It would not be unusual for this type of formation to include silver sulfide ore, with a vertical zonation of gold and silver. The upper portions of this formation are generally much richer/concentrated with the gold and silver.

I believe that is the exact scenario for the pit mine that many believe to be the LDM, including Jesse Feldman. The arguments for against that premise can be found here:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1122

Take care,

Joe

 

[Quinan Bear]

Oroblanco;

So let me get this straight.....

You tell me that I need to convince a sceptic.
To show proof or something that will convince them.
To get a partner to help do the leg work.

How am I to do that without showing my findings? So you really want me to post it up in here for all to see? hope that the right people see it and do something about it? or someone else to see it and go take what is there? You must see the my position.
I have shown you two stone maps and "1" way to see what they show (not the only way). I am not about to lay all my cards on the table yet.

So what should I do?

 

[Oroblanco]

Hola amigos,

Roy,

[The "magma" generally has no gold and this whole post is somewhat deceptive amigo. It is partially right however. There are unusual gold deposits which may fit this description, like the famous South African mines, but it is - unusual - not the normal.]

While I have always maintained, truthfully, that I don't know $#It about rocks, I have to agree with David......in this case. The gold fields of California are a direct result of "magma". Jacob Waltz's description of his mine/vein is a perfect description of a chimney deposit. In the Superstitions, the most likely cause for such a formation, IMHO, would be molten rock working its way through cracks in the earth and finding its way to the surface in an outcropping.

The same action that brings the gold to the surface, can also bring quartz, silver and other metals along with it. It would not be unusual for this type of formation to include silver sulfide ore, with a vertical zonation of gold and silver. The upper portions of this formation are generally much richer/concentrated with the gold and silver.

I believe that is the exact scenario for the pit mine that many believe to be the LDM, including Jesse Feldman. The arguments for against that premise can be found here:

http://www.thelostdutchmangoldmine.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1122

Take care,

Joe

Well I must respectfully disagree amigo, magma is not generally an ore of gold, silver, or any other metal. Wiki has a bit on it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magma#Composition
The Mother Lode region of CA is not a large mass of gold-bearing magma, the gold deposits followed any volcanic <igneous> deposits. Quartz, the 'mother of gold' is not deposited as molten rock, it is in an aqueous solution. The great majority of CA gold deposits are quartz in origins, as are most of AZ's and most other western states.

I also respectfully disagree that pit mine is the LDM, which we have covered before.

Actually for me, it would not matter if I found a rich gold/silver mine and it was not the Lost Dutchman, for I would have a rich gold/silver mine! What is in a name, after all? Fame and fortune? If a guy has the fortune, who cares about the fame?

Quinan Bear wrote

Oroblanco;

So let me get this straight.....

You tell me that I need to convince a sceptic.
To show proof or something that will convince them.
To get a partner to help do the leg work.

How am I to do that without showing my findings? So you really want me to post it up in here for all to see? hope that the right people see it and do something about it? or someone else to see it and go take what is there? You must see the my position.
I have shown you two stone maps and "1" way to see what they show (not the only way). I am not about to lay all my cards on the table yet.

So what should I do?

Don't you already have several people in contact with you, whom are ready, willing and able to do the necessary leg work? I sure would not tell you to post everything you have here, unless you want someone else (who is probably not posting) to run in and grab what ever there is to grab. Most of our amigos here are pretty honest folks (don't trust ME however, ) BUT there are others who lurk and watch for anything that they could use to get ahead of you. <Phishing I guess some call it> Only post what you are comfortable posting, and with the knowledge that some dishonest folks will be reading every word.

Now dang it where is my popcorn, sure didn't intend on blathering on quite so much.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy, my friend,

You are correct in stating that magma is not generally an ore of gold, silver, or any other metal. That is also true of California. However, that is not what I said. I did however state: [The gold fields of California are a direct result of "magma".]

You should have read farther down in your article to:

"Geology
Main article: Gold in California

Gold-bearing magma rising after being subducted under the continental crustGlobal forces operating over hundreds of millions of years resulted in the large concentration of gold in California. Only gold that is concentrated can be economically recovered. Some 400 million years ago, California lay at the bottom of a large sea; underwater volcanoes deposited lava and minerals (including gold) onto the sea floor. Beginning about 200 million years ago, tectonic pressure forced the sea floor beneath the American continental mass.[129] As it sank, or subducted, below today's California, the sea floor melted into very large molten masses (magma). This hot magma forced its way upward under what is now California, cooling as it rose,[130] and as it solidified, veins of gold formed within fields of quartz.[130][131] These minerals and rocks came to the surface of the Sierra Nevada,[132] and eroded. The exposed gold was carried downstream by water and gathered in quiet gravel beds along the sides of old rivers and streams.[133] The forty-niners first focused their efforts on these deposits of gold, which had been gathered in the gravel beds by hundreds of millions of years of geologic action.[134][135]"

Take care,

Joe