The Peralta Stones

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good evening my friends: k will start with -->

I was merely joking in mentioning Lamar, he is completely innocent of the suggested remarks. he he he appology Lamar. A routine idle time scan always restarts the computer after, and in doing so I lost my beautiful post, snifff.
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Oro you posted -->

I would like to you explain why this site is identified with Cibola, if you have time?
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I always have time for you ORO. Simply because they covered their homes with iron pyrites, which is known as fools gold. There were also 7 pueblos in the valley complex, and they had an enormous amount of figurines and statues of Buffalo. In every respect, they fit the description in every way, except for the Gold.

The valley is rather isolated in a very rugged section of the country. Easily bypassed in the past.
Most have no idea just how broken up and rugged the Mt range country of Mexico is. It is said that when Cortez was explaining to the King about Mexico, he was quiet for a moment, then took a piece of parchment, crumpled it up into a very small piece, then opened it up and spread it in front of the king saying "that is Mexico Sire". A very accurate description.

Esteban just happened to pass by and saw them glittering in the sun, so his story wasn't a complete fabrication, however, it did set off the massive search for them since they did fit the legendary lost cities.. Unfortunately they all bypassed it and went far, far, to the North. as we now know, even Estaban on his return. After due research, the United Nations is seriously considering them as a world heritage. They were instrumental in accelerating the exploration of North America.
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You also posted -->

Under this Pre-emption law, I believe there was also a requirement for the claimant to have made certain improvements upon the land so claimed, including but not limited to a water source
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ORO, under the Spanish/Mexican law just grazing your animals on the land is possibly enough. Naturally a home is a far stronger factor.
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Question, was the American Bison known in the old country prior to Americas last discovery ?? How did the Siete ciudades de Cibola - the seven cities of the Buffalo get started if there was no knowledge of Cibalo / Buffalo then? To whom do we owe the first knowledge of them which means that America was visited long before 1492 , possibly even earlier than the vikings and IRISH? Hmm where did the Blue eyed Mayos of Sonora, Mexico originate?

ROY, you do have blue eyes no? Nah, sorry, there can't be any connection since they predate you, stilll??

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

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[gollum]

Lamar,

My friend, I think you are using World History Book ver. 0.2. We are currently on ver. 7.0. HAHAHA. It is now generally accepted fact that Leif Ericson discovered America in 1001 CE when he founded the settlement of Vinland (Newfoundland). It is even possible (though unproven) that his father (Eric the Red) may have visited this same area earlier than that.

Best-Mike

 

[Twisted Fork]

Some of the oldest mummies in the West have red hair and are as tall as ball players.

 

[lamar]

Dear gollum;
Yes, it's been firmly established that the Norse were early explorers of the Western hemisphere and that they most likely set foot upon North America proper at some point in time preceeding Columbus' discovery, however Columbus remains the first documented discovery, therefore this is the discovery that most scholars use. Seeing as how the norse were not profilic writers, we cannot credit them with the discovery of the New World, nor did they leave behind a vast amount of historical evidence.

We cannot even properly credit Leif Ericson with the discovery and settling of L'Anse aux Meadows in Newfoundland, due to the conflicting physical evidence which has thus far been uncovered. It seems the settlement in question was founded by an as yet almost unknown culture, known as the Dorset people, which precceded the Norse by at least 200 years. The odd thing about the Dorsets is that they may, or may not, have been influenced from the people of the European mainland.

During the late Dorset period, several artifacts have been uncovered which show a distinct northern European influence, which may, or may not, be coincidental, however it is believed by some that a group of European explorers may have arrived in the upper Atlantic region of North America some two to three hundred years prior to Leif Ericson.

Also, no one can postively identify the L'Anse aux Meadows settlement as being the same settlement that's described in the Norse Icelandic sagas, Grœnlendinga (the sage of the Greenlanders) and Eiríks saga rauða (the saga of Erik the Red) both of which relate that Leif Ericson was the son of Erik the Red.

Above and beyond all of this conjecture, we are still faced with the reality that no written evidence exists which depicts the Norse as having set foot upon North America proper, therefore the person most often credited with the discovery of the New World remains Christopher Columbus.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Real de Tayopa;
The earliest version of the tale of Cibola refers to a single Bishop as having fled the Moorish onslaught from Merida. As time passed, the one Bishop grew into multiple priests, Bishops, and even a king or two, until there existed seven different Bishops, which each one having established His own city in an unknown land far to the West.

The word *Cibola* was intrepreted by the Spaniards as a vague(very vague, as it turned out) area in what is believed to be modern-day Northern New Mexico. The natives seemed to describe to the Spaniards a great treasure which lay to the North known as Cibola. To the Spaniards this could only mean a city of gold, whereas to the natives it meant another type of entirely different treasure, the vast buffalo herds, which the natives owed their existence to.

This may very well be the reason why the natives seemed to have been leading the Spaniards in a huge random circular pattern. The Spanish thought they were searching for an immovable object, whereas the natives assumed that the Spaniards were trying to find the buffalo herds, which followed a North/South annual migration route.

Before the arrival of the Conquistadores, the word or name Cibola did not exist in the Spanish lexicon. Prior to having been called Cibola, the fabulous golden city was known by the Spaniards as Quivira.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
I believe the first Bishop of Vinland was named Eirik. Most of the earliest Bishops of the Icelandic settlements were descended from a man called Thorfinn Karlsefni and his wife, Gudrid. It is unknown whether Eirik was the offspring of Thorfinn Karlsefni, however there is some evidence which suggests a possible relationship.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Twisted Fork]

Boxed in with a slant between two markers combined, I think you'll find that the tablets and their witch priest, concentrate on an area between these two river points. The large sweeping "S" in the river and the hood shaped turn farther East. "Black Mountain" topo center (south east of the "S") represents the two topo rings one within the other, carved in between the number group, on the second tablet face.

 

[Twisted Fork]

Topo Reference 1........

 

[Twisted Fork]

Topo Reference 2........

 

[Twisted Fork]

Tablet Face 2........Topo Rings, Hat Peak

 

[Twisted Fork]

Further Reference........"A Man of the Cloth," "1 of 6 Soul Survivors," "All Hands Lost" Topo Rings again. "On the Trail from the Heart"

 

[gollum]

Twisted,

I wouldn't put too much effort into connecting the maps with the circle-in-circle symbol. That symbol is part of the mathematical equation. All the figures in that equation were added to the stone maps at some date later than their original manufacture. Probably by a different cutter even. There are several markings on the stone maps that are carved shallower than the original carvings.

There are actually a few places on the stone maps that contain equations that are likely encoded trails. One of the equations is sanded almost completely off. This may have happened due to weathering or by a previous owner (either Tumlinson or Mitchell) not wanting anyone else to have all the info.

A good friend has a set of castings, and the equations are visible if lighted correctly.

Best-Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Good morning Ladies & Gentlemen: Briefly going back to The 'Grand Quivera / Siete ciudades de Cibola'. I believe that Cortez's conquering of Mexico was a situation made to order to utilize this old legend for stimulating exploration into vast unknown regions against fierce Indian tribes at minimal expense to the Crown.

The critical icing in the cake of history was Esteban's discovery of the actual Siete Ciudads of Cibola in Sinaloa, however he apparently never set foot inside of them, for what reason, we will never know. However his description fit the original story so well that it set off waves of exploration parties, both legal and illegal. They are being given credit for the actual exploration movement, so historically, they are very important.

By itself, the original legend could never have done this, just as the conquest of Mexico would never have occurred as it did, without the physical presence of Gold..

The factor that favors the Pueblos in Sinaloa as being the critical ones for nortern explorations is that they were physically seen, and did fit the description almost exactly. None of the others come close.

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s. The modern day Gold rushes are good examples of the effectiveness of this factor.

p.p.s. Look at what the Peralta (?) stones have accomplished in a far smaller scale.

 

[Springfield]

..... There is a site in AZ right on the border with NM which "fits" the descriptions given by Coronado perfectly, though they are in ruins/abandoned today, and the site you are proposing seems to be very much too far south to fit with Coronado's timeline of his march north. Thank you in advance. Oroblanco

Presumably you are referring to the Big Lue Mountains near N33deg02'48", W109deg01'35" - an interesting area for sure and near the site of a recent massive search and rescue mission to locate a lost "Lost Adams Diggings" pilgrim. Easy to get lost in those canyons, I guess.

However, regarding the "Cibola" legends, it is known that Estevanico left a crude carving of his name near the Frying Pan Canyon pictographs (extremely interesting carvings, structures and legends there, by the way) near N32deg27', W107deg41', and, presumably, the carved cross taller than a man found on the escarpment just east of the Kneeling Nun landmark near N32deg46', W108deg,03' (very close to the famous "Map Cave" pictographs and other carvings at about N32deg44', W108deg0'). It all leads the way to the mountain known as Santo Nino de Atocha, aka Monte Christo, aka "____" on today's maps in the Pinos Altos Range. This is where Estevanico took the Franciscan Marcos de Niza in 1539. This is the site of the cavern filled with wire gold a foot in diameter. This is the site of a "harvest" led by a "Royal Engineer/mapper", carried out by German miners and protected by "European soldiers" ca mid-1500's.

As far as Marcos de Niza is concerned, for reasons having to due with either a conflict in loyalties (the "harvest"), or to avoid witnessing another Peru, or both, Marcos led the idiot Coronado to Zuni in 1541 (oops - wrong turn off the Gila River at the Rio San Francisco!) and returned to Mexico "in shame" while the Expedition wandered all the way to Kansas and back empty-handed. Is this gold-laced cavern "Cibola"? Maybe. Might be "Chicomoztoc" too. Of course, I could be mistaken.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

good morning my Friends: Twisted, a question, what does the large hole in the stone represent? as for the smaller ones on the river' they are obviously placer occurrences since most are where a river placer would occur and their feeds. As for the very small one at the right, bottom I have my own ideas, but I have yet to hear of an explanaton.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Twisted Fork]

"Pit Mine"

"Black Mountain" is also the Natives "Horse Pizzel" and topo ring off from the Rio. Imitation rock monuments are pictured closer the the water and or two flat topped buttes.

As masculine dominance was always in the forefront back in the day, with such macho art, one must ask "Wheres the Horse's Pizzle" ?

3 mines to the E. Shackle the burros where the Rio sweeps as the horse's "tale." "I pasture to the North of the " R10 = Veer right 1 degree from the alignment of each infield triangle, to pin point each mine. The triangle with the 5 in the middle of it refers to the month of the Witch's Equinox. The caches from each mine are revealed by Apex shadow cast on this day. A-PAX

Notice the pock mark above the rock pick shaped "T" in the group DE SANTA FE; compare it to the mark where the missing pizzle should be. The double LL above the rock pick shape "T" represents two barrel cactus. You looking at some variation to the Gun sight Mine one in the same. Does the pizzle not resemble a guns front site? If a canon was fired systematically from "Black Mountain" it would eventually land a "Round" around a "Round Pit" Every thing is a reflection of a reflection until the image comes into view.

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Lamar wrote

I believe the first Bishop of Vinland was named Eirik.

THANK YOU amigo I could NOT recall the name, and now with a name to search, just checked that (google) you are absolutely correct! Thorfinn Karlsefni is the person named in the Icelander's Saga as the "discoverer" of America too, (if memory serves) in conflict with Leif Eriksson's claim. I can not get at my own books (yet) but can see them in the front of the moving truck, which drives me crazy sometimes.

I have to ask you one more question too - you wrote

As a point of fact, there has never been a cathedral or basilica in Merida, which is necessary if one wishes for the community to be the seat of a Roman Catholic Bishop

you mentioned that a bishop is never appointed by the church unless there is a basilica or cathedral, correct? Do you know when this requirement came into effect? Thank you in advance. <Not trying to "trick" you here, just did not know this tidbit you mentioned.>

Real de Tayopa wrote

ROY, you do have blue eyes no?

Not exactly, more green - however on certain days they do look blue, brown, grey and other colors. Depends on the light and backgrounds.

Springfield wrote

Presumably you are referring to the Big Lue Mountains near N33deg02'48", W109deg01'35"

You are correct amigo, as usual!

Oroblanco

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Many of the children in MY extended family have blue/green eyes, mostly starting out with blonde hair until they were in their late teens +, then turning darker. (different part of Spain)

B

 

[lamar]

Dear mrs.oroblanco;
My father, who is from the Northern part of Spain, was born with the blondest hair and blue eyes. When he was 12 his hair turned from white blonde to coal black and it remained that way till his passing. My mom, also from the same region of Spain as my dad, started out life with light red hair, then hers turned to brunette by the time she was in her late teens. It's a very common occurrance for that part of Europe.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[lamar]

Dear Oroblanco;
Having a cathedral or basilica as the seat of a Bishop is not a requirement, per se, rather, it started out as a trend around the 5th century AD in the East. With the increased number of Christians in both the East and West, the diocesial system of governance became the norm and as the various dioceses grew, so did the need for basilicas and cathedrals. Cathedrals are simply churches, usually built on a grand scale, and almost always follow a certain floorplan, but once again, this is not always the case. There exists many churches which are in fact larger, grander and/or more oppulent than their cathedral counterparts in the same diocese.

It has become a tradition for Bishops to use diocesial cathedrals as the Office of His Diocese, but once again, this is strictly a tradition and is by no means a hard and fast requirement. A Bishop may control a diocese without a cathedral or basilica being present, but this is not typical. On the opposite tack, a cathedral or basilica will always have an appointed Bishop of some sort as the diocesial leader, unless the seat is vacant at the time and is awaiting an appointment from Rome, in which case the Office will be manned and maintained by a senior priest and usually that is someone who is in line for a Bishoporic.
Your friend;
LAMAR