Dear gollum;
You wrote:
I don't get mad when someone doesn't believe me. I completely understand it. I only get p'ed when it gets personal to me someone who is not here to defend themselves
My answer to that statement is:
"Hello pot! Meet Mr. Kettle!"
In other words, one should check the condition of their own house before making comments about the houses of others. As I recall, you've been fairly harsh on the Jesuits without them being at liberty to defend themselves, either. Think about it, my friend.
Gambling: You should know that the Roman Catholic church frowns on ALL on all forms of gambling that are not expressly designed for charity. In other words, going to Las Vegas and playing blackjack or craps is considered as sinful, yet buying 10 raffle tickets, the proceeds of which are being used to purchase materials for new church pews, is not. It all depends on form and intent, my friend.
Jesuits were never reputed to have been gamblers. Why that particular precept was installed is beyond me, yet there exists many plausible explanations. Perhaps the Superior General was growing old and a bit senile in his later years? Most likely, someone complained to the Superior General and the Superior General in turn went a bit overboard. I will assume that you were in the military, and life in a Roman Catholic Order is very similiar in that regard, my friend.
I imagine that life in the missions became a bit tedious at times and perhaps some Jesuits managed to get their hands on a deck of cards and were playing whist or whatever in the evenings. The Superior General probably caught wind of it and blew it all out of proportion and hence the precept prohibiting card playing. As I recall, gambling was not mentioned in the precept, nor should it have been necessary as all Roman Catholics were prohibited from wagering.
The prohibition on mining was also most probably a knee-jerk response to queries from the Governor, who was receiving news from the secular colonists that the Jesuits were illegally mining gold & silver. We must always bear in mind that the Jesuits were not on friendly terms with the colonists and they were often accused of being Indian lovers and other such things.
Yes, the Jesuit missions became self-sustaining. Yes, the Jesuit missions became commercially viable and at times, profitable enterprises. Yes, the Jesuits recieved payment in return for the goods the missions provided to the region, the country and the Empire. Yes, the Jesuits grew wealthy from these enterprises, but we must remember this is what they were SUPPOSED to do in the first place.
The King of Spain envisioned a land of loyal and dutiful subjects, striving towards spiritual fulfillment whilst tilling the soil and tending the flocks, in much the same manner as the serfs were doing throughout Western Europe at the time. Yes, it was the feudal system and no, I do not wish to debate the merits and demerits of it, it simply was the was it was back then.
The King of Spain also viewed the Jesuits as a group who could meet those ends and that is why he bade them to colonize and proselytize the Americas. As cohesive individuals, we can see for ourselves the impacts that these highly focused and singularly driven men produced. We can see it in the populations of Northern Mexico and the Southwestern United States, in the successes of the region and in the education of the populaces.
We cannot however, see any of the determental effects of these same Jesuits. We find no vast hidden treasure caches, nor do we find any incriminating physical evidence. You like to point to the splendor of the colonial churches and yet in doing so you tend to show a narrow minded view of Roman Catholicism in general. If you had put in your homework in areas where it would best suited you, then perhaps you would have discovered that the decoration and splendor of churches and cathedrals refers back to some of the earliest Church teachings, which tells us that as Christians, we should show humility and modesty in all things except in the Church, which must be decorated and adorned to the very best of our abilities, as it is the house of God and therefore we must show it the proper respect and adoration which it requires.
The Jesuits were extremely well educated and also very highly skilled men with the additional ability of being able to pass on their knowledge and skills to others, those being the neophytes of their missions. A typical Jesuit mission was a minature typical European village, with all manner of goods and services being provided, from bakeries to carpenters to blacksmiths and so on.
And so, if a colonist needed a animal shod, he took it to the local Jesuit mission and likewise if he required a building to be constructed, he employed stone masons from the local Jesuit mission, just as he would have done back in Europe. As the Jesuits became more successful, their views of a more democratic society were in direct opposition to the colonists, who tended to lean heavily upon the feudal system which ensured a steady and free source of labor.
And yes, the Jesuits collected money from the labors of thier charges, just as they would have done in Europe and yes, their wealth grew in proportion to the success of the individual mission, and yes, the Jesuits turned around and invested the money back into the mission society and used a portion of those funds to establish new missions.
Also, while all of this was going on, it was the Jesuits who stood between the natives and the colonists, sometimes at the cost of their lives. This is highly documented, in various archives throughout the world, my friend. And yes, the Jesuits believed in discipline and yes, some natives were whipped for various transgressions, and yes this was very cruel, much more so than having a victim drawn and quartered or being tied to the wheel of a cart then whipped through town, as our own fun-loving British ancestors were wont to do. Now there was a group who believed in punishment! Yet, oddly enough we never seem to hear anything about that, do we?
You've continually slandered the Jesuits as an organization without so much as the slimmest piece of physical evidence at your disposal, and yet when I question the credibility of a certain person based upon that person's OWN writings, I am supposedly attacking that persons character?
Your friend;
LAMAR
To illegally mine in New Spain, and then take the gold/silver and place your name on it was suicidal. The Jesuits were very good at raising cattle, and crops. The took the fruits of that labor, pretty much native labor, and sold it to the mine owners. They were paid in gold and silver.
s.
