The Peralta Stones

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Concerning Chuck Kenworthy and his veracity, I have no "dog in the fight" but see attacks on his character as a rather base tactic, and only tends to cast doubt on the motives of the person(s) doing the character assassination. There is an ancient Arab proverb which is appropriate to consider when we are weighing the testimonies of persons we do not know personally;

Examine what is said, not him who said it

The Society of Jesus has plenty of apologists and defenders today, but the historical record in the American southwest does show that at least SOME members of the society were guilty of some excesses and even engaged in illegal mining, making use of Indio laborers as if they were slaves, beating of the disobedient and/or those perceived to be lazy and shirking their duties. We have been over this ground before. The guilty parties may or may not have had the sanction of the Church in their activities, but this point is academic.

Please do continue gentlemen, just hope we can get past this particular rift.

Oroblanco

 

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[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
I didn't attack Mr. Kenworthy's character, as, once again, I do not know the man, yet I am able to read and comprehend. In light of this I can state that Mr. Kenworthy's books are much more fiction than fact. Perhaps they were meant to be taken thus, I honestly do not know, however I would like to insert a very healthy note of caution to anyone who wishes to use the contents of one of Mr. Kenworthy's tombs as an aid to finding treasure:
"Caveat Emptor"
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
You wrote:
His sources are to this day are a fairly well kept secret. There are a couple of people who know some names.


Somehow this revelation does not surprise me in the least, my friend.
Your as yet not atonished friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

A few comments.

Dr. Lyon never met Charles Kenworthy, but they did correspond for a short time. Their letters had nothing to do with treasure signs or symbols. Kenworthy wanted information on a shipwreck in the British West Indies. Dr. Lyon never worked for, or did any research for Charles Kenworthy. You may take that to the bank.

I must conclude that the Jesuits, and especially Father Kino were especially stupid. To illegally mine in New Spain, and then take the gold/silver and place your name on it was suicidal. The Jesuits were very good at raising cattle, and crops. The took the fruits of that labor, pretty much native labor, and sold it to the mine owners. They were paid in gold and silver.

It makes perfect sense that the gold and silver bars/whatever had the name of the person who was going to receive it indelibly marked on the method of payment. Did Father Kino hide some of those payments away, quite possibly. Many church items and other items of value were hidden in times of trouble with the natives.

The Catholic Church is, and was, big on visual extensions of the power of the Church and God. The items you have mentioned were often gifted by wealthy benefactors. Kino writes of one such lady in his diaries. There were many. None of those items translate into Jesuit mines/treasure.

Dr. Lyon has researched this question over the many years he has been an accepted authority. In his qualified opinion, the Jesuits, in the era and places we are interested in, did not engage in mining for themselves or the church.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Furness]

Hi Joe

in reply to your earlier question, no i don't think they were as white as friend Lamar would have us believe,

i do think the majority did a lot of good work with the Indians, but they were a product of their age and also in their thinking with regard to the natives at that time due to their religious beliefs and education,

i accept friend Lamar will defend them and i accept that for the reasons he himself has given on here in other posts and threads,

but none of us are perfect and that goes pretty much for anyone irrespective of their upbringing or beliefs

regards, furness

 

[cactusjumper]

Furness,

Thank you for your reply.

I don't disagree with anything you say. Lamar may paint a rosy picture of the Jesuits in the New World that has some prejudice attached. You should take into account that the man seems to know their history backwards and forwards.

That knowledge did not come overnight, but likely took years to acquire. That puts Lamar one step up on most of the people who are posting here, especially me. While I don't take everything he writes as sacrosanct, I do tend to respect his, obvious, years of research.

Can you give us a few examples of Jesuits gone bad?

Thank you in advance.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Twisted Fork]

It is my somewhat educated experience on these questions that reminds me that the first people to catch wind of the gold mines were the Jesuits know as "The Big Hats" to the Native American tribes. According to Ute legend, they arrived in a considerable amount of time before any of the Conquistadors. The Natives loved and trusted them in the beginning due to their references to the creator and fascinating new language experiences as in French. The Jesuits were not just Spanish, but a combination of sorts in league as a brotherhood. The Kings of their heritage played second fiddle to the Pope, and you can bet that he knew more about the precious metals of the New World, than any political figure anywhere. The Jesuits also developed the map codes and recorded the first routes and travels to the mines.

Being readily experienced in the art of concealing new found church claimed treasures in other lands, and having already established relations with the Chiefs, you can bet that the Native Americans were already warned ahead of time as to what they had coming their way through the Conquistadors. The richest mines of them all have always held the reputation as being Jesuit, and the mystery of their true location survives to this day due to early cooperation with their Native friends, who also believed in the same God and that pure gold was sacred. I'm sure the bunch got together and made the early effort to conceal the best for the church; thus the term "Church Mines." The Jesuits carefully controlled the richest silver mine in the West know as Esmeralda and only God and their ghosts know where she is to this day. Much is the same for all of the other major Mother lodes. They weren't stupid, they were just to smart for the rest of them and died with their God's secrets. The smartest of people soon learn to act stupid in the midsts of heathens least they be murdered.

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
Twisted Fork wrote

It is my somewhat educated experience on these questions that reminds me that the first people to catch wind of the gold mines were the Jesuits know as "The Big Hats" to the Native American tribes. According to Ute legend, they arrived in a considerable amount of time before any of the Conquistadors.

I believe the Ute legends are referring to Franciscan monks, who in fact did explore and proselytize far into the "frontier" ahead of the military/colonial authorities. The Jesuits were (almost) late-comers in this respect. For instance we know that the Espejo expedition of 1582-83 into what is now New Mexico was in search of two Franciscan monks who had ventured out into the "wild Indio" territory and nothing had been heard of; the oldest Spanish missions in Arizona are those of the Franciscans By comparison, the explorations of good Father Kino in the late 1600's (1690's) were nearly a century later. Franciscan Father Juan de Padilla volunteered to remain behind with the Wichita Indians in what is today Kansas during Coronado's expedition 1541-42. Also Theatine monks are known to have been missionaries to the Southern Utes. Anyway I would hesitate to identify the FIRST missionaries to have contact with many of the southwestern tribes to have been Jesuits, though they were first among several tribes elsewhere (including this area where I live.)

Twisted Fork also wrote

The Jesuits were not just Spanish

Correct, many of them were German and also Italian.

Cactusjumper wrote

Can you give us a few examples of Jesuits gone bad?

I realize this question was addressed to our mutual amigo Furness, but haven't we covered this fairly recently, in other threads? The Pima Revolt is a prime period of history to research if you are looking for examples, but there are examples outside of this period as well. If we expand the time and/or region in this question, you can have a heavy amount of reading to cover the examples, especially in modern times. Jesuit priests are after all human beings, which come with inherent flaws and weaknesses.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

[Cactusjumper wrote

Quote
Can you give us a few examples of Jesuits gone bad?

I realize this question was addressed to our mutual amigo Furness, but haven't we covered this fairly recently, in other threads? The Pima Revolt is a prime period of history to research if you are looking for examples, but there are examples outside of this period as well. If we expand the time and/or region in this question, you can have a heavy amount of reading to cover the examples, especially in modern times. Jesuit priests are after all human beings, which come with inherent flaws and weaknesses.]

I am aware of the Jesuit human frailties. You are of course correct in that we are all afflicted. Two books which will give you opposing opinions, as well as facts, are "The Jesuits: History and Legend of the Society of Jesus" by Manfred Barthel and "The Jesuits: The Society of Jesus and the Betrayal of the Roman Catholic Church" by Malachi Martin.

I prefer to keep the discussion focused on the period in question.

I was not asking for reams of references, only a few documented cases would suffice. When people make such broad condemnations of anyone, including the Jesuits, I like to know if they know what they are talking about, or are simply repeating charges they have heard others level.

For instance, do they actually know what caused the Pima revolt, or have they not bothered to search for those historical accounts? Were the Pima's able to lodge complaints against the Jesuits? If so, did it ever happen? Did they lodge complaints against the mine owners? If there were any complaints at all, were they documented?

In order to justify the stories of Jesuit Treasure, the first thing that must be done is to change the image of the Order. What is accepted as good, must be turned into evil, bad, cruel and avaricious. Once you have accepted that premise, it's a small step to believe that the Jesuits made, in some way, the Indians work their mines until they rebelled from the abuse and killed everyone. The fact that after the rebellion, the Pima's returned to the missions seems telling.

In other words, I wonder what level of research needs to be done to reply to these posts. My memory is shot to hell, but I have the reference material at my fingertips. The sources are the best, but will they be believed? After all, they are not treasure hunters......not that there's anything wrong with being a treasure hunter, but they often sacrifice historical fact for what they wish to be fact.

Chuck Kenworthy is a perfect example of that. He created a fictitious story around a prominent historian, and it helped him sell some books. As you have seen, to this day, people will swear that Kenworthy paid Dr. Lyon to search Spanish archives for him. Not a grain of truth to that story.........I am sorry to say.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Lamar,

First, I see that you have sidestepped my question (yet again), to take the path of least resistance. Casting aspersions at a dead man. Congratulations!

As I have stated previously, CK received what information he had at a great expense. Also, had he presented his documents for peer review (so as to satisfy your ilk), there were (and still are) a lot of people who would have done anything to get them. Once something like that comes to light, you can't stuff it back in the box. Once again, CK was not a philanthropist. He spent his money in order to make money. Maybe you would like to contact any of a number of nautical shipwreck researchers that have ongoing projects, and ask them to present their archival findings, so you can feel comfortable that they are the real deal. Yeah, I would like to have a recording of their answer to you.

Maybe you should call Taffi Fisher and ask her just how much of the documentation they received on the Atocha, did they release before they had EVERYTHING sewn up legally and archaeologically? How much do you want to bet I can guess what her answer is? HAHAHA

You see, QUEST is still technically a viable entity. Since Tiger Kenworthy doesn't do much talking to treasure hunters, not very many people know whether or not he still has his associates out hunting in the field. I can guess that if he does still have anything to do with treasure hunting, those documents will not likely see the light of day. As Joe said, his father had an ego, and most treasure hunters would have kept such documents completely secret.

Joe,

I can give you a very good example. If you read the Precepts to the Jesuits that Father Polzer wrote about in his book, you will see that the ones from 1747 are the second set of Precepts that say the same thing as the first. The only difference being they are much more detailed and specific as to what the Jesuit Fathers were and were not allowed to do. The only reason for this is because the Jesuit Fathera were finding the loopholes in the Precepts and exploiting them.

Lets' look at gambling first: The first set of Precepts just said that Jesuits were not allowed to play cards. The Jesuits read this and found the loophole. They would sit behind the actual card players, and tell them what cards to play and what to bet. The second set of Precepts came out and were much more specific as to EXACTLY what the Jesuits were not allowed to do. The story is well documented (even by Father Polzer).

Next, lets' look at mining: The first set of precepts forbade Jesuit Mining. Okay. Taking a glimpse at the previous (gambling) issue, you can see what the ever tricky Jesuits did. They got Jesuit Friendly non Jesuits to put their names on the actual deeds to the mines. That way, the Jesuit Fathers were not actually mining. Then, with the Precepts of 1747 we get:

Rule #4. No one will work mines. This includes the prohibition that no one will have any knowledge about the matter of mining, either directly or indirectly. The intention of the precept is to include all forms of knowledge or interpretations that could even fall within the same precept.

Starting to get the drift?

The Jesuits of the New World did the same thing as most Jews do today. On the Sabbath, ALL Jews are forbidden from operating electrical equipment. There are entire industries built on finding loopholes in the Hebrew Word of God. Like so many of us, the Jews, and Jesuits before them, only adhere to the word of the law and not the spirit.

By the way, where did you read that Kenworthy stated he received his materials from Dr. Eugene Lyon? I have not seen that in print, nor have I heard anybody who was close to him say that. It is possible that I have missed it, or not read a certain book, or not spoken to the right person, but I have yet to see or hear that.

Everybody,

There is one thing that I feel I MUST add here. It is a possibility (however improbable) that Charles Kenworthy was a complete fraud. He lied about the documents he received. He could feasibly have purchased a COUPLE OF THOUSAND POUNDS OF SILVER, and faked ONE THOUSAND AND TWENTY EIGHT silver bars. Went somewhere and purchased a trunkload of the richest gold ore my friend had ever seen, just to show it to one or two people and NEVER publicize it or the silver hoard.

Best-Mike

 

[Twisted Fork]

From what I have read years ago, the Jesuits were hell bent on being a secret society and were always first on the cutting edge of anything important to Satan. Truly a thorn in his side and a prick in his eye. They only saw other forms of church brotherhoods as the competition if not the Devil himself. The history I remember stated that the big hats were French Jesuits and this is why the early Spanish explorers where shocked to find already fluent French speaking Natives when they first arrived. Jesuits have had a reputation of being independent spies, bankers and even assassins and this would easily explain why they so quickly grew in power. They were dismantled out of wide spread fear and the greed of a perverted King. The locations of the real mother lodes died with them and few if any were recovered by the Franciscans. Even the foundations of their coded maps and marker sets were designed around the tarot card and its various old world table arrangements. They were slicker than snot.

 

[gollum]

One more thing I need to add here:

I understand that due to confidences, I can't divulge a lot of things I know. I also understand that it is difficult for anyone who doesn't know me personally to take nothing but my word for something that I say is gospel. I can only do what I can do.

I don't get mad when someone doesn't believe me. I completely understand it. I only get p'ed when it gets personal to me someone who is not here to defend themselves. Lamar, you said several times that you weren't making judgements against Kenworthy, but that is exactly what you were doing in several of your statements about him.

In the years I have been doing this, I have found out that a bunch of people that are very well known were completely full of $hit. Many of the most knowledgeable people I know on this subject are names very few have ever heard of.

Yes, Chuck Kenworthy had his flaws (as all of us do), but there is no argument against his successes. While it is in the realm of possibility that he used his millions of dollars to manufacture his finds, but why? He never included any of them in any of his books. The finds that I know he made were never publicized. The only reason for him to have manufactured those finds would have been to defraud a private investor/buyer. I have never heard of anything like that with his name attached to it. I still hold to my beliefs that I have previously stated.

and in the words of Forrest Gump "That's all I've gotta say about that."

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
You wrote:
I don't get mad when someone doesn't believe me. I completely understand it. I only get p'ed when it gets personal to me someone who is not here to defend themselves

My answer to that statement is:
"Hello pot! Meet Mr. Kettle!" In other words, one should check the condition of their own house before making comments about the houses of others. As I recall, you've been fairly harsh on the Jesuits without them being at liberty to defend themselves, either. Think about it, my friend.

Gambling: You should know that the Roman Catholic church frowns on ALL on all forms of gambling that are not expressly designed for charity. In other words, going to Las Vegas and playing blackjack or craps is considered as sinful, yet buying 10 raffle tickets, the proceeds of which are being used to purchase materials for new church pews, is not. It all depends on form and intent, my friend.

Jesuits were never reputed to have been gamblers. Why that particular precept was installed is beyond me, yet there exists many plausible explanations. Perhaps the Superior General was growing old and a bit senile in his later years? Most likely, someone complained to the Superior General and the Superior General in turn went a bit overboard. I will assume that you were in the military, and life in a Roman Catholic Order is very similiar in that regard, my friend.

I imagine that life in the missions became a bit tedious at times and perhaps some Jesuits managed to get their hands on a deck of cards and were playing whist or whatever in the evenings. The Superior General probably caught wind of it and blew it all out of proportion and hence the precept prohibiting card playing. As I recall, gambling was not mentioned in the precept, nor should it have been necessary as all Roman Catholics were prohibited from wagering.

The prohibition on mining was also most probably a knee-jerk response to queries from the Governor, who was receiving news from the secular colonists that the Jesuits were illegally mining gold & silver. We must always bear in mind that the Jesuits were not on friendly terms with the colonists and they were often accused of being Indian lovers and other such things.

Yes, the Jesuit missions became self-sustaining. Yes, the Jesuit missions became commercially viable and at times, profitable enterprises. Yes, the Jesuits recieved payment in return for the goods the missions provided to the region, the country and the Empire. Yes, the Jesuits grew wealthy from these enterprises, but we must remember this is what they were SUPPOSED to do in the first place.

The King of Spain envisioned a land of loyal and dutiful subjects, striving towards spiritual fulfillment whilst tilling the soil and tending the flocks, in much the same manner as the serfs were doing throughout Western Europe at the time. Yes, it was the feudal system and no, I do not wish to debate the merits and demerits of it, it simply was the was it was back then.

The King of Spain also viewed the Jesuits as a group who could meet those ends and that is why he bade them to colonize and proselytize the Americas. As cohesive individuals, we can see for ourselves the impacts that these highly focused and singularly driven men produced. We can see it in the populations of Northern Mexico and the Southwestern United States, in the successes of the region and in the education of the populaces.

We cannot however, see any of the determental effects of these same Jesuits. We find no vast hidden treasure caches, nor do we find any incriminating physical evidence. You like to point to the splendor of the colonial churches and yet in doing so you tend to show a narrow minded view of Roman Catholicism in general. If you had put in your homework in areas where it would best suited you, then perhaps you would have discovered that the decoration and splendor of churches and cathedrals refers back to some of the earliest Church teachings, which tells us that as Christians, we should show humility and modesty in all things except in the Church, which must be decorated and adorned to the very best of our abilities, as it is the house of God and therefore we must show it the proper respect and adoration which it requires.

The Jesuits were extremely well educated and also very highly skilled men with the additional ability of being able to pass on their knowledge and skills to others, those being the neophytes of their missions. A typical Jesuit mission was a minature typical European village, with all manner of goods and services being provided, from bakeries to carpenters to blacksmiths and so on.

And so, if a colonist needed a animal shod, he took it to the local Jesuit mission and likewise if he required a building to be constructed, he employed stone masons from the local Jesuit mission, just as he would have done back in Europe. As the Jesuits became more successful, their views of a more democratic society were in direct opposition to the colonists, who tended to lean heavily upon the feudal system which ensured a steady and free source of labor.

And yes, the Jesuits collected money from the labors of thier charges, just as they would have done in Europe and yes, their wealth grew in proportion to the success of the individual mission, and yes, the Jesuits turned around and invested the money back into the mission society and used a portion of those funds to establish new missions.

Also, while all of this was going on, it was the Jesuits who stood between the natives and the colonists, sometimes at the cost of their lives. This is highly documented, in various archives throughout the world, my friend. And yes, the Jesuits believed in discipline and yes, some natives were whipped for various transgressions, and yes this was very cruel, much more so than having a victim drawn and quartered or being tied to the wheel of a cart then whipped through town, as our own fun-loving British ancestors were wont to do. Now there was a group who believed in punishment! Yet, oddly enough we never seem to hear anything about that, do we?

You've continually slandered the Jesuits as an organization without so much as the slimmest piece of physical evidence at your disposal, and yet when I question the credibility of a certain person based upon that person's OWN writings, I am supposedly attacking that persons character?
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

We are all expressing our personal beliefs about Chuck Kenworthy here. Much of that is based on the words of people we know, who had some kind of personal, one on one relationship with the man.

There are a number of posts on the LDM Forum dealing with Chuck Kenworthy and Eugene Lyon. Here is one:

[I spent several hours with Chuck Kenworthy over a very extended lunch at the Village Inn Restaurant in Apache Junction on 2/5/95. We discussed the Stone Maps and Chuck said that Eugene Lyon was the researcher that had provided the Spanish records on the King of Spain's rules for coded signs and symbols to be used on maps plus trail markers and monuments. He indicated that he had received copies of this information and not originals. He states this also on Page 15 of his book, "Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow, & Sun Signs".]

The author of that post (Roger) is a friend of mine, as well as many other people who post on these sites, and I believe him completely.

I repeat: "Dr. Lyon never met Charles Kenworthy, but they did correspond for a short time. Their letters had nothing to do with treasure signs or symbols. Kenworthy wanted information on a shipwreck in the British West Indies. Dr. Lyon never worked for, or did any research for Charles Kenworthy. You may take that to the bank."


Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
I fail to understand why our esteemed associate and friend, Gollum, fails to agree with me utterly and completely, and if for any reason he cannot do so, then at the very least he should concede that I am 100% accurate and correct, as always. This should resolve any and all issues quite nicely, past, present and future.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

After many years of following Jesuit treasure tales, it's almost impossible to separate your beliefs from historical reality. I managed to break out of that mind-set, but it took years. Despite the historical records, Mike may be correct. I believe he is posting in good faith that what he is writing is the truth.

"In order to justify the stories of Jesuit Treasure, the first thing that must be done is to change the image of the Order. What is accepted as good, must be turned into evil, bad, cruel and avaricious. Once you have accepted that premise, it's a small step to believe that the Jesuits made, in some way, the Indians work their mines until they rebelled from the abuse and killed everyone. The fact that after the rebellion, the Pima's returned to the missions seems telling."

I think that explains the process of what is required to change the accepted history of the Jesuits, concerning mining, in Mexico, and (partially) how Mike arrived at his conclusions.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
My prior post on this topic was an attempt at humor, albeit dry humor, however I do think that Gollum will understand and get a chuckle out of it.
Your sometimes not ALWAYS serious friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

Dear Lamar,

Having been the recipient, as well as the author, of many such tongue-in-cheek posts, I have been instructed by my wife to include a few s.

Having said that, your post was indeed humorous, while my last post was serious......At least in my mind it was.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Cear cactusjumper;
Gollum and I have reached a sort of mutual understanding years ago. Whenever he is somewhat unsure of a particular detail, he will present his question as an accusation or remark about a particular group, such as the Jesuits or the Templars. For my part, I generally ignore it completely and before long he'll ask me why I've sidestepped the issue. For my part, I generally continue ignoring the question. Sometimes, if I am feeling benevolent I'll actually address the question, in which case Gollum wins the round. Or so I allow him to think.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote

Dear group;
I fail to understand why our esteemed associate and friend, Gollum, fails to agree with me utterly and completely, and if for any reason he cannot do so, then at the very least he should concede that I am 100% accurate and correct, as always. This should resolve any and all issues quite nicely, past, present and future.

And here I was under the clearly mistaken notion that only I was truly 100% accurate and correct, always!

I would rather we not indulge in dredging up the various charges leveled against the Jesuits, as some were very heinous indeed; we would only succeed in inflaming tempers and perhaps leading to deep offences; the members of the Society of Jesus seem to have a long history of being pragmatists, therefore it should not be shocking if some members did not follow the rules to the letter, especially in the face of common usage and/or convenience. No mission could be operated at a loss forever, yet this detail seems to have led to great resentment on the part of many colonists or to be more accurate traders who were doing a business with Indios, whether in furs, slavery etc these folks viewed the successful Jesuit missionaries as something between competitors and a dangerous enemy.

Here is one example of the Jesuits in the New World (admittedly in New France, but of the correct period) which is recorded by a Jesuit and admits of their disobedience of a seemingly important rule.

Now, in regard to this Trading; Your Reverence wrote me and called my attention to the rule of the seventh general Congregation of our Society, which absolutely forbids all kinds of commerce and business, under any pretext whatever. Some others of our Fathers send me word that we must not even look [page 171] at from the corners of our eyes, or touch with the ends of our fingers, the skin of any of these animals, which are of great value here; what can be the cause of this advice? Surely, it cannot be that our Society distrusts those it sends to these regions, in regard to this matter, any more than in a great many others. It seems to me I have heard that, in France, some who do not know us, and do not wish to know us, cry out that our hands are not clean from this traffic. May God bless them and make them understand the truth, as I am about to utter it, when it will conduce to his glory. We cannot expect long to serve the Master we serve, without being slandered. These [175] are his liveries and he himself would not recognize us, so to speak, if we did not wear them.



Now here is what I can write about it, with the same sincerity with which I would some day render an account to God of all my actions. Peltry is not only the best thing and the easiest to make use of in this country, but it is also the coin of the greatest value. And the best of it is that, after it has been used as a covering, it is found to be ready-made gold and silver. You know in France how much consideration is given the style of a gown. Here all there is to do is to cut it out of a Beaver skin, and the Savage woman straightway sews it to her little child with a Moose tendon, with admirable promptness. Whoever wishes to pay in this coin for the goods he buys here, saves thereby the twenty-five per cent that the market price gives them over that in France for the risk they run upon the sea. The day-laborers also would rather receive the wages for their work in this money than in any other. And certainly it seems that commutative justice allows [page 173] that, if what comes [176] to us from France is dearer for having floated over the sea, what we have here is worth something for having been chased in the woods and over the snow, and for being the wealth of the Country; especially as those who are paid with this coin always find therein their reckoning and something more. It is for this reason that the Gentlemen of the Company permit to a -reasonable extent this practice to every one, and do not care whether these skins are used for trade or for protection from the cold,—provided that, in the end, they come back to their storehouse, and do not cross the seas except in their own Ships. In consequence of this, if occasionally one of them gets into our hands, we do not scruple to use it in the way of a purchase, any more than we would as a covering for the little Savages who cause us expense,—or to make for ourselves shoes from the skins of Moose, that we may walk upon our snowshoes, for which the common ones are of no use whatever, because they are so hard. Such is here the custom of both the French and the Barbarians. We send also some old Elk skins to our Fathers who are among the Hurons, and some Porcelain, [177] when we have any; it is the best part of their money, and with it they pay for their frugal provisions of Indian corn and smoked fish, as also for the materials and making of their bark Palaces. This, in truth, is all the profit we derive here from Peltries and other rare things of the Country,—all the use that we make of them. If it is dispassionately believed that there is some kind of traffic, or even if Your Reverence deems it best to drop all this, in order not to offend any one, we are all ready to give it up entirely.

<from The Jesuit Relations and Allied Documents, Relation de ce qui s'est passé en la Novvelle France, en l'année 1636. [Chapters iii.-xi., completing Part 1. of the document.] Paul leJeune; Kébec, August 28, 1636 pp 174-175>

We might well note that the author even offers to quit the small amount of fur trade they were ingaged in, if it is deemed best. We know that the Jesuits did keep slaves, as some`120 were turned over on the expulsion of the Jesuits from French Louisiana Territory and that the Jesuits of Maryland were the largest slaveowners there, by admission of a Jesuit university. In the Pima revolt, several of the Jesuit fathers were at least seen by the Indios as guilty of offences. I know we have covered this in some detail before, but here is one example,

The same Joseph of Tubac who had suffered the lashes of Father Joseph Garrucho's juryless justice for leaving Tubac without leave to accompany Captain-General Luís to fight Apaches and Seris was apparently one of the prime movers in the revolt (Buptucquim, Tubaasan, Tuthuburi & Siarisan, Feb. 23, 1752:116v), as might have been expected of a stalwart warrior who had been so grievously wronged.

<http://parentseyes.arizona.edu/tubac/cpt5-A.htm>

This summary beating is well within the "norms" of the period, but as viewed through Indio eyes was insult of the highest order.
Oroblanco