The Peralta Stones

[lamar]

Dear ghost dog;
Those stone maps are modern. The evidence is plainly in favor of this proclamation, and while I am NOT stating that they do not lead to the LDM, or anywhere else for that matter, there are not representitive of an old set of stone carvings. I've placed the time of the stone carvings to be somewhere around the 1930s, and carved by a person with a very poor knowledge of the Spanish language, Spanish writing style and Spanish art depictions.

For one example, we can study the numbers carved upon one of the stones. The numerals 1, 2, 3 and 7 are plainly American and not Spanish or Mexican. The numeral 1 is always represented as looking very similiar to a long upside-down V, so as not to confuse the numeral with the lower case letter L. The numeral 2 is not stylized as it would be in either the Spanish or Mexican style. The numeral 3 should have the lower portion substantially larger than the upper portion, so as not to confuse it with the numeral 2 and the 7 always has a crossbar between the bottom and top of the upright leg, so as not to confuse it with the numeral 1.

Again, this is not to state that the stone maps do not represent the path to the LDM, merely that they are modern carvings and as such, your view of the maps should be based upon this knowledge. For all anyone knows, the maps could very possibly be leading the way towards an entirely different treasure cache.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

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[gollum]

Ghostly,

Google "Latin Crosses". They are two crosses and a heart that also fits the heart hole in the stone maps. A lot of people claim they are fakes, but the guy that found them swears they are authentic.

As a matter of fact, read this article by Jim Hatt:

http://www.desertusa.com/ldm-1/peralta.html

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

The guy who found the Stone Crosses was Michael Bilbrey. He also found a cure for cancer, which he promptly sold to many desperate people. If Jim Hatt wants to believe in the credibility, reliability and basic honesty of such a person, it is his reputation that is being tied to Bilbrey's.

That's nothing against Jim Hatt, as many people believed Bilbrey. I, obviously, am not one of them.

Michael Bilbrey spent his time in prison for selling his snake oil. You may choose to believe him or not on the Stone Crosses. I can tell you that he has tried to raise money with them on a number of occasions, the last that I heard of was up in Holbrook.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Would you consider Peoria to qualify as a "treasure"?
Oroblanco

Well, ok you got me there

 

[Twisted Fork]

Mr. Fork,

Very well done indeed. On the other hand, you have left out the single most important factor in the entire puzzle.

What of the solar azimuth angle of the shadow created by the infield apex as it falls across that very same cactus at 4:00 on August 14th.? Without that calculation, you end up in.........Peoria.

Nice post!

Joe

One must pay attention here, You shoot a compass quad from the single cactus to find the funnel, the shadow only falls on the cache which is a little funnel full of gold taken from the big funnel. It is a mock up in short range, as to how to find the Dutchman at long range. A right angle separates them. The big knife barrel cactus is the axle of the clock. The long hand is on 23 minutes before 11. The short hand is centered on 11. This is your right angle sir, so you see you really don't even need the shadow.

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote

Dear ghost dog;
Those stone maps are modern. The evidence is plainly in favor of this proclamation

Wow this is getting scary, when I find my self in total agreement with you again and again. Lamar you are not a simple man, are you? These danged Peralta Stones have been the source of much disagreement and little in the way of treasures. If we can tie Harry LaFrance and his cave of gold bars to them, then that makes ONE treasure. We have several good suspects for whom created them, and virtually no record of any ancient origins. Where, we might ask, is there any mention found in any of the Peralta (or Gonzales, Parillo, etc) stories of any of them ever having made or having possession of any stone maps? I know plenty of folks disagree with Lamar and myself on whether these are genuine OLD treasure maps, but everything about them is wrong. If this were an antique we would be laughed out of the experts shop for its flaws. When we are examining stone inscriptions, symbols petroglyphs and so forth, if it looks WRONG it is generally wrong. I have posted much on this before, but as Lamar has pointed out with the numerals, the inscription looks NOTHING like any truly OLD Spanish or Mexican inscription. If you want to see what the real thing looks like there are good photos online. We treasure hunters are sometimes guilty of seeing what we WANT to see.

All that said, it is still possible that they may well lead to treasure(s) or mines. The treasure might be something very different from gold bars or chests of coins, but very valuable nevertheless. I just cannot accept that these are any older than the 20th century, and believe that they are intended to LOOK like they date to 1847.


Cubfan wrote

Well, ok you got me there

Hey buddy I had not pulled your leg in quite some time, thought that was a perfect opportunity!

Mike my apologies for posting such a negative reply here in your thread, where I promised not to post such. I will refrain from doing it again
Oroblanco

 

[Twisted Fork]

Follow the Ghosts of the Horse Soldier, they know of her where abouts and why.

 

[ghostdog]

Hi All and to all, In responding to replys to my last post , I have done research on the Peralta stones, and I believe,the stones in topic #438 this thread are the real deal. True the date 1847 is not 1647,and more post modern. I think there are more inscribed stones yet to be uncovered that will put together a full map. The fact that some were sold for $100.00 does not make them snake oil. Its possible the inscribtions on the stones were copied from other imformation at a latter date{copyright?1847?,and thus the modern writeing} Anyways thats my take on these interesting stones.

 

[Twisted Fork]

Dead men tell no tales, but stone tablets do. Their whole world lays there before you.

 

[Springfield]

..... We treasure hunters are sometimes guilty of seeing what we WANT to see .....

For truth-seekers, this realization is usually a long process. Many never get it.

 

[Cubfan64]

..... We treasure hunters are sometimes guilty of seeing what we WANT to see .....

For truth-seekers, this realization is usually a long process. Many never get it.

Both of those are two of the most well spoken truths in regards to treasure hunting

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
Please forgive my delayed reply to your question, my friend. It seems that with the sudden flurry of activity on this particular thread, I must have overlooked your question. Once more please excuse my faux pas.

Yes indeed. What I find most curious is that case of Vinland. Our experts and historians state flatly that it was a very short lived-colony, which lasted a few years at most. (Nine years max viz Diamond's Collapse) so if it was discovered around the year 1000 or 1002, why should the Church have dispatched a Bishop to visit the colony over 100 years later in 1117 AD? Why too would the Church then assign a Bishop to that same supposedly long-abandoned colony a short three years later (1120 AD) who is said to arrive there a year later? (Eirik Upse) This simply doesn't make sense, if it were truly an abandoned colony in a matter of a few years, as our historians claim - at least in my opinion. How can this be reconciled? Are we to assume that the Church made a foolish error sending a Bishop to Vinland in 1117, then an even larger mistake by assigning a Bishop to head the empty colony a few years later? What do you think? Thank you in advance.

The answer to the question lies in the hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church during the era in question and it started with the Bishop St. Ansgar. On order to fully understand the situation, we must realize that Northern Europe was sparsely populated and even somehwat uninhabited in some of the more remote areas. Also, pagan beliefs were rife amongst the Northern Europeans and Christianity teetered on the brink of oblivion in the face of the traditional heathen beliefs. In the midst of all of this, Christianity suffered debilitating blows with each succeeding generation and many Christians were returning to paganism, at least in a partial context.

St. Ansgar (or Oscar, in English) was born in 801 AD in modern day Denmark and was schooled at the famous Benedictine monastery, Corbie Abbey in Corbie, Picardy, France. During St. Ansgar's formative year, the Roman Catholic Church concentrated on converting Saxony (now a part of Northern Germany) to Christianity. Once paganism was eliminated in the Saxony region, the focus of the Church turned to Jutland (now modern day Denmark). Young St. Ansgar was sent to Westphalia, along with several other monks, with the purpose of establishing a mission there and converting the pagans.

This particular mission was spearheaded by none other than the famous Frank King, Charlemagne and it was from this noble king that the Westphalian mission of St. Ansgar recieved unlimited support from the secular invaders, which included political, financial military and manpower resources.

After St. Ansgar converted the whole of Saxony to Christianity, he was sent by Louis the Pious, son and successor to the throne of Charlemagne, to convert the unruly Swedish pagans. St. Ansgar proceeded to Birka with his assistant, the friar Witmar and converted heathens to Christianity for about 6 months, when he was summoned back to Louis' court at Worms, where he was appointed as Bishop over the Archbishoporic of Hamberg.

He was consecrated a Bishop in 831 AD and received the Pallium from the hands of Pope Gregory IV. Part of his mission was to convert the Northern barbarians to Christianity, and in light of this, the official title of the Archbishoporic was "The mission to bring Christianity to the North" with St. Ansgar as it's head.

He was the Bishop of Hamburg until 845AD when the Danes sacked Hamburg, after which the Church decided that the Archbishoporic was unrestorable and they therefore combined it with the Archbishoporic of Bremen. This union was approved by the Papal See in 864 AD.

This is all well and good, however it does little to answer your question, however what DOES answer your question is the fact that the Northern Missions included that elusive country known only as Vinland. The earliest that Vinland was recorded was in 1075AD by Adam of Bremen and he was tasked with recording the mission of the North. His definitive body of work, Gesta Hammaburgensis Ecclesiae Pontificum (The Deeds of Bishops of the Hamburg Church) was completed around 1075 AD and so scholars give this date as the first time Vinland was mentioned in text.

The fact, however is that Adam of Bremen had access to the entire library of Bremen and as such, he recorded events and place names from much earlier times and it would seem that the area known as Vinland was known to exist at least as early as the 8th century AD and possibly longer.

Seeing as how Vinland fell under the mission of the Archbishoporic of Hamberg, and later the Archbishoporic of Hamberg-Bremen, it only stands to reason that there was always a Bishop appointed to that region, even though the area may have been known to exist only on paper.

The existence of the area known as Vinland is not in dispute as it's supposed presence in well known, yet the actual location of Vinland has been disputed for decades. If one were to believe that the Vinland Map were genuine, then Vinland would undisputedly be modern day Greenland.

There is another, more secretive reason, for the designation of little known, or unknown areas as parts of dioceses in the Church. It seems that Church officials noted that a person tended to revert back to pagan beliefs and worship if they were left to their own devices and even more so the further they strayed from the altars of Christ. With the appointment of clergy to all areas, whether known or unknown, settled or not, this gave the impression that even though a person may have been far away from the church, the presence of God was always nearby.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
To continue on the discussion of the Peralta Stones, if they are copies of an even older set of stones, then the person who copied tham must have committed the same grammarical errors as the person who carved the originals stones. The grammarical mistakes tell me that the persons who carved the stones was:
1) Not a native Spanish speaker, or even a semi-native Spanish speaker
2) Was educated in US schools
3) Did not grasp the intricate workings of the masculine-feminine words forms common throughout many European derived languages
4) Tended to spell words phonically instead of gramatically
5) Used a modern text style
6) Used a modern caricature style
7) Used incorrect Latin text and place names (this is on the stones which were supposedly discovered later)
8) Did not have a firm grasp of Spanish lexigraphy or symbolistic renderings
9) Had a passing knowledge of, or was advised by, someone who spoke at least fairly passable *Spanglish*
10) Utilized modern instruments and purposely chose a stone material which was easy to carve.

Once again, this is not to state that the person who carved the stones meant to deceive others, as there always exists the possiblity that the carver was attempting to lead the finder of the stone carvings to a different treasure or area.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Buenas dias mi esteemed amigo Lamar: What you have posted is even more in line with the 1800's period of the Land grab attempt than ever. Just a failed attempt due to timing and the actual finding.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Cubfan64]

Lamar and Don Jose:
Although I gather that some may suspect that a certain James Addison Reavis was the creator of the "Stone Maps",and have their reasons for that conclusion,I,myself,have found that the evidence seems to point elsewhere.As far as I have been able to ascertain,Mr.Reavis was considered a bit of an expert in the creation of old spanish documents and,I believe,could have created something far more plausible and supportive of his claims if he were responsible for the fabrication of the stones.
http://wesclark.com/jw/baron_az.html
As for the other Reavis---Elisha Marcus---I can imagine no motive.In fact I doub't that Elisha would have wanted the place to be overrun with treasure hunters.Then again,maybe he wanted the target practice...
My own theory that DeGrazia may have been the maker is based on several characteristics common to the stones,and to DeGrazia's works,as well as a number of things that I have found and photographed out there.One such clue,perhaps,is the presence of a number of charcoal sketches on the wall of a small shelter,once described as having been created with "campfire chalk".I'm pretty sure,though,that the were instead marked with a product known as "artist's charcoal",a rusty tin containing stubs of same being present at the time,still bearing the Tucson supplier's label.One member of this site has visited,but must have overlooked the tin box at the location.Another clue is a rock with nails and their arrangement,which is duplicated on two of the stones.More of these "markers" can be found elsewhere,undoubtedly driven by the same person.A "little dipper" arrangement of low stone walls matches a symbol on the map stone as well.

Regards:SH

Hi SH - you and CactusJumper share a hypothesis concerning Mr. DeGrazia's possible place in the Stone Maps history. You guys might want to share a few things in private and see if you can link your ideas together for even further proof.

I've seen Joe's maps and heard some of his theories, and while I can't say for certain that he's correct, there's quite a bit of circumstantial evidence on his side. I'm just not versed enough in the Stone Maps or even the mountains themselves yet to see everything Joe has shown on his maps, but I do think his theories are more than reasonable.

I'd love to hear the conclusions you guys come up with if you get your heads together on this!

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

I have left that bit of research behind me. Unfortunately, it was taking me to a place I didn't want to be. I have always looked for the truth, and let the chips fall where they may, but have decided to let others look for this particular set of answers/truths.

I have posted my conclusions and reasoning a number of times, but find myself getting tired of turning over that last rock. If SH, or you, want to pursue the creator of the Stone Maps, I wish you good luck and good hunting.

I am more than willing, at this point, to accept whatever evidence Azmula presents as gospel. The Stone Maps are a wonderful story.......no matter who's telling it.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Hi Joe - not sure I understand what you mean about that part of your research taking you places you didn't want to be, but I certainly can respect it.

I really don't have a "horse in the race" so to speak regarding the Stone Maps - the interpretation and provenance of them just seems to be too convoluted for me to get that interested. Perhaps if I lived in the area and could spend much more time in the mountains I'd find myself looking at them more closely.

We'll have to see what Azmula puts together regarding the "author(s)" and history of the stones early next year. I believe he has some excellent connections down in Mexico and has spent a very long time researching them - it'll be interesting to hear his conclusions and see if his evidence is enough to convince me that he really does have the "truth."

Maybe we can talk more about this stuff at the rendezvous. I've been trying to put together a list of things I want to do, and sadly I have at least 3 weeks worth of hiking and exploring and only 1 week to do it in - will just have to set some of it aside for another time yet again .

 

[Twisted Fork]

The misspellings are intentional to make for a game of slang charades, slowly painting the true picture in one's mind. One is supposed to instinctively head in the direction of mineral sign and a water way is first on the list. It also helps to follow the dowsing instructions included.

 

[cactusjumper]

Paul,

I look forward to explaining it to you at the Rendezvous. Hope all is well back there.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Fork,

"It also helps to follow the dowsing instructions included."

Could you explain what the "dowsing instructions" are?

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo