The Peralta Stones

Dear cactusjumper;
You mean that you've never heard of that famous volume "The Jesuit Secret Code Book" the book which everyone has heard about, the one that practically everyone knows the contents of by memory, yet no one has ever seen? I think that some writer wrote something about deciphering these codes from documents he recieved from Spain and other obscure locales.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

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Dear Lamar,

Of course I have heard of it, and have a copy......somewhere. ??? It's a pee poor treasure hunter that doesn't have a copy on his bookshelf.

Father Molina......Hmmmmm!

Take care,

Joe
 

Dear cactusjumper;
Yes, my friend, Fr. Luis de Molina, born in Cuenca, New Castle, Spain in 1535. He was a very highly respected Jesuit theologian and he really rocked the boat back in his day. In fact, his name was brought up several times before the tribunal of the Spanish Inquisition. That must have took some doing. Anyway, here is a link to get you started, should you decide to research this mostly highly respected and very controversial Roman Catholic theologian.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/10436a.htm
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

lamar said:
Dear cactusjumper;
Also, another curiousity which has been bothering me is the fact that the first Spanish Royal Edict which outlined the marking of mines with all of those arcane symbols was penned in 1584 AD, which is not unusual in and of itself until we stop and think that the Jesuits weren't even in the New World until after 1609 AD, some 25 YEARS after the edict was written.
Your friend;
LAMAR
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Lamar,

You are incorrect as to the date of the first Jesuits in the New World. You say 1609, but Father Polzer SJ in his book "Jesuit Missions in Northern Mexico", on page 242, states that the first Jesuits (Fathers Loza and Ybarra) set up their habitation in Mexico City in 1572. They did not arrive in any numbers until 1609, but they were there much earlier.

Best-Mike
 

cactusjumper said:
Good morning Mike,

I have, and have read each of the books you referenced. I quoted from them a few years ago on the LDM Forum.

I wrote:

[I spent several hours with Chuck Kenworthy over a very extended lunch at the Village Inn Restaurant in Apache Junction on 2/5/95. We discussed the Stone Maps and Chuck said that Eugene Lyon was the researcher that had provided the Spanish records on the King of Spain's rules for coded signs and symbols to be used on maps plus trail markers and monuments. He indicated that he had received copies of this information and not originals. He states this also on Page 15 of his book, "Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow, & Sun Signs".]

In my quote of Roger's post, I attempted to separate what Kenworthy told him, and what was in his book. Not very well it seems. :-[ My Bad!

I have also tried, as Lamar has, to explain the rich trappings that could be found in even the meanest mission. The Jesuits spent very little on themselves, other than for spices & chocolate. :coffee2: I would recommend "Wandering Peoples" by Cynthia Radding to get a better feel for the wealth and finances of the missions. As a side note, I don't believe Ms. Radding was a fan of the Jesuits.

I would suggest that you pay particular attention starting on page 70. Here is a quote from page 81:
"The religious cult absorbed considerable community resources. Jesuits adorned mission chapels with saints' images, chalices, organs, and embellished cloth as a means of imparting Christian doctrine to the Indians in their care."

The Jesuits were prolific writers. With that as a consideration, there is no doubt that you will be able to find cases where they bent the rules, or possibly broke them completely. The problem comes, IMHO, when you try to advance those few passages into a vast Jesuit treasure legend.

The Spanish were experts at extracting treasure and secrets from anyone. They left no stone unturned. Even cesspools were searched. They found nothing, not even stories of treasures being spirited away. They were shocked that they came up empty handed.

I would like to see a reasonable explanation of why the priests put their names on these treasures. In those days, their names would have no effect on value. The only reason that makes sense, is that the marcos were being set aside to pay the priests for the missions goods.

Take care,

Joe
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Hey Joe,

I understood the post completely. Although, he didn't say anything about Dr. Lyon in any of his published works. What he may have said to your friend Roger, I can't account for. As I have gotten to know the ins and outs of so many of the "Published" Treasure Hunters (Dobie, Storm, Mrchkowski, etc), I wouldn't put it past CK to have embellished some of his stories while talking to neophytes (HAHAHA). I can only go by what I have read, and what I know from some friends I have that were very close with him.

I also have read MANY accounts of Jesuits in the New World. I have a fairly extensive library of books devoted to Jesuocity (my word). I have copies of hundreds of pages of period letters written between Jesuits from DRSW Fiche Files. I have the same from the Bancroft Library (UC Berkeley). I have several books by Herbert E Bolton. Diarios of many New World Explorers, many of them Jesuits (Kino & Manje [all five of their expeditions], Diego Carrasco, Father Salvatierra, Velarde, Baltasar, Father Och, Father Nentvig, etc). I have books by Fathers Polzer and Burrus SJ. My knowledge of Jesuits (and Spanish in general) in the New World, with an emphasis on Pimeria Alta, is fairly expansive.

Lets' say that I concede the point of the Jesuits mining activities (I don't, but for arguments sake, lets just say so for now). Let's say that the Jesuits' only source of income were their commercial endeavors, bequeathments from new members, bequeathments from dying people, and tithes from living people. Let's say that through those acts, they became quite wealthy (as an Order and not individually). Say they turned their profits into Church Adornments for the greater glory of God (as per their founder Father Francis Xavier SJ). The magnificent Church Adornments were written about by several Jesuits after returning to Europe post-expulsion.

Hardly any of those adornments were found when the Spanish arrested them on 26 June 1767. I have even done something I doubt very many others have done. I looked at which Franciscans came immediately after the Jesuits, and what they reported. Turns out that Fray Junipero Serra was the man who took possession of the Jesuit Church supplies from some missions in order to found the California Missions. In his own words, he states what he got, and it wasn't much (compared to what the Jesuit Fathers wrote about).

My beliefs regarding Jesuit Treasures comes only after much research.

...and that doesn't include writings from others from other parts of the New World (Sir Percifal Fawcett, etc).

Best-Mike
 

Furness,

Fawcett wrote fairly extensively about the numbers of Jesuit Gold Mines in Bolivia. When he was there around the turn of the century, there were natives whose grandparent had worked the mines (and I'm sure they knew for whom they were working).

He even mentions a bit about how tghe Jesuits had planned to use the money from their mining activities to purchase what was known as Bolivia (much larger at the time), and turn it into an autonomous Jesuit Country.

Best-Mike
 

Dear gollum;
There was no country known as Bolivia at that time. It was called Upper Peru then. And yes, the first Jesuits arrived in Mexico City in 1572 AD, but they were few in number and they were administration types. The corps of the Jesuit missionaries did not arrive in any great numbers until after 1609 AD, when the King of Spain bade them to help convert the natives.
Your friend;
LAMAR
 

I should have used Fawcett's words; the area of what is now called Bolivia.

Mike
 

HI ALL:
I thought that maybe I would contribute this link,http://sirismm.si.edu/naa/viewer/MS4605_pg1-pg25_Gallery/
for those that might wonder what some of these people and places looked looked like,at least in the early days of photography.
About three or four pages in are a couple of the church of santa fe.Use the toolbar on the flash viewer to enlarge and scroll around.

Regards:SH
 

Mike,

"Hardly any of those adornments were found when the Spanish arrested them on 26 June 1767. I have even done something I doubt very many others have done. I looked at which Franciscans came immediately after the Jesuits, and what they reported. Turns out that Fray Junipero Serra was the man who took possession of the Jesuit Church supplies from some missions in order to found the California Missions. In his own words, he states what he got, and it wasn't much (compared to what the Jesuit Fathers wrote about)."

I had not heard the version you have written as to what took place when Father Serra was given the task of taking charge of the Jesuit missions in California. This is what I understood took place:


[It soon became apparent to the missionaries that, far from what they had been led to believe, they had not entered upon the Promised Land. They found the missions in a deplorable condition. Although they had been in existence since 1697, the date of the occupation of the peninsula, all of them together numbered only 7,149 Christians, including women and children, and many of those were still running around nude. Some of the stations, established in barren localities, had always been poor. The others had been looted since the Jesuits, driven out by Portola in December, had left them.

In fact Portola had, upon his arrival and while awaiting the coming of the delayed Franciscans, charged certain of the soldiers with guardianship of those missions, as the Indians would have completely plundered them otherwise. These soldier guardians took over the looting in their turn. Not to mention the cellars and granaries they emptied, they became voracious meat eaters, and set themselves up as butchers on a wholesale scale. One of them slaughtered 600 head of livestock, another 400, a third 300. "Six months more of such 'administration,'" wrote Palou, "and there would have been nothing left at all."]

My source here was: "The Last of the Conquistadors, Junipero Serra 1713-1784" by Katherine Woods.

Did you have a source for the information you provided?

Many thanks,

Joe
 

SH,

Those were some fine pictures. Thanks for the link.

I have a number of good pictures of the San Miguel Mission, inside as well as outside. Many are from the same time period as those you provided. Beyond that, I have a notebook full of information from the Brothers, historians and various other sources.

Needless to say, I found the photos very interesting.

Thanks again,

Joe
 

All of those missing goods and adornments went into Kivas that once held the treasures of the Aztec's priesthood. Caves are earthquake proof. They were visionaries preparing for the end of times and the fall of humanity as it is prophesied. The book of Revelations was surely their guide. All were awaiting the great tribulation and the rise of the Anti-Christ. The Kivas are full with anticipation. A unique and God mysterious bunch.
 

Hi Joe:
It's been some time since I checked the Smithsonian website.The last time,though,you had to have a login to see any of this stuff.
Here is a couple that I found interesting,for example.
The first one is of charcoal kilns in Mexico similar to those that were in a photo that you may have posted some time ago.
The second is also from Mexico,of a stone wall similar to one we have seen before.

Regards:SH
 

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Ellie,

[In fact Portola had, upon his arrival and while awaiting the coming of the delayed Franciscans, charged certain of the soldiers with guardianship of those missions, as the Indians would have completely plundered them otherwise. These soldier guardians took over the looting in their turn. Not to mention the cellars and granaries they emptied, they became voracious meat eaters, and set themselves up as butchers on a wholesale scale. One of them slaughtered 600 head of livestock, another 400, a third 300. "Six months more of such 'administration,'" wrote Palou, "and there would have been nothing left at all."]

Sadly, the "guardians" have been robbing Mexico since the arrival of the Conquistadors. Rather than face that fact, treasure hunters have created legends of Aztec and Jesuit treasure. Part of the truth is, that much of Mexico's treasures have been absorbed into the population. Conquistadors, Indians, French occupation, corrupt Government officials, and the list goes on..........

All this theft of national treasures has been well documented, but is not believed by the treasure hunting community at large. To accept the truth, leaves nothing to dream of finding. On the other hand, it's a wonderful and educational hobby.

Beyond that, it gets us outdoors and gets the stink blowed off. :icon_thumleft:

Joe Ribaudo
 

Good Morning Ladies and gentlemen: I have held off putting in my 2 cents, but -- the flesh is weak, in spite of being a living Saint.

A) Tayopa is established as being real and has been located. The families of the Indians up there still talk of the Jesuits (Black Robes) that ran it and built the mission and headquarters.
~~~~~~~~

B) The sierra Indians always have an old woman that is the keeper of the history and linage of the tribe. Many go way back and are surprisingly accurate.

According to the local Indian family, What was the "Black robe" doing climbing around the area where The Main deposit of Tayopa is located.??

There was only one family in the area, this certainly did not justify his being there, unless, he was looking for Tayopa and the main deposit.

Unfortunately he fell to his death and that section is now known as "El Cerro del Cura". "The hill of the Priest".
~~~~~~~~~~~

C) Why did the old Indian gal that I cured, tell me of her family and their association with the Black Robes It was voluntary.

According to her, her family was closely involved with the"Black Robes". One day they took the jefe (head)of her family, one days ride to the East
to a small valley. There they had him build a depository inside the side of a hill and a mission.

Later they came back with two metal doors which they hung inside of the entrance. Periodically, many mule loads were placed inside of the depository, occasionally being sent East to the next mission.

One day they came down very agitated, with many more muleloads of bars, put them, as well as many, many documents, inside of the depository. They then closed the two doors, locked them, then caved down tons of dirt covering all visible evidence of the depository.

D)
Why was the resident Priest at Yecora soo agitated upon seeing my logo of Tayopa and insisted in my going to Yecora for a full night of talk of Tayopa and drinking coffee??
~~~~~~~~~~~~

E) Why were the two young Jesuits (ordained ?) looking for that lost Au mine near Chinapas?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~

F) What about my former assoc and his audience with the then no 2 of the Jesuit Society in Rome, the one who he pointedly asked about the plot to take North America from Spain, in which the gentleman merely laughed and said, yes we did, but we don't do anyting like that any more.

When I asked him how he managed this Audience, he said "party because he had been Jesuit educated, but refused to be ordained, and also just plain 'Ba--s", he bluffed his way.

D) Lamar you are acquainted with the two Councils of the Indies. They often varied radically with each other. One allowed the Jesuits to mine, the other did not. They differed primarily in their intrepretation of Royal orders and local conditons.

This for starters.


Don Jose de La Mancha
 

HOLA amigos,
This is a VERY long reply, so I must beg your indulgence.

Cactusjumper wrote
The Spanish were experts at extracting treasure and secrets from anyone. They left no stone unturned. Even cesspools were searched. They found nothing, not even stories of treasures being spirited away. They were shocked that they came up empty handed.

I would like to see a reasonable explanation of why the priests put their names on these treasures. In those days, their names would have no effect on value. The only reason that makes sense, is that the marcos were being set aside to pay the priests for the missions goods.
Click to expand...

I am convinced the Spanish failed on several counts, for one they were dealing with the Padres and not with the Lay Brothers, whom appear to have been the real operators of most or all of the so-called "Jesuit" mines. So no information could ever be extracted, as they had no knowledge in general. The other problem is that of shill-ownership of various assets; these are even listed among the assets discovered by the Spanish authorities, whom did not recognize that the true ownership.however was the Order. The Jesuit missions were financially successful (in general) and at least in New France, had their own ships for carrying their own needs and produce. Their very success led to great jealousies and suspicions, and we know the rest of the story.

As for HOW these numerous legends of lost Jesuit treasures, mines etc came about, I cited one example in another thread - where a Jesuit father held the safebox for the authorities, and hid it during Indio troubles - think of how this was interpreted by Indio witnesses. Then recall that most (if not all) of these legends of lost Jesuit treasures originate from Indio stories passed down and devoured by treasure hunters who preserved (and embellished upon) them. We might well take note that virtually all of the Jesuit missions and even the visitas were equipped with beautiful and costly trappings, and that virtually NONE of these costly trappings were found by the Spanish authorities. (Or the French authorities when they were expelled from the French colonies.) Someone hid these treasures, and they are worth a great deal today. Here is one example, and penned by Father Keller, whose actions are suspected of being one of the key causes of the Pima revolt

My Reverend Father Gaspar Stiger,<snip>
I came to Terrenate yesterday to hide the ornaments of the church and a family.
Terrenate, November 28, 1751
Your Humble Servant, Keller
If Your Reverence should see the Father Visitor and Juan, give them my affection.
letter from Ignacio Xavier Keller SJ to Gaspar Stiger SJ, Terrenate, November 28, 1751
(AGI, Guadalajara 419, 3m-49, page 2)
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Again consider what an Indio might conclude, witnessing father Keller hide these beautiful objects, with the revolt developing. How would our Indio report this incident when passing it down to the grandchildren, and from them on to our treasure hunters? Remember most Jesuit treasure legends can be traced to Indians telling some treasure-hunter friend, who then published it.

I would also point out that the Jesuit fathers were ministering to the various mining camps, now consider how an Indio might see this when they would see the Padre's visits to the mines. Would the Father not be treated with great deference, even reverence by the mine operators? An Indio might see this behavior and logically deduce that the Padre must be the owner.

As for pointing out some "bad actors" we could list Fathers Garrucho, Keller, Tello SJ for starters, and take note that one of the key conditions for ending the Pima revolt of 1751 was that Keller must leave the area. It only takes a handful of bad actors for a whole group to get a bad name, however unjustly.

Lamar wrote
et si oculus tuus scandalizat te erue eum et proice abs te bonum tibi est unoculum in vitam intrare quam duos oculos habentem mitti in gehennam ignis
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Hoo boy way too much Latin in one sentence, especially for those who delude themselves into believing their "self-taught" interpretation is in any way accurate! (heh heh) Thank you for translating. :read2:

Lamar also wrote
Why single out one certain Order for accusations? Why accuse the Jesuits and not include the Franciscans or the Domincans? Perhaps it was because those two Orders tended to follow and enforce the secular laws of the lands in which their missions were situated? In other words, they seemed to be much more adept at playing the political game than the Jesuits were and they tended to not want to upturn the applecart.
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I am mystified at this situation as well, and would point out that the Franciscans do in fact have quite a large number of treasure legends associated with them - however these are largely ignored by the treasure hunting community. In Texas, New Mexico and elsewhere these legends are circulated but they are just not popularly known. In Arizona, we know that the Franciscans took over the Jesuit missions after their expulsion, but the Franciscans were far less successful - they WERE actively involved in mining, at least in those few cases where they were able to re-discover earlier mines, but it seems the Apache problem had become so intolerable that "civilization" was in retreat rather than advance while they held sway. As for the Dominicans, their behavior is far more questionable in many instances, I think the only reason we do not have legends of lost Dominican treasures in the American southwest is because of their absence.

As our mutual amigo Furness pointed out, we have a number of folks who defend the Jesuits and deny all such activities, but in the case with the Franciscans, we have no such denials. :icon_scratch:

Lamar also wrote
Dear cactusjumper;
I particularly liked how she worded:
The religious cult absorbed considerable community resources.

Does this mean that I, as part of the largest organized religion in the world, am actually a member of a cult??? Someone ought to inform the Pope, I think...
Your friend who is writing a letter to Rome;
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Cult is a matter of definition, according to one source most of us here would qualify - for anyone who believes in some invisible super-being is one definition of a "cult" member. :o ::) ;D :icon_thumleft:

Lamar also wrote
While there does not exist even the slightest scrap of proof that the Domincans and/or Franciscans had a role in spreading hate and dissention about the Jesuits among the secular colonists, it would seem that they perhaps played a role in the expulsion of the Jesuits.
Click to expand...

Bingo, give that man a cigar! :icon_thumleft: These little "accusations" are not to be found in any written record for that is not how they were dispensed and circulated, but rather by whispers into the ears of already suspicious, jealous secular authorities. As evidence that this in fact took place, I point to the fact that it was the good Franciscans whom were appointed to take over the Jesuit missions of Sonora, and these Padres did their own searches for the possessions of the Jesuits.

Cactusjumper wrote
it gets us outdoors and gets the stink blowed off
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ROFLMAO :laughing9: :laughing7: ;D :D haven't heard that in years, my mother used to point it out as one of the good benefits of having to work outdoors on particularly windy nasty days! :icon_thumright:

Don Jose de la Mancha wrote
D)
Why was the resident Priest at Yecora soo agitated upon seeing my logo of Tayopa and insisted in my going to Yecora for a full night of talk of Tayopa and drinking coffee??
Click to expand...

I still hope to hear from you about this conversation sometime.... :notworthy: :icon_thumleft:
Oroblanco
 

Hi Roy,

"As for pointing out some "bad actors" we could list Fathers Garrucho, Keller, Tello SJ for starters, and take note that one of the key conditions for ending the Pima revolt of 1751 was that Keller must leave the area. It only takes a handful of bad actors for a whole group to get a bad name, however unjustly."

Historically you are correct here, but the bad blood between Luis Oacpicagigua and Father Keller had nothing to do with anything but pride.

Luis came to Father Keller's mission at Suamca, ostensibly, to get support for a mission against the Apache. For some reason, he may have been in his cups, Father Keller believed he was attempting to incite rebellion and made some colorful comments. I believe it went something like calling Luis "a Chichimec dog better suited to wearing coyote skin and loincloth and to chasing rabbits and rodents in the hills."

That seems like a worthwhile life to me, so I have no idea why Luis took such offense. To make the peace, Keller was remove but returned one year later and served the mission until his death. Luis went on to participate in the rebellion and ended up dying in jail.

On the other hand, perhaps the good father simply declined to share his wine with Luis. As you can see, Keller was a crusty old bird and probably let his drinking do his talking.

Take care,

Joe
 

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