The Peralta Stones

[truthsadvocate]

Nice Story, Any chance that you can locate that spot on Google Earth now that you have a computer?
[/quote]

Most likely I can, I can't put google earth on my computer at work, but I will look for it later on tonight. I remember the general area that it was in, and the trail that it was off. These trails don't change there as it was part of the Hatfield McCoy trail. I know one of my friends said that he went back up there about 4 years ago and walked the mountain about 100 yards below. He said that the area is still covered up. I will give a general area later.

 

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[truthsadvocate]

Oh and one other thing. I have never heard of any buried treasures in WV, but I have in VA. I do recall a couple local legends of gold mines being somewhere in the area.

 

[BenThereDoneThat]

Nice Story, Any chance that you can locate that spot on Google Earth now that you have a computer?

Most likely I can, I can't put google earth on my computer at work, but I will look for it later on tonight. I remember the general area that it was in, and the trail that it was off. These trails don't change there as it was part of the Hatfield McCoy trail. I know one of my friends said that he went back up there about 4 years ago and walked the mountain about 100 yards below. He said that the area is still covered up. I will give a general area later.
[/quote]

Wonderful, Might be good to start a different thread.

 

[Twisted Fork]

Mr. Fork,

"Hmmmn......Maybe the mines are somewhere ahead of where they found the tablets? Some place where there is enough water to cover 80 men and 200 burros for the entire season. Does that sound like the Superstitions to you? I hope not."

Maybe......Is there some evidence to support that opinion? It's just as possible that the mines are somewhere behind where they found the tablets.

Joe Ribaudo

Isn't that area above Globe the first place to look? Lots of outcrops over a wide area; iron and quartz to the Northeast banking the river. Pasture to the North, Gold, grass, game and water.

Is the tablet heart impression most similar to the mint mark on a ring? Oz. per ton?

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Fork,

Seems obvious. Had any luck?

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Twisted Fork]

Many years have passed since I first read the stories of Peralta legends out of Arizona. I do remember that rose quartz was the key sign in identifying their main dig. Visible gold is rare; visible gold in rose quartz is even more so. Gold wire is rare; gold wire in rose quartz is far more. The funnel pit was saturated with rice size pellets of broken wire gold in a matrix of rose quartz. Rose quartz is the key here if you are inclined to follow the float left behind by the river that once ground down the original outcrop, forming deposits for miles downstream. Waltz said that "No miner would find my mine" so it would have to be ahead of the float. Find the placer veins known to present day men, and go up ahead from there. God only knows how ancient this outcrop is and though the river system has changed again and again, it still runs downhill. I suspect a tide pool a mile wide with the lode sticking up out of it as the river carved out a new path for the ore to fine it's next destinations. I agree; it sucks that the darn thing is buried and landscaped but people make mistakes and time reveals all things.

 

[Ritchie]

Dear Oroblanco;
Actually, the idea of Papal infallibility goes back to the first centuries of the Christian Church, however it was never fully defined until the Vatican I Council in which it was given Solemn and Formal Definition. The first instance of Papal infallibilty was in 449 AD when Pope Leo I wrote The Tome To Flavian which defined the two natures of Jesus Christ. Two years later, at the Council of Chalcedon, the Bishops exclaimed "This is the faith of the fathers! Peter has spoken thus through Leo!"

The issue of Papal infallibilty was first raised by Theodore Abū Qurrah, a Christian Arab, during the 9th century, however was not until the Middle Ages that the concept of Papal infallibilty was serious discussed by Catholic theologians, some of which included the famed St. Thomas of Aquinas and John Peter Olivi.

The very first time that Papal infallibility was defined was in 1330 AD by +Bishop Terreni and His definition of the use of Papal infallibilty is remarkably similiar to the solemn definition outlined at the Vatican I Council. To sum up what the correct definition of Papal infallibilty is, it can be accurately stated that:

"It is incorrect to hold that doctrine teaches that the Pope is infallible in everything he says. In reality, the invocation of papal infallibility is extremely rare."
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

In all the years I have been following the story about the stone maps and the possibility of the Jesuits having made them. I have never seen anyone speak with such authority about the Jesuits as you have. I am more than a little impressed with your knowledge on the subject and your patience with those less knowledgeable. In reading your posts I keep getting the feeling you know something about the Jesuits and the possibility that they may have been mining than you are telling us. I will let that pass for now, but I do have a question for you.

Is it true that the reason for the 1767 expulsion was sealed at the time and remains unknown to this day?
I have read this on the internet in many forums, but never seen any proof that it is true.
If it is not true, could you briefly explain what the reason was for the expulsion?

If you know it.

Thank you in advance for your reply,

Ritchie

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Has the "Sims Ely's son" story (where he talks about Adolph Ruth's trip to the Supers and had a map in a metal box-supposedly the Mexican Peralta map and some other directions to the mine) ever been considered as having validity? (considering that a metal box WAS found at his campsite) If so, then it would, at the very least, a starting point to thinking that the Spanish DID make maps, rather than stones.

B

 

[gollum]

Dear Oroblanco;
Actually, the idea of Papal infallibility goes back to the first centuries of the Christian Church, however it was never fully defined until the Vatican I Council in which it was given Solemn and Formal Definition. The first instance of Papal infallibilty was in 449 AD when Pope Leo I wrote The Tome To Flavian which defined the two natures of Jesus Christ. Two years later, at the Council of Chalcedon, the Bishops exclaimed "This is the faith of the fathers! Peter has spoken thus through Leo!"

The issue of Papal infallibilty was first raised by Theodore Abū Qurrah, a Christian Arab, during the 9th century, however was not until the Middle Ages that the concept of Papal infallibilty was serious discussed by Catholic theologians, some of which included the famed St. Thomas of Aquinas and John Peter Olivi.

The very first time that Papal infallibility was defined was in 1330 AD by +Bishop Terreni and His definition of the use of Papal infallibilty is remarkably similiar to the solemn definition outlined at the Vatican I Council. To sum up what the correct definition of Papal infallibilty is, it can be accurately stated that:

"It is incorrect to hold that doctrine teaches that the Pope is infallible in everything he says. In reality, the invocation of papal infallibility is extremely rare."
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

In all the years I have been following the story about the stone maps and the possibility of the Jesuits having made them. I have never seen anyone speak with such authority about the Jesuits as you have. I am more than a little impressed with your knowledge on the subject and your patience with those less knowledgeable. In reading your posts I keep getting the feeling you know something about the Jesuits and the possibility that they may have been mining than you are telling us. I will let that pass for now, but I do have a question for you.

Is it true that the reason for the 1767 expulsion was sealed at the time and remains unknown to this day?
I have read this on the internet in many forums, but never seen any proof that it is true.
If it is not true, could you briefly explain what the reason was for the expulsion?

If you know it.

Thank you in advance for your reply,

Ritchie

Hey Ritchie,

I think this quote from my website will answer your question. In a word...yes. King Charles III invited certain guests into private audience with him, and explained his reasoning. One was the Marquis d'Ossun. This is what he said about his audience:

He swore that he had no personal feelings against the Jesuits, and until the most recent plot, had declined on several occasions to adopt counsels adverse to their interests. He had in this way disregarded the warnings of faithful servants, who had told him how, since 1759 the Religious had not ceased to revile his Government, defame his character, and even to question the sincerity of his religious faith; and had replied (to these faithful servants) that he believed them to be predjudiced and misinformed. The insurrection of 1766 had, however, openeed his eyes, for he was certain that the Jesuits had fomented it, and had proofs that it was so, since several members of the Society had been arrested while distributing money to groups (of rioters)...............................

Best-Mike

 

[Ritchie]

Hey Mike,

Thank you for the reply. My question to Lamar was if it is true that the records for the Jesuit expulsion of 1776 were sealed and remain sealed today? The quote you provided is out of context without the source identified other than your website, which I don't think I have seen. If that quote came from records of the expulsion, then obviously they are not sealed today and maybe never were. Where did that quote come from?

Could you post a link to your website so I can read the whole thing?

I am still hoping for Lamar to reply.

Ritchie

 

[Oroblanco]

WELCOME TO TREASURENET Ritchie!

The expulsion order of King Charles (1767) does not explain the reasons, saying he reserves the reasons in his Royal mind. Likewise the Dominus ac Redemptor of Pope Benedict XIV (1773) also does not list all of the reasons for the suppression of the Order, just "for good reasons". The king of Spain took his reasons to the grave, never revealing them. It is rather mysterious that there were a string of expulsions of the Jesuits, from the Portuguese dominions, then the French dominions, then Spanish, etc. We may never know the truth behind this period of history.
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear Ritchie;
You asked me:
Dear Lamar,

In all the years I have been following the story about the stone maps and the possibility of the Jesuits having made them. I have never seen anyone speak with such authority about the Jesuits as you have. I am more than a little impressed with your knowledge on the subject and your patience with those less knowledgeable. In reading your posts I keep getting the feeling you know something about the Jesuits and the possibility that they may have been mining than you are telling us. I will let that pass for now, but I do have a question for you.

Is it true that the reason for the 1767 expulsion was sealed at the time and remains unknown to this day?
I have read this on the internet in many forums, but never seen any proof that it is true.
If it is not true, could you briefly explain what the reason was for the expulsion?

If you know it.

Thank you in advance for your reply,

Ritchie


It's been my experience that there exists very few *sealed* documents in regards to anything with is housed in the Vatican archives or elsewhere within the Roman Catholic church, my friend. If you are referring to the Vatican Secret Archives, then I feel I should tell you now that the title "Vatican Secret Archives" is a direct, and very literal, translation of the official Latin title, which is Archivum Secretum Vaticanum. In this particular case, the word "Secretum" means "Private" or "Restricted" as in "The Pope's Personal Archives", which is what the Vatican Secret Archives are. They are not a part of the Roman Curia, and they are in no way secret, and how could they be if everyone knows about them?

The access to the Vatican Secret Archives is highly restricted and there is a very good reason for this to be so. First, the archives are privately owned and maintained by the Roman Catholic Church, and as such they are not a public library. Next, the Vatican Secret Archives houses the largest collection of documents pretaining to Christianity in the Middle, Near and Far East, and Europe, in existence, along with documents of a scholarly nature and as such, they are priceless. Next, the Vatican Secret Archives actually has very few personel attached to it, as there is a shortage of ordained clergy throughout the Church and virtually all ordained members are being assigned to parish duties. This makes it very difficult to gain access into the archives as there are not enough clergy to assist everyone. In short, there are no *sealed documents* housed within the Vatican Secret Archives, my friend, nor has there ever been.

Now, the Roman Curia, which is the administrative branch of the Vatican, has within it an Office titled the Apostolic Penitentiaria, or the Apostolic Penitentiary in English, and that Office maintains it's own archives and THOSE documents are sealed by the confessional for eternity. The reason why all documents housed in the Apostolic Penetentiary are sealed in because they deal with confessions and pennances, excommunication and absolutions, and indulgences. The Holy office of the Apostolic Penitentiary acts as the Confessor in the Confessor-Penitent role of the Church and the Office is primarily viewed as an Office of Mercy. I have heard it stated that not even the sitting Pope is permitted to view the archives of the Apostolic Penetentiary, however I do not know whether this is true or not, but it would seem to be so, owing to the sacred nature of the Seal of the Confessional.

The Roman Catholic Church takes the Seal of the Confessional very seriously and as such the Vatican goes to great lengths to ensure that the identities of Her penitents remains a closely guarded secret. The Apostolic Penitentiary does not get involved in matters of organizations within the Church, such as the Jesuits or other Orders. Rather, the Apostolic Penitentiary devotes it's time to individual members of the Church, therefore any sins which the Jesuits may have committed would have needed to been addressed on case by case basis. We know this did not occur as there were no excommunications incurred before, during, or after the expulsion of the Jesuits, therefore the Apostolic Penitentiary would have not had reason to get involved and if there was no involvement, then no records of the Jesuits expulsion would exist in the Archives of the Apostolic Penitentiary.

Now, this leaves only one other possibility, my friend. The records of the Jesuits activities in the colonies may have been burned or otherwise destroyed, not by the Jesuits themselves, but by some of the other *overzealous* missionary types who succeeded them. There exists documentation to the effect that many Dominican missionary groups burnt the archives of the Jesuits which were left behind when the Jesuits were expelled and to a much lesser degree, the Franciscans did this as well. In closing, perhaps at one time or other there did exist evidence of Jesuit mining activities in the New World, but if it did exist, unfortunately it has long since been destroyed.

To answer your question in brief, no, there are no sealed documents regarding the Jesuit expulsion and later suppression my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear oroblanco;
You wrote:
The expulsion order of King Charles (1767) does not explain the reasons, saying he reserves the reasons in his Royal mind. Likewise the Dominus ac Redemptor of Pope Benedict XIV (1773) also does not list all of the reasons for the suppression of the Order, just "for good reasons". The king of Spain took his reasons to the grave, never revealing them. It is rather mysterious that there were a string of expulsions of the Jesuits, from the Portuguese dominions, then the French dominions, then Spanish, etc. We may never know the truth behind this period of history.
Oroblanco

No, my friend, we will NEVER know the truth behind the expulsion of the Jesuits, yet we CAN surmise that the reasons were political instead of criminal or sinful. From the historical documentation we can plainly read that the Jesuits were a contemporary Order amidst some some very traditional types. They were also quite radical, for the times, of protecting and caring for the persons under their charge, believing that all Catholics were granted the same rights and privledges. In fact, they were the first whom thought of equal rights. Not only did they think of it, they also practiced it and it was this rather cavalier attitude towards the European colonists which got them into trouble in the first place.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote

No, my friend, we will NEVER know the truth behind the expulsion of the Jesuits, yet we CAN surmise that the reasons were political instead of criminal or sinful.

Bingo! Give that man a cigar! Of course in the eyes of monarchical government, some of the Jesuits activities would be viewed as criminal, and in the eyes of other Orders, some commercial activities might well have been viewed as "sinful", even if wholly justifiable for the sake of keeping the missions afloat.

Lamar also wrote

The records of the Jesuits activities in the colonies may have been burned or otherwise destroyed, not by the Jesuits themselves, but by some of the other *overzealous* missionary types who succeeded them. There exists documentation to the effect that many Dominican missionary groups burnt the archives of the Jesuits which were left behind when the Jesuits were expelled and to a much lesser degree, the Franciscans did this as well. In closing, perhaps at one time or other there did exist evidence of Jesuit mining activities in the New World, but if it did exist, unfortunately it has long since been destroyed.

Some of the Jesuit records for Sonora/southern Arizona were "lost" due to Franciscan monks literally selling the ancient documents as tourist souvenirs. <A dollar a page.> While this may be reprehensible for the loss of historical records it caused, the missions at the time (late 19th, early 20th centuries) were suffering for lack of funds and few people had much interest in preserving historic documents from the frontier period. A few pages of Jesuit documents have turned up in antique fairs, but a great many are lost. Especially last wills and testaments.......
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Hey Mike,

Thank you for the reply. My question to Lamar was if it is true that the records for the Jesuit expulsion of 1776 were sealed and remain sealed today? The quote you provided is out of context without the source identified other than your website, which I don't think I have seen. If that quote came from records of the expulsion, then obviously they are not sealed today and maybe never were. Where did that quote come from?

Could you post a link to your website so I can read the whole thing?

I am still hoping for Lamar to reply.

Ritchie

My website is http://www.1oro1.com

The quote is easily researchable.

There were several letters that were written regarding many peoples' private audiences with King Charles III. Long story short, Charles had been receiving advice from a lot of people who had serious problems with the Jesuits, and were not above making up things to make them look bad. During the Spanish Rebellions of 1766, several Jesuits were caught in the streets giving money to help foment the riots. For Charles, that was the straw that broke the camel's back.

Best-Mike

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

I posted the edict on the other site - the original document.


B

 

[Twisted Fork]

They were treated like any other capitol adventure that stood in the way of some new found corruption on the horizon. The right wing at a loss. They were a different brand of Jesus.

 

[alaskabill]

Nice Story, Any chance that you can locate that spot on Google Earth now that you have a computer?

Most likely I can, I can't put google earth on my computer at work, but I will look for it later on tonight. I remember the general area that it was in, and the trail that it was off. These trails don't change there as it was part of the Hatfield McCoy trail. I know one of my friends said that he went back up there about 4 years ago and walked the mountain about 100 yards below. He said that the area is still covered up. I will give a general area later.

Interesting account. I can imagine your surprise when the "troops" arrived. I also am interested if it is possible for you to locate the place with a little better accuracy. I found the Hatfield-McCoy Trail System maps but none seem to tie into the Chief Logan State Park trails.

Could you be more specific? Looking forward to your post.

Bill

 

[gollum]

Okay. For anyone interested, I have put up the entire Peralta Stone / Stone Maps Story on my website. Here is the link:

http://1oro1.com/Hidden Caches/stonemaps.html

I have just gotten so tired of retyping the same information over and over every time somebody posts some inaccurate crap, I loaded a page with all the basic information anyone would need to speak intelligently about the subject.

I ask anyone who wishes to enter into a discussion about the Stone Maps please read the entire page. What is written is very accurate and the result of much research and some great assistance from some long time Dutch Hunters.

Best-Mike

 

[ghostdog]

Mike, nice web page/ Just curious about the original stones on the bumper,
do you happen to know the size and approximate weight . Also where did get your smaller copies. What do you think the holes in the stone represent/thanks in advance.