The Peralta Stones

[Oroblanco]

 

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[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

"The fact that I have found, and own Tayopa, is another story."

What have the authorities allowed you to do with the mine thus far? Have any pictures from inside? That would be interesting to see. Will you be mining anytime soon?

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

One tequila
Two tequila
Three tequila

FLOOR!

Then, just step on over him!!!


B

Who IS that who said "don't you know sarcasm when you hear it" - I think it was Lucy, from Charlie Brown.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy and Don Jose,

Is there a historical document that confirms a Jesuit/Dutch plot, or is it all rumor? Can you give me a little background/history on the plot?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Roy and Don Jose,

Is there a historical document that confirms a Jesuit/Dutch plot, or is it all rumor? Can you give me a little background/history on the plot?

Thanks,

Joe

Hey Joe,

While I have heard about it from more than one source, there is no documentary evidence to back it up.

The story goes that the Jesuits were fed up with how the Spanish were managing the New World. Raping and pillaging people and natural resources. They were supposed to have been working behind the scenes to hand over the New World to the Dutch, who would have been better overlords than the Spanish.

Like I said, I have written the University of Leiden (Netherlands) about the subject and am waiting for a response.

Best-Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Evening Joe: Gully wheezer posted --> there is no documentary evidence to back it up.
==============

Shall we say no readily ´available´ written data, ¿but ----?
******************************************************************************************************************

Gully wheezer you posted --> the story goes that the Jesuits were fed up with how the Spanish were managing the New World.
===============

Actually ORO provided the correct answer, they saw their order being cut down in other parts / countries, so decided to work with the Dutch to keep a foot hold in the new world..
******************************************************************************************************************

Joe you ask ---> What have the authorities allowed you to do with the mine thus far? Have any pictures from inside? That would be interesting to see. Will you be mining anytime soon?

A) Nothing yet, but I am not pushing very hard, just setting things up.

B) Tayopa is still completely closed up. It will remain that way until both I, and the authorities are ready to move. There will be no premature
activity. Once I make a positive move, the entire area will know and try for a piece of the pie. I have to be completely protected by then. A simple mining claim title isn´t sufficient with a treasure.

C) I probably will never mine Tayopa, but will go after the three large deposits.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Thanks Mike.

I have seen the story in a number of places as well. Each and every time, where they don't admit that the plot was nothing more than a rumor, the author has an axe to grind.....Jesuit wise. It was a rumor to discredit the Jesuits, but the king himself gave it no credence.

In order to suggest that the Jesuits were involved in mining and hoarding vast treasures, you must first attack their character and historical record. Any Jesuit historian who does not confess that the order was guilty, becomes a liar. That means all of them.

IMHO, you must look at both sides of the coin to determine it's authenticity. There are plenty of treasure hunters who will look at the "bad Jesuit" side. No doubt it existed, but the good side far outweighed the bad.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Don Jose,

Thanks for your reply.

Sounds like they are waiting for you to.......expire.

Your comments on the Jesuit/Dutch plot, are typical of the story:

[Shall we say no readily ´available´ written data, ¿but ----?] and [they saw their order being cut down in other parts / countries, so decided to work with the Dutch to keep a foot hold in the new world.]

Where is the evidence for either bit of conjecture? All story and no substance. My Superstition treasure story has more "evidence" to sink your historical teeth into than this rumor.

It seems difficult to prove.....either way. That being said, I don't believe it should be presented as historical "fact".

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA Cactusjumper and everyone,

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy and Don Jose,

Is there a historical document that confirms a Jesuit/Dutch plot, or is it all rumor? Can you give me a little background/history on the plot?

Thanks,

Joe

As far as I know, no - no documentary evidence to support this "rumor". I would not be too quick to dismiss it however, when you look at the historical background - it is clear that the Society of Jesus was on shaky ground in Spanish America by 1765, having seen them thrown out of all Portuguese dominions in '59 and all French dominions in 64-5 (it took a while for such a vast region so some were not expelled until '65) so it would be perfectly logical for someone in the higher ranks of the Order to be at least sounding out the possibilities with other powers. We could also note that on their official suppression by the Pope, that Prussia and Russia became safe-havens for them, and consider that Prussia was very much Protestant and Russia really Eastern Orthodox, not Roman Catholic - very odd places for Roman Catholic Jesuits to be 'hiding out' if you think about it.

Joe sometimes I get the impression you tend to see things more in "black and white" as in your expression of "good Jesuits, bad Jesuits" when this may not be the most accurate way to describe the situation. Who would ever accuse Father Kino of evil, for instance; on the other hand who would stand by every action of say Father Keller? In an organization the size of the Society of Jesus, which certainly did get involved in politics in many lands (resulting in a series of expulsions) we ought not be surprised to find, even at quite high levels within the Order, some amount of "conspiracy" or political plotting even a plan to betray a whole colonial domain to a different nation. The Society of Jesus and its members held loyalty to God and their leader far above any petty state or monarchical family. It has been repeatedly pointed out how Jesuit padres worked to protect their "flocks" of Amerindians against the "evil" Spaniards and Portuguese who sought to enslave and exploit them; would it be SO far-fetched to consider that some Jesuits may have looked to the Dutch as possibly LESS evil colonial powers? I could be mis-interpreting how you are viewing things, if so then my apologies for making assumptions.

The most interesting 'leads' that I found concerning this plot were the relations between the Dutch and the Jesuits in the Far East, where the Dutch saw their national interests lay, far more so than in the Americas. As I said, thus far I haven't found any document which would prove this plot, but it is interesting; at times these two parties were antagonistic toward each other, again at other times they appear to have been downright cordial. It is also factual that Dutch pirates (or privateers, depending on the view) did operate in the 'Spanish lake' and even in the Sea of Cortez without any obvious port of call where they could safely land, buy provisions, get fresh water, make repairs etc; also these same Dutch pirates did raid Catholic missions along the coast, yet seem to have (mostly) missed hitting the Jesuit missions. This activity of course is a century before our period we are discussing, but curious when we talk of a plot.

Even if we cannot find a single document this would not DIS-prove that a plot was not in the works, for it is likely that this type of agreement would not get committed to paper and ink, and in those rare instances where a secret plot IS written down, those papers are not made public, and are the type which are quick to "catch fire" when there is danger of being discovered.

If I do run across a document which would prove this plot to be factual, I will share it.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

PS - <Danged brain fart again> whoops forgot to add, that this Dutch-Jesuit plot may well be linked to the popular uprisings in Spain itself in which the Jesuits were implicated. If they were supporting a popular revolt against the King of Spain (not PROVEN of course) then it would not be a large step for them to be supportive of turning over the Spanish colonies to another state.

I suppose I could excuse this by claiming it was that darned advanced case of senility setting in, but some will point out that would be exaggerating the onset quite a bit.
Oroblanco

 

[AZDreamer]

Has there been any recent scientific examination of the stones to determine if they have been altered since their creation?

 

[gollum]

Thanks Mike.

I have seen the story in a number of places as well. Each and every time, where they don't admit that the plot was nothing more than a rumor, the author has an axe to grind.....Jesuit wise. It was a rumor to discredit the Jesuits, but the king himself gave it no credence.

In order to suggest that the Jesuits were involved in mining and hoarding vast treasures, you must first attack their character and historical record. Any Jesuit historian who does not confess that the order was guilty, becomes a liar. That means all of them.

IMHO, you must look at both sides of the coin to determine it's authenticity. There are plenty of treasure hunters who will look at the "bad Jesuit" side. No doubt it existed, but the good side far outweighed the bad.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

Your post isn't entirely correct. I have come, over the years, to the conclusion that the Jesuit Fathers' daily jobs in maintaining the missions was a job that took up most of their time.

I have said this time and again: If you take the time to research KNOWN history (things that are absolutely known for a fact to be true beyond any doubt), you can tell a lot about actual possibilities of the different unsubstantiated stories.

In that light, if you take the time to read all the accounts of everyday mission life on the frontier, you will see that the average Jesuit Father really didn't have the time to supervise or work at any mining activities. In Father Polzer's "Rules and Precepts of Jesuit Missions in Northwestern New Spain" the Fathers had very strenuous requirements to do EVERY day. Something like mining would have taken up much too much time. It would have also meant one of two things:

1. Many Jesuits (German Jesuits in particular) have openly admitted to committing the sin of breaking their vows of obedience by going against ecclesiastical precepts against mining or having either direct or indirect knowledge of mining.

2. Jesuit Hierarchy lied in all their dealing with the crown, when they made deals and agreed not to engage in mining activities in return for free reign in Pimeria Alta.

If you actually read books by and about Colonial Jesuit Life, you will find that Jesuits were masters at finding and exploiting loopholes in the rules they were obliged to live by. Back to my beliefs about Jesuit Mining:

The biggest loophole may have been left by the King of Spain who did not know the makeup of the Jesuit Order. While the Jesuit Fathers themselves may have been restricted from mining activities, there is a portion of the Order that was under no such restriction. I give you THE JESUIT COADJUTOR. The coadjutor IS, more or less, a civilian who has professed his allegiance to the Jesuit Order. These men are free to conduct businesses for profit. They could own mines. They could hold public office. They could be members of the military and police. They could do anything they wanted as long as they remembered they owed their allegiance to the Order of Jesus. Do you know why I think the King of Spain didn't know about the makeup of the Jesuit Order? Here's why: When the King had all the Jesuits arrested during the night of 25-26 June 1767, ONLY the Jesuit Fathers were arrested! Not one person who wasn't a Jesuit Father was arrested. If Charles III had been on the ball, he would have had spies watching the Order and learning about their true relationships with officials and military types they dealt with. He would have known that the Jesuit Order consisted of more than just the Fathers.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Has there been any recent scientific examination of the stones to determine if they have been altered since their creation?

AZDreamer,

That might be impossible. At least two of the stone maps are copies.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Joe sometimes I get the impression you tend to see things more in "black and white"..."

"IMHO, you must look at both sides of the coin to determine it's authenticity. There are plenty of treasure hunters who will look at the "bad Jesuit" side. No doubt it existed, but the good side far outweighed the bad."

My argument has never been "black and white". I believe I have always maintained that the Jesuits, in the final analysis, were just human. I just don't believe they did anything that included extensive mining. Mexico is my only frame of reference here.

[Even if we cannot find a single document this would not DIS-prove that a plot was not in the works, for it is likely that this type of agreement would not get committed to paper and ink, and in those rare instances where a secret plot IS written down, those papers are not made public, and are the type which are quick to "catch fire" when there is danger of being discovered.]

What I would be looking for, is contemporaneous writings from other than Jesuit historians. Considering the enemies that the Jesuit's of the period had, it seems a no brainer that such historical writings would exist. What we get is rumors and suggestions, much like the arguments that you and Mike present here.

The fact that you are both pre-disposed to Jesuit treasure beliefs colors your opinions. I was once a believer as well. I have looked at both sides of the coin and came down on the Jesuit side of the debate.

Until such treasure is presented for authentication, I will remain sceptical.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Roy,

"Joe sometimes I get the impression you tend to see things more in "black and white"..."

"IMHO, you must look at both sides of the coin to determine it's authenticity. There are plenty of treasure hunters who will look at the "bad Jesuit" side. No doubt it existed, but the good side far outweighed the bad."

My argument has never been "black and white". I believe I have always maintained that the Jesuits, in the final analysis, were just human. I just don't believe they did anything that included extensive mining. Mexico is my only frame of reference here.

[Even if we cannot find a single document this would not DIS-prove that a plot was not in the works, for it is likely that this type of agreement would not get committed to paper and ink, and in those rare instances where a secret plot IS written down, those papers are not made public, and are the type which are quick to "catch fire" when there is danger of being discovered.]

What I would be looking for, is contemporaneous writings from other than Jesuit historians. Considering the enemies that the Jesuit's of the period had, it seems a no brainer that such historical writings would exist. What we get is rumors and suggestions, much like the arguments that you and Mike present here.

The fact that you are both pre-disposed to Jesuit treasure beliefs colors your opinions. I was once a believer as well. I have looked at both sides of the coin and came down on the Jesuit side of the debate.

Until such treasure is presented for authentication, I will remain sceptical.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,

The best evidence that the Jesuits were up to something akin to what they were being accused of can only be found (so far for me) in a letter from the Marquis D'Ossun. After the Jesuit expulsion, he was granted an audience with King Charles III. In a letter to the French Crown he states that King Charles personally told him:

He swore that he had no personal feelings against the Jesuits, and until the most recent plot, had declined on several occasions to adopt counsels adverse to their interests. He had in this way disregarded the warnings of faithful servants, who had told him how, since 1759 the Religious had not ceased to revile his Government, defame his character, and even to question the sincerity of his religious faith; and had replied (to these faithful servants) that he believed them to be prejudiced and misinformed. The insurrection of 1766 had, however, opened his eyes, for he was certain that the Jesuits had fomented it, and had proofs that it was so, since several members of the Society had been arrested while distributing money to groups (of rioters)......

If those charges were indeed true, then it makes the story very believable. It also gives the reason for the Jesuit Suppression.

If you read about the Portuguese suppression of the Jesuits, you will find they were found to be doing the exact same thing; fomenting rebellion against the Crown. And while I haven't researched too deeply the Jesuit Suppression by the French, I believe you will find the same thing again.

..............and in England, there is always the Gunpowder Plot of 1605. This seems to have been a trend for the Order during the Colonial Period.

Best-Mike

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Evening Joe: Gully wheezer posted --> there is no documentary evidence to back it up.
==============

Shall we say no readily ´available´ written data, ¿but ----?
******************************************************************************************************************

Gully wheezer you posted --> the story goes that the Jesuits were fed up with how the Spanish were managing the New World.
===============

Actually ORO provided the correct answer, they saw their order being cut down in other parts / countries, so decided to work with the Dutch to keep a foot hold in the new world..
******************************************************************************************************************

Joe you ask ---> What have the authorities allowed you to do with the mine thus far? Have any pictures from inside? That would be interesting to see. Will you be mining anytime soon?

A) Nothing yet, but I am not pushing very hard, just setting things up.

B) Tayopa is still completely closed up. It will remain that way until both I, and the authorities are ready to move. There will be no premature
activity. Once I make a positive move, the entire area will know and try for a piece of the pie. I have to be completely protected by then. A simple mining claim title isn´t sufficient with a treasure.

C) I probably will never mine Tayopa, but will go after the three large deposits.


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Cactusjumper wrote

What I would be looking for, is contemporaneous writings from other than Jesuit historians. Considering the enemies that the Jesuit's of the period had, it seems a no brainer that such historical writings would exist. What we get is rumors and suggestions, much like the arguments that you and Mike present here.

The fact that you are both pre-disposed to Jesuit treasure beliefs colors your opinions. I was once a believer as well. I have looked at both sides of the coin and came down on the Jesuit side of the debate.

Until such treasure is presented for authentication, I will remain sceptical.

I am not stating that NO incriminating documents dying the Dutch to the Jesuits exist, just that it is unlikely. The class of documents you have just alluded to, those from the "enemies" of the Jesuits (they seem to have viewed anyone who opposed them in any way as "enemies") are the same type a Jesuit apologist would insist that we throw out because it IS from the their "enemies". Kind of a catch-22, a great defense for a Jesuit apologist. Many a criminal has tried a similar strategy in court, with not so good results.

You also have reached the conclusion that Mike and I are "predisposed" to Jesuit treasure beliefs, which is your own conclusion. I never lock the door on historical questions, and for some time accepted and believed the Jesuit apologists version of events. <Conrotto included a fair summation of their dismissal of any and all claims of ever being involved in any mines or treasures> The "school of treasure hunting" is rather like a roller coaster, at least if a fellow keeps an open mind to possibilities and probabilities, and is willing to look at all the evidence he can find before jumping to any conclusions. I only rejected the Jesuit version on reviewing the records and finding new "tidbits" that should not be there if there never were any mines or treasures.

Jesuit instigators were implicated in uprisings in Japan, resulting in their being expelled from the empire of the Rising Sun. Some of the padres managed to stay by dressing in disguises and sending Spanish sailors in their places, dressed in monks robes. Even after being rounded up again and shipped out, some slipped back in. This has little bearing on their activities in Mexico and Arizona, but is indicative of how they would operate under "hostile" conditions. The Spanish king failed to include those "lay brothers" of which we have no hard numbers in Spanish America. Those lay brothers are the men whom would have been in charge of mining, smelting and smuggling. As far as I know, no diary has ever been found of one of these non-priest members of the Society of Jesus from the colonial frontier and made public.

I don't know a good way to tie this back in to our subject matter, other than to say that IF the Peralta stones were made by Jesuits, then I would guess the makers would not have been priests but rather lay brothers and-or neophytes (native Amerindians studying to become priests under the padres at the various missions) as the neophytes in particular we are indebted to for preserving the archive of Jesuit records from frontier Sonora that we DO have.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[Oroblanco]

bump <just trying to keep this from sliding off the page>

 

[Quinan Bear]

These Stones show maps of mines,dwellings,smelting area and a Storage vault, as well as a treasure that was hid under an overhanging cliff, that was full of church reliquaries. All these places are north of Weever's needle.

The priest stone says, "Look for the map,Look for the land formation". The features in the map, can be seen in the land. All it is, is a big loop and ends up at a convergences of rock and two fault zones.

The Horse map, is also made from what is seen in the land formation. The ring (circle inside of circle) above the hores's mane is the location of the Vault. The line coming from head nose area, is the location of the church treasure. The "5" with the 5 dots around it, is a land formation and the dots around it are peaks, The two rings below the line and above the river line, are mines.

The Trail stones are maps, yes. but made in a way, that you need to use the bottom stone to see where to get to. The top Stone is a map that shows you what you will see around the area once you get there. The heart stones (two), each showing something else. (1) just shows the land formation that the mine is on. (2) showsall the formations,mines,dwellings,smelting area and the gold Cave. It shows a vault, 4 mines, a place where water flows over gold, a place of worship (land formation), a crater and other formations that are in that area.

What has been shown as being the trail that is seen on the two stones of the heart map. IS INCORRECT. although it does bring you to a cave and signs of a dwelling and it does take the same course like the stone trial, it fails to show ALL the other markers that are on the stones.

I have found ALL the markers, landformation, mines and dwellings...Everything.... And they are all in the exact place as shown on the Stones. So I know for a fact, that the other trail that was made to follow the stone maps, is WRONG!!!.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Bear: Very Interesting, more.

Don Jose de La Mancha