cactusjumper
Gold Member
Mike,
Were you unable to find your source for the Serra story?
Thanks,
Joe
Were you unable to find your source for the Serra story?
Thanks,
Joe
The Peralta Stones
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gollum
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Hey Joe,
Haven't actually started looking for it yet (work). It was a book that referenced a letter from Serra to his superiors. What he toko to found the California Missions was not livestock or furniture, but Church Adornments. From my memory of the piece, what Serra did find was enough to put into operation several of the California Missions. It was also not nearly as much as the superiors had believed were there.
Also, has anybody read any of the works of Dr. Ronald Ives? One of his writings was called "Manje's Mercury Mines." Very interesting (especially considering this was during the same time he was wandering with Kino).
Best-Mike
Haven't actually started looking for it yet (work). It was a book that referenced a letter from Serra to his superiors. What he toko to found the California Missions was not livestock or furniture, but Church Adornments. From my memory of the piece, what Serra did find was enough to put into operation several of the California Missions. It was also not nearly as much as the superiors had believed were there.
Also, has anybody read any of the works of Dr. Ronald Ives? One of his writings was called "Manje's Mercury Mines." Very interesting (especially considering this was during the same time he was wandering with Kino).
Best-Mike
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Don Jose,
While I have no doubt that you have found something of great worth, history (at this point) is still unchanged. Once that happens in the public realm, and is accepted by the writers of that history, you will become part of it.
Natives around the world, who lose their sovereignty, have a collective habit of telling those who have come to power, what they believe they want to hear. Many times, because they tend to live in poverty, the stories are tied to their personal economics. In the end, it all boils down to keeping the rich close, so they will help the local economy as they work their way towards the treasure/mine.
Each and every time the treasure hunters come, they ask the natives for their help and explain what they are searching for. After a few hundred years, the natives know the stories better than those who are asking for their help. A tribal history/story is woven into the legends, and becomes "fact". Among many examples, I give you Coronado. No doubt, you yourself can add dozens more.
You are the answer as to why it's possible that the natives may be creating a false history.
On the other hand, it may all be true.
Take care,
Joe
While I have no doubt that you have found something of great worth, history (at this point) is still unchanged. Once that happens in the public realm, and is accepted by the writers of that history, you will become part of it.
Natives around the world, who lose their sovereignty, have a collective habit of telling those who have come to power, what they believe they want to hear. Many times, because they tend to live in poverty, the stories are tied to their personal economics. In the end, it all boils down to keeping the rich close, so they will help the local economy as they work their way towards the treasure/mine.
Each and every time the treasure hunters come, they ask the natives for their help and explain what they are searching for. After a few hundred years, the natives know the stories better than those who are asking for their help. A tribal history/story is woven into the legends, and becomes "fact". Among many examples, I give you Coronado. No doubt, you yourself can add dozens more.
You are the answer as to why it's possible that the natives may be creating a false history.
On the other hand, it may all be true.
Take care,
Joe
Oroblanco
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HOLA amigos,
Cactusjumper wrote
I respectfully disagree with your summation viz the bad blood between Keller and Oacpicagigua. There was certainly more to it than a simple insult. Here is what another rebel had to say before his execution (for his part in the rebellion)
Chihuahua made no mention of the pregnant woman whom had been kept in the stocks by Fr Tomas Tello SJ until she died, but Tello was among those padres who paid the "ultimate" price.
Note 1 - Mistreatment by the Padres is a common complaint amongst Amerindians, for anyone a member of the Mission whom was seen as "lazy" could be whipped for this infraction, or put into stocks, and other corporal punishments. These punishments were nothing out of the ordinary for the day in any European land, but to Amerindians un-accustomed to such treatment, it was nothing less than abuse. The Mission Indios were expected to WORK, and they seem to have interpreted this work as being done as SLAVES for the Padres; for confirmation we have the letters of Franciscan missionaries who replaced the Jesuits. Fr Garces wrote that the people were happy that they were not going to be forced to work for him.
I should also point out that Mission Indios were NOT free to leave the mission, once they had been baptized. *see note 2Anyone who did so, was then an Apostate of low order. Being so "trapped" in this "cage" may not seem too bad to us, with a reliable food supply and other benefits of "civilization" but to formerly wild and free people this was certainly not freedom.
Extract from letter of Fr Garces quote
In another letter written the same day, Garces wrote
If the reports of the Franciscans are to be believed, the Jesuits, for all their claims of success in proselytizing, had failed miserably in instructing the Pimas and Papagoes in the basics of Catholicism, let alone other education. Garces felt the Jesuits were too busy with their other labors.
What we have are two very divergent views of the Jesuit missionaries, the apologists and the Amerindians, with apparently no attempt from either side to understand how these events must have been seen by the other side. "Despite good intentions the mission system decimated and destroyed native peoples subject to it." --ROBERT ARCHIBALD
Director of the Western Heritage Center
Billings, Montana
*Note 2 Extract of letter of Jean De la PĂ©rouse, after visiting Franciscan missions in California; while this may seem irrelevant it is descriptive of virtually all Spanish & French missions.
Oroblanco
Cactusjumper wrote
I respectfully disagree with your summation viz the bad blood between Keller and Oacpicagigua. There was certainly more to it than a simple insult. Here is what another rebel had to say before his execution (for his part in the rebellion)
<Pedro de la Cruz Chihuahua, Santa MarĂa Suamca, November 29, 1751" (AGI, Guadalajara 419, Francisco Padilla Testimony, 3m-55, pages 28-35)
Chihuahua made no mention of the pregnant woman whom had been kept in the stocks by Fr Tomas Tello SJ until she died, but Tello was among those padres who paid the "ultimate" price.
Note 1 - Mistreatment by the Padres is a common complaint amongst Amerindians, for anyone a member of the Mission whom was seen as "lazy" could be whipped for this infraction, or put into stocks, and other corporal punishments. These punishments were nothing out of the ordinary for the day in any European land, but to Amerindians un-accustomed to such treatment, it was nothing less than abuse. The Mission Indios were expected to WORK, and they seem to have interpreted this work as being done as SLAVES for the Padres; for confirmation we have the letters of Franciscan missionaries who replaced the Jesuits. Fr Garces wrote that the people were happy that they were not going to be forced to work for him.
I should also point out that Mission Indios were NOT free to leave the mission, once they had been baptized. *see note 2Anyone who did so, was then an Apostate of low order. Being so "trapped" in this "cage" may not seem too bad to us, with a reliable food supply and other benefits of "civilization" but to formerly wild and free people this was certainly not freedom.
Extract from letter of Fr Garces quote
In another letter written the same day, Garces wrote
If the reports of the Franciscans are to be believed, the Jesuits, for all their claims of success in proselytizing, had failed miserably in instructing the Pimas and Papagoes in the basics of Catholicism, let alone other education. Garces felt the Jesuits were too busy with their other labors.
What we have are two very divergent views of the Jesuit missionaries, the apologists and the Amerindians, with apparently no attempt from either side to understand how these events must have been seen by the other side. "Despite good intentions the mission system decimated and destroyed native peoples subject to it." --ROBERT ARCHIBALD
Director of the Western Heritage Center
Billings, Montana
*Note 2 Extract of letter of Jean De la PĂ©rouse, after visiting Franciscan missions in California; while this may seem irrelevant it is descriptive of virtually all Spanish & French missions.
<from Jean F. G. De la PĂ©rouse, A Voyage Round the World Performed in the Years 1785, 1786, 1787 and 1788 by the Bousole and Astrolabe (New York, 1968) vol. 1, p. 442.>
Oroblanco
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Roy,
It was a tough world back then. If people were to survive, they needed to be cruel. It worked the same for both sides. Anytime such a system exists there will be those who fail to exercise their power in a way that will not get someone killed. It worked the same for both sides.
Charges and counter charges were flying back and forth after the rebellion. The governors, the Jesuits, the Franciscans, the Indians......you name it, they were all blaming someone else. It seems likely that the society and times may have had something to do with the uprising. I don't believe it can be laid on any single doorstep.
It is not so simple as you paint the picture. The Jesuits only slowed the inevitable end for the native population down a bit. Those who assimilated came out best in the long run. Those who didn't, are now begging for scraps on every street in Mexico. In the best of worlds, it would be different. Unfortunately, we don't live in the best of worlds.
Take care,
Joe
It was a tough world back then. If people were to survive, they needed to be cruel. It worked the same for both sides. Anytime such a system exists there will be those who fail to exercise their power in a way that will not get someone killed. It worked the same for both sides.
Charges and counter charges were flying back and forth after the rebellion. The governors, the Jesuits, the Franciscans, the Indians......you name it, they were all blaming someone else. It seems likely that the society and times may have had something to do with the uprising. I don't believe it can be laid on any single doorstep.
It is not so simple as you paint the picture. The Jesuits only slowed the inevitable end for the native population down a bit. Those who assimilated came out best in the long run. Those who didn't, are now begging for scraps on every street in Mexico. In the best of worlds, it would be different. Unfortunately, we don't live in the best of worlds.
Take care,
Joe
lamar
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Dear gollum;
You profess to having deeply researched the Jesuits, especially how they interacted with others in the Primeria Alta region. Fair enough, my friend, but perhaps it may behoove you to research the inner workings of the Roman Catholic and the responsibilities and duties of Her members.
You wrote:
Lets' say that I concede the point of the Jesuits mining activities (I don't, but for arguments sake, lets just say so for now). Let's say that the Jesuits' only source of income were their commercial endeavors, bequeathments from new members, bequeathments from dying people, and tithes from living people. Let's say that through those acts, they became quite wealthy (as an Order and not individually). Say they turned their profits into Church Adornments for the greater glory of God (as per their founder Father Francis Xavier SJ). The magnificent Church Adornments were written about by several Jesuits after returning to Europe post-expulsion.
Hardly any of those adornments were found when the Spanish arrested them on 26 June 1767. I have even done something I doubt very many others have done. I looked at which Franciscans came immediately after the Jesuits, and what they reported. Turns out that Fray Junipero Serra was the man who took possession of the Jesuit Church supplies from some missions in order to found the California Missions. In his own words, he states what he got, and it wasn't much (compared to what the Jesuit Fathers wrote about).
My beliefs regarding Jesuit Treasures comes only after much research.
First, the church adornments are not purchased by the parish priests, rather the adornments are funded 100% by the parish patrons. Always. The embellishment and maintanence of all parish churches relies wholly on it's congregation to provide forit . It's the priest's duty to inform the patrons when the monetary needs have been met and when they haven't. Also, if the congregation wishes to add something to the parish church, say a new stained glass window, bids are gathered and then funds are raised by the members of the congregation. I've personally been a part of many of these fund drives in the past, so I've a pretty fair idea about how they work, my friend.
The Jesuits didn't say to one another "Hey! We need to adorn this church! Let's grab some picks and shovels and dig up enough silver and gold to make this thang happen!" It doesn't work that way, although it'd be nice it did. No, what the Jesuits did was exactly the same as all other clergy have done since the beginning of the Christian church. They exhorted the members of the church to dig deep into their pockets and provide the necessary funding and/or materials and/or labor to meet the projected goals.
In other words, the adornments were procured thru licit and acceptable means. What happened to them after the Jesuits were expelled is anyone's guess. I harbor serious doubts that the Jesuits secreted them away somewhere, as when the Jesuits returned they had to start from scratch all over again. In other words, if they would have hidden the adornments, what would have been stopping the returning Jesuits from recovering them? Please remember the Order was suppressed but it was never dissolved, therefore it would have been quite simple to maintain the records of where the treasures lay hidden in the archives of their European monasteries until such time that they could return and recover them?
I tend to agree with Cactusjumper in that they were mostly likely robbed by the locals. It seems to be the most likely conclusion and the temptation must have been very strong indeed. Also, not so much as a chalice or candlestick has ever been recorded as being recovered to date, therefore it seems highly unlikely that the Jesuits managed to stash the treasures of their churches somewhere. Also, if they would have done so, they would have taken a huge risk as surely the incoming Franciscans and Dominicans would have used that action to levy further accusatons at them. The Jesuits weren't a bunch of 1gnorant European peasants who had just walked in from the cabbage fields, my friend. They knew the laws inside and out and they knew what the reprecusions would have been for an action such as that.
Your friend;
LAMAR
You profess to having deeply researched the Jesuits, especially how they interacted with others in the Primeria Alta region. Fair enough, my friend, but perhaps it may behoove you to research the inner workings of the Roman Catholic and the responsibilities and duties of Her members.
You wrote:
Lets' say that I concede the point of the Jesuits mining activities (I don't, but for arguments sake, lets just say so for now). Let's say that the Jesuits' only source of income were their commercial endeavors, bequeathments from new members, bequeathments from dying people, and tithes from living people. Let's say that through those acts, they became quite wealthy (as an Order and not individually). Say they turned their profits into Church Adornments for the greater glory of God (as per their founder Father Francis Xavier SJ). The magnificent Church Adornments were written about by several Jesuits after returning to Europe post-expulsion.
Hardly any of those adornments were found when the Spanish arrested them on 26 June 1767. I have even done something I doubt very many others have done. I looked at which Franciscans came immediately after the Jesuits, and what they reported. Turns out that Fray Junipero Serra was the man who took possession of the Jesuit Church supplies from some missions in order to found the California Missions. In his own words, he states what he got, and it wasn't much (compared to what the Jesuit Fathers wrote about).
My beliefs regarding Jesuit Treasures comes only after much research.
First, the church adornments are not purchased by the parish priests, rather the adornments are funded 100% by the parish patrons. Always. The embellishment and maintanence of all parish churches relies wholly on it's congregation to provide forit . It's the priest's duty to inform the patrons when the monetary needs have been met and when they haven't. Also, if the congregation wishes to add something to the parish church, say a new stained glass window, bids are gathered and then funds are raised by the members of the congregation. I've personally been a part of many of these fund drives in the past, so I've a pretty fair idea about how they work, my friend.
The Jesuits didn't say to one another "Hey! We need to adorn this church! Let's grab some picks and shovels and dig up enough silver and gold to make this thang happen!" It doesn't work that way, although it'd be nice it did. No, what the Jesuits did was exactly the same as all other clergy have done since the beginning of the Christian church. They exhorted the members of the church to dig deep into their pockets and provide the necessary funding and/or materials and/or labor to meet the projected goals.
In other words, the adornments were procured thru licit and acceptable means. What happened to them after the Jesuits were expelled is anyone's guess. I harbor serious doubts that the Jesuits secreted them away somewhere, as when the Jesuits returned they had to start from scratch all over again. In other words, if they would have hidden the adornments, what would have been stopping the returning Jesuits from recovering them? Please remember the Order was suppressed but it was never dissolved, therefore it would have been quite simple to maintain the records of where the treasures lay hidden in the archives of their European monasteries until such time that they could return and recover them?
I tend to agree with Cactusjumper in that they were mostly likely robbed by the locals. It seems to be the most likely conclusion and the temptation must have been very strong indeed. Also, not so much as a chalice or candlestick has ever been recorded as being recovered to date, therefore it seems highly unlikely that the Jesuits managed to stash the treasures of their churches somewhere. Also, if they would have done so, they would have taken a huge risk as surely the incoming Franciscans and Dominicans would have used that action to levy further accusatons at them. The Jesuits weren't a bunch of 1gnorant European peasants who had just walked in from the cabbage fields, my friend. They knew the laws inside and out and they knew what the reprecusions would have been for an action such as that.
Your friend;
LAMAR
lamar
Bronze Member
- Aug 30, 2004
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Dear Oroblanco;
I tend to agree with this statement:
What we have are two very divergent views of the Jesuit missionaries, the apologists and the Amerindians, with apparently no attempt from either side to understand how these events must have been seen by the other side. "Despite good intentions the mission system decimated and destroyed native peoples subject to it." --ROBERT ARCHIBALD
Director of the Western Heritage Center
Billings, Montana
The Spaniards should have just tried to completely extreminate the natives with gunpowder, whiskey and smallpox, and lacking that, offered the Indians the choice of living on a reservation or being executed. Oops, wait a sec. That's what our government did, wasn't it? It seems that Mr. Archibald has a very selective memory when it comes to the treatment of the indigenous peoples, doesn't he? He should look take a close look around his own backyard and see just how the North American Indians have thrived in Montana before he makes a statement such as that one.
Your friend;
LAMAR
I tend to agree with this statement:
What we have are two very divergent views of the Jesuit missionaries, the apologists and the Amerindians, with apparently no attempt from either side to understand how these events must have been seen by the other side. "Despite good intentions the mission system decimated and destroyed native peoples subject to it." --ROBERT ARCHIBALD
Director of the Western Heritage Center
Billings, Montana
The Spaniards should have just tried to completely extreminate the natives with gunpowder, whiskey and smallpox, and lacking that, offered the Indians the choice of living on a reservation or being executed. Oops, wait a sec. That's what our government did, wasn't it? It seems that Mr. Archibald has a very selective memory when it comes to the treatment of the indigenous peoples, doesn't he? He should look take a close look around his own backyard and see just how the North American Indians have thrived in Montana before he makes a statement such as that one.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Oroblanco
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Lamar wrote
Do you deny that the Amerindian populations decreased dramatically, after being introduced into the Mission system? We already know about the epidemics that followed, but as compared with areas without missions, the losses were higher. Lower birth rates can also be documented. What mission tribe today, retains their tribal religion to any degree, or their culture, tribal history even their language or clothing habits? The attempt to Catholicize and also Europeanize the Amerindians seems to have a worse effect even than your described "brutal" methods employed by other agents, such as the US government. At least the tribes residing in Montana still retain their language, despite the efforts of Jesuit missionaries amongst them. (DeSmet, Hoecken foremost of several)
Isn't it funny, that Jesuit Father DeSmet, whom courageously worked amongst the hostile and dangerous Plains tribes, should also have discovered a secret gold mine, the location of which he kept secret until his death? We know so by his own personal letter written to his brother. Some Jesuits were interested in the minerals of the country, though we can only guess their motives to be for the greater good, they were human beings. I must respectfully disagree with mi amigo Cactusjumper about the Pima revolt, at least from the view of the Pimas involved, they had been mistreated by the Jesuit fathers. I would also point out that the punishments meted out were more severe for Indios (as noted by De La PĂ©rouse) than would be found in any European country. To the Spanish and Jesuits the revolt must have seemed an unreasonable reaction, but it was bad enough to the Pimas to cause these peaceable folk to rise in rebellion and risk everything.
I must admit that I didn't even desire to get back into this, but like some others here it is irritating to have blanket denials of misconduct when we know differently. Today the Society of Jesus denies ever having any mines and/or treasures in the American Southwest, but such denials have the effect of making the Society appear to be lying, when compared with the evidence, however thin.
Oroblanco
Do you deny that the Amerindian populations decreased dramatically, after being introduced into the Mission system? We already know about the epidemics that followed, but as compared with areas without missions, the losses were higher. Lower birth rates can also be documented. What mission tribe today, retains their tribal religion to any degree, or their culture, tribal history even their language or clothing habits? The attempt to Catholicize and also Europeanize the Amerindians seems to have a worse effect even than your described "brutal" methods employed by other agents, such as the US government. At least the tribes residing in Montana still retain their language, despite the efforts of Jesuit missionaries amongst them. (DeSmet, Hoecken foremost of several)
Isn't it funny, that Jesuit Father DeSmet, whom courageously worked amongst the hostile and dangerous Plains tribes, should also have discovered a secret gold mine, the location of which he kept secret until his death? We know so by his own personal letter written to his brother. Some Jesuits were interested in the minerals of the country, though we can only guess their motives to be for the greater good, they were human beings. I must respectfully disagree with mi amigo Cactusjumper about the Pima revolt, at least from the view of the Pimas involved, they had been mistreated by the Jesuit fathers. I would also point out that the punishments meted out were more severe for Indios (as noted by De La PĂ©rouse) than would be found in any European country. To the Spanish and Jesuits the revolt must have seemed an unreasonable reaction, but it was bad enough to the Pimas to cause these peaceable folk to rise in rebellion and risk everything.
I must admit that I didn't even desire to get back into this, but like some others here it is irritating to have blanket denials of misconduct when we know differently. Today the Society of Jesus denies ever having any mines and/or treasures in the American Southwest, but such denials have the effect of making the Society appear to be lying, when compared with the evidence, however thin.
Oroblanco
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gollum
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lamar said:
Lamar,
Your post makes no sense whatsoever. Maybe if you read my post a little closer, you would see that you basically parroted what I said. I stated that the Jesuits paid for their adornments through commercial enterprises (agriculture and cattle ranching), bequeathments from dying patrons, bequeathments from Jesuit newbies, AND FROM TITHES. I thought that pretty much covered all legitimate forms of Jesuit Income. I just thought that I did miss one other form of legitimate income: stipends from the Spanish Government (even though they were not much, and payment was rarely made in a timely manner).
I don't claim to know everything about the Catholics (in general) or the Jesuits (specifically). What theories and beliefs I have (about their hidden wealth), are based solely on inconsistencies between their published manuscripts and written history. I tend to believe what the people who were there stated. More so, than those who came a couple of hundred years later, who had an agenda to push. In case you are wondering what I meant by that, someone else had stated a theory to me a while back, that I am agreeing with more and more: That Jesuit Historians' (like Father Polzer SJ) had an agenda that loomed over all their writings, that was to get Padre Kino Cannonized.
Best-Mike
Twisted Fork
Hero Member
There was an old rag still available for reading in the public archives in Phoenix back in the early eighties that I remember brushing through that held a page or two concerning the Pimas going into Santa Fe. I believe the source of the information came from the Indios who claimed that there was a basement section of the mission in Santa Fe that held somewhere in the amount of 24,000 pounds? of gold ingots and much more silver. Two weeks before the uprising, the monks gathered up all of this bullion as well as a large collection of adornments; including a hollow life size staute of a Saint that was filled with gold dust. All of these articles were loaded into ox carts and moved to a Kiva for safe keeping. The last that was seen of this treasure and the monks was when they disappeared from sight as they journeyed West along the Black River from out of the Santa Fe area. They were never seen nor heard from again.
It is also interesting that someone mentioned the name "Don Luis". Also at the same point in time when some of my first dowsing and map work began in the field in Arizona, a spirit guide that I came to know for the several years that I was in the area, introduced himself to me as one "Don Luis". Though I never saw him, his information of an automatic fashion, directed my willow and subconscious readings to numerous authentic sites both in Arizona and Utah. He is the one who taught me about the map stone bread trail associated with each concealed portal originating as an Indian mine. He left my presence permanently after a near death experience with a rather large and viscous female lioness that tried to jump me after walking a little to close to her two cubs as I passed a thicket on the trail back to the truck. Working with him required no thinking on my part as it was as though I were being lead along in a state of half sleep, half awake; my feet just seemed to know where to go and many things that came before me on the trail were as some sort of timeless memory. One day I was hunting like anyone else and the next thing I knew I was walking straight to each Spanish marker every trip, every time. I long as I didn't allow greed to come to mind, the spirit continued like there was something sacred about it all. Don Luis was his name. 10 years it lasted. Go figure.
It is also interesting that someone mentioned the name "Don Luis". Also at the same point in time when some of my first dowsing and map work began in the field in Arizona, a spirit guide that I came to know for the several years that I was in the area, introduced himself to me as one "Don Luis". Though I never saw him, his information of an automatic fashion, directed my willow and subconscious readings to numerous authentic sites both in Arizona and Utah. He is the one who taught me about the map stone bread trail associated with each concealed portal originating as an Indian mine. He left my presence permanently after a near death experience with a rather large and viscous female lioness that tried to jump me after walking a little to close to her two cubs as I passed a thicket on the trail back to the truck. Working with him required no thinking on my part as it was as though I were being lead along in a state of half sleep, half awake; my feet just seemed to know where to go and many things that came before me on the trail were as some sort of timeless memory. One day I was hunting like anyone else and the next thing I knew I was walking straight to each Spanish marker every trip, every time. I long as I didn't allow greed to come to mind, the spirit continued like there was something sacred about it all. Don Luis was his name. 10 years it lasted. Go figure.
lamar
Bronze Member
- Aug 30, 2004
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Dear Oroblanco;
You wrote:
Do you deny that the Amerindian populations decreased dramatically, after being introduced into the Mission system? We already know about the epidemics that followed, but as compared with areas without missions, the losses were higher. Lower birth rates can also be documented. What mission tribe today, retains their tribal religion to any degree, or their culture, tribal history even their language or clothing habits? The attempt to Catholicize and also Europeanize the Amerindians seems to have a worse effect even than your described "brutal" methods employed by other agents, such as the US government. At least the tribes residing in Montana still retain their language, despite the efforts of Jesuit missionaries amongst them. (DeSmet, Hoecken foremost of several)
I deny nothing, my friend. Instead, what I tend to do is to allow history to speak for itself. Simply think of *integration* a bit and think of how many native Americans you happen to run across on a daily basis in North America and then think how many you happen to run across in Mexico, Central and South America, my friend. There honestly is no basis for comparison because Latin America is chockful of native Americans at virtually every level of society, whereas, even though the North Americindians culture has been somewhat preserved, albeit in a highly corrupted form, they are not truly a part of the mainstream society.
The conquest of the Americas was imminent and nothing or nobody could have halted the advance of other cultures and the only real question is, how well did our European ancestors assimilate the natives into our own culture in order to insure their continued existence. The Jesuits weren't overly concerned with preserving the natives ancestorial history, they were much more concerned with keeping the natives alive so they would not be faced with genocide from the secular colonists.
To put it bluntly, most colonists and settlers wanted to exterminate the native American culture and this is evidenced many, many times in the writings of the day. The Jesuits preserved the native Americans as a people and not so much as a culture. Of course the natives' own religious beliefs and deities had to go, there was simply no other way around that fact. It all stemmed from the belief system that the Western European society system was the best and that all others should either adapt to it or perish along the way. The Jesuits, knowing they could not fight the European settlers and stand a chance of winning, instead chose to assist the natives in becoming more Eurpeanized.
The Jesuits succeeded in their labors and this can evidenced in the survival of the native American peoples of today. Their cultures may have disappeared but their bloodlines have carried forward and it's my very humble opinion that we all owe the Jesuits a huge THANK YOU for their heroic efforts in this regard
Your friend;
LAMAR
You wrote:
Do you deny that the Amerindian populations decreased dramatically, after being introduced into the Mission system? We already know about the epidemics that followed, but as compared with areas without missions, the losses were higher. Lower birth rates can also be documented. What mission tribe today, retains their tribal religion to any degree, or their culture, tribal history even their language or clothing habits? The attempt to Catholicize and also Europeanize the Amerindians seems to have a worse effect even than your described "brutal" methods employed by other agents, such as the US government. At least the tribes residing in Montana still retain their language, despite the efforts of Jesuit missionaries amongst them. (DeSmet, Hoecken foremost of several)
I deny nothing, my friend. Instead, what I tend to do is to allow history to speak for itself. Simply think of *integration* a bit and think of how many native Americans you happen to run across on a daily basis in North America and then think how many you happen to run across in Mexico, Central and South America, my friend. There honestly is no basis for comparison because Latin America is chockful of native Americans at virtually every level of society, whereas, even though the North Americindians culture has been somewhat preserved, albeit in a highly corrupted form, they are not truly a part of the mainstream society.
The conquest of the Americas was imminent and nothing or nobody could have halted the advance of other cultures and the only real question is, how well did our European ancestors assimilate the natives into our own culture in order to insure their continued existence. The Jesuits weren't overly concerned with preserving the natives ancestorial history, they were much more concerned with keeping the natives alive so they would not be faced with genocide from the secular colonists.
To put it bluntly, most colonists and settlers wanted to exterminate the native American culture and this is evidenced many, many times in the writings of the day. The Jesuits preserved the native Americans as a people and not so much as a culture. Of course the natives' own religious beliefs and deities had to go, there was simply no other way around that fact. It all stemmed from the belief system that the Western European society system was the best and that all others should either adapt to it or perish along the way. The Jesuits, knowing they could not fight the European settlers and stand a chance of winning, instead chose to assist the natives in becoming more Eurpeanized.
The Jesuits succeeded in their labors and this can evidenced in the survival of the native American peoples of today. Their cultures may have disappeared but their bloodlines have carried forward and it's my very humble opinion that we all owe the Jesuits a huge THANK YOU for their heroic efforts in this regard
Your friend;
LAMAR
lamar
Bronze Member
- Aug 30, 2004
- 1,341
- 46
Dear Oroblanco;
I find it odd that Fr. DeSmet was ordered westwards from Missouri in 1845 AD by Bp. Rosati, only after Bp. Rosati had recieved many pleas, PLEAS mind you, for a *blackrobe* from the Nez Perce and the Flathead Indians. It would seem that the *blackrobes* were much more popular among the natives than some of our modern historical writers would like for us to believe, my friend. The natives knew back then that their only true hope for continued survival was to adapt to the missionary life, which was far better than the alternatives, those being starvation or getting shot.
Also, as a point of fact, Fr. DeSmet did not discover a gold mine, rather he discovered very rich gold deposits, the exact location of which he never devulged, and the reason he cited for refusing to divulge the location of the deposits was because he didn't wish for anyone *to disturb his children*, that being the Amerindians living in the Black Hills region of North Dakota. He spoke of the Black Hills deposits publicly only once in his lifetime, that being at a banquet which was given in his honor at St. Louis University, in St. Louis, Mo. (a Jesuit funded and run university, by the way) around 1866 AD. He took the secret with him to his grave. That was a very honorable man, in my very humble opinion.
Your friend;
LAMAR
I find it odd that Fr. DeSmet was ordered westwards from Missouri in 1845 AD by Bp. Rosati, only after Bp. Rosati had recieved many pleas, PLEAS mind you, for a *blackrobe* from the Nez Perce and the Flathead Indians. It would seem that the *blackrobes* were much more popular among the natives than some of our modern historical writers would like for us to believe, my friend. The natives knew back then that their only true hope for continued survival was to adapt to the missionary life, which was far better than the alternatives, those being starvation or getting shot.
Also, as a point of fact, Fr. DeSmet did not discover a gold mine, rather he discovered very rich gold deposits, the exact location of which he never devulged, and the reason he cited for refusing to divulge the location of the deposits was because he didn't wish for anyone *to disturb his children*, that being the Amerindians living in the Black Hills region of North Dakota. He spoke of the Black Hills deposits publicly only once in his lifetime, that being at a banquet which was given in his honor at St. Louis University, in St. Louis, Mo. (a Jesuit funded and run university, by the way) around 1866 AD. He took the secret with him to his grave. That was a very honorable man, in my very humble opinion.
Your friend;
LAMAR
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Ladies & Gentlemen? No one is responding to my post in which I indicated involvement of the Jesuits in mining
Remember, these were NOT the Mission Jesuits, but a secret group, answerable only to Rome.
Don Jose de La Mancha
Remember, these were NOT the Mission Jesuits, but a secret group, answerable only to Rome.
Don Jose de La Mancha
lamar
Bronze Member
- Aug 30, 2004
- 1,341
- 46
Dear Real de Tayopa;
I am sorry, my friend, but I must have overlooked your post regarding that issue. The reason why I feel unqualified to reply to it is because I do not believe that such a group of Jesuits ever existed.
First, the kingdoms of Spain and Portugal were the spiritual subjects of the Roman Catholic Church and as such, if the church needed financial support from these these kingdoms, the Vatican had to but ask. And so, stealing from the kingdoms of Spain and Portugal would have been paramount to stealing from themselves, my friend.
Next, the very logistics of such an endeavor would have been mind-boggling, even in those days. A great many people seem to think that the Vatican is the home of intrigue, but in truth the Vatican is naught but a huge sieve. Information of a sensitive nature does not stand the slightest chance of remaining a secret within the Vatican's walls. The reason for this lies in the tenants of the faith, that being, to tell the truth, always. It was because of secret rituals and doings that got the Templars dissolved and the Vatican has always insisted on transparency among Her members, and most assuredly among Her religious Orders.
Also, the Jesuits were not the most popular kids on the block, as far as the others Orders were concerned. All a member of the Domnicans or the Franciscans had to do was to smell a whiff of a conspiracy and it would have been shouted throughout the streets of Europe faster than one could utter "Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam". Even the Cardinals and the various Popes were not overly friendly to the Jesuits or their cause, as the Jesuits tended to stir up trouble and thus they were often looked at with some suspicion and even a bit of hostility at times.
Also, there exists no surviving evidence of this ever having occurred, nor can one draw any parallel lines from existing evidence to support this theory.
Your friend;
LAMAR
I am sorry, my friend, but I must have overlooked your post regarding that issue. The reason why I feel unqualified to reply to it is because I do not believe that such a group of Jesuits ever existed.
First, the kingdoms of Spain and Portugal were the spiritual subjects of the Roman Catholic Church and as such, if the church needed financial support from these these kingdoms, the Vatican had to but ask. And so, stealing from the kingdoms of Spain and Portugal would have been paramount to stealing from themselves, my friend.
Next, the very logistics of such an endeavor would have been mind-boggling, even in those days. A great many people seem to think that the Vatican is the home of intrigue, but in truth the Vatican is naught but a huge sieve. Information of a sensitive nature does not stand the slightest chance of remaining a secret within the Vatican's walls. The reason for this lies in the tenants of the faith, that being, to tell the truth, always. It was because of secret rituals and doings that got the Templars dissolved and the Vatican has always insisted on transparency among Her members, and most assuredly among Her religious Orders.
Also, the Jesuits were not the most popular kids on the block, as far as the others Orders were concerned. All a member of the Domnicans or the Franciscans had to do was to smell a whiff of a conspiracy and it would have been shouted throughout the streets of Europe faster than one could utter "Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam". Even the Cardinals and the various Popes were not overly friendly to the Jesuits or their cause, as the Jesuits tended to stir up trouble and thus they were often looked at with some suspicion and even a bit of hostility at times.
Also, there exists no surviving evidence of this ever having occurred, nor can one draw any parallel lines from existing evidence to support this theory.
Your friend;
LAMAR
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Don Jose,
Perhaps the reason there has been no discussion about your "secret society" among the non-secret Jesuits in the New World, is because there are no facts to research. That's the nature of such a group.......it's secret!
Because the evidence for Jesuit mining and treasure is so circumstantial and.....thin, something else is needed to explain the "invisible" hands that had to be working in the background. The slightly understood "Laymen" working within the Society Of Jesus makes for the perfect fall guy(s).....as long as you don't dig too deeply into the details.
History, as it is being taught in America, is changing every day. A long existing fable, that Americans purposely introduced disease into Native American Tribes, is being placed in school textbooks.....as fact.
There are letters, the originals still exist, which clearly expose the truth about this lie. I have no doubt that many here believe the story.
There is no need to supply me with the sources and details, as I have read them. I won't believe them a second time around either. To make a lie believable, you must first destroy the truth. While there are bad apples in every barrel, the Jesuits in the New World did more good than evil........much more.
Mange, in his diary, details the advancement of the natives in every aspect of what the Jesuit's were said to be teaching. He was not alone in detailing that successful education. "To make a lie believable, you must first destroy the truth."
On the other hand, you may all be correct.
Oops, I see I am just behind Lamar with my reply. Please go back to the bottom of the previous page to read his reply.
Take care,
Joe
Perhaps the reason there has been no discussion about your "secret society" among the non-secret Jesuits in the New World, is because there are no facts to research. That's the nature of such a group.......it's secret!
Because the evidence for Jesuit mining and treasure is so circumstantial and.....thin, something else is needed to explain the "invisible" hands that had to be working in the background. The slightly understood "Laymen" working within the Society Of Jesus makes for the perfect fall guy(s).....as long as you don't dig too deeply into the details.
History, as it is being taught in America, is changing every day. A long existing fable, that Americans purposely introduced disease into Native American Tribes, is being placed in school textbooks.....as fact.
There are letters, the originals still exist, which clearly expose the truth about this lie. I have no doubt that many here believe the story.
There is no need to supply me with the sources and details, as I have read them. I won't believe them a second time around either. To make a lie believable, you must first destroy the truth. While there are bad apples in every barrel, the Jesuits in the New World did more good than evil........much more.
Mange, in his diary, details the advancement of the natives in every aspect of what the Jesuit's were said to be teaching. He was not alone in detailing that successful education. "To make a lie believable, you must first destroy the truth."
On the other hand, you may all be correct.
Oops, I see I am just behind Lamar with my reply. Please go back to the bottom of the previous page to read his reply.
Take care,
Joe
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Gentlemen,
Here is a site related to fake gold bars:
http://www.fake-gold-bars.co.uk/how/how.pdf
The Gold that Mike shows on his site, as well as here, was brought into this country by a Mexican, in an effort to sell it. If it were authentic, it would be worth much more than the price of the gold.
Joe Ribaudo
Here is a site related to fake gold bars:
http://www.fake-gold-bars.co.uk/how/how.pdf
The Gold that Mike shows on his site, as well as here, was brought into this country by a Mexican, in an effort to sell it. If it were authentic, it would be worth much more than the price of the gold.
Joe Ribaudo
lamar
Bronze Member
- Aug 30, 2004
- 1,341
- 46
Dear cactusjumper;
I tend to agree with the overall concensus that the bars which were reputed to have been a part of a Jesuit treasure cache were indeed fakes, most likely produced with the intention of defrauding some poor gullible buyers. The people who verify the authenticity of historical caches such as that one certainly know their business!
Your friend;
LAMAR
I tend to agree with the overall concensus that the bars which were reputed to have been a part of a Jesuit treasure cache were indeed fakes, most likely produced with the intention of defrauding some poor gullible buyers. The people who verify the authenticity of historical caches such as that one certainly know their business!
Your friend;
LAMAR
Twisted Fork
Hero Member
Real de Tayopa said:
Oh they were real alright; they are the very reason the mines are still hidden throughout the West and why you can't find them. These were the hand picked prodigies of the Pope, having been raised in the monasteries of Spain and assigned specific commissions that concerned no one but the Pope and his political ties to numerous Kingdoms. The butterball version you see is for public posterity and designed to keep the stupid, stupid. Their silence was a requirement compared to agents in the field who are never acknowledged dead or alive. The topic here is gold and lots of it. Secret assassins undermining evil worldwide. They knew no barriers amongst men in the service of their one King the Pope; representative of God himself. This is why they were feared by all Royalty. Masters.....
Ok in reply sort of to post 521 above,Gollum , here is a section from a map showing the Martydom of Father Saeta, dated 1695, made by Father Kino. Useing a magniying glass I can determine that the lettering is quite different and distinct from what I believe are modern letters showing on your gold or silver ingot. True the ingot and map were not made by and inscribed by the same persons, but the lettering should be in the same time peroid, and very similar.Attachments
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Twisted Fork said:
Mr. Fork,
You seem to be speaking with some authority on this subject. Can you tell us your source for this knowledge?
Thank you in advance,
Joe Ribaudo
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