The Peralta Stones

Hi Beth,

Like any good Dutch Hunter, I looked into the Bavaspi earthquake......years ago. Newspaper articles of that era tended to get a little flowery and often exaggerated.

I have no doubt that the earthquake did damage to the mountains, as well as the area between the Superstitions and Bavaspi. That being said, I don't believe it appreciably changed the topography of the range. Cliff faces probably calved off in many cases, but that would not be considered a major change to the mountains.

I believe any earthquake sever enough to change the topography of the Superstition Mountains, would shake most of the balanced rocks to the ground.

Here is what Tom Kollenborn wrote about the event:

http://www.ajpl.org/aj/superstition/stories/Bavaspi Earthquake.pdf

Here are other articles from the Internet:

http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/world/events/1887_05_03.php

http://www.azgs.az.gov/Hazards_ocr/earthquakes/1887 Sonoran Earthquake- Not Our Fault.pdf

The intensity level was considered "Very light" to "Light" in the area of the Superstitions. Those who were there, might have felt otherwise.

http://tlacaelel.igeofcu.unam.mx/~cruz/Sismociones_Libres/Biblio_Sismocion/Sonora_v5.pdf

There are many, many places in the Superstitions where good sized slides have taken place over the centuries. The overall topography has remained unchanged.

As I was not there, I could be totally wrong.

Take care,

Joe
 

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Of course, I have read those reports.

The headline is from a newspaper during the time it happened. I wish I could post it, but I cannot, because it is from a paid newspaper archive, and it doesn't "save".

But, having had much experience walking in the Supers, (as you, I'm sure) there are literally hundreds of places where there have been landslides - most of which I've just sat on my butt and let it "slide" me down the hill, along with debris - and there are usually huge boulders at the bottom - which came off the top.

In many, many reports, it states that the area in the Supers has changed since the days of Waltz. Since I'm old, but not that old, I cannot testify to when, or if - or how much - it might have changed.

Of course - just as an aside - do you think we were officially checking changes in the Supers during those days??? Or, is the USGS report an after-event (way after) information? I just don't think that the USGS (started in 1879) had the time to map all those mountains AND document any changes in the mountains in 8 years, so most of their information is peripheral.

But, like you - I could be wrong :icon_scratch:

B
 

Beth,

"By the way - in was a 7.5 earthquake."

That was at the epicenter, which was around 250 miles from Weaver's Needle. Like you, I have read all about that earthquake, trying to figure out if it had much effect on the Superstitions. My conclusion was.......not much at all. Don't believe it changed a single map, although better map making did make some changes.

Take care,

Joe
 

Santa Fe NM wrote
"RIGHT NOW" THE GOLD IS THE LEAST OF MY WORRYS AND THE MOST OF YOURS! IF IT REALLY WORRYS YOU GO TAKE AN ORE SAMPLE YOUR MORE THAN WELCOME.
Click to expand...

Ah well, gold is not something I worry about, and I only asked about the ore because this is the one type of evidence that will settle the case FOR ME. I am sure there are plenty of folks who are or will be convinced just on the evidence you have. As for going there to get a sample, that is not too handy at the moment, but if Mrs O and I should happen to be there at some date in the future, I will sure take a look.

Santa Fe NM also wrote
ALL I EVER WANTED WAS TO BE YOUR FRIEND!
Click to expand...

You already are amigo, just because we may disagree on the LDM or any subject does not make us stop being friends. We are bound to have differences, many of them, heck I bet we probably like different flavors of ice cream - our differences make our conversations much more interesting.

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote
Some of our posters in here can give you a run for your money. I can name several, but will only mention our Oro /ROY
Click to expand...

ME? Thanks for the vote of confidence, but I ain't so tough - heck an unarmed ladder has been kicking the crap out of me lately! :o :-[ ::) My money is on YOU, though we could point to at least a half dozen others (Cactusjumper, Cubfan, Djui, etc). :notworthy:


your friend in "Dakota Territory" :icon_thumleft:
Oroblanco
:coffee: :coffee2:
 

Hi Group,

Treasure hunting is changing in America my friends. Check out this History Channel clip: http://www.history.com/video.do?name=americanhistory The history editors pics: American History "Jesse James Hidden Treasure". Another History Channel show was broadcast on the 9th and/or 10th of this month titled "Knights of the Golden Circle" featuring Ron Pastore. Jesse James was one among the famous alleged members of ‘Knights of the Golden Circle’ (KGC) a secret society, founded with the purpose to promote the Southern United States’ interests. The other important members were Lambdin P. Milligan, Franklin Pierce and John Wilkes Booth.

What Ron Pastore, a local historian is trying to prove in his show is that Bill Kurtis the host of 1995 documentary on James, was wrong about the DNA evidence about the fake death of James. Ron rather strongly believes that James did fake his death, cheated and spent the rest of his life away from the place, in southeast Kansas. According to him the person shot in 1882 at St. Joseph Mo was Robert Ford, not Jesse James.

He offers quite new theories about the whole situation and states that neither James died in the mysterious shootouts nor he let go of the robbed money by shifting it to a safe custody. The money in question was robbed in 1864 near Placerville from two stagecoaches. Ron believes that James utilized the same to aid a forebear of the Ku Klux Klan exploits of the Knights of the Golden Circle.

EB

The documentary is definitely a show of ‘hard-work’ and it reveals many ‘unattended issues’ previously.
 

Just a point here - Ron Pastore was/is involved in BOTH documentaries you named - and a few others. Due to this fact, and his beliefs, you are bound to hear the very same type of information and theories.

B
 

Dear Ellie Baba;
My friend, ol' Jesse James did not fake his death, nor was he a member of an elite society Southern society comprised of Southern gentlemen. There is no conspiracy. The plain simple truth of the matter was that Jesse and Frank James were bank robbers, plain and simple. They were not heros not were they the modern-day version of Robin Hood. They stole and instead of re-distributing the wealth, they spent it. They frittered it away because that's the sort of men that they were. They did not rob a bank with any thought of re-investing the ill-gotten gains or even of caching a portion of it, they just blew it. Criminals tend to do this sort of thing, in case no one has noticed recently.

And that's exactly what Jesse and Frank James were, my friends. They were hardened criminals and they were stone cold killers. This is why they had half of the US looking for them. No matter how much *research* a person does, and no matter no many fanciful *theories* they propose, the fact of the matter is that Jesse and Frank James were criminals. We know this from the trail of blood and tears that they left in their wake. They didn't care about the people who's lives they ended, they cared about one thing, and one thing only. Robbery. They killed and they robbed and when it was all over and done with, they didn't show a shred of remorse and the citizens of the USA didn't show any remorse towards them in return.

People can dig up graves and attempt to extract all the DNA they want to, but the facts of the matter are that Jesse James was shot and killed. Bob Ford snuck up on him and shot Jesse in the back of the head. Jesse didn't have a chance and it for sure wasn't a fair fight, but then again Jesse James never offered any of his victims a fair fight either, so he got exactly what he gave. He was killed, Bob Ford got stiffed on the reward and that was the end of the story for Jesse James. Jesse James' mitochondrial DNA was extracted in 1995 , compared to his ancestoral kin and it matched.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Dear Lamar,

I take it you are not interested in seeing the copies of the Peralta mining documents. I went to some trouble to get them and make some copies. As I recall, it's what you asked for. I don't really need the practice, so let's not play this game again.

Take care,

Joe
 

Dear cactusjumper
As the matter of fact I am looking at them as I am writing this. They certainly look authentic but this is not saying a lot at this time. Offhandedly I would say that perhaps there was a Peralta, or rather, or at the very least, someone who used the surname Peralta, in the Arizona territory during the time in question. Right now I am attempting to verify this particular Peralta's existence in Mexico my friend. Please be a bit patient and thank you so very much for providing the documents. It's intriquing, to say the least!
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Dear cactusjumper
By the way I sent you two emails upon reciept of the document scans. From your lack of reply I am assuming that you did not recieve either reply, therefore I shall now take the oppurtunity to thank you publicly and profoundly! You have my sincere gratitude for the time and trouble which you've endured for the sake of historical accuracy and I applaud your efforts!
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Dear Lamar,

No need to apologize as I understand, completely, how our lives can get in the way of our hobbies. If you are searching in Mexico, I would suggest that you look for Blas Peralta in Jamaica, Mexico. I believe, if you follow that line of research, you will find our Arizona Peralta's. I also believe the injection of Arizpe into the Peralta/Waltz story has led to many a dead end. It's Jamaica man! :o

Take care,

Joe
 

Hmmmn......Maybe the mines are somewhere ahead of where they found the tablets? Some place where there is enough water to cover 80 men and 200 burros for the entire season. Does that sound like the Superstitions to you? I hope not. :dontknow:
 

Mr. Fork,

"Hmmmn......Maybe the mines are somewhere ahead of where they found the tablets? Some place where there is enough water to cover 80 men and 200 burros for the entire season. Does that sound like the Superstitions to you? I hope not."

Maybe......Is there some evidence to support that opinion? It's just as possible that the mines are somewhere behind where they found the tablets. :dontknow:

Joe Ribaudo
 

ghostdog said:
EB,When the Presidents signed these orders, they were delegateing ten"s of thousands of acres to be protected. To say they were doing this to protect any one treasure site, a "possible" mere spect on the landscape, defies common sense. Not to say our government does not display this trait often, I surely don"t believe its the case in your statement, EB. Proof as they say is in the pudding, I do disagree with a lot of your beliefs/conections,especially where the Dutchman is concerned being a "sentinal", however I can"t prove you wrong, but I haven"t seen that you have proved the case either. Your posts make a good read and I thank you for that..gd :thumbsup: :coffee2: :laughing9: :dontknow:
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I'm not trying to get off the subject here but I do know a few things from personal experience. When i was 15 years old, around 1998, a few friends and myself were riding 4-wheelers in a state park. (Chief Logan State Park, located in Logan County WV). We were riding a few trails in the middle of the summer and decided it would be more fun to ride up one of the mountains and across the ridges. I was in the lead and had come to the top of a smaller mountain, and had to ride down the slope and then up another slope. When i rode down the slope, I rode over something that was covered and fell through the covering. My 4-wheeler's front end smacked straight into the ground and I flipped over it. When i got up and my 2 friends came down to my rescue, I looked over at what I had just uncovered and was just pointing my finger. There was a steel door that was in the mountain with a door way, the covering was some sort of very thick netting that had been covered with leaves and sticks and false little trees. I went up to the door and of course tried to open it but it wouldn't budge, seemed to be about 4 or 5 big dead bolt locks on it. What i remember the most about the door was a small symbol at the top of the door that looked like an A and V that was intersecting, and something that was in the middle that i couldn't make out. About 5 minutes after i crashed, we heard at least 2 helicopters overhead, and about 5 more minutes there were about 7 4-wheelers coming up the mountain to where we were. There was 1 State park ranger, i think about 4 State troopers and definately 2 guys dressed in black suits (FBI, SS, CIA, who knows, they didn't even speak to us). One of the State troopers took our information and told us that we needed to get the hell out of the park and said that if we were ever seen riding in the park again we would be arrested and thrown in jail, and if we ever mentioned anything about this that they would know and they would come get us. I'm pretty sure that they knew we were just kids and just wanted to scare us, and didn't want this place found.
I didn't have internet back in those days, but a few weeks later i found out what the symbol was (Mason) after digging through library books for hours. Needless to say, after reading about the Mason's for probably a month or so, I was a pretty scared little 15 year old. I ddin't even tell my father about it until i was about 19 i think.
 

lamar said:
Dear Ellie Baba;
My friend, ol' Jesse James did not fake his death, nor was he a member of an elite society Southern society comprised of Southern gentlemen. There is no conspiracy. The plain simple truth of the matter was that Jesse and Frank James were bank robbers, plain and simple. They were not heros not were they the modern-day version of Robin Hood. They stole and instead of re-distributing the wealth, they spent it. They frittered it away because that's the sort of men that they were. They did not rob a bank with any thought of re-investing the ill-gotten gains or even of caching a portion of it, they just blew it. Criminals tend to do this sort of thing, in case no one has noticed recently.

And that's exactly what Jesse and Frank James were, my friends. They were hardened criminals and they were stone cold killers. This is why they had half of the US looking for them. No matter how much *research* a person does, and no matter no many fanciful *theories* they propose, the fact of the matter is that Jesse and Frank James were criminals. We know this from the trail of blood and tears that they left in their wake. They didn't care about the people who's lives they ended, they cared about one thing, and one thing only. Robbery. They killed and they robbed and when it was all over and done with, they didn't show a shred of remorse and the citizens of the USA didn't show any remorse towards them in return.

People can dig up graves and attempt to extract all the DNA they want to, but the facts of the matter are that Jesse James was shot and killed. Bob Ford snuck up on him and shot Jesse in the back of the head. Jesse didn't have a chance and it for sure wasn't a fair fight, but then again Jesse James never offered any of his victims a fair fight either, so he got exactly what he gave. He was killed, Bob Ford got stiffed on the reward and that was the end of the story for Jesse James. Jesse James' mitochondrial DNA was extracted in 1995 , compared to his ancestoral kin and it matched.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Click to expand...

Dear Lamar,

I'm sorry that you seem so deeply passionate that Jesse James was such a piece and was shot in the back of the head as believed. My only question to the whole entire story is this. Your Ford boys, supposidly conspired with Govenor Thomas T. Crittenden (who by many accounts along with John Newman Edwards who was a newspaper editor that glorified JJ, were both part of the KGC) to assassinate Jesse James. However, you would have me believe that this same Govenor stood by and signed Frank James' pardon papers? When Frank was involved in almost every robbery and murder that Jesse was involved in? You want me to believe that one dies while the other gets to live out is life as a farmer? Get real, Jesse James never took his guns off in front of any of the James-Younger gang members. He would have never took them off in front of these two guys.
 

truthsadvocate said:

I'm not trying to get off the subject here but I do know a few things from personal experience. When i was 15 years old, around 1998, a few friends and myself were riding 4-wheelers in a state park. (Chief Logan State Park, located in Logan County WV). We were riding a few trails in the middle of the summer and decided it would be more fun to ride up one of the mountains and across the ridges. I was in the lead and had come to the top of a smaller mountain, and had to ride down the slope and then up another slope. When i rode down the slope, I rode over something that was covered and fell through the covering. My 4-wheeler's front end smacked straight into the ground and I flipped over it. When i got up and my 2 friends came down to my rescue, I looked over at what I had just uncovered and was just pointing my finger. There was a steel door that was in the mountain with a door way, the covering was some sort of very thick netting that had been covered with leaves and sticks and false little trees. I went up to the door and of course tried to open it but it wouldn't budge, seemed to be about 4 or 5 big dead bolt locks on it. What i remember the most about the door was a small symbol at the top of the door that looked like an A and V that was intersecting, and something that was in the middle that i couldn't make out. About 5 minutes after i crashed, we heard at least 2 helicopters overhead, and about 5 more minutes there were about 7 4-wheelers coming up the mountain to where we were. There was 1 State park ranger, i think about 4 State troopers and definately 2 guys dressed in black suits (FBI, SS, CIA, who knows, they didn't even speak to us). One of the State troopers took our information and told us that we needed to get the hell out of the park and said that if we were ever seen riding in the park again we would be arrested and thrown in jail, and if we ever mentioned anything about this that they would know and they would come get us. I'm pretty sure that they knew we were just kids and just wanted to scare us, and didn't want this place found.
I didn't have internet back in those days, but a few weeks later i found out what the symbol was (Mason) after digging through library books for hours. Needless to say, after reading about the Mason's for probably a month or so, I was a pretty scared little 15 year old. I ddin't even tell my father about it until i was about 19 i think.
Click to expand...

Nice Story, Any chance that you can locate that spot on Google Earth now that you have a computer?
 

Dear truthsadvocate;
The facts of the matter are these:
Frank and Jesse James were bank robbers. Period. They DID rob banks and they not only never denied this fact, they often boasted about it. Also, Frank and Jesse James were cold-blooded murderers. Again, they often boasted about this as well.

On a personal note, you may believe whatever you wish, however the facts of the case cannot be altered, downplayed or eliminated because they are the facts. If you wish to place upon a pedestal a couple of common thugs in light of the facts, then by all means, be my guest.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

Dear Lamar,

I by no means want to put Jesse and Frank James on a pedestal as you put it. I just see many inconsistencies in a lot of the information that know to have happened back then. Even the Account given by Robert Ford did not match up with what was found by the coroner. History has been known to be wrong, on many things. And personally I do not believe that Jesse James would have taken off his guns when he was notorious for never taking them off.
 

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