The Peralta Stones

[gollum]

OH MY GOD!!!!!!​

Lamar made a joke! I can hardly believe my eyes! HAHAHA I don't take offense, and not one thing I have done or posted falls under the "pot calling the kettle black" category. All I have done was to take historical documents whose authenticity nobody (but you) questions, and quote them regarding the Jesuits. I have never insulted them as some have. I know their body of work. I also know that there is a lot left out of history that in many cases can be somewhat brought to light in the words of the Jesuit Fathers themselves, and by finds that I know to be authentic.

You say that the Jesuit Fathers would NEVER have gambled. Maybe you should read Father Charles Polzer SJ's Book "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain" (Tucson, 1976) He recounts the stories. Also, the DRSW Master Database (microfiches of original letters between Jesuits in the new world):

http://saint-denis.library.arizona.edu:4000/cgi-bin/museumLogon.cgi


Is it slander when I quote the words of the Jesuit Father Juan (Johan) Nentvig when he gives us the reasons for the Churches possessing great riches (In Rudo Ensayo)?

http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/rudo/index.html

Although in these miserable times opposing opinions have arisen among critics, some praising and others condemning the care and expense of adorning and maintaining the temples with all possible dignity and decency for the reverence due to the Supreme Maker of all creation, I will not enter into a dispute over the subject, but I believe in what Our Mother, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, has always praised, approved, practised, and in a certain fashion glorified in the lives of its Saints. One learns from the lessons of St Ignatius of Loyola, father and founder of the Society of Jesus, when he says in praise of that Holy Patriarch, “Templorum nitor, catechismi traditio, concionum ac Sacramentorum frequentia ab ipso incrementum accepere.”I shall say that my heart rejoices with delight, and I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter any well adorned church. I must let the admiration argument prevail, a maiori ad minorem [from the highest to the lowest], for if we who are more rational than the Indians find incentive and devotion in temples that outshine others by their glowing adornments and will choose those in preference to the slovenly ones for Mass, Sermon, Confession, and Communion, how much more must the Indians be in need of such stimuli when nothing of what they hear takes hold upon them unless it enters through their eyes with some sort of demonstration of the Supreme Creator about whom the preacher is speaking? So, when they see that the house of God is well ordered, clean, and beautifully adorned, they perceive at once the magnificence of its Owner and Ruler. I praise the missionaries of Sonora for imitating their great Father St. Ignatius.

.....or from the same Jesuit Father, when he describes some of the Church Adornments (In Rudo Ensayo):

All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well. There are also choruses of Indian singers, and masses are celebrated nearly every Sunday, on days of obligation and on the principal festival days with vespers the evening before when required. And there are processions and other ceremonies of the Holy Church which are accomplished with all possible dignity in order to present a visual display of the majesty of our Holy Religion to the neophytes so that they may remain impressed with its splendor and be attracted to it. Their disposition piae affectionis is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears.

Is it slander, when I quote Father Joseph Och SJ from his book (Missionary in Sonora; the travel reports of Joseph Och, S.J., 1755-1767)?

The cathedral church possesses an exceedingly rich treasure in its gold and silver church appointments. In Spain and the Indies the prebendaries and other canons do not have their choir at the high altar. Rather, not far from the church entrance is a large, high partition in front of their seats, and from the choir to the high altar for their sole use runs an aisle enclosed on both sides by railings. These railings run through the entire cathedral church and are of the finest cast silver, each amounting to at least eight hundred weight. The colossally large, silver hanging lamp inspires awe in all visitors. It is more than eight feet across and is very thick and massively decorated. The chains with finger-thick silver links are so heavy that when a ladder is leaned against them they do not move. A man can quite comfortably walk around the edge of the lamp. The decoration is rather ponderous, yet its manufacture by a goldsmith [sic] is supposed to have cost two thousand pesos. I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrances, and ciboria of finest gold. Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service.........

......or when I again quote the very same Jesuit Father regarding gold knowledge:

....After this the dishes were ready for use in cookery. .... many were worth more than a ducat because of the thousands of gold scales found mixed in with the clay. This gold could not have been collected through washing without an expenditure of labor in excess of the cost. It was true gold as I proved with a bit of quicksilver with which it immediately formed an amalgam....

to understand why I quote this passage, you need to remember the dates in the title of the book (1755 - 1767). Those are very important dates, since the Precept against mining (or possessing ANY knowledge of mining) was one of those restated in the precepts issued in 1747! There was little doubt that Father Och SJ didn't know about the precept against mining or knowledge of mining. You have to ask yourself why Father Och just happened to be carrying Mercury? The ONLY use for Mercury is to amalgamate precious metals from their rock host. I don't think that Father Och was on his way to manufacture thermometers. By using the Mercury he was carrying to amalgamate the gold scale out of the peasant's dishes, he was displaying his knowledge of mining technology, thereby committing the sin of Disobedience. A very serious thing indeed. Here is the Precept again:

Rule #4. No one will work mines. This includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly. The intention of the precept is to include all forms of knowledge or interpretations that could even fall within the same precept.

You state that:

I imagine that life in the missions became a bit tedious at times and perhaps some Jesuits managed to get their hands on a deck of cards and were playing whist or whatever in the evenings. The Superior General probably caught wind of it and blew it all out of proportion and hence the precept prohibiting card playing. As I recall, gambling was not mentioned in the precept, nor should it have been necessary as all Roman Catholics were prohibited from wagering.

RIDICULOUS! Not only was the precept originally given, it had to be restated and specified due to Jesuit Fathers following the WORD of the Precept and not its' INTENTION! Your apologist roots are showing! Even Father Polzer SJ amditted these facts.

also.............

We cannot however, see any of the determental effects of these same Jesuits. We find no vast hidden treasure caches, nor do we find any incriminating physical evidence. You like to point to the splendor of the colonial churches and yet in doing so you tend to show a narrow minded view of Roman Catholicism in general. If you had put in your homework in areas where it would best suited you, then perhaps you would have discovered that the decoration and splendor of churches and cathedrals refers back to some of the earliest Church teachings, which tells us that as Christians, we should show humility and modesty in all things except in the Church, which must be decorated and adorned to the very best of our abilities, as it is the house of God and therefore we must show it the proper respect and adoration which it requires.

1st quote in red: You mean evidence like the published works of the Jesuit Fathers themselves? Please read above quotes.

2nd quote in red: I do my homework very well. I would not post something that is a flight of imagination. I also don't postulate ridiculous theories. The Jesuit Fathers themselves put down on paper the many splendors they saw in all the churches in the Northern New World. Those splendid adornments all but disappeared by 1767, when Spanish Soldiers took the Jesuit Fathers by complete surprise (yeah right). You have previously stated that those adornments may have been stolen by civilians. REALLY? I have a little problem with that. Namely; when the Spanish Soldiers arrested the Jesuits, the splendors were already gone. Do you mean to say that civilians stole all the church adornments from under the nose of the Jesuit Fathers who had no idea they were about to be arrested? Sorry Charlie.

Yes, we agree on everything. Everything except what we post here. HAHAHA You still haven't answered my question (third time).

Best-Mike

 

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[gollum]

Joe,

You stated:

I spent several hours with Chuck Kenworthy over a very extended lunch at the Village Inn Restaurant in Apache Junction on 2/5/95. We discussed the Stone Maps and Chuck said that Eugene Lyon was the researcher that had provided the Spanish records on the King of Spain's rules for coded signs and symbols to be used on maps plus trail markers and monuments. He indicated that he had received copies of this information and not originals. He states this also on Page 15 of his book, "Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow, & Sun Signs".

I don't know your friend, and I won't think to doubt what he says, buuuuuuuuuuuuut........the last part of your statement regarding where CK published that (namely, page 15 of his book Treasure Signs ~ ~). I have that book. I just took it out and reread the entire first part of the book. I can find no reference to Dr Lyon in it. I have scanned and attached it. Maybe it is somewhere else in this book, or maybe another of his books. I will look through all of them tonight just to make sure.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Joe,

I won't argue about what your friend told you, but here is the story in CK's own words from his book "Treasure Signs Symbols Shadow & Sun Signs"

Best-Mike

 

[Twisted Fork]

Interesting and not coincidence:

An ancient Jesuit site I am aware of deep in the primitive area of the back Uinta Mountains here in Utah, comes up ringing bells with these notes. There is a head marker of a carved Trident, as one leaves the main incoming burro trail and heads South East 3 1/2 miles to an ancient tree that was long ago topped and scared with fire. I have seen several sites where a topped and burned tree still remains, about 18 feet away from these concealed bottle neck portals. The tree position is refered to on the maps as the eagle's perch, overlooking the treasure. There are mines, and then there are Church Mines/Vaults. The Treasure of Santa Fe is reference to the location of a mountain(s) where a mine amongst other mines is singled out and deemed as sacred storage for the Church and it's purposes alone. Any Catholic Don would not dare to disturb such a hold, even though he may gain access to other digs realised in the same regions, his apparent ability to understand the maps surrounding concealed mines of his brothers before him would be revealing enough and self explanatory. Part of the code in understanding these maps is to look at the land as if it were still under water and that the mountains are islands with choice coves to approach from. Nautical Measures are used clear up until one approaches the mine site itself, then canon range and the sequence that breaks down to paces; 8 sequences leading to pieces of 8. To pirate another's hold; thus the use of a pirates map code and graphics. Here the eagle becomes a parrot perched on the shoulder of mine.

 

[Furness]

Sheesh Guys,

I didn't expect this reaction just from saying i didn't think the Jesuit's were as Lilly white as friend Lamar would have us believe,

i will admit Joe my reading has not been Jesuit specific,
mostly general histories of various Latin countries in which the Jesuits were only part of that history, my main interests and the books i have are in a much diffrent area, T, Net is just a sideline, i have also read some of the books that Daryl frieson (sp?) has links to on his site, including the one Oro has taken his quotes from and that quoted by Gollum,

and i have probably read most of friend Lamar's posts on here over the last year or so, and whilst i can appreciate his defence of the Jesuits it has appeared to me he has jumped in defending them at the slightest thing, and each time insisting they could do no wrong, almost a blanket denial of any wrong doing by them, and quoting the edicts they had to obey,
if he had been less vehement in his denial of any wrong doing on their part I'm sure he would not have had a fraction of the flack he has had from other T, Net members,

i also know he has an almost encyclopedic knowledge of the Jesuits and their work and i admire him for that and have no problem with any of what he has written or any doubts that it is accurate historically, apart from a couple of very minor items not pertaining to the Jesuits

but none of what he has written or stated makes me believe they are as white as the driven snow, i do not believe that is humanly possible for an organisation as large as the Jesuits were and still are to be that good or disciplined, Oro points this out very succinctly in his last post,

you ask can i quote what they did that was bad, it depends on your terms of reference as to what you consider bad and the period, also which side of the fence you are standing at the time,
many of the things we would consider bad now with regard to their treatment of the Indians was normal at that time, so i cannot say yes what they did was bad,

i have no doubt that to a north European protestant in those days every Indian convert to Catholicism would be classed as a foul deed on the Jesuits part, and more so at any co hersion on the part of the priests, hell here on my side of the pond we even beheaded or hung members of the royal family for having the wrong religion at the wrong time,

but there are many questions raised that have even now still not been answered,
is there any truth in the assertion that they were planning to buy land in Bolivia and start their own Jesuit colony, ( I've read four diffrent versions of this story),

and if so how were they going to pay for it,

regarding mining i have also read in recent weeks that for a period of two years they were put in charge of the mines at Potosi in Bolivia,
i know the mines were privately owned, hundreds of them all in the same mountain, so why were they put in charge, what was their remit for that period,
it is estimated that during this period over 25,000 Indians died in the mines there, although this is a small number out of the estimated 2 to 8 million over a 400 year period, so many died that slaves from Africa were bought in to replace them as they were running out of Indians,

as i said it depends on your definition of bad, but friend Lamar's posts have not indicated specific areas but more an overall statement that they did no wrong,
i would have at least expected a bum covering exercise saying that perhaps some were guilty of not following the edicts as closely as they should have,

but even in his last posts he uses the excuse that they were probably written by an older Jesuit who was verging on senility who had missunderstood the card playing,

there are many books on the history of Latin America and many stories where the Jesuits are mentioned and what they did and perhaps a great deal of it is anecdotal or heresay, but there are so many that i cannot believe it is all lies by Jesuit detractors, as most of these are none religious histories and as far as i have been able to ascertain not written with any religious bias, a great many of the stories may have been passed down and plagiarised over the years, but all of them ?

even today over here we still celebrate guy Fawkes who was a Jesuit and planned on blowing up the houses of Parliament, he was burnt at the stake, and as he was caught in the act that is pr oven,
but my thoughts on that are come back guy Fawkes all is forgiven,

Lamar you are correct we did have some awful punishments, the waggon wheel they tied them to was a tumbrul/tumbril originally a french word for the cart prisoners being taken to the guillotine were taken on, and probably the origin of the English word tumble,
and that was nothing you only got an head ache or dizzy from that, try keel hauling, or a hundred lashes with a cat o ninetails, small pieces of lead on the end of a whip, very few survived either of those,
and hung drawn and quartered was in the most part only used for treason or something similar , which generally meant someone in high office, generally the poor were only hung,

the reason it is not mentioned as you say is because it is on public record and we don't have to spend most of our time denying that these things happened,
they are all in the PRO in London and you can search for free, they are not hidden away in the Vatican like so many of the catholic and Jesuit records are,
hiding things are what start conspiracy theories,

and i must admit one of my ex wife's distant relatives had the distinction of being the last person in England to be hung for stealing a sheep,
and i can hear Oro muttering it serves him right !!! he he he

Furness

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
You accusingly wrote:
Lamar made a joke! I can hardly believe my eyes! HAHAHA I don't take offense, and not one thing I have done or posted falls under the "pot calling the kettle black" category. All I have done was to take historical documents whose authenticity nobody (but you) questions, and quote them regarding the Jesuits. I have never insulted them as some have. I know their body of work. I also know that there is a lot left out of history that in many cases can be somewhat brought to light in the words of the Jesuit Fathers themselves, and by finds that I know to be authentic.

You say that the Jesuit Fathers would NEVER have gambled. Maybe you should read Father Charles Polzer SJ's Book "Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain" (Tucson, 1976) He recounts the stories. Also, the DRSW Master Database (microfiches of original letters between Jesuits in the new world):

http://saint-denis.library.arizona.edu:4000/cgi-bin/museumLogon.cgi


Is it slander when I quote the words of the Jesuit Father Juan (Johan) Nentvig when he gives us the reasons for the Churches possessing great riches (In Rudo Ensayo)?

http://southwest.library.arizona.edu/rudo/index.html


Quote
Although in these miserable times opposing opinions have arisen among critics, some praising and others condemning the care and expense of adorning and maintaining the temples with all possible dignity and decency for the reverence due to the Supreme Maker of all creation, I will not enter into a dispute over the subject, but I believe in what Our Mother, the Holy Roman Catholic Church, has always praised, approved, practised, and in a certain fashion glorified in the lives of its Saints. One learns from the lessons of St Ignatius of Loyola, father and founder of the Society of Jesus, when he says in praise of that Holy Patriarch, “Templorum nitor, catechismi traditio, concionum ac Sacramentorum frequentia ab ipso incrementum accepere.”I shall say that my heart rejoices with delight, and I feel more inclined to worship and praise Our Lord when I enter any well adorned church. I must let the admiration argument prevail, a maiori ad minorem [from the highest to the lowest], for if we who are more rational than the Indians find incentive and devotion in temples that outshine others by their glowing adornments and will choose those in preference to the slovenly ones for Mass, Sermon, Confession, and Communion, how much more must the Indians be in need of such stimuli when nothing of what they hear takes hold upon them unless it enters through their eyes with some sort of demonstration of the Supreme Creator about whom the preacher is speaking? So, when they see that the house of God is well ordered, clean, and beautifully adorned, they perceive at once the magnificence of its Owner and Ruler. I praise the missionaries of Sonora for imitating their great Father St. Ignatius.

.....or from the same Jesuit Father, when he describes some of the Church Adornments (In Rudo Ensayo):


Quote
All the churches have side altars, appropriate ornaments, and chalices of silver and in three instances of gold. There are other sacred vessels such as ciboriums, monstrances, large and small candlesticks and crosses, and nearly all churches have silver statues of the Virgin, organs, bassoons, oboes, and bells, not only at the principal missions but at the dependent ones as well. There are also choruses of Indian singers, and masses are celebrated nearly every Sunday, on days of obligation and on the principal festival days with vespers the evening before when required. And there are processions and other ceremonies of the Holy Church which are accomplished with all possible dignity in order to present a visual display of the majesty of our Holy Religion to the neophytes so that they may remain impressed with its splendor and be attracted to it. Their disposition piae affectionis is to believe through their eyes rather than their ears.

Is it slander, when I quote Father Joseph Och SJ from his book (Missionary in Sonora; the travel reports of Joseph Och, S.J., 1755-1767)?


Quote
The cathedral church possesses an exceedingly rich treasure in its gold and silver church appointments. In Spain and the Indies the prebendaries and other canons do not have their choir at the high altar. Rather, not far from the church entrance is a large, high partition in front of their seats, and from the choir to the high altar for their sole use runs an aisle enclosed on both sides by railings. These railings run through the entire cathedral church and are of the finest cast silver, each amounting to at least eight hundred weight. The colossally large, silver hanging lamp inspires awe in all visitors. It is more than eight feet across and is very thick and massively decorated. The chains with finger-thick silver links are so heavy that when a ladder is leaned against them they do not move. A man can quite comfortably walk around the edge of the lamp. The decoration is rather ponderous, yet its manufacture by a goldsmith [sic] is supposed to have cost two thousand pesos. I omit mention of the many thick, large silver candlesticks, monstrances, and ciboria of finest gold. Suchlike are found in proportion and abundance in all churches, even those in the smallest villages for the glorious Divine service.........

......or when I again quote the very same Jesuit Father regarding gold knowledge:


Quote
....After this the dishes were ready for use in cookery. .... many were worth more than a ducat because of the thousands of gold scales found mixed in with the clay. This gold could not have been collected through washing without an expenditure of labor in excess of the cost. It was true gold as I proved with a bit of quicksilver with which it immediately formed an amalgam....

to understand why I quote this passage, you need to remember the dates in the title of the book (1755 - 1767). Those are very important dates, since the Precept against mining (or possessing ANY knowledge of mining) was one of those restated in the precepts issued in 1747! There was little doubt that Father Och SJ didn't know about the precept against mining or knowledge of mining. You have to ask yourself why Father Och just happened to be carrying Mercury? The ONLY use for Mercury is to amalgamate precious metals from their rock host. I don't think that Father Och was on his way to manufacture thermometers. By using the Mercury he was carrying to amalgamate the gold scale out of the peasant's dishes, he was displaying his knowledge of mining technology, thereby committing the sin of Disobedience. A very serious thing indeed. Here is the Precept again:


Quote
Rule #4. No one will work mines. This includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly. The intention of the precept is to include all forms of knowledge or interpretations that could even fall within the same precept.

You state that:


Quote
I imagine that life in the missions became a bit tedious at times and perhaps some Jesuits managed to get their hands on a deck of cards and were playing whist or whatever in the evenings. The Superior General probably caught wind of it and blew it all out of proportion and hence the precept prohibiting card playing. As I recall, gambling was not mentioned in the precept, nor should it have been necessary as all Roman Catholics were prohibited from wagering.


RIDICULOUS! Not only was the precept originally given, it had to be restated and specified due to Jesuit Fathers following the WORD of the Precept and not its' INTENTION! Your apologist roots are showing! Even Father Polzer SJ amditted these facts.

also.............


Quote
We cannot however, see any of the determental effects of these same Jesuits. We find no vast hidden treasure caches, nor do we find any incriminating physical evidence. You like to point to the splendor of the colonial churches and yet in doing so you tend to show a narrow minded view of Roman Catholicism in general. If you had put in your homework in areas where it would best suited you, then perhaps you would have discovered that the decoration and splendor of churches and cathedrals refers back to some of the earliest Church teachings, which tells us that as Christians, we should show humility and modesty in all things except in the Church, which must be decorated and adorned to the very best of our abilities, as it is the house of God and therefore we must show it the proper respect and adoration which it requires.

1st quote in red: You mean evidence like the published works of the Jesuit Fathers themselves? Please read above quotes.

2nd quote in red: I do my homework very well. I would not post something that is a flight of imagination. I also don't postulate ridiculous theories. The Jesuit Fathers themselves put down on paper the many splendors they saw in all the churches in the Northern New World. Those splendid adornments all but disappeared by 1767, when Spanish Soldiers took the Jesuit Fathers by complete surprise (yeah right). You have previously stated that those adornments may have been stolen by civilians. REALLY? I have a little problem with that. Namely; when the Spanish Soldiers arrested the Jesuits, the splendors were already gone. Do you mean to say that civilians stole all the church adornments from under the nose of the Jesuit Fathers who had no idea they were about to be arrested? Sorry Charlie.

Yes, we agree on everything. Everything except what we post here. HAHAHA You still haven't answered my question (third time).

Best-Mike



My question is "Who are you gonna believe? Me, or those lying documents?"
Your can't tell you a lie friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

HAHAHA ANOTHER E! I think I'm gonna faint!

Furness,

Upon reading Lamar's theory regarding Jesuit Card Playing, I THINK that may have been his attempt at humor that we didn't catch at first. I would think that coming from the land of Monty Python, you would appreciate a Dry Wit. HAHAHA

If you haven't yet, you should look up the works of Sir Percifal Fawcett. He was one of the premiere South American Explorers (until he and his son were beheaded by some Indians). They actually disappeared, but in the 1930s (I think), some Indian Chief showed Fawcett's Sons shrunken head to another explorer (if I remember the story correctly).

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Good morning Mike,

I have, and have read each of the books you referenced. I quoted from them a few years ago on the LDM Forum.

I wrote:

[I spent several hours with Chuck Kenworthy over a very extended lunch at the Village Inn Restaurant in Apache Junction on 2/5/95. We discussed the Stone Maps and Chuck said that Eugene Lyon was the researcher that had provided the Spanish records on the King of Spain's rules for coded signs and symbols to be used on maps plus trail markers and monuments. He indicated that he had received copies of this information and not originals. He states this also on Page 15 of his book, "Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow, & Sun Signs".]

In my quote of Roger's post, I attempted to separate what Kenworthy told him, and what was in his book. Not very well it seems. My Bad!

I have also tried, as Lamar has, to explain the rich trappings that could be found in even the meanest mission. The Jesuits spent very little on themselves, other than for spices & chocolate. I would recommend "Wandering Peoples" by Cynthia Radding to get a better feel for the wealth and finances of the missions. As a side note, I don't believe Ms. Radding was a fan of the Jesuits.

I would suggest that you pay particular attention starting on page 70. Here is a quote from page 81:
"The religious cult absorbed considerable community resources. Jesuits adorned mission chapels with saints' images, chalices, organs, and embellished cloth as a means of imparting Christian doctrine to the Indians in their care."

The Jesuits were prolific writers. With that as a consideration, there is no doubt that you will be able to find cases where they bent the rules, or possibly broke them completely. The problem comes, IMHO, when you try to advance those few passages into a vast Jesuit treasure legend.

The Spanish were experts at extracting treasure and secrets from anyone. They left no stone unturned. Even cesspools were searched. They found nothing, not even stories of treasures being spirited away. They were shocked that they came up empty handed.

I would like to see a reasonable explanation of why the priests put their names on these treasures. In those days, their names would have no effect on value. The only reason that makes sense, is that the marcos were being set aside to pay the priests for the missions goods.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
Yes, it is humorous, yet at the same time, it's very true. As you may have already gathered, the CYA system was in full effect and force during that time period, especially in the New World colonies. Every single complaint to the regional officers was lodged, recorded then presented to the approriate party for corrective action.

If a colonist complained that they witnessed a Jesuit playing cards, then a complaint was recorded then the Superior General informed. Perhaps an investigation ensued and perhaps not. Either way, there would have a been a regulation, or precept written, expressly forbidding the Jesuits to play cards. As a point of fact, missionaries were not supposed to play with dice or cards as these were considered to be the toys of Satan, dice because the Roman soldiers cast lots with dice for Christ's robe and cards because of the stigma that became attached to all picture playing cards by the Church starting about 1450 AD. This was because playing cards were being used as divining tools by gypsies and other fortune tellers. These playing cards eventually evolved into the Tarot cards that we are familiar with today.

Jesuits were permitted to play chess, which was considered to be a noble and intellectual game as well as several other board games, most of which have been lost to history.

The truth of the matter is that no one knows why the there was a precept concerning the Jesuits playing cards. I do know that the gambling was never mentioned, but it would seem that if there were gambling involved, there should have been another precept condemning wagering and forbidding all forms of it, in detail.

Of course the Jesuits may have been merely WATCHING others playing cards and NOT wagering nor advising the card players on how to wager, however if card playing was sinful then so would watching others playing cards be just as sinful. This philosophy comes directly from the Gospel According to St. Matthew 18:9 and others parts of the Gospel:

et si oculus tuus scandalizat te erue eum et proice abs te bonum tibi est unoculum in vitam intrare quam duos oculos habentem mitti in gehennam ignis

Translation of the Word from Latin:
And if your eye scandlizes [Causes you to sin] cast it out[remove it] from you. For it is better to go thru life with one eye than to go into He11 with two eyes
If other words, if one is witness to a sin, and in turn does nothing to correct it, then one is as guilty as if they had committed the sin themselves. From this precept we can assume that CYA was being practiced centuries before our modern military machine popularized it and then finetuned it into the artform that it is today

The same may also be stated about mining. We know there were many complaints lodged against the Jesuits by the colonists, accusing them of illicit mining activities, which were NOT taken lightly by the secular authorities. There ensued many investigations into the matter and in virtually every case, the acusations proved to be false and no physical evidence was ever gathered against the Jesuits. .

Therefore, it was logical that a precept be written to condemn the practice of mining and prohibiting the Jesuits from having any knowledge of any and all such activities connected with mining. Of course, the precept does not mean that the Jesuits could not have any knowledge of mining in general, for they were among the world's first mining engineers, as geology was the first cohesive natural scientific area of study and naturally the Jesuits led the way in this arena. Once more, the precept was a classic case of CYA.

As far as the churches being richly adorned, this was indeed a very common practice with ALL Roman Catholic churches of the era and it was quite common for the congregation members to donate heavily towards the decoration and adorning of their church. This comes from the pre-medieval church practice of attempting to re-create Heavon on Earth. That the churches were heavily adorned does not mean that illicit mining was taking place, it merely means that there were many wealthy patrons of those churches.

We know that the early secular colonists profitted heavily from mining and agriculture in the region, therefore it follows reason that they would have donated heavily in order to keep things running smoothly. As a point of fact, the Franciscan churches were more heavily adorned than the Jesuit ones yet we never hear of the Franciscans doing anything wrong. Odd, isn't it?

Why single out one certain Order for accusations? Why accuse the Jesuits and not include the Franciscans or the Domincans? Perhaps it was because those two Orders tended to follow and enforce the secular laws of the lands in which their missions were situated? In other words, they seemed to be much more adept at playing the political game than the Jesuits were and they tended to not want to upturn the applecart.

And while it's true that individual Franciscans and Domincans spoke out against the cruelities inflicted upon the natives, these men tended to be the exceptions to the rule rather than the norm. On the other hand, it seems that the very large part of the Jesuits spoke out against the colonists and they did so frequently and with great fervor. The archives are filled to overbrimming with these documents. Once again, we can see the CYA machine at work.

Once again, the precepts themselves mean nothing, unless we know the original reason pretaining to why the precept was written. I've read many rules of the many Orders and each has it's own Rules, some of which many may find odd or unusual, and in fact they ARE odd and unusual. For instance, in one Order it was expressively forbidden to touch the fur of any animal unless the animal was a beast of burden, such as a mule, or foodstock, such as a lamb.

In another Order, it was forbidden to carry any fish in one's bare hands and it could only be handled and prepared for consumption by someone not of the Order. Weird, huh? And why were these rules and precepts originally written? Who on God's green Earth knows The reasons have been lost to history, if they ever existed in the first place and all that remains are the Rules themselves.

The evidence seems to be highly circumstantial, and it is best to either build upon these suppositions, or pursue another avenue.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
I particularly liked how she worded:
The religious cult absorbed considerable community resources.

Does this mean that I, as part of the largest organized religion in the world, am actually a member of a cult Someone ought to inform the Pope, I think...
Your friend who is writing a letter to Rome;
LAMAR

 

[Furness]

Mike I'm glad you only THOUGHT it was an attempt at humor,

Lamar my friend DONT give up your day job !

yes i have read the story about the city of Z fawcet claimed he had found and that his sons shrunken head was shown to a journalist ? by an Indian many years later ,

also sometime in the 60's i read one of his books i think it was called travels through South America, which was a long horse ride, virtually from Patagonia up to as far as Central America published in about 1904 but apart from a couple of the pen sketches that he used to start each chapter which i remember, most of the story is a distant memory,

i also like your avatar Mike, john cleese, the ministry of silly walks,

regards
furness

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
One thing which can not be satisfactorily explained to me is why, if the KING of Spain, not a mere member of the Royal house mind you, but the KING HIMSELF, ordered that ALL mines be approriately marked, are there no such signs in South or Central America. Why only the region of Northern Mexico and more precisely, the Southwestern USA? There exists many times more gold and silver mines in the whole of South America than ever existed in Northern Mexico and the Southwestern USA, yet no signs or symbols may be located in those regions. If I recall correctly, Southern Mexico, Central and South America were all a part of the Spanish Empire, with the notable except of Brazil and several small coastal colonies. Why then would this Royal edict be ignored in so many different parts of the colonies? In fact, it seems that only ONE area, that being the colony of New Spain, complied with the Royal Edict. This is fairly difficult to explain, in my very humble opinion.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

Beyond that, there are many, many original maps of New Spain which have the locations of mines clearly marked on them. The journals of the time give precise locations of mines, including the diaries of the Jesuits. It seems that some were unaware of the kings orders.

When trying to justify years of searching for Jesuit treasure, every little tidbit of information which hints at it's existence, becomes monumental.......you will pardon the pun.

I believe that the greatest treasure that will be found, will be the information that is being passed back and forth between the opposing opinions on this subject.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
Yes, my friend, it does seem just a tad unusual that the King of Spain had supposedly ordered all mines to be hidden and marked in such a cryptic manner with strange symbols, yet so many supposedly *secret* mines were plainly and accurately marked on colonial maps as such. Not only were they marked as mines, many times the people who drew those maps even had the temerity to state what the principle ores were, Heaven forbid!

I guess the old adage "there's always some who don't get the word" holds true, at least in this particular case. Even more strange is that those maps were either drawn by Jesuit cartographers or by cartographers who were trained by the Jesuits.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
Also, another curiousity which has been bothering me is the fact that the first Spanish Royal Edict which outlined the marking of mines with all of those arcane symbols was penned in 1584 AD, which is not unusual in and of itself until we stop and think that the Jesuits weren't even in the New World until after 1609 AD, some 25 YEARS after the edict was written.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Just received confirmation from my friend Roger, that he must have "fat fingered" that five into the page #. What he was told by Chuck Kenworthy, concerning Dr. Lyon, is not what is found on page 11. (Notes were taken at the time)

As I told him, Kenworthy is not the first, nor will he be the last, treasure hunter to pad his resume to impress the little people. Roger was already a big fan, so there was no other reason to lie to him.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear cactusjumper;
Also, another curiousity which has been bothering me is the fact that the first Spanish Royal Edict which outlined the marking of mines with all of those arcane symbols was penned in 1584 AD, which is not unusual in and of itself until we stop and think that the Jesuits weren't even in the New World until after 1609 AD, some 25 YEARS after the edict was written.
Your friend;
LAMAR

Dear Lamar,

I am unsure of the point you are trying to make, as the Royal Edict was for all Spanish subjects in the New World. The date of the Jesuit arrival does not seem pertinent.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
Yes, the date of the actual edict should not be a subject of discussion until we notice that certain authors wrote that the Jesuits were supposedly the ones who enforced it. My question is, how could they have enforced something when they were not in the area until 25 years later?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

I am interested! Do you have a source for that information? Names of the authors or the books?

I had never read that, that I can remember, but would be interested in getting a copy(s).

Thanks,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
Here is another tidbit of historical information, but it's not something you will read much about, even though it's no big secret, rather it seems to be a subject which most modern Roman Catholics either do not know exists, or are somewhat uncomfortable discussing. This being the theological war that the Jesuits started against practically everybody within the Roman Catholic church. They were engaged in a virtual state of theological war with some of the oldest and most respected Orders in the Church, the two most prominent ones being the Franciscans and the Dominicans, within 40 years of the formation of their Order.

Rome was literally awash with debates and accusations both from the Jesuits and against the Jesuits on everything from divine grace to free will. It would seem that the Jesuits, by virtue of their extensive educations, were questioning every facet of Roman Catholic dogma and doctrine and in doing so, they were going head to head with the very best theologians in the Church.

And their debates, discourses, discussions and arguments were not contained within the walls or Rome, either. The Jesuits hurled accusations of heresy and blasphemy at fellow co-missionaries with reckless abandon in the courts of China, Japan, Africa and throughout Europe. The principal assailants remained the Dominicans with the Franciscans hot on their heels and together they really gave the Jesuits more trouble than just a little bit.

The Jesuits tended to allow the local populaces the freedom of semi-maintaining their own deities whilst structuring Christianity around the locals own ancestorial beliefs. In other words, the Jesuits believed in slowly integrating the natives to Christianity. This concept was, of course, unthinkable to the ultra-conservative Dominicans and Franciscans. They accused the Jesuits of fashioning their own religion to suit the locale and in many cases this was almost true. The Jesuits really stretched the bounds of Christian dogma as far as the natives were concerned.

The problem first revealed itself whenJesuit scholar named Fr. Luis de Molina wrote a book challenging the existing principles of mankind and free will called "Concordia". It took him the better part of 30 years to complete the work and when he finished the Dominicans had a field day with it. The first copies had not even came back back from the presses in 1585 and the Dominicans were screaming to have the book banned without review and Fr. Molina censured.

Naturally, the actions of the Dominicans flung the gates open wide and into the gap stepped other Jesuit theologians and of course the Dominicans rushed in and not wishing to feel left out, they were soon joined by the Franciscans en masse and before long, it was game on!

The combined Dominicans and Franciscans fought the Jesuits tooth and nail over every sentence and paragrapgh and over time this tended to make for very bad blood between the Jesuits and the other Orders. To cut to the chase, the Jesuits embarked upon their mission to the New World with enemies already firmly entrenched.

The accusations against the Jesuits continued almost non-stop from 1585 until their suppression in 1767 and it lasted for 60 years. When the Jesuits were restored, it was a decidely more tame and mainstream Jesuit Order which followed in the footsteps of their forebearers. Something changed within the Order and while again, there is nothing in writing, it seems that the Jesuits were told to cool their jets and not cause any more trouble.

Please understand this next statement very carefully, my friend. While there does not exist even the slightest scrap of proof that the Domincans and/or Franciscans had a role in spreading hate and dissention about the Jesuits among the secular colonists, it would seem that they perhaps played a role in the expulsion of the Jesuits.

I find it odd that the Jesuits were accused of mining gold and silver in areas where none existed! That must have been a good trick, to be able to mine something from the ground where there is not any to begin with, yet this is what took place, and not only in the New World colonies, but also in the colonies of the Philipines and the Orient.

Granted, the secular colonists had no communications with one another between the continents, yet the Dominicans and the Franciscans did.They communicated regularly with their brethen back in Europe and especially Rome. And so, how could it have been possible for the secular colonists in the Philipines to accuse the Jesuits of mining ilict gold there without knowing that the same accusations were being leveled at the Jesuits in the Americas?

There exists only two logical answers if we were to exclude coincidence, my friend. One possibility is that the
Jesuits really were illicitly mining gold and silver, however there is no physical proof of this, and they were investigated quite extensively. The second logical possibility is that someone, or some group, started the rumors and they were feeding the secular colonists misinformation.

Again, there is nothing concrete and there will probably never be any evidence to back up this theory. The implications are simply damning, yet we can look at historical evidence and note a decide coldness that the other missionary Orders showed towards the Jesuits.

Who knows, perhaps some day an enterprising young Jesuit seminarian will stumble upon this post and start researching the possibility and write a paper on it? Stranger things have happened, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR