The Peralta Stones

[gollum]

Ok in reply sort of to post 521 above,Gollum , here is a section from a map showing the Martydom of Father Saeta, dated 1695, made by Father Kino. Useing a magniying glass I can determine that the lettering is quite different and distinct from what I believe are modern letters showing on your gold or silver ingot. True the ingot and map were not made by and inscribed by the same persons, but the lettering should be in the same time peroid, and very similar.

Do you REALLY think that handwritten script from the hand of Father Kino is going to look anything like what would be cast into ingots? Not likely.

Below is a picture of one of the Atocha Silver Bars. The lettering on it does not look much like any I have seen hand written either. Are you saying that this 82 Troy Pound bar is a fake. It is a well known and documented Atocha recovery.

Lamar,

As usual, you light brush off something that doesn't fit neatly into your world of Jesuocity (my word). I know for a fact (as I have stated time and again), that the finder could have in no way afforded the $500,000 necessary to perpetrate a fraud. Also, they sold the gold for its content, and did not get anything over current spot gold price. That would tend to negate your belief in them being fakes. After all, buying a bunch of gold, and making it worth more than its' gold content is the only reason to perpetrate this type of fraud.

When it comes to Chuck Kenworthy and his silver bars, I can not claim to know for certain if he did fake them or not. He certainly could have afforded the amount of silver necessary for the fraud. With CK's ego, I would think that he would have publicized the find to sell forthcoming books. It never happened. As a matter of fact, nobody knows what happened to the silver bars. They may still be lurking in a safe somewhere. They may be long sold off. I don't know.

Best-Mike

 

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[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote

The Jesuits succeeded in their labors and this can evidenced in the survival of the native American peoples of today. Their cultures may have disappeared but their bloodlines have carried forward and it's my very humble opinion that we all owe the Jesuits a huge THANK YOU for their heroic efforts in this regard

Thank you? For what? According to the Franciscan fathers who followed on the heels of the Jesuits, they found the Indios utterly un-instructed in much of anything, other than they expected that they would be forced to work for the padres. In fact if we examine the Amerindian areas most influenced by the Jesuits, do we see people living in prosperity, or people living in poverty? The Jesuits may have been successful in "protecting" the Indios from the "evil" Spaniards who wanted them for slaves, but what does it say when these same Indios were running away from the missions, in order to go to work in the mines? Even in the case I mentioned earlier, the Indio testified, quote

So because of this and because the fires of rebellion were getting very hot, I decided to leave the village and went to live among the Spaniards. With this purpose I went to the ranch of Don Bernardo de Urrea to look for my horses, and then I returned to get my children with whom I went to Agua Caliente. Even then I was not safe from the persecution of the Fathers, because Lieutenant Don Cristóbal Yañez told me, "You must leave here because I have a letter from Father Jacobo Sedelmayr instructing me to give you fifty lashes and banish you from these parts."

<Pedro de la Cruz Chihuahua, Santa María Suamca, November 29, 1751" (AGI, Guadalajara 419, Francisco Padilla Testimony, 3m-55, pages 28-35>


...our history revisionists and Jesuit apologists seem to wish to deny and gloss over the fact that the mission system was rather brutal, strict and virtual enslavement for the Amerindians who were baptized into it. I do not see any justification in granting a huge THANK YOU to the Jesuits for their work, based on the results.

Lamar also wrote

Also, as a point of fact, Fr. DeSmet did not discover a gold mine, rather he discovered very rich gold deposits, the exact location of which he never devulged, and the reason he cited for refusing to divulge the location of the deposits was because he didn't wish for anyone *to disturb his children*, that being the Amerindians living in the Black Hills region of North Dakota. He spoke of the Black Hills deposits publicly only once in his lifetime, that being at a banquet which was given in his honor at St. Louis University, in St. Louis, Mo. (a Jesuit funded and run university, by the way) around 1866 AD. He took the secret with him to his grave. That was a very honorable man, in my very humble opinion.

In his own letter written to his brother, he refers to it as a "mine" and this is how it is commonly referred to among history books. The fact that he made the existence public knowledge in 1866 certainly did nothing to help hold back the "evil white men" from entering the Black Hills, in fact it encouraged them to do so. Several expeditions were organized in that period, of which none were successful. The first "proof" of gold in the hills came not from father DeSmet nor the Custer expedition but from the Dakota Indians, who brought nuggets in to trade at a fort. Funny how our good Jesuit fathers, with rules against having any kind of mines or knowledge of them, frequently seem to find those very minerals sought by the "evil" European colonists.

I would also point out that the gold regions of the Black Hills lie mostly in South Dakota, with a small adjacent region in adjoining Wyoming, but none in NORTH Dakota. (Still don't know why they divided these two states north-south, when east-west would have made perfect sense and was what the Black Hillers even asked for. Politicks...... )

Now Lamar has denied that the Jesuits were involved in gold and/or silver mining. Here is what the info page for the city of Cananea Sonora has to say, quote

The mining activity within Cananea has a lengthy history. The registry dates from 1760, when Jesuit missionaries discovered abundant deposits of gold and silver, resulting in the beginning of mining operations in Cobre Grande (The Great Copper mine). Mr. William Cornell Green was the founder and creative mind behind The Cananea Consolidated Copper Company.

http://www.gotosonora.com/cananea-son-mx.htm

Or how about this, quote

"In at least one documented case, the relationship between missionaries and miners in connection with food supply resulted in a singular activity on the part of the priests. Mining in Sonora was not limited entirely to lay Spaniards. The Jesuits of Matape mission also engaged in the extraction and refining of silver ores from deposits near Tecoripa, not far from San Miguel Arcangel. According to the rules of the Jesuit order, priests were forbidden to own, operate, or even acquire knowledge of mining. But apparently, ownership of the mines in question had been signed over to the mission by a Spanish miner in payment for debts he incurred for supplies obtained from the padres. Moreover, the priests claimed that the mines belonged to the College of San Jose' at Matape, not to the mission itself, and thus the superiors permitted continuation of the "forbidden" activity. During the late seventeenth century annual proceeds from the Tecoripa mines under church management ranged from three thousand to twelve thousand pesos, a substantial windfall for the college and the missionaries.

<pp 62, Sonora: its geographical personality
By Robert Cooper West, 1993>

We could debate whether the Jesuits were a positive or negative influence on southwestern history probably ad nauseum. I think we can lay the wholesale denials of Jesuit mining to rest once and for all however, and we ought to also lay to rest the idea that there were many thousands of Jesuit mines and/or treasures scattered literally all over the American (and Mexican) west - there was never that much activity. It has become common practice to refer to ancient mines as "Jesuit" when most were actually just Spanish, and some were even owned and operated by the Indios themselves (the southern Pimas and Opatas especially were active and successful miners). The Jesuits were the religious leaders and have thus become "tied" to many more mines than they truly had any kind of ownership or management of, because they were perceived as the masters by the Indios from whom most of our treasure legends originate. As with many parts of history, the truth lay between the extremes we are offered.
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
You wrote:
In his own letter written to his brother, he refers to it as a "mine" and this is how it is commonly referred to among history books. The fact that he made the existence public knowledge in 1866 certainly did nothing to help hold back the "evil white men" from entering the Black Hills, in fact it encouraged them to do so. Several expeditions were organized in that period, of which none were successful. The first "proof" of gold in the hills came not from father DeSmet nor the Custer expedition but from the Dakota Indians, who brought nuggets in to trade at a fort. Funny how our good Jesuit fathers, with rules against having any kind of mines or knowledge of them, frequently seem to find those very minerals sought by the "evil" European colonists.


No, Fr. DeSmet did not refer to his discovery as a mine in the letter he wrote to his brother, my friend. Fr. DeSmet was from Fleming, therefore his native tongue was Dutch, which is the language that the original letter was written it. It would seem that some ill-informed American mistranslated the original document.

Next, you wrote:
Funny how our good Jesuit fathers, with rules against having any kind of mines or knowledge of them, frequently seem to find those very minerals sought by the "evil" European colonists.


That only pertained to the pre-suppression Jesuits and it did not include those Jesuits whom were a part of the Society after the Order's restoration. Plus, that rule only pertained to Jesuits in the northern missions of New Spain.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;

You wrote:
As usual, you light brush off something that doesn't fit neatly into your world of Jesuocity (my word). I know for a fact (as I have stated time and again), that the finder could have in no way afforded the $500,000 necessary to perpetrate a fraud. Also, they sold the gold for its content, and did not get anything over current spot gold price. That would tend to negate your belief in them being fakes. After all, buying a bunch of gold, and making it worth more than its' gold content is the only reason to perpetrate this type of fraud.

When it comes to Chuck Kenworthy and his silver bars, I can not claim to know for certain if he did fake them or not. He certainly could have afforded the amount of silver necessary for the fraud. With CK's ego, I would think that he would have publicized the find to sell forthcoming books. It never happened. As a matter of fact, nobody knows what happened to the silver bars. They may still be lurking in a safe somewhere. They may be long sold off. I don't know.


And you seem to take everything which anyone tells you at face value, my friend. I have many questions in regards to the bullion caches. Were the bars ever assayed, and if so, by whom and when? What were the individual weights of the contents? What was the particulate breakdown of each piece in each cache? Did the alloy composition vary between the contents or did it remain constant throughout the cache? What was the total weight of the cache? Did the undisturbed cache consist of only one type of material or were the materials intermixed, ie, gold bars and silver bars?

Once more, I would not be searching for a motive, merely a verification as to the authenticity of the bars in question.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies & Gentlemen: A few thoughts.

A) It is known that I have found and own Tayopa, a mine that was supposedly run by the by the Jesuits. It is claimed in here that this was impossible because the Jesuits simply did not mine. This is not true since there were orders that if Jesuit acquired a mine by inheritance, or other means, he could continue working it until there was an opportunity to dispose of it. This is not an outright ban, but a specific loophole.

Tayopa was an exceedingly rich operation, it was never registered in the mining archives as required. No civilian could ever hope to keep it's location secret for long, but a group that were united into a common cause could, and did.

If someone had accidentally stumbled upon Tayopa and found that it hadn't been registered, he could simply file on the property at the nearest mining agency and own it legally. Obviously he wouldn't, if he found that it was being operated by the Society.

The Indians up there told me that their ancestors claimed that the Black robes told them that all metals such as Gold and Silver belonged to mother earth, and as such, only they could borrow them from Mother earth. This was backed by an horrible, undefined, curse to those that disobeyed. Even today, the remote Indians still believe this. I personally have known some that did, and shortly after died, a psychosomatic factor obviously, but still lethal.

B) As I mentioned, why was the Resident Jesuit in Yecora so insistant in having a meeting to discuss Tayopa after learning that I had found it?

C) I refer you to my last post in which several questions were asked and still are unanswered, merely brushed aside.

D) Lamar can you give me a complete listing of ALL of the missions or locations staffed by member of the Jesuit Society in northern Mexico from the Sea of Cortez to Matamorros within the dates of 1700 - 1769? They need not be 'ordained' personnel, probably weren't, but trusted members perhaps such as yourself, but nevertheless, members of the Jesuit Society.

To blithefully ignore, or write off any evidence, due to lack of confirmation From Rome is illogical, since the very nature of the subject is kept hidden by the authors themselves.

This will do for an opening.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Lamar my friend, and you are my friend, despite our minor differences:You posted this to My other friend Gully -->

"And you seem to take everything which anyone tells you at face value, my friend. I have many questions in regards to the bullion caches. Were the bars ever assayed, and if so, by whom and when? What were the individual weights of the contents? What was the particulate breakdown of each piece in each cache? Did the alloy composition vary between the contents or did it remain constant throughout the cache? What was the total weight of the cache? Did the undisturbed cache consist of only one type of material or were the materials intermixed, ie, gold bars and silver bars?

Once more, I would not be searching for a motive, merely a verification as to the authenticity of the bars in question.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

May I point out that this presupposes that they all came from the same mine or mineral zone. Hence your request, while logical, is basically pointless.

Don Jose de La Mancha

"

 

[cactusjumper]

Lamar my friend, and you are my friend, despite our minor differences:You posted this to My other friend Gully -->

"And you seem to take everything which anyone tells you at face value, my friend. I have many questions in regards to the bullion caches. Were the bars ever assayed, and if so, by whom and when? What were the individual weights of the contents? What was the particulate breakdown of each piece in each cache? Did the alloy composition vary between the contents or did it remain constant throughout the cache? What was the total weight of the cache? Did the undisturbed cache consist of only one type of material or were the materials intermixed, ie, gold bars and silver bars?

Once more, I would not be searching for a motive, merely a verification as to the authenticity of the bars in question.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

May I point out that this presupposes that they all came from the same mine or mineral zone. Hence your request, while logical, is basically pointless.

Don Jose de La Mancha

"

Don Jose,

I don't believe you can pre-suppose anything about Lamar's questions. There could be more than one reason for his asking each of those questions. Your points are valid, but may not reflect Lamar's points. I have no doubt he will address this himself.


As for the Jesuit interest in your find, that seems more than natural to me, as I have mentioned to you before. After all, it has been claimed that the mine is Jesuit and you have stated the same thing. Like it or not, Tayopa and the Jesuit history in Mexico are tied together forever. The truth of that connection is not really important to what you are doing.

Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

"When it comes to Chuck Kenworthy and his silver bars, I can not claim to know for certain if he did fake them or not. He certainly could have afforded the amount of silver necessary for the fraud. With CK's ego, I would think that he would have publicized the find to sell forthcoming books. It never happened. As a matter of fact, nobody knows what happened to the silver bars. They may still be lurking in a safe somewhere. They may be long sold off. I don't know."

It seems to me, that if Kenworthy believed the bars were authentic, he would have crowed like a rooster. They would have been submitted for analysis and advertised as artifacts. Because they have completely disappeared, I believe Chuck knew he couldn't carry on with his claims and let the story die a natural death.

Just another usless opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear Real de Tayopa;
Yes, what Cactusjumper posted is the truth, I have many more reasons for waiting verification of the caches than meets the eye.
First, if one of the caches is false, then that can eliminate the Jesuits as possible culprits. On the other hand, if any of the caches were to be authentic, they could possibly be used to implicate the Jesuits, and more importantly, it would behoove all interested parties to remember that "When it rains, it pours" so to speak. In other words, the veracity of the cache would lend some credence to the theory that there are even more as yet undiscovered caches. This in turn, would give cause to devoting time and effort in locating and recovering said caches.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

I believe the Jesuits were usually paid in silver, so a large number of gold artifacts with priests names on them would be indicative of........something. Fraud would be my guess, but It's possible the Jesuits had gold mines and wanted to make sure that no one thought that the gold ingots did not belong to them.

I suppose it would be akin to someone murdering their ex wife and carving their name in her forehead. A bit macabre, but effectively marking ownership of the deed. While Jesuit treasure hunters have claimed the Fathers were clever enough to hide their mining activity from the public......for centuries, they were stupid enough to sign the evidence to their crime.

I suppose anything is possible.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning Lamar, my friend: you posted-->

"First, if one of the caches is false, then that can eliminate the Jesuits as possible culprits".
~~~~~~~~~~~

Perhaps you may wish to rephrase that ?

Don Jose de La Mancha
"

 

[lamar]

Dear Real de Tayopa;
If the caches are fake, then obviously the Jesuits could not have been involved, which they were not. Common sense tells us that the Jesuits are innocent of any and all charges levied against them as individuals or as an Order.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

god morning Lamar MGF: You posted-->

"Common sense tells us that the Jesuits are innocent of any and all charges levied against them as individuals or as an Order"
~~~~~~~~~~
Common sense does not hold up in a court of law as you well know, However common sense as applied to Tayopa, indicates that only they could have operated it clandestinely.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[lamar]

Dear Real de Tayopa;
You wrote:

Common sense does not hold up in a court of law as you well know, However common sense as applied to Tayopa, indicates that only they could have operated it clandestinely.


Yes, however we are not in a court of law and the Jesuits are not on trial, my friend, therefore we can use common sense to our heart's content.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

I suppose it would be akin to someone murdering their ex wife and carving their name in her forehead. A bit macabre, but effectively marking ownership of the deed. While Jesuit treasure hunters have claimed the Fathers were clever enough to hide their mining activity from the public......for centuries, they were stupid enough to sign the evidence to their crime.

Is it so strange, if you consider that it was probably intended to be shipped on Jesuit ships? According to the Jesuits' own letters (the "Relacions") they had their own ships. In such a case, ownership marks would be logical, so long as the goods were never seized by the secular authorities. Also, we know that the Padres were often entrusted with monies and valuables belonging to the secular authorities as well as lay persons, so ownership marks would not be unusual if these valuables were stored together.

This argument does not prove the Kenworthy's bars were genuine, but the fact that he did not publish his find strikes me as very odd if they were false. Compare this to Milton Rose, who presented fake bars and published his finds. It does not make sense to keep it private unless they WERE genuine and he did not want anyone trying to make a legal claim against him. For me, the bars remain a mystery, but leaning towards their being genuine.

I also tend to take people at face value, until proven otherwise - and the BS artists never take long to show their hand. Besides, as the old saying goes, "we are just what we pretend to be" at least to those around us. For instance if a fellow dresses as a cowboy, acts like a cowboy, then most people take him to be a real cowboy - for all intents and purposes he IS a cowboy, until he should prove that assumption false. <And NO I do not pretend to be a cowboy!>
Oroblanco

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
I was unaware the Jesuits had their own ships, and what's more, I was also unaware that the Vatican would have permitted such a thing. After all, the Roman Catholic church is not a shipping company, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA mi amigo Lamar,

<Lamar wrote>

I was unaware the Jesuits had their own ships, and what's more, I was also unaware that the Vatican would have permitted such a thing. After all, the Roman Catholic church is not a shipping company, my friend.

First, the references to having their own ships are found in the Jesuit Relacions, in letters written by Jesuit fathers. It appears that you have leapt to the conclusion this means some kind of a "private navy" when in context it seems to be saying their own HIRED ships, not ships built or manned by Jesuit priests. It is not in error to say "our ship" if it is a hired or leased vessel, but is a different situation than having a private navy, as the Vatican had. I realize the Papal navy was a quite small squadron, and likely spent most time in the Mediterranean but I suppose it is possible that a Papal ship made the voyage to America. Do you know of any instance in which a vessel of the Papal navy crossed the Atlantic? Thank you in advance.

Second, why should the Vatican have had any proscriptions against the hiring or leasing of ships, when the very needs of the missions and produce to be sold were being transported? I see no good argument against such a pragmatic approach, especially when the missions were in dire need of such things as food, tools, medicine etc or that at least in some cases, the missions were being charged exhorbitant prices for shipping out their produce to sell in Europe. (Several letters complained of this and even listed the ridiculous fees being charged by the ship owners.) I must confess, this objection on your part mystifies me.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Mike,

"When it comes to Chuck Kenworthy and his silver bars, I can not claim to know for certain if he did fake them or not. He certainly could have afforded the amount of silver necessary for the fraud. With CK's ego, I would think that he would have publicized the find to sell forthcoming books. It never happened. As a matter of fact, nobody knows what happened to the silver bars. They may still be lurking in a safe somewhere. They may be long sold off. I don't know."

It seems to me, that if Kenworthy believed the bars were authentic, he would have crowed like a rooster. They would have been submitted for analysis and advertised as artifacts. Because they have completely disappeared, I believe Chuck knew he couldn't carry on with his claims and let the story die a natural death.

Just another usless opinion.

Take care,

Joe

Hey Joe,

Just shows that you didn't know CK. While he may have had a big ego, he was also a very intelligent person. A very intelligent person with a lot of money, who was also smart enough to know that if he publicized his finds, there would be legal and fiscal issues that he would have to address. Also, from my understanding, there is a LOT of information that he never put in his books. You always have to remember that he had founded Quest (a Treasure Hunting LLC). He shared some of what he knew, but kept back some of the more important stuff.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Dear Oroblanco;
I was unaware the Jesuits had their own ships, and what's more, I was also unaware that the Vatican would have permitted such a thing. After all, the Roman Catholic church is not a shipping company, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Are you REALLY unaware of that? Do you REALLY know nothing of Padre Kino SJ commissioning a ship to be built at Caborca? Ostensibly it was to bring cattle and supplies to Baja before he found the NorthWestern Route.

Also, for a Padre who was as poor as Kino was supposed to have been, maybe this statement should raise a couple of eyebrows:

After the dedication ceremonies, Minutuli rode to San Ignacio, where Kino joined him and accompanied him to his Mission of Tubutama. The Dolores Missionary (Kino) had prepared for Minutuli's arrival ~........................ ~ "We made plans for a good and spacious Church and House. I PROMISED TO BUILD THE CHURCH AT MY EXPENSE"

Quote from Father Kino SJ to Father Minutuli SJ, regarding the bvuilding of a new church at Tubutama, from: "Kino and Manje, Explorers of Sonora and Arizona" pg 140 by Father Ernest Burrus SJ.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear Gollum;
You accusingly wrote:
Are you REALLY unaware of that? Do you REALLY know nothing of Padre Kino SJ commissioning a ship to be built at Caborca? Ostensibly it was to bring cattle and supplies to Baja before he found the NorthWestern Route.


My friend, are you REALLY unaware that Caborca happens to be situated in a DESERT? And being a desert, to the very best of my knowledge, there are no large TREES, as trees require a substantial amount of rainfall annually in order to grow, prosper and become TIMBER, which was of course the principle building material in the construction of ships during that era. What were they going to build this ship out of, adobe perhaps?

It would perhaps been a bit more plausible if the author chose to accuse Fr. Kino of comissioning a ship to be built further south along the Pacific shore where there actually exists enough tree growth to support the building and outfitting of a ship.

I've been to Caborca and I've seen the dust devils rising a couple of hundred feet above the ground. As far as I am aware, the area surrounding Caborca has been this way since at least since the very first colonists arrived and it's only been in very modern times that irrigation has allowed for the agriculturists to produce substainable crops.
Your friend;
LAMAR